Gender skins

[SilentMobius 5,315]

15 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Can express but does not inherently own/relate to

Express is all that's needed.

Warframes express a gender due to having a template biological sex. That what DE told us, end of list. Anything else is waffle and unrelated to the game.

To the point of spending extra time to adapt the androform Nemesis mesh to the gynoform Nyx warframe when they didn't need to.

That is why DE haven't and don't want to play with this, and why time after time after time these thread get closed with a firm "no"

[Proslackernifty 188]

I hope this never happens.

[Cubewano 4,841]

7 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Express is all that's needed.

Warframes express a gender due to having a template biological sex. That what DE told us, end of list. Anything else is waffle and unrelated to the game.

To the point of spending extra time to adapt the androform Nemesis mesh to the gynoform Nyx warframe when they didn't need to.

That is why DE haven't and don't want to play with this, and why time after time after time these thread get closed with a firm "no"

Not really, any frame can express any behavior, and do, that isn't a restriction/limiter by itself. 

Biology and gender are two separate things, thought I'd hazard to say frames have neither. They appear feminine and masculine because that how they Orokin shaped them after the infestation process, but outside that there is no reason to assume they have remotely human physiology, in fact it is stated quite frequently they do not and that the process to become a Warframe is a truly extremely physically altering process. Then of course since they don't have individuality/thought they naturally cannot possess a gender identity. The reason we (and DE) refer to frames as male and female is simply because its far more simple and easily understandable (and spoiler free) labeling than going into a excerpt every time a frame is mentioned explaining their full circumstances and the technicalities of it all. 

?

Unless you are DE you don't get to make that statement for them, they have spoken maybe twice on the matter over the years, and only to the extent of letting us know they wanted this to be a thing initially but had to sacrifice it due to limited resources, and that they hadn't pursued it since because they weren't sure it'd be more worthwhile than an entirely new frame. Anything further is your personal fiction lest you have a secret to share. 

[Cubewano 4,841]

1 hour ago, Proslackernifty said:

I hope this never happens.

Why not?

[(PS4)Kakurine2 433]

De was originally going to have frames have genderswaps.

Nyx was originally the female excalibur. But they scraped it because it would be to reaource costly.

So de will probably never do it.

But in my opinion why not make it similar to tennogen and turn it over to the community to do most of the labor.

Grab the most popular tennogen people that de can trust and let them do the majority of the work to genderswap all the frames with a skin.  De can just sit and watch the tennogen artist to make sure they don't do something criminal.

After the community does most of the grunt work de can fine tune it.  Then they sell it just like tennogen and make a profit.

The artist get a slightly larger slice of pie.  As de pays the tennogen people a share of the sales currently.

Players benefit, artists make money, de makes money.

And de gets very cheap labor to boot.

I have said this on other threads.

[JackHargreav 2,603]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

De was originally going to have frames have genderswaps.

Nyx was originally the female excalibur. But they scraped it because it would be to reaource costly.

So de will probably never do it.

But in my opinion why not make it similar to tennogen and turn it over to the community to do most of the labor.

Grab the most popular tennogen people that de can trust and let them do the majority of the work to genderswap all the frames with a skin.  De can just sit and watch the tennogen artist to make sure they don't do something criminal.

After the community does most of the grunt work de can fine tune it.  Then they sell it just like tennogen and make a profit.

The artist get a slightly larger slice of pie.  As de pays the tennogen people a share of the sales currently.

Players benefit, artists make money, de makes money.

And de gets very cheap labor to boot.

I have said this on other threads.

It's either not that simple or they just don't want to do it.

We can talk about all sort of stuff like it would make money and would be easy but it all depends on devs. If they want it they will do it if not everything stays the same.

It doesn't matter much honestly.

[(PS4)Kakurine2 433]

54 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

It's either not that simple or they just don't want to do it.

We can talk about all sort of stuff like it would make money and would be easy but it all depends on devs. If they want it they will do it if not everything stays the same.

It doesn't matter much honestly.

Thats true.

Its really up to the devs to decide. But people will keep talking and asking either way.

De could easily make profits by working outside the box.

Look at the older elder scrolls and fallout games.  An every growing pool of mods created by players for players years after the fact.

So long as people want something and learn computer code they will make it so.

[Katinka 6,139]

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

That is why DE haven't and don't want to play with this, and why time after time after time these thread get closed with a firm "no"

Then why was the last response on a devstream a maybe?

[Oreades 6,732]

2 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Then why was the last response on a devstream a maybe?

Probably because they're running out of ideas for new frames and have come to the conclusion that even tho it's a lot of mesh work it's easier than implementing a whole new frame. 

Plus we are in a political climate where not always entertaining every possible gender option at all times is considered "bad form" so even if they don't intend to ever implement it a maybe is optically better for the company than a hard no. 

[(PS4)Kakurine2 433]

It would be fun i think to have a genderswap skin for each frame.

We can already slap different animation sets on them already.

Make it a tennogen thing like I've said before.

[(XB1)RevenantRequiem 584]

On 2019-09-06 at 4:53 PM, (PS4)joey_a21 said:

Hi everyone I just wanna throw an idea in out there would it be cool if we had gender skins for frames? Like atlas (male) have a female skin or saryn(female)  have a male skin. Like I said it's an idea 

Two letters: N and O.

Put them together and what do they form?

NO!

[Katinka 6,139]

8 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Probably because they're running out of ideas for new frames and have come to the conclusion that even tho it's a lot of mesh work it's easier than implementing a whole new frame.

DE will always have a commitment to adding new frames because they need new frames to have new Primes and Prime Access is one of their main revenue sources so I doubt it's anything to do with a lack of ideas.  It would come down to whether or not the art team has time to produce models faster than the development/programming teams can implement the rest of what's required for a new frame (which they apparently can because of the existence of deluxe skins).

12 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Plus we are in a political climate where not always entertaining every possible gender option at all times is considered "bad form" so even if they don't intend to ever implement it a maybe is optically better for the company than a hard no.

If there was a lore reason, as others have claimed, then they could simply say so.  There wont be a male Mirage because Mirage is a specific person, for example, and that would be fine.  Instead they've said maybe and they've said they originally intended for it to be an option.  The cosmetic options we currently have and the fact that we build these frames by the multitude all goes against the idea that they are individuals with individual characteristics.  I can completely replace my warframe's head and that's okay by the community but heaven forbid I change it's secondary sexual characteristics...

[Scruffel 356]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

It would be fun i think to have a genderswap skin for each f4ame.

We can already slap different animation sets on them already.

Make it a tennogen thing like I've said before.

Well, the reason why we can use different animation sets is because everyone uses the same type of skeleton rig, it's why a lot of Warframes have the same type of body structure. It's very simple for DE to do.

And it wouldn't be a TennoGen thing, because you can't edit the body's model through it. And yes, I know your whole idea for the community "cheap labor" (which it's not and calling it that sounds immoral) strategy, but I find something like that happening to be very unlikely especially considering how vague the details are and how it goes against what TennoGen is in the first place.

[Alpha56 313]

There are actually 5 genders, so you can't due to Bù!$µ!* globalist agenda to destroy western civilisations.

[(PS4)Kakurine2 433]

Like it or not letting the tennogen community take on the task of creating and doing most of the work to create genderswap skins could be an option.

There are faults as with as there are with anything. I'm just pointing out the option if de is concerned with a lack of respurces to do it themselves.

As for morals.  De just gives a bigger share of the pie to the creators. Everyone is still being compensated.  No one is being forced.

The base design of the frames allows for animations to change.  And tennogen is already reworking mesh and textures.

De has an asset if they want to use it.

[(PS4)Kakurine2 433]

1 hour ago, Alpha56 said:

There are actually 5 genders, so you can't due to Bù!$µ!* globalist agenda to destroy western civilisations.

Right. Lol.

Gender is genetic it doesn't change. Now who you find attractive and what you do in your private life is your business.

Gender and sexual preferences aren't the same.

Your fluffy bits have nothing to do with me.

Insert demolition man speech power to the people.

[Oreades 6,732]

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

If there was a lore reason, as others have claimed, then they could simply say so.  There wont be a male Mirage because Mirage is a specific person, for example, and that would be fine.  

And it is fine because that's the direction they went, They opted not to tread down the Diablo path with gendered classes and create characters instead.

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

Instead they've said maybe and they've said they originally intended for it to be an option. 

Yes they've said maybe at a point in time where saying "no" puts you on "the wrong side of history", "maybe" is the best course for optics. Tho to be fair even when any developer says "no" what they are actually saying is "Maybe" because what a developer says at one point has little bearing on what actually happens six months down the line. 

As far as the original intended option, that was back during a time when they they probably couldn't fathom having 30 some odd frames, back when they needed content and they had to flip the coin to decide between going the "pick your class" or "pick your character". They chose character, and where choosing your gender works for class it doesn't when you choose a character. 

While we're still periodically recalling the past, I'd be strangely OK with them re-adding jiggle physics to Saryn, cause that was a thing back in the day. Not that I expect that to happen. 

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

The cosmetic options we currently have and the fact that we build these frames by the multitude all goes against the idea that they are individuals with individual characteristics. 

Why exactly is that? Because I can choose the colors of my Frost or Ember or etc, Because I can change their helmet (tantamount to the warframes hat) suddenly them being unique characters is just thrown out the window?

Deluxe skins try to switch it up while sticking to the spirit of the frame..... unless they don't and to be honest I don't chock that up not to tossing the character out the window but poor art direction. Even when the Deluxe is heccin awesome but just doesn't read the source, I'm lookin at you Limbo Deluxe that to this day I will shout to the moon, should have been it's own frame. 

2 hours ago, Katinka said:

I can completely replace my warframe's head and that's okay by the community but heaven forbid I change it's secondary sexual characteristics...

I guess switching their hats does toss everything out the window, who knew....

As long as they're characters, yeah their secondary characteristics are kinda important as they are. 

Now if they ever add in a Component (Zaw) Warframe (The power creep, god help us all), maybe we raid Alad Vs Zanuka labs or something, then by all means pick and choose every aspect of that frames whatever ya want. Who knows they very well could be testing those waters with Modular Archwings. I certainly wouldn't mind choosing the exacting characteristics and T H I C C ness of my modular frame.

 

 

Just can't see them ever making it universal, I mean let us hypothetical that they do just throw up their hands one day and say, "Warframe Community, REJOICE! we're adding genderswaps of all the frames into the game!" 

There are only two ways they can go with that.....

1. They set the default gender of the frames and then make the gender alt a platinum purchase. Which is the only way I see that happening because they gotta make money and otherwise they're doubling their workload for free. The problem being that now people have the options but they might have to pay for the option they want. Which will cause endless bellyaching and accusations. "How dare you make me pay extra to play as my preferred gender" will likely become the next ultra common meta complaint thread and in giving in they will manage to make themselves the villains in enough peoples eyes to make it unpalatable for them to go down that road. 
2. They just add them all to the game by default and double their workload for free. I don't see that happening outside of the afformentioned nebulous "maybe" that probably translates into the same "no" it ever did but covers their butts in this our current year.

You're looking at what 30ish unique frames, that they will have to retroactively go back and alter and assuming they do that free of charge which is the only way they won't catch flak. That investment is going to have to come from somewhere and it's most likely going to come from cutting back content that can actually make them money. Like Deluxe skins or ya know game content.... Where is the ROI on that investment? 

About the only way I could see it maybe working is if they just let Tennogen artists go buck wild and do essentially whatever they wanted, then they could deflect the "blame" as to "why doesn't my preferred frame have my preferred gender option?" and "why do I have to pay to play as my preferred gender?" at the feet of those artists. Essentially they might just be able to have their cake and eat it too all while coming out smelling like a rose. 

Not that that doesn't have a potential to srsly backfire especially on consoles because with consoles they have to buy out the artist (DE essentially owns all the tennogen on consoles) but if they can't.... whelp then that tennogen just never makes it to consoles as we have seen in a few instances. Sooo Tennogen could be really hit or miss in the longrun if they can't come to amicable buyouts for genderswapped frames for our console buddies. Plus it's still a fair bit of under the hood investment on the part of DE for something that is gonna work 100% of the time 80% of the time. 

Who knows maybe I'm just cynical but I don't think we're going to see what would have happened if the coin had landed on the other side and they'd launched the game with Male/Female Excal instead of turning what was to be Female Excal into her own unique thing, Nyx. 

[Scruffel 356]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Like it or not letting the tennogen community take on the task of creating and doing most of the work to create genderswap skins could be an option.

There are faults as with as there are with anything. I'm just pointing out the option if de is concerned with a lack of respurces to do it themselves.

As for morals.  De just gives a bigger share of the pie to the creators. Everyone is still being compensated.  No one is being forced.

I think you seem to be still missing the point of TennoGen. The point of it is to allow anyone with the capabilities to create (mostly) any type and amount of items for the game. They aren't a resource that DE can use, because they are their own separate entity. Freelance artists, if you will. Yes, no one is being forced. Which is why it's an unreliable system to rely on community artists to create complex and high quality models for them, with the chance of them still being rejected. It's not to say that items still aren't turned around from being accepted, it's just not a huge loss compared to how much work a Deluxe skin can take. Unless DE would be monitoring the creation of those skins... than it's not simply not the same system anymore.

2 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

The base design of the frames allows for animations to change.  And tennogen is already reworking mesh and textures.

De has an asset if they want to use it.

TennoGen only reworks the mesh when it comes to Helmets, Syandanas, Attachments, and Melee Weapon Skins. And to make it clear mesh is practically the same as the model, and as I've said before. You can't change the body's model in a TennoGen skin.

And as I also have said before, they are not an "asset". Maybe a very last minute option for something, but not for something that would be better to do themselves. I don't want to derail the thread into this topic that's somewhat unrelated to the current one... unless someone wants to argue you don't need a complete redesign of a character's model to express a different/opposite gender, then go ahead.

[xHeretic 420]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Right. Lol.

Gender is genetic it doesn't change. Now who you find attractive and what you do in your private life is your business.

Gender and sexual preferences aren't the same.

Your fluffy bits have nothing to do with me.

Insert demolition man speech power to the people.

Sex is a bilogocal thing, gender is a social construct based on sex and sexual preferences are something completely subjective and personal. Example: Humans are a dimorphic specie (male XY, female XX and a very low percentage of intersex), based on the sex (male, female) you are rised to behave in various ways, thats gender (blue is for boys, pink for girls, stupid things lile that you get the idea), then a sexual preference would be beign lesbian, gay, hetero, bisexual, asexual, etc.

 

Dont wanna derail the thread but im pretty tired of reading misinformation lately

[SilentMobius 5,315]

13 hours ago, Katinka said:

Then why was the last response on a devstream a maybe?

The last reponse on a devstream that the art director not being as opposed as he used to be.

That's not a maybe, that's one person, from an art perspective, not a lore or game perspective.

Geoff has also said that there is no way he would commit his team to creating alternate-gender meshes for all Warframes.

[SneakyErvin 4,002]

23 hours ago, Cubewano said:

But see, they aren't. This is a conversation about creative ranges skins are allowed to possess in this game, whether in design, loyalty to a theme, or relevance to game lore, there is no reason tennogen would not count for this conversation. 

That you think these rules should apply exclusively to one skin type and no other is just a sign of express bias rather than neutral objectivity, unless you can further elaborate what exactly makes one not applicable but the other fully so.

 The actual point is to provide more cosmetic options, just like any skin series, none are bulk pushed but they are desired all the same. Some is better than none, and over time is better than never at all. Every other sentiment here is subjective at best, personal opinions, and assumptions on behalf of the community on how they're respond and what they'd want and even how DE would manage. You can say you don't care for the idea but you need to stop treating it as an objective world truth. 

Only DE would know how these skins would sell, just because you wouldn't buy it with you explicit bias against them doesn't make it a devoid of potential, especially if as noted they can release the mold to tennogen afterwards, which could make them far more resource efficient long term if they are remotely desirable which deluxes on their own already proved the potential for. 

There was never a suggestion they needed to make a variant for all forms of a frame. That said, adding a small degree of gold trim is not exactly a trying effort. (early primes were not augmented all that much visually)

^ 

You see, it all comes down to opinions. So stop throwing around words that imply my opinion is claimed to be the "truth" or biased because yours in no way any different. There is no truth or right here, because we are all just juggling opinions in the end. As I said, for me tennogen doesnt matter in the equation or discussion, but for you it does. See, just a matter of different opinions.

I've also elaborated several reasons why I am against the idea.

And yeah, more cosmetic options would be great, I simply dont think that solution is boring genderbenders. I'm kinda wondering exactly what part of my opinions you suddenly decided to be some form of claim to truth.

You are right, only DE would know. But what would happen if they make a handful of genderbenders that sell poorly, should they at that point stop or create one for each frame still?

Sure, some gold trim would work on some frames, but on others it wouldnt.

There is also another thing people arent thnking about because it is a very of-the-beaten-path kinda issue. How should Wukong and Nezha be treated, or other future possible frames that may be based more on a deity? Should they risk doing genderbenders for those or should they play it safe? I mean even Blizzard were forced to change colors on some Symmetra skins because they were too much alike certain hindu deities. Certain people go on crusades for such small stupid things and often end up being "right" even if it isnt an actual depiction of their deities.

 

[SneakyErvin 4,002]

16 hours ago, Katinka said:

DE will always have a commitment to adding new frames because they need new frames to have new Primes and Prime Access is one of their main revenue sources so I doubt it's anything to do with a lack of ideas.  It would come down to whether or not the art team has time to produce models faster than the development/programming teams can implement the rest of what's required for a new frame (which they apparently can because of the existence of deluxe skins).

If there was a lore reason, as others have claimed, then they could simply say so.  There wont be a male Mirage because Mirage is a specific person, for example, and that would be fine.  Instead they've said maybe and they've said they originally intended for it to be an option.  The cosmetic options we currently have and the fact that we build these frames by the multitude all goes against the idea that they are individuals with individual characteristics.  I can completely replace my warframe's head and that's okay by the community but heaven forbid I change it's secondary sexual characteristics...

You arent really replacing the head though. You are swapping the helmet, both of which you craft from old blueprints to begin with. It is kinda like how you use formas to get the right type of socket for your mods to be less bulky and require more space, you simply pop out some bolts, take away the old helmet and replace a new one. Starting to alter the body would very likely require our tenno to be both a master craftsman/engineer aswell as a grade S+ bio-engineer super-genius.

Frames are both grown and crafted and it is very likely the growing bio-mass part that shapes the body into that of a male or female shape since it is in the genetic makeup. Frames are afterall not just metal, bolts, wires and cables.

At the start of it all I also doubt DE had a clear vision of what the frames were actually going to be and if they were going to be suits or full android like beings that we have now.

[Katinka 6,139]

I had a bunch of replies and quotes laid out but then my browser lost them all...  I can't be bothered doing it again.

Basic jist of it was that swapping helmets likely wouldn't be as easy (in world) as people think, going by Excalibur Umbra Sunder Helmet.  That looks fairly fused to his flesh and as much a part of him as anything else.

 

[Cubewano 4,841]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You see, it all comes down to opinions. So stop throwing around words that imply my opinion is claimed to be the "truth" or biased because yours in no way any different. There is no truth or right here, because we are all just juggling opinions in the end. As I said, for me tennogen doesnt matter in the equation or discussion, but for you it does. See, just a matter of different opinions.

I've also elaborated several reasons why I am against the idea.

And yeah, more cosmetic options would be great, I simply dont think that solution is boring genderbenders. I'm kinda wondering exactly what part of my opinions you suddenly decided to be some form of claim to truth.

You are right, only DE would know. But what would happen if they make a handful of genderbenders that sell poorly, should they at that point stop or create one for each frame still?

Sure, some gold trim would work on some frames, but on others it wouldnt.

There is also another thing people arent thnking about because it is a very of-the-beaten-path kinda issue. How should Wukong and Nezha be treated, or other future possible frames that may be based more on a deity? Should they risk doing genderbenders for those or should they play it safe? I mean even Blizzard were forced to change colors on some Symmetra skins because they were too much alike certain hindu deities. Certain people go on crusades for such small stupid things and often end up being "right" even if it isnt an actual depiction of their deities.

 

I'm not the one presenting my argument as a rational thing when it is entirely emotional, you are, and if you want to try and apply logic to it then you should be ready to support it with factual and logical points in its favor. You didn't say you personally disagree because you just don't like the idea, you said you don't think it would fit reason x y and z, and now you are trying to swap focus since you none of those reasonings were able to hold up to any level of genuine thought. Either there is rationale or there is not, you're back peddling makes me think there is not, likewise with your selective view on where your logic is being applied.  

All of yours reasons have failed to make any actual sense, you've not been able to support them, and now you aren't even trying to it seems. 

Boring to you. And I didn't decide anything, you did when you tried to present your argument as factual and rationale rather than emotional which apparently is what it has fallen to. 

That would be up to DE, if it wasn't showing any benefit I would not blame them for discontinuing however. 

If DE have opted to go so extensively into that design path then they'll manage. 

That'd be again up to DE, their pr department in specific, when the times comes and with their ability to measure the impact of such instances should such a thing even happen given how far off the artistic style of this game is. I'm not a seer and I'm not going to just assume the future or operate in vague hypotheticals. 

 

 

[Cubewano 4,841]

16 hours ago, Scruffel said:

Well, the reason why we can use different animation sets is because everyone uses the same type of skeleton rig, it's why a lot of Warframes have the same type of body structure. It's very simple for DE to do.

And it wouldn't be a TennoGen thing, because you can't edit the body's model through it. And yes, I know your whole idea for the community "cheap labor" (which it's not and calling it that sounds immoral) strategy, but I find something like that happening to be very unlikely especially considering how vague the details are and how it goes against what TennoGen is in the first place.

Frankly I think the most reasonable route to go -especially if DE wanted to cash in tennogen to make the models continue to generate revenue past their initial creation- would be to make the alternate sex skins in house, only do them for the base non-primed design, and then open up their meshes to the tennogen market for more expansive revenue gains. It would remove any new logistics from the equation so far as financial splits and such go, leaves the methodology all the same, and keeps things simple and understandable. 

Then DE can take a look at how they sell and move on from there if they like, or expand even.