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VotumPrime

POLL: Kill OR Save The Lotus (Community Opinion)

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20 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

But don't you want things to be easier on the writers too?

I dont see how this even matters. They are there for that very reason, it will just be their jobs as usual.

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2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I dont see how this even matters. They are there for that very reason, it will just be their jobs as usual.

Just to be considerate of DE or maybe that's just enabling them....to get away with bad writing.

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59 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

The best-made bonds with fictional characters come naturally, without the writer shoving things onto the reader.

DE has been shoving Lotus-spacemom thing since they came up with the idea that Lotus is going to be an important character, and not just a voice that gives missions.

Hence, I give no Heks about her, because all I think about Lotus is what I know about her from when I first met her, in 2014. And she was NOT a space mom back then (outside of Rebecca memes of course).

I disagree with this guy. I never got the impression that it was forced. She forces herself into the role of mission control during the prologue, but after that she's only as important as you want to make her. Is she a valued and trusted friend or a simple commanding officer? You get to decide. The most that the writers "force her on us" is during the finale of Second Dream when she comes on-board to make sure the evacuation went all right despite us being attacked by boarders. She TELLS us that she loves us, but she has just as many practical reasons to show up as she does personal, I didn't feel that was forced

Now, that's all pre-Sacrifice

Post-Sacrifice I'm not sure how to feel about Lotus, simply because we don't know what Lotus is. We have no way of knowing if Lotus was an actually-true identity that Hunhow's Wife stole from Lotus, or if it was a sham that the Orokin forced upon Natah.

All I can really say for certainty, is that if New Natah stands in our way I will find some way to justify cutting her down. And if she stands aside, I will find some way to justify letting her live

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1 minute ago, VotumPrime said:

Just to be considerate of DE or maybe that's just enabling them....

Let them do their jobs. Players should have the same power as book readers on how a story moves forward: none.

Thinking that they should let her live just to so their writers have an easier time is not being considerate. Its patronazing.

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4 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Let them do their jobs. Players should have the same power as book readers on how a story moves forward: none.

Thinking that they should let her live just to so their writers have an easier time is not being considerate. Its patronazing.

I also agree but I dread the story being predictable so much as someone who is an avid reader who reads on a daily basis.

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5 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Let them do their jobs. Players should have the same power as book readers on how a story moves forward: none.

Thinking that they should let her live just to so their writers have an easier time is not being considerate. Its patronazing.

If this were merely a book I'd agree.

We are at a point now where I feel that the writers should be creating the notion of branching outcomes though...even if it is vastly more work.

That has the side effect of creating a new enemy faction full of enemy Operators and frames but I don't see that as a bad thing provided it doesn't force PvP.

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1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

want her DEAD, myself included. *polishes Opticor*

Damn straight

*Spins my AkVasto Primes*  

Best+gun+_c4dbfd4a2403e8f05fa9db68dd5935

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Whatever gets me rid of purple Ordis Lotus. However, there must be an explaination WHY Sentient Lotus retains some of her Lotus looks, even she's now hostile.

And even then, we get Mail sent from her, she even creates Warframe Profiles... So something doesn't add up anyway with her act.

That thing with the white scarf around her hands is also wierd, I can't put my finger on it about it's meaning, except adding some holiness thing. Hunhow doesn't have that.

BTT: Yes, I do care.

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Not really matter what the community wish because DE is who make the final decision. Like when the operators were added to the story they never asked for us closed and early open beta players what we wish they just messed up the headcanons what we made. If they make an option to let her die or let her alive, they just creating one more hole in the continuum and we can have that abomination like Vor, Corrputed Vor or any other characters whom we slayed but once again they reborn in one way or another.

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Here's the only scenario where I would ever be interested in not killing the Lotus off:

"The Lotus" was basically just a Margulis skin-mask worn by Natah to worm its way into the affections of the Tenno. If we presume it to be an authentic personality matrix, then I would be interested in a plotline where we attack Natah and forcibly extract that personality matrix in order to resurrect Margulis.

Then we'd have a legitimate Orokin who isn't a total $&*^bag, who is our actual space-mom, adjusting to the state of affairs in present-day and presumably trying to help the Tenno grow into a proper degree of agency. That means actual progress in the political situation rather than endless pattern-holding orchestrated by Natah while the Sentients approach. It's genuinely sad that the closest thing we have to an agent of change right now is Salad Five.

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Myself?

I do care about her, mostly because I'm quite fond of 'mother like' characters. 

In terms of the whole 'who's side is she on' - I think she's brainwashed by the Sentients. I've got several reasons why in lore, but this time I want to discuss the other reason - what it means for the story.

So, let's tot up us going to kill the Lotus because she's a traitor - what does that achieve, plot wise? Well, it does create internal conflict for the Tenno, but not much else. All the characters who are currently against us would still be enemies, and all the characters who are allied would still be just fine working with us, all for more or less the same reason. It's pretty much the same world sans Lotus. Honestly, this is the case no matter what - even if we think we're going to save her and she really is evil and we wind up killing her, that doesn't change much. There's not much that can be done with that thread that's really interesting, aside from us failing to kill her - in which case, it's pretty much the same situation we're in now.

But what if she is being manipulated? Well, that means that one very major character relationship has potential reason to change - Hunhow. See, Hunhow has made reference to the fact that, if Natah was manipulated and forced to rejoin the Sentients, that he would not be able to stop them, implying that he would or would want to try. So if he sees us also trying, potentially making up the difference? That changes a character dynamic, introducing a good old fashioned redemption arc. Within that, there's a lot of ways this plot thread can be made interesting. I can think of at least four.

1: We succeed, rescue Lotus and restore her old self, and our dynamic with her changes going forward/she sacrifices herself. This produces a lovely feel-good and/or potentially emotional moment, and very much fits with the 'coming of age' storyline that's been going on thus far. We effectively 'move out' after growing up over the past few quests - becoming independent of our mother, even if she is still on our side and wants to help us. Hunhow could then either return to being an antagonist, his daughter safe, or stay on our side, completing the whole 'family' angle - space mums, dads, uncles and grandpas, as well as drawing the battle lines for the New War - firmly establishing who the main players of this conflict are long-term. Probably the most uplifting ending, bookmarking the story before this point - double so if it comes with a line like 'Wake up, Lotus'. We came into this world alone, but we will not fight this war alone.

2: We partially succeed. We can't restore Lotus's original personality, but we do save her from the abusive relationship with her Sentient family - maybe revealing the personality alterations and sentient deception causes New-Natah to independently decide to defect. This produces lots of juicy conflict, since this new Lotus isn't entirely the old one, and allows for a new dynamic. In terms of end-result on the wider universe and gameplay, it'd be similar to option 1, but leave the characters in a different place story-wise.

3: Lotus can't be saved, and we're forced to kill her. Similar to above, Lotus's original personality can't be restored, but she doesn't defect. We then have to kill her. This produces a lot of interesting character development for us and potentially Hunhow, especially if he realises that we can't save her and tells us to - presumably with a 'my daughter is dead' style of line. Alternatively, he returns to being an antagonist in vengeance, possibly as an independent enemy since I doubt that 'Mother' would welcome him back. This leads to a far bleaker and sadder outcome (at least for people who like Lotus), but possibly not without a glimmer of hope - of renewed determination, something to fight for - that this kind of tragedy not happen again.

4: Lotus can't be saved and we don't kill her. This is the 'bad ending' scenario, through and through, 'resolving' the Lotus conflict by confirming that Lotus is not only a villain forever, but that she'll come back later, establishing her new role permanently. This isn't the same as her always being evil, since that doesn't really have the same elements of tragedy - our ally is dead, and this new character is inhabiting their shell. This, again, draws the battle lines, but with a far bleaker outcome - the odds are firmly stacked against us in this outcome. This one would only really be interesting if it led to Hunhow's defection, otherwise we'd run into the scenario I described with the 'she's genuinely evil' possibility - everything being pretty much the same before and after.

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Myself?

I do care about her, mostly because I'm quite fond of 'mother like' characters. 

In terms of the whole 'who's side is she on' - I think she's brainwashed by the Sentients. I've got several reasons why in lore, but this time I want to discuss the other reason - what it means for the story.

So, let's tot up us going to kill the Lotus because she's a traitor - what does that achieve, plot wise? Well, it does create internal conflict for the Tenno, but not much else. All the characters who are currently against us would still be enemies, and all the characters who are allied would still be just fine working with us, all for more or less the same reason. It's pretty much the same world sans Lotus. Honestly, this is the case no matter what - even if we think we're going to save her and she really is evil and we wind up killing her, that doesn't change much. There's not much that can be done with that thread that's really interesting, aside from us failing to kill her - in which case, it's pretty much the same situation we're in now.

But what if she is being manipulated? Well, that means that one very major character relationship has potential reason to change - Hunhow. See, Hunhow has made reference to the fact that, if Natah was manipulated and forced to rejoin the Sentients, that he would not be able to stop them, implying that he would or would want to try. So if he sees us also trying, potentially making up the difference? That changes a character dynamic, introducing a good old fashioned redemption arc. Within that, there's a lot of ways this plot thread can be made interesting. I can think of at least four.

1: We succeed, rescue Lotus and restore her old self, and our dynamic with her changes going forward/she sacrifices herself. This produces a lovely feel-good and/or potentially emotional moment, and very much fits with the 'coming of age' storyline that's been going on thus far. We effectively 'move out' after growing up over the past few quests - becoming independent of our mother, even if she is still on our side and wants to help us. Hunhow could then either return to being an antagonist, his daughter safe, or stay on our side, completing the whole 'family' angle - space mums, dads, uncles and grandpas, as well as drawing the battle lines for the New War - firmly establishing who the main players of this conflict are long-term. Probably the most uplifting ending, bookmarking the story before this point - double so if it comes with a line like 'Wake up, Lotus'. We came into this world alone, but we will not fight this war alone.

2: We partially succeed. We can't restore Lotus's original personality, but we do save her from the abusive relationship with her Sentient family - maybe revealing the personality alterations and sentient deception causes New-Natah to independently decide to defect. This produces lots of juicy conflict, since this new Lotus isn't entirely the old one, and allows for a new dynamic. In terms of end-result on the wider universe and gameplay, it'd be similar to option 1, but leave the characters in a different place story-wise.

3: Lotus can't be saved, and we're forced to kill her. Similar to above, Lotus's original personality can't be restored, but she doesn't defect. We then have to kill her. This produces a lot of interesting character development for us and potentially Hunhow, especially if he realises that we can't save her and tells us to - presumably with a 'my daughter is dead' style of line. Alternatively, he returns to being an antagonist in vengeance, possibly as an independent enemy since I doubt that 'Mother' would welcome him back. This leads to a far bleaker and sadder outcome (at least for people who like Lotus), but possibly not without a glimmer of hope - of renewed determination, something to fight for - that this kind of tragedy not happen again.

4: Lotus can't be saved and we don't kill her. This is the 'bad ending' scenario, through and through, 'resolving' the Lotus conflict by confirming that Lotus is not only a villain forever, but that she'll come back later, establishing her new role permanently. This isn't the same as her always being evil, since that doesn't really have the same elements of tragedy - our ally is dead, and this new character is inhabiting their shell. This, again, draws the battle lines, but with a far bleaker outcome - the odds are firmly stacked against us in this outcome. This one would only really be interesting if it led to Hunhow's defection, otherwise we'd run into the scenario I described with the 'she's genuinely evil' possibility - everything being pretty much the same before and after.

Ironically I feel like we've grown more attached to DE as people rather than any of their characters that they have created in their game so far-- combined.

unknown.png

Unsurprising results sadly. But lets check back in a week and see.

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vor 13 Minuten schrieb FlyingDice:

"The Lotus" was basically just a Margulis skin-mask worn by Natah to worm its way into the affections of the Tenno. If we presume it to be an authentic personality matrix, then I would be interested in a plotline where we attack Natah and forcibly extract that personality matrix in order to resurrect Margulis.

And this is where "Duviri Paradox" may come into play.

A little addentum to my previous post: The last time we saw her in person, she didn't attack us and the sentients she had with her, had blue color - usually it's red, orange or yellow when dealing with Sentients, even Hunhow has this glaring orange aura.

Seen in the back here: https://youtu.be/p1OgRxS3mmM?t=1349

May be just an oversight, but blue usually means "friendly" in the warframe universe - hell, her energy color is even blu-ish.

 

 

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In a story standpoint, she is an emotional crutch for the tenno. With her out of the picture it would actually exponentially increase the story possibilities of an actual post lotus universe and give us a lot of things the tenno have to then deal with themselves.

Though it looks like the underline theme of the next quest is basically What is family or What does it mean to be family.

1) Natah/Lotus, self sacrifices to save the tenno from the sentient in the climax. Allowing us to get a decisive blow of some kind. Leaving the tenno to truly forge their own future.

(This option has a lot of merit, it would force the tenno to actually think for themselves now that their mother is gone. This outcome would cause all future quests to revolve around their personal growth and the paths they individually choose to take. Even possibly lead to tenno splinter groups.)

2) We end up with Natah, making the active choice to be the lotus, its clear even with her "reprogramming" gone she still cares for the tenno deeply. This could lead to her coming to terms with her feelings. That even though being the lotus was forced on her, the memories and feelings she gained during her own second dream are still very real and are just as important as the ones she had before.

(This option, would be my favorite. It would give lotus actually agency in the story. This option is very similar to the first but just mixes the lotus into it, all the future quests would revolve around repairing the trust between the tenno and the lotus. With it clear to the tenno that the lotus is not unquestionable or infallible, it would also lead to splinter groups forming)

3) Or with her being a mimic, she might have an identity crisis and split into 2 separate entities of natah and lotus. I hate this possible outcome because it would basically give us our cake and let us eat it and no one really grows as a character.

(This is the easiest and laziest option, it keeps the status quo and would basically amount to the whole saga of quests being a game of hot space potato)

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19 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

Ironically I feel like we've grown more attached to DE as people rather than any of their characters that they have created in their game so far-- combined.

unknown.png

Unsurprising results sadly. But lets check back in a week and see.

I don't actually expect it to change much, but seriously, a less biased poll would help.

 

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1 minute ago, rapt0rman said:

I don't actually expect it to change much, but seriously, a less biased poll would help.

 

You make it then.

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1 minute ago, rapt0rman said:

I don't actually expect it to change much, but seriously, a less biased poll would help.

 

Agreed, how the three questions are phrased. Does effect how people answer. Either more questions were needed for more variety of thoughts on the matter or just a yes or no pull.

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The poll is kinda garbage because the reason for saving her according to that is for the writers. I won't touch it.

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14 minutes ago, Giantconch said:

The poll is kinda garbage because the reason for saving her according to that is for the writers. I won't touch it.

Holy crap. Fine! I WILL MAKE IT THEN.

Though I highly doubt the results will be any different.

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I'd prefer if they have us kill/save the lotus, it's as big a moment as Second Dream reveal was, and not a meaningless gesture like in war within (kill the queen, let her live, etc.).

As for writing, it isn't hard either way to make a story that links and opens new possibilities going forward for either killing or saving her.  

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Forums 1.5 Years ago:

"With the upcoming Sacrifice Quest about to release, lets do a poll! Will you Kill, or Not Kill your Operator?"



The very idea of "We're going to get to kill the Lotus" spawned from the dankest Memes of the Community, and was in no way ever discussed by the actual Developers. You are currently making a fool of yourself, and when someone collects screen shots of your Forum Posts and Comments to put it into one big "LOL! Look at these Morons who thought we'd be killing the Lotus" video compilation, don't come crying back to the Forums that you're being made fun of for your herd mentality and lack of foresight on the issue.

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1 minute ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Forums 1.5 Years ago:

"With the upcoming Sacrifice Quest about to release, lets do a poll! Will you Kill, or Not Kill your Operator?"



The very idea of "We're going to get to kill the Lotus" spawned from the dankest Memes of the Community, and was in no way ever discussed by the actual Developers. You are currently making a fool of yourself, and when someone collects screen shots of your Forum Posts and Comments to put it into one big "LOL! Look at these Morons who thought we'd be killing the Lotus" video compilation, don't come crying back to the Forums that you're being made fun of for your herd mentality and lack of foresight on the issue.

Doesn't matter. They can do what they want as long as it's funny.

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