POLL: Kill OR Save The Lotus (Community Opinion)

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2019-09-08 at 10:32 AM, Loza03 said:

Myself?

I do care about her, mostly because I'm quite fond of 'mother like' characters. 

In terms of the whole 'who's side is she on' - I think she's brainwashed by the Sentients. I've got several reasons why in lore, but this time I want to discuss the other reason - what it means for the story.

So, let's tot up us going to kill the Lotus because she's a traitor - what does that achieve, plot wise? Well, it does create internal conflict for the Tenno, but not much else. All the characters who are currently against us would still be enemies, and all the characters who are allied would still be just fine working with us, all for more or less the same reason. It's pretty much the same world sans Lotus. Honestly, this is the case no matter what - even if we think we're going to save her and she really is evil and we wind up killing her, that doesn't change much. There's not much that can be done with that thread that's really interesting, aside from us failing to kill her - in which case, it's pretty much the same situation we're in now.

But what if she is being manipulated? Well, that means that one very major character relationship has potential reason to change - Hunhow. See, Hunhow has made reference to the fact that, if Natah was manipulated and forced to rejoin the Sentients, that he would not be able to stop them, implying that he would or would want to try. So if he sees us also trying, potentially making up the difference? That changes a character dynamic, introducing a good old fashioned redemption arc. Within that, there's a lot of ways this plot thread can be made interesting. I can think of at least four.

1: We succeed, rescue Lotus and restore her old self, and our dynamic with her changes going forward/she sacrifices herself. This produces a lovely feel-good and/or potentially emotional moment, and very much fits with the 'coming of age' storyline that's been going on thus far. We effectively 'move out' after growing up over the past few quests - becoming independent of our mother, even if she is still on our side and wants to help us. Hunhow could then either return to being an antagonist, his daughter safe, or stay on our side, completing the whole 'family' angle - space mums, dads, uncles and grandpas, as well as drawing the battle lines for the New War - firmly establishing who the main players of this conflict are long-term. Probably the most uplifting ending, bookmarking the story before this point - double so if it comes with a line like 'Wake up, Lotus'. We came into this world alone, but we will not fight this war alone.

2: We partially succeed. We can't restore Lotus's original personality, but we do save her from the abusive relationship with her Sentient family - maybe revealing the personality alterations and sentient deception causes New-Natah to independently decide to defect. This produces lots of juicy conflict, since this new Lotus isn't entirely the old one, and allows for a new dynamic. In terms of end-result on the wider universe and gameplay, it'd be similar to option 1, but leave the characters in a different place story-wise.

3: Lotus can't be saved, and we're forced to kill her. Similar to above, Lotus's original personality can't be restored, but she doesn't defect. We then have to kill her. This produces a lot of interesting character development for us and potentially Hunhow, especially if he realises that we can't save her and tells us to - presumably with a 'my daughter is dead' style of line. Alternatively, he returns to being an antagonist in vengeance, possibly as an independent enemy since I doubt that 'Mother' would welcome him back. This leads to a far bleaker and sadder outcome (at least for people who like Lotus), but possibly not without a glimmer of hope - of renewed determination, something to fight for - that this kind of tragedy not happen again.

4: Lotus can't be saved and we don't kill her. This is the 'bad ending' scenario, through and through, 'resolving' the Lotus conflict by confirming that Lotus is not only a villain forever, but that she'll come back later, establishing her new role permanently. This isn't the same as her always being evil, since that doesn't really have the same elements of tragedy - our ally is dead, and this new character is inhabiting their shell. This, again, draws the battle lines, but with a far bleaker outcome - the odds are firmly stacked against us in this outcome. This one would only really be interesting if it led to Hunhow's defection, otherwise we'd run into the scenario I described with the 'she's genuinely evil' possibility - everything being pretty much the same before and after.

Don't know if this gets mentioned in the pages proceeding your post...anyway, for options 1 and 2: wonder if either would affect your antagonistic relationship with Stalker.

[VotumPrime]

10 hours ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Don't know if this gets mentioned in the pages proceeding your post...anyway, for options 1 and 2: wonder if either would affect your antagonistic relationship with Stalker.

I don't really get @Loza03. Lotus is one of the furthest things from a mother figure. That's like making the Terminator your father figure, which might actually be better than a lot of father figures out there. Statistics show that most people have a daddy issue or a single mother issue and on a separate note they found some high correlation between that with drug addiction and crime in families who live in poverty.

 

[VotumPrime]

It's time to let love die. No love...only war.

The results are clear.

I think it's time to conclude this thread as the results are clear that the Lotus doesn't good enough writing to make us care about her as a character without it being forced story-wise.

[rapt0rman]

I'm sorry, but the only thing this thread shows is that despite being given ample opportunity, you still chose to stick with skewed data and leading questions.

It's already well known that the vocal majority wants to kill the Lotus, even if you hadn't used a manipulative poll the results would have been the same.

The amount of people who do want to save the Lotus but won't vote because they're being misrepresented, aren't even the issue (It's certainly insulting to both DE's and my intelligence, but it's not going to affect the poll). It's the amount of people who don't care about the story and will gladly vote to kill the Lotus regardless of the contents of the poll, that are giving you the results you want.

"Do you want to kill the lotus: Y/N" and "Is it possible to write an interesting and complex story where the Lotus is saved: Y/N" are two separate issues that are not directly correlated.

Edited September 12, 2019 by rapt0rman

[Loza03]

Something fun.

Killing Lotus would be far easier for the writers. At this current point, killing her off would basically change nothing in its own right. The battle lines are drawn - we're already down a Lotus,  the Sentients are demonstrably an overwhelming force. The Lotus is currently not necessary - killing her, then, would be a cheap and easy way to create drama.

Saving her in a manner that pleases most of the population would be WAY harder. A lot of people do reckon she's a villain now - she's gone fallen hero, and fallen hero re-redemption arcs are notoriously difficult.

On 2019-09-11 at 2:25 PM, VotumPrime said:

I don't really get @Loza03. Lotus is one of the furthest things from a mother figure. That's like making the Terminator your father figure, which might actually be better than a lot of father figures out there. Statistics show that most people have a daddy issue or a single mother issue and on a separate note they found some high correlation between that with drug addiction and crime in families who live in poverty.

 

Because if a machine, a Terminator , can learn the value of human life, maybe we can too.

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2019-09-11 at 6:25 AM, VotumPrime said:

I don't really get @Loza03. Lotus is one of the furthest things from a mother figure. That's like making the Terminator your father figure, which might actually be better than a lot of father figures out there. Statistics show that most people have a daddy issue or a single mother issue and on a separate note they found some high correlation between that with drug addiction and crime in families who live in poverty.

 

Two things:

• Lotus was a mother figure for a number of years from the launch of the game. Then the narrative progressed casting her in the current role. It's not hard to imagine a longer term player still seeing her that way.

I, personally, never trusted her... But that's just me.

• The T-800 was a father figure (of sorts) in T-2.

 

Personally? Kill her or keep her, the Tenno should become what amounts to a race with the option to choose your own meaningful affiliation ... Players should get to choose that imo.

Had I my druthers, the decision to kill or not kill her should be the entry to choosing that affiliation and be a branching decision you can't go back and reverse easily.

That opens up some interesting options across the board and increases the number of potentially hostile factions imo. 

[VotumPrime]

6 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

I'm sorry, but the only thing this thread shows is that despite being given ample opportunity, you still chose to stick with skewed data and leading questions.

It's already well known that the vocal majority wants to kill the Lotus, even if you hadn't used a manipulative poll the results would have been the same.

The amount of people who do want to save the Lotus but won't vote because they're being misrepresented, aren't even the issue (It's certainly insulting to both DE's and my intelligence, but it's not going to affect the poll). It's the amount of people who don't care about the story and will gladly vote to kill the Lotus regardless of the contents of the poll, that are giving you the results you want.

"Do you want to kill the lotus: Y/N" and "Is it possible to write an interesting and complex story where the Lotus is saved: Y/N" are two separate issues that are not directly correlated.

You're right. Look what happened during the 2016 elections. Should never underestimate the silent majority.

[Loza03]

25 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

You're right. Look what happened during the 2016 elections. Should never underestimate the silent majority.

Actually, the Rust Belt that made the sudden turn and got Trump in wasn't being silent at all. It had been asking for change for some time, and since Hilary wasn't talking about industry and Trump was, they voted for him, despite traditionally being against his party. Obviously, Trump then proceeded to treat them like garbage, but that's irrelevant.

The actual takeaway from the 2016 elections isn't not to underestimate the silent majority, it's that ignoring elements of something just because of tradition or the easiest conclusion is going to bite you sooner or later.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Loza03

[VotumPrime]

25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Actually, the Rust Belt that made the sudden turn and got Trump in wasn't being silent at all. It had been asking for change for some time, and since Hilary wasn't talking about industry and Trump was, they voted for him, despite traditionally being against his party. Obviously, Trump then proceeded to treat them like garbage, but that's irrelevant.

The actual takeaway from the 2016 elections isn't not to underestimate the silent majority, it's that ignoring elements of something just because of tradition or the easiest conclusion is going to bite you sooner or later.

Agreed. Trump 2020? ;>

[rapt0rman]

50 minutes ago, VotumPrime said:

You're right. Look what happened during the 2016 elections. Should never underestimate the silent majority.

A) non-committal answer that doesn't address the problem

B) Lets keep real world politics out of this

C) the people who want to kill the Lotus are hardly silent

[VotumPrime]

4 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

A) non-committal answer that doesn't address the problem

B) Lets keep real world politics out of this

C) the people who want to kill the Lotus are hardly silent

Sure. But that's why they are also the vocal minority. Most of them are players who have been around for a bit too long and want to kill the Lotus cause they are bored of her.

[5H4DE]

I want Lotus gone and Ordis's memories fully restored and given his own body to pilot other than the ship.