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xHeretic

Operator bad?

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44 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

I don't like it at all too but I was compeled to do it because I fell in love with the operator since I was able to get him complete after the new war (and that was the last year (2018) after a pretty long hiatus I took from warframe)

Not to take away any merit of your "experiment", which I think is cool ( I also play with operator often ), but:

1) Not dying isn't really a good measure when it comes to operator mode, since you can't really "die" in operator, especially if you're dashing with Lockdown

2) Magus Lockdown scales and does a stupid amount of damage. Up to 8 enemies a pop, 60% of their health in damage is no joke, specially at high levels.

3) Since this was excavation arby, my guess is that your team mates were more focused on protecting and feeding excavators rather than try to do the most damage. I wouldn't really measure team mate efficiency on excavation missions based on how much damage they did.. hora and frost are awesome at this, not because of killing enemies but because of locking down and CCing the area.

As for the Umbra "effect", I've seen contraditory reports with my Wukong ( which I assume is the same thing ). Some times it counts, some times it doesn't.. may be related to who is hosting, but not sure.

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)R3N36AD3 said:

You didn't kill 1286 as an operator.

Most of the kills most likely came from umbra. 72 melee kills proves it. Unless you just discredited your point that you never used your warframe in the 1 hour 30 mins you were in the match. Because your operator cannot use a paracesis.

Umbra stats do count towards mission results. Not sure if you noticed but you have used 599 abilities used in that match. The highest usage in the squad. That's the A.I. Working out for you, not entirely just your operator.

Dude, you are sure you are reading? Ive said "as you can see I've just done 72 melee kills with him", I've never claimed there was all of the operator kills, you even quote the disclaimer that said "**EDIT / DISCLAIMER**:  I didn't know now umbra kills and dmg are tracked, my mistake, i'm gonna do more test on arbi because of that.". When you do "void dash" count as an ability, try it for yourself. If u didn't know, to heal and use magus lockdown I HAVE to do void dash. Cheers.

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4 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

Not to take away any merit of your "experiment", which I think is cool ( I also play with operator often ), but:

1) Not dying isn't really a good measure when it comes to operator mode, since you can't really "die" in operator, especially if you're dashing with Lockdown

2) Magus Lockdown scales and does a stupid amount of damage. Up to 8 enemies a pop, 60% of their health in damage is no joke, specially at high levels.

3) Since this was excavation arby, my guess is that your team mates were more focused on protecting and feeding excavators rather than try to do the most damage. I wouldn't really measure team mate efficiency on excavation missions based on how much damage they did.. hora and frost are awesome at this, not because of killing enemies but because of locking down and CCing the area.

As for the Umbra "effect", I've seen contraditory reports with my Wukong ( which I assume is the same thing ). Some times it counts, some times it doesn't.. may be related to who is hosting, but not sure.

1) You can die actually, if you are run out of heal with your operator, and transfered back to your wrframe in a S#&$ty situation, you will die. I've died many times on arbi because of that. 
2) yes but some infested mobs have armor and that armor scales pretty quickly too, and that dmg from lockdown is neglected by armor.
3) One Khora was the best dmg ouput unitl I was (if you look the cap, you'll notice it), neither them or I was focused on "do damage", we were all focused on survive and protect (that's why I main vazarin).

And yes, that's why now i'm changing my valkyr build to put an aura forma on her to use it for operator without magus lockdown test and without umbra dmg, I hope you can view future threads of test with that setup 😄

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7 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

Dude, you are sure youve read ? Ive said "I killed 72 mobs with the paracesis", ive never claimed there was all of the operator kills, you even quote the disclaimer that said "umbra kills are tracked, my mistake". When you do "void dash" count as an ability, try for yourself. If u didnt know, to heal and use magus lockdown I HAVE to do void dash. Cheers.

So you're saying that you've manually counted the melee kills you've done with the paracesis? And that you've counted 72 dead infested lying on the ground when you meleed them to death while you, yourself was using excal and not the A.I.?

Yes, operator skills adds to the total abilities used but A.I. Abilities usage of your umbra counts as well. Hence, you ended up with the highest ability usage out of your squad.

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Just now, (PS4)R3N36AD3 said:

So you're saying that you've manually counted the melee kills you've done with the paracesis? And that you've counted 72 dead infested lying on the ground when you meleed them to death while you, yourself was using excal and not the A.I.?

Yes, operator skills adds to the total abilities used but A.I. Abilities usage of your umbra counts as well. Hence, you ended up with the highest ability usage out of your squad.

I didn't now at that time that the AI kills were tracked, I have to quote myself again? I've used the paracesis, I've thinked "hey, that melee kills sure were the times I used the paracesis", I don't understand your point then. Now i'm building a valkyr to dont get any AI kills/abilities usage and keep my companion alive (because yes, I like to loot with fetch and i like to view the map when i move the warframe because you have to move the warframe or the enemy spawn goes to hell).

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1 hour ago, Sovereign991 said:

Rev is also an invincible frame, who has % damage options for hard targets. Your hate is irrational gears, dunno where the hate-boner comes from.

You’re so focused on the what and not the how.

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2 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

I didn't now at that time that the AI kills were tracked, I have to quote myself again? I've used the paracesis, I've thinked "hey, that melee kills sure were the times I used the paracesis", I don't understand your point then. Now i'm building a valkyr to dont get any AI kills/abilities usage and keep my companion alive (because yes, I like to loot with fetch and i like to view the map when i move the warframe because you have to move the warframe or the enemy spawn goes to hell).

No, you don't have to. I'm just making sure this clears the air before other people do the same: take complete credit for A.I. Usage. 

You could simply do that with any warframe. Your companion has a bleed out time. They don't completely die unless you neglect to revive them. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)R3N36AD3 said:

No, you don't have to. I'm just making sure this clears the air before other people do the same: take complete credit for A.I. Usage. 

You could simply do that with any warframe. Your companion has a bleed out time. They don't completely die unless you neglect to revive them. 

I want to do it with valkyr, you have any problem with that? 😄

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2 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

I want to do it with valkyr, you have any problem with that? 😄

Nope. Just trying to uncomplicate your life.

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Just now, (PS4)R3N36AD3 said:

Nope. Just trying to uncomplicated your life.

Isn't complicated at all, ty for your concern 😄

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2 hours ago, Sovereign991 said:

Rev is also an invincible frame, who has % damage options for hard targets. Your hate is irrational gears, dunno where the hate-boner comes from.

 

20 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re so focused on the what and not the how.

Damn gears.. I thought you have a spidey sense whenever somebody mentions the word "Revenant" on any post, you pop up and hate-comment. But no one even mentioned Revenant in this post and you're here, someway somehow, you found a way to hate on him. What, did he kill your father? Or worst, kill your entire family and you're just seeking revenge to destroy him every opportunity you get? Everybody knows he's not perfect, not going to argue that, so you gotta chill, dude. This hate is not healthy. I'm genuinely concerned for your well being.

 

To the OP:

I'm apologizing for the derailment.

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Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

I will just wait for the results of the second test the OP said he will do with Valkyr, 

I'll post here and on a new thread with improvements (with builds, screencaps, video). I'm actually not sure why I didn't have to use lockdown at all (is like not using rivens, op mods on your frames, arcanes on your frames, etc) but due because is a complaint, i'll not use it at all too. Don't expect high damage tho.

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8 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

I'll post here and on a new thread with improvements (with builds, screencaps, video). I'm actually not sure why I didn't have to use lockdown at all (is like not using rivens, op mods on your frames, arcanes on your frames, etc) but due because is a complaint, i'll not use it at all too. Don't expect high damage tho.

The problem I am seeing is that you claiming major damage is from your amps,

if that is really the case then you not using lock down should not affect it. 

You should still be doing the same amount of damage. 

Rivens are for weapons, this is not a discussion of weapons. 

This is also according to you not a discussion about frames. 

Operators can use amps, focus and arcanes, so if you want to prove the point you are not doing your damage due to the lock down then you should stop using it and show similar results using only your Amp and vazarin focus. 

 

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11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The problem I am seeing is that you claiming major damage is from your amps,

if that is really the case then you not using lock down should not affect it. 

You should still be doing the same amount of damage. 

Rivens are for weapons, this is not a discussion of weapons. 

This is also according to you not a discussion about frames. 

Operators can use amps and arcanes, so if you want to prove the point you are not doing your damage due to the lock down then you should stop using it and show similar results using only your Amp. 

 

?? Where i say the "major damage" is from the amp?

I've answered "Yes and no, magus lockdown can't kill everything by itself in a long term mission, that's why I use more the amp"  to the question "Is Magus Lockdown your primary source of damage?"

You can't kill just with magus lockdown, you have to use the amp to "finish" the enemy under the efect, more than the damage what i find more usefull is the ability to keep em locked and get to the heads better, but of course is the main source of damage, but NOT ALL the damage source. It's pretty obivous i won't do the same amount of damage but I'll gain more survability due the armor buff of the second magus husk I'll put on use again. If you can quote me wherre im saying "
if you want to prove the point you are not doing your damage due to the lock down" i'll appreciate it, my point is "operator bad? Not at all", not "operator can nuke an entire mission without lockdown?" or "can the opertor compete with a warframe in terms of damage output?"

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Ok, I was able to finish valkyr prime with a set up that benefits my companion (kubrow chesa) and can save my ass if things get out of control. While I was leveling up her, I came with an idea. People were complaining about lockdown because de 60% damage beign "too much" (laughs in gara or equinox with millions of damage), so I thinked: what if I just use a rank 0? 15% of dmg but the same time of lock (the most important thing for me) isn't "broken" imo. That would be good for you or just want the test with 2 magus husk? I thinked about it and really doesnt feel right the fact I had to get rid of something that are avaible in the game because people thinks its too broken, the arcane adds a vital ability (the ability to do cc with any school) just like magus husk adds the ability of having armor at all (because the base armor is 25 according to the wiki, +200% of 25 isn't the same as +200% of 225). I prefer to ask because I really don't wanna do the effort of making a video or a post to have it "invalidated" for things like that.

TL;DR: You prefer a video with 2 magus husk rank 3 or with 1 magus husk rank 3 and a magus lockdown rank 0? Reasons above.

(according to the wiki 2 magus husk wasn't good as 1 husk and 1 vigor, I tried that setup in the past and felt weaker than 2 husk...)

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6 hours ago, xHeretic said:

Played as operator 1 h 30 mins on arbi, never died, doing the most damage, less dagame taken, my team mates died since the 43 excavator and in the end i had to extract because everyone except me died. Just a fiendly reminder of the potential of the operator to the vast part of the community who thinks the operator just sucks and can't do high level content (300+ lvl of enemies and I was still able to kill them with my amp)

This is your first paragraph of the post!

I don't know about you, but when I say I kill em with x, it means I killed em from their max health using just that weapon. Anything else is a kill assist. And you now say that is not what you were implying? 

34 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

?? Where i say the "major damage" is from the amp?

Please be clear on what exactly it is that you are trying to say.

Or remove it if you no longer feel it is correct, you can use the dash through if you still want to keep it in the post without deleting it, to avoid confusion. 

Lets look at the possible things OP mode can do :

Increase survivability : considering you are immune to damage in void mode and "dying" has no lasting effects (just transfer out again) you can improve your frames survivability sure, but the frame becomes immune to damage in passive mode (90%DR is active ability present) when transferred but what's the point if you don't 

How many times would you need to transfer back after dying would be a better indicator than damage absorbed. 

Do more damage : Amps do void damage (unless you use one of the element or physical arcanes to convert damage), this is a fixed amount and is not dissimilar to well modded weapons and can be good with some Crit bonuses. Is it useable? Absolutely, but is it better than regular weapons? Depends on the amp and weapon being compared. 

The magus lockdown does 60% of maximum health as damage, which can scale very well. Most things without armor or shields can usually be killed with two mines. Infested don't have armor outside of specific instances of those enemies that give that buff. This is by far better than most weapons at higher levels if you run in a CP squad. 

CC  : lock down puts things to "sleep" so they won't be targeting you, indirectly increasing your survivability as well.

 

Is OP mode good? Yes, no argument,

is it a valid replacement to playing with frames? In very specific instances only. 

 

Your current test :

Uses umbra - which kills enemies with a powerful weapon so you don't have to, (it also uses its scream to stun enemies, don't know if they patched that) 

Has infested - which do not have armor or shields reduction (unless ancient is present) and take full damage. Do not have long range attacks in most enemies so easier to avoid damage. 

Has lockdown - which is neutral against most infested flesh as a damage type but takes out more than half the health and stuns them. 

 

I am not saying OP is bad, I am saying your combination of above things makes him seem more powerful than he is. 

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12 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

This is your first paragraph of the post!

I don't know about you, but when I say I kill em with x, it means I killed em from their max health using just that weapon. Anything else is a kill assist. And you now say that is not what you were implying? 

Because I was able to kill them with the amp, but can't "one shot" them, took a while to kill things on 300+ and yes, with help of lockdown too, but i've NEVER said my amp was my primary source of damage, bacause that would be a lie. That was lockdown, with the amp i've just finished off the job, because a pencha with puncture and certus do a lot of damage on headshot

I'll be more clear in the future, thanks for your advice

P.S: would you mind to answer the question above your post? it's important to me have feedback on that

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1 hour ago, xHeretic said:

Ok, I was able to finish valkyr prime with a set up that benefits my companion (kubrow chesa) and can save my ass if things get out of control. While I was leveling up her, I came with an idea. People were complaining about lockdown because de 60% damage beign "too much" (laughs in gara or equinox with millions of damage), 

60% of max health, while other frames can do a lot more flat damage, you will reach a point where enemies literally have millions of points of health, that % damage is going to be a lot more effective at that time (assuming no armor on enemies) 

 

1 hour ago, xHeretic said:

so I thinked: what if I just use a rank 0? 15% of dmg but the same time of lock (the most important thing for me) isn't "broken" imo. That would be good for you or just want the test with 2 magus husk? I thinked about it and really doesnt feel right the fact I had to get rid of something that are avaible in the game because people thinks its too broken, the arcane adds a vital ability (the ability to do cc with any school) just like magus husk adds the ability of having armor at all (because the base armor is 25 according to the wiki, +200% of 25 isn't the same as +200% of 225). I prefer to ask because I really don't wanna do the effort of making a video or a post to have it "invalidated" for things like that.
 

Magus lock down at R0 has a very small radius and only holds 2 enemies, not sure your primary objective of CC will be achieved. 

Once again, better have an objective ready first, if you want to show survivability (of operator) you will need to count the number of times you die as operator/ need to transference out. Valkyr is already super tanky due to her base armor, not sure if a good frame for testing if you want to show it increase survivability of a frame. 

Also husk adds flat 100 armor to operator not a percentage, same with vigor, any passive bonuses from schools affect these values,

every 300 armor adds 100% of visible health (shown on hud) to the EHP. Leaving it to someone else to go into the calculations of what is better 2xhusk or 1husk + 1vigor (and which focus) 

In short, I am not sure what it is you are trying to prove. Better to have that along with success criteria noted. 

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11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

60% of max health, while other frames can do a lot more flat damage, you will reach a point where enemies literally have millions of points of health, that % damage is going to be a lot more effective at that time (assuming no armor on enemies) 

And no shield, because shields dimishes the puncture damage, so, with a team with full cp, sr or the easiest infested mobs the arcane has the full 60% dmg
 

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Magus lock down at R0 has a very small radius and only holds 2 enemies, not sure your primary objective of CC will be achieved. 

More than enpugh, I can recast again and assure the headshot
 

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Valkyr is already super tanky due to her base armor, not sure if a good frame for testing if you want to show it increase survivability of a frame. 

 

Wait... What? I thought you have pretty obvious at this point: I'm not talking about "survivability of a frame" in any case, the transference thing is a good way of meassure imo and that can be counted with a video, the point of valkyr is assure the survavility of the companion as I said multpile times (a kubrow chesa) and save my ass if things get out of control, not the warframe itself, if that was the case i simply would go inaros, the best lazy tank of the game.
 

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also husk adds flat 100 armor to operator not a percentage, same with vigor, any passive bonuses from schools affect these values,

Let me quote myself again: "because the base armor is 25 according to the wiki, +200% of 25 isn't the same as +200% of 225" 200% is from basilisk scales, an unairu waybound ( https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Focus/Unairu#Basilisk_Scales ), and yes, I know the arcane give 100+ flat armor, that's why I said first  25 and then 225, because 25 is the default armor without the arcanes and 225 is with 2 magus husk. I don't understand your point of saying something without reading.

 

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

In short, I am not sure what it is you are trying to prove. Better to have that along with success criteria noted. 

"operator bad? not at all"
"operator just used in very specific things? not at all"
"can the operator do things on high level tiers? yes"

There, that's what i'm trying to prove, I was thinking on removing magus lockdown due people saying things like "its just lockdown all the way down, easy", im trying to prove the opposite, I think 2 magus husk or 1 husk and 1 magus lockdown r0 are the best options to prove the point without "breaking the game" as poeple (like you) think, that's why im asking what of those two options seems viable to do "tests" because I don't wanna go through the effort of making a video, uploading, meassuring the data obtained (number of times I go back to the frame due "dying" as operator, number of kills, average dmg, etc) just to give something and then people will say my effort is nothing but "lel magus lockdown" or "lel tanky frame" or any thing of the comments above. I would do test of arbi with the 3 builds (ML r3 MH r3 / ML r0 MH r3 / MH r3 x 2) but that would take pretty much longer time because the missions spawns random and people don't wanna survivals because "too easy" and that's what spawn the most. I'm not sure why i'm writting this right now, i'm pretty sure you'll don't read it at all and the next quote you'll still trying to put on me things I literally never said or implied. Thanks for your help tho, that thing about the operator dying and going back was a nice a idea.

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21 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So how much time, effort, and focus farming was required to reach this? Because honestly the biggest problem with Operators is that they require far more investment than frames. And they aren’t exactly the most rewarding for that investment.

^ this, plus they are niche, yeah the OP can do all that, but you can just as easily use a bog standard warframe and trainwreck a gametype just as easily.

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20 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s either because someone really wants me to look wrong on this particular subject. Or it’s some guy who’s very keen on trying to make me look bad because I hate Revenant with a passion and call him the worst frame in the game. But hey free rep.

Wasn't me! You actually got an upvote from me because I am currently working toward just one waybound... And my gosh, a million focus is nuts!

You have made some very good points about Revenant... At one point, you even educated me about his lame passive. At the same time, you also claimed some things that didn't really match my experience... So I called you out on those claims! I think you're good to criticize theme discrepancies and oddities in his design that don't match how he plays. But you also outright ignore the great success players have with him. He works extremely well even with his many ability oddities.

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Operators aren’t that bad but they obviously aren’t as good as warframes 

and saying arcanes don’t count is like saying you can’t test frames with mods 

Magus lockdown keeps enemies around you from blowing you up when you come out of void mode which is virtually invaluable

and amps can get in some good damage as in they get the job done

so no operator play isn’t bad they do alright on their own but not anything too spectacular 

 

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6 hours ago, xHeretic said:

Wait... What? I thought you have pretty obvious at this point: I'm not talking about "survivability of a frame" in any case, the transference thing is a good way of meassure imo and that can be counted with a video, the point of valkyr is assure the survavility of the companion as I said multpile times (a kubrow chesa) and save my ass if things get out of control, not the warframe itself, if that was the case i simply would go inaros, the best lazy tank of the game.

 

Just making sure, maybe add that to the list of objectives - save kubrow without leaving OP mode. 

6 hours ago, xHeretic said:

.

Let me quote myself again: "because the base armor is 25 according to the wiki, +200% of 25 isn't the same as +200% of 225" 200% is from basilisk scales, an unairu waybound ( https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Focus/Unairu#Basilisk_Scales ), and yes, I know the arcane give 100+ flat armor, that's why I said first  25 and then 225, because 25 is the default armor without the arcanes and 225 is with 2 magus husk. I don't understand your point of saying something without reading.

It was what I said after that statement you quoted (correlating the EHP and armor values) cause you believe 2 husk is better than 1husk +1vigor, and were referring the wiki instead of making your own calculations. Maybe take your own advice and read the whole thing first. 

You are free to use either, just be aware of the EHP of each approach. 

6 hours ago, xHeretic said:

 

operator bad? not at all"

"operator just used in very specific things? not at all""

can the operator do things on high level tiers? yes".

Too vague. 

"will attempt to do 1 hour solo survival on mot without dying once (or dying max 3 times) using exclusively my operator" is a better objective, has clear success criteria and has a location with mix of enemies - you can make up your own of course. 

Additional sub objectives:

Don't use any life support towers, 

Keep life support above 50% at all times

Don't let kubrow be downed. 

 

Again just examples , but you get the idea. 

 

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