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Senguash

Gauss sucks, let me elaborate.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Except Gauss provides probably the biggest increase to fire rate, attack speed, etc.

Have you tried playing high strength Volt, Valkyr, Wisp, or Toxin Chroma?

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3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Have you tried playing high strength Volt, Valkyr, Wisp, or Toxin Chroma?

Dude I’m on console. Give me like a week.

But from what I’ve seen from his gameplay he provides the strongest speed increase buffs to all aspects. Attack speed, fire rate, reload, holster speed. And doesn’t just benefit 1 or 2 of them.

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vor 41 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

Dude I’m on console. Give me like a week.

But from what I’ve seen from his gameplay he provides the strongest speed increase buffs to all aspects. Attack speed, fire rate, reload, holster speed. And doesn’t just benefit 1 or 2 of them.

Only with decent battery charge.

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13 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Gauss is actually designed for playing the game and is being criticised for it.

I recently (before gauss came out though) found enjoyment in Harrow. Very active gameplay compared to so many other frames and also offers nice stuff. Heals and energy for every kill and well, speed buffs. The more enemies i savage with my weapons, the more effective i am for me and my team. That's cool. So what i wanna say is that I don't think that Gauss is being criticized for having to play the game but because playing the game with Gauss doesn't show too much of an effect/not reward enough. I gotta spend lots of time not killing enemies and running around in order to charge my battery only to end up for some bit of duration left for those sweet speed buffs. I don't like how +duration also brings a negative. Narrow Minded already cuts your range.

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On 2019-09-09 at 7:56 PM, Senguash said:

Remove the holding mechanic, make the dash at least 3x longer while taking the same amount of time as it does now, and you'll have an ability that's more unique, rather just a worse version of volt speed with extra effects.

Nah. This makes it worse.

Better idea:

Press 1 to toggle Mach Rush mode.

When mode is active, tapping shift turns roll into a quick Mach Rush dash forward. Holding shift turns sprint into the long distance Mach Rush.

You can also shift left, right, and back, to Mach Rush dash in those directions. This makes more sense with his gunplay. You can quick strafe side to side while unleashing volleys from his rocket launcher guns. This will be an improvement over the current awkward synergy between his Mach Rush and rocket launcher guns, where you just have to hold back on the rushing about, and slow down when shooting, to prevent rushing forward into a missile and getting caught in the self-damage from your own missile.

When mode is not active, tap shift and hold shift remain as roll and sprint, i.e. like normal warframe movement

 

Then adding on Redline being active, with Mach Rush mode active, quick tap shift becomes a Flash Step from anime.

 

As for energy costs. The energy is deducted only when you quick tap shift or hold shift during active Mach Rush mode, and trigger the special dashes. Turning the mode on and off, by itself, does not cost energy.

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4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I recently (before gauss came out though) found enjoyment in Harrow. Very active gameplay compared to so many other frames and also offers nice stuff. Heals and energy for every kill and well, speed buffs. The more enemies i savage with my weapons, the more effective i am for me and my team. That's cool. So what i wanna say is that I don't think that Gauss is being criticized for having to play the game but because playing the game with Gauss doesn't show too much of an effect/not reward enough. I gotta spend lots of time not killing enemies and running around in order to charge my battery only to end up for some bit of duration left for those sweet speed buffs. I don't like how +duration also brings a negative. Narrow Minded already cuts your range.

Well, yes. There are other frames that reward active play.

 

And you don't really need to just run around - as long as your battery is past the redline, then you're gaining %age at the same rate and you're getting benefits like the increased Melee damage when using Kinetic Plating. As long as you tap Mach Rush or Thermal Sunder every ten seconds or so (which is plenty possible if you're actively moving to engage enemies), you should stay above the line pretty easily, provided you started from a full charge. Max Duration does also make the battery drain slower. Think of it as making the battery larger - there's more stuff in it, so it takes longer to fill, but you have more to work with.

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16 hours ago, Brucely said:

Maybe it does, even with modding, but at some point boosting that stuff gets into marginal differences or diminishing returns. And still, keeping the buffs to only that makes the ability too one-dimensional, which really is the greater sin in my view, especially when it comes to ultimates.

At some point everything gets diminishing returns.

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5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

At some point everything gets diminishing returns.

Yep. Your point is?

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TBH, Gauss feels like a Frankenstein's monster made of crippled, twisted versions of other frames' abilities with additional bells and whistles attached.

Gimmicky and overly dependent on synergies does not translate to fun, unfortunately. 

His Mag Rush feels like someone started designing a fun augment for Rhino's Charge (hold to charge indefinitely, AoE on impact) and decided to cripple it by per-distance-traveled energy cost and bad controls/visuals before turning into a standalone ability. 

His Kinetic Plating is for a lack of better term, a cheap Warding Halo ripoff with more dependencies and hurdles than usefulness.

His Sunder is a poor man's Avalanche/Fire Blast, worse in pretty much every regard - and you know that if your ability is worse than something from Ember's kit, you're screwed. Hard.

Finally, his Redline is a costly, limited bandaid to his other three abilities that barely solves anything and should've been built into them by default. Almost like many warframe augments. 

 

Other than that... Cool visuals, love the extensions that pop out on Redline activation, but he's too much of a gimmicky sidegrade in every way to be interesting or good.

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vor 14 Stunden schrieb Loza03:

And you don't really need to just run around - as long as your battery is past the redline, then you're gaining %age at the same rate and you're getting benefits like the increased Melee damage when using Kinetic Plating. As long as you tap Mach Rush or Thermal Sunder every ten seconds or so (which is plenty possible if you're actively moving to engage enemies), you should stay above the line pretty easily, provided you started from a full charge. Max Duration does also make the battery drain slower. Think of it as making the battery larger - there's more stuff in it, so it takes longer to fill, but you have more to work with.

I am pretty sure that your % gain decreases with battery level dropping. That means the Redline % rise faster at 100% battery than at 81% battery. This is what I observed. Also I am not sure if more duration makes the battery drain slower. I sit at 254% Duration and battery levels drop pretty fast even with only Redline active.

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On 2019-09-10 at 4:21 AM, Loza03 said:

Gauss is actually designed for playing the game and is being criticised for it.

Not in the least. His battery economy is designed to keep you busy for the sake of keeping you busy and pushes you into spamming abilities and running around not because it benefits your gameplay situation, but because the battery forces you to. You can't focus on actually playing the game because you have to micromanage and sidestep around your goal constantly.

On 2019-09-10 at 4:21 AM, Loza03 said:

The standard for this game - being able to access abilities that enable near unlimited tankiness (or other powers) without consequences or restrictions - is the actual bad design as it basically rewards lack of engagement with the systems.

 

That may be so, but that ship has already sailed. Unless they nerf every frame that fits this description, Gauss will remain subpar. Gauss asks players for more and gives less than other frames in return. Only people who really don't care about performance are going to be satisfied with that. If they want to do a high maintenance frame, in the game's current state the results have to be substantial for it to work.

But that's just one of the reason why Gauss isn't right. Abilities costing multiple resources at the same time - that's just ridiculous. It's like Hildryn still had an energy bar and needed to use both shields and energy for her abilities, or if Baruuk's 4 drained energy on top of filling restraint, or if Nidus' 3 and 4 cost energy on top of mutation stacks. Gauss' battery might as well not even be there and the only thing that'd change is that he'd be less of a chore to play. Then there's the conflict of interests between Kinetic Plating and Redline. Using them together is always a detriment to the player save for the small window of time when Redline's counter is at 100% and all battery drain stops. And then, as I've mentioned before, the fact that his 1 and 3 charge the battery completely overshadows their actual purpose and effects as abilities.

Take Nidus for example, the first frame with a secondary resource. Virulence is his primary means of getting stacks. And what else does it do? Deal pretty good damage. That's something you generally want to do in Warframe. Now, I personally don't find it too compelling, mainly because I just have weapons that can do better than Virulence. But for some players, especially ones earlier in the game, it's a really good option. They could be using it all the time and be happy with it even if the entire stacks ordeal didn't exist to further motivate your Virulence usage. Mach Rush can be fun to play with, but it's every function other than mobility is entirely negligible, and in gameplay you don't actually need to dash around as often as his battery would have you. Thermal Sunder's damage is completely underwhelming. It can work kinda decent as crowd control, but that you need to repeat even less often than mobility.

Furthermore, other than this battery dependency, his abilities don't play into one another in the least. Take Nidus as an example again. Larva pulls enemies together, which naturally benefits Virulence's stack generation - but notice here how they're both perfectly capable of benefiting you on their own as well. Link is very powerful on its own, but it also gives you an additional free cast of Virulence. Ravenous is a good survivability and support tool, and the maggots it creates explode when hit by Virulence to generate even more stacks. Everything is connected for the player's benefit. Gauss' 'synergies' are limited to Redline.. and even when Redline is active, they just don't work if your battery isn't above the limiter - which of course further encourages mindless spamming. The armor strip from blast version of Thermal Sunder, although already utterly underwhelming even at top performance, has the audacity to scale with battery level. A cast at 80% battery gets you 0 strip. A cast at 100% gets you 50% armor strip. You know what that feels like? Like if Larva could only pull 1 enemy at first, and then gained another target for every 10 stacks that Nidus has. But in this scenario the stacks also constantly degenerate as if you were standing inside a nullifier bubble. Some 'synergy' it is.

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9 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That you don’t have a point either.

I do have a point though. Sorry if it wasn't clear before, so I'll repeat.

When comparing Redline's buffs to Harrow's Penance, or Wisp's Haste Mote, sure, Redline might have the highest buffs to fire rate, etc. But, that's all it has, and at some point buffing those things has diminishing returns, like using too much ammo, or not being able to click as fast as it can actually fire. Another way of looking at it, is that at some point you have more than enough fire rate, attack speed, and so on, and anything more than that is excessive.

Redline, Penance, and Haste Mote can all provide you more than enough attack speed. Aside from that, Penance heals, and Haste Mote shares buffs with the team, two things that are useful despite diminishing returns, while Redline's other bonus is making buffing his own abilities, which doesn't fundamentally add that much utility to them.

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9 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Not in the least. His battery economy is designed to keep you busy for the sake of keeping you busy and pushes you into spamming abilities and running around not because it benefits your gameplay situation, but because the battery forces you to. You can't focus on actually playing the game because you have to micromanage and sidestep around your goal constantly.

Managing the game state is playing the game. And you don't, frankly, need to sidestep around your goal, because Mach Rush is not a pure mobility tool. It is, in fact, one of his main CC options. If you don't have redline up, getting to 80% is honestly a complete non-issue since it charges very fast. And if you do, you should probably be taking advantage of that reduced Mach Rush cost to ensure that as few things are shooting you as possible.

15 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

That may be so, but that ship has already sailed. Unless they nerf every frame that fits this description, Gauss will remain subpar. Gauss asks players for more and gives less than other frames in return. Only people who really don't care about performance are going to be satisfied with that. If they want to do a high maintenance frame, in the game's current state the results have to be substantial for it to work.

Reminder that when they reworked Wukong they nerfed his ability to do this. Saryn, too, whilst probably over tuned can't just turn on two powers and watch the fireworks in the majority of cases, she has to work for the outcome. So, DE are already slowly working towards the 'nerf all the frames that fit this description', even if they're doing it in Valve-time.

21 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

But that's just one of the reason why Gauss isn't right. Abilities costing multiple resources at the same time - that's just ridiculous. It's like Hildryn still had an energy bar and needed to use both shields and energy for her abilities, or if Baruuk's 4 drained energy on top of filling restraint, or if Nidus' 3 and 4 cost energy on top of mutation stacks. Gauss' battery might as well not even be there and the only thing that'd change is that he'd be less of a chore to play. Then there's the conflict of interests between Kinetic Plating and Redline. Using them together is always a detriment to the player save for the small window of time when Redline's counter is at 100% and all battery drain stops. And then, as I've mentioned before, the fact that his 1 and 3 charge the battery completely overshadows their actual purpose and effects as abilities.

There should be a conflict of interest between Kinetic Plating and Redline. Superior Defence and Superior Offense both being readily available at the same time is poor design since it enable players to be good at everything - and again, all too common. 

The abilities also don't cost battery - enhancing them does. You can have redline and kinetic plating with no battery. They'll just be terrible.

33 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Take Nidus for example, the first frame with a secondary resource. Virulence is his primary means of getting stacks. And what else does it do? Deal pretty good damage. That's something you generally want to do in Warframe. Now, I personally don't find it too compelling, mainly because I just have weapons that can do better than Virulence. But for some players, especially ones earlier in the game, it's a really good option. They could be using it all the time and be happy with it even if the entire stacks ordeal didn't exist to further motivate your Virulence usage. Mach Rush can be fun to play with, but it's every function other than mobility is entirely negligible, and in gameplay you don't actually need to dash around as often as his battery would have you. Thermal Sunder's damage is completely underwhelming. It can work kinda decent as crowd control, but that you need to repeat even less often than mobility.

Mach Rush is A: a fast CC option both through the wall explosion and the impact B: a quick way to cancel many hard animations and C: an approach and mobility option. It's a 15 energy (7.5 in redline) ability, what are you expecting?

43 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Furthermore, other than this battery dependency, his abilities don't play into one another in the least. Take Nidus as an example again. Larva pulls enemies together, which naturally benefits Virulence's stack generation - but notice here how they're both perfectly capable of benefiting you on their own as well. Link is very powerful on its own, but it also gives you an additional free cast of Virulence. Ravenous is a good survivability and support tool, and the maggots it creates explode when hit by Virulence to generate even more stacks. Everything is connected for the player's benefit. Gauss' 'synergies' are limited to Redline.. and even when Redline is active, they just don't work if your battery isn't above the limiter - which of course further encourages mindless spamming. The armor strip from blast version of Thermal Sunder, although already utterly underwhelming even at top performance, has the audacity to scale with battery level. A cast at 80% battery gets you 0 strip. A cast at 100% gets you 50% armor strip. You know what that feels like? Like if Larva could only pull 1 enemy at first, and then gained another target for every 10 stacks that Nidus has. But in this scenario the stacks also constantly degenerate as if you were standing inside a nullifier bubble. Some 'synergy' it is.

The abilities don't play into each other directly - instead, they play into the overall maintenance of being faster than your opponent. In a sense, Nidus is the polar opposite to Gauss - he's designed to occupy one space religiously. Gauss is expected to keep moving. That's why his Mach Rush is so incentivised - you are punished for slowing down, just as Nidus is punished for going out of the range of his Ravenous and Parasitic Link.

It makes sense for Nidus's powers to play directly into each other for a combo and build up over a long time - he's intended to stick to an area and 'take root' like the infestation. Gauss, meanwhile, is pretty much built to never do that. Staying still long enough to set up a combo is antithetical to the 'GO GO GO' design. So his abilities synergise with that, rather than each other. Thermal Sunder is an exception, but IIRC they said it was quite experimental.

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19 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Managing the game state is playing the game. And you don't, frankly, need to sidestep around your goal, because Mach Rush is not a pure mobility tool. It is, in fact, one of his main CC options.

It's not managing the game state. It's managing the battery. Also, calling Mach Rush a CC tool is like killing a melee slam one. Sure, it kinda is. But comparing it to any real option is embarrassing.

19 hours ago, Loza03 said:

If you don't have redline up, getting to 80% is honestly a complete non-issue since it charges very fast. And if you do, you should probably be taking advantage of that reduced Mach Rush cost to ensure that as few things are shooting you as possible.

Without using Redline, there's honestly no reason to pick Gauss over any other frame. The dash is a potentially fun gimmick, but this was supposed to be the selling point. And that's a problem. I don't need to dash all over the place to make sure few enemies will be shooting me, but Redline forces me to, especially when combined with Kinetic Plating. I doubt that the longevity of a frame that forces you into one specific course of action, that is on top of that spammy and feels completely arbitrary, is going to be high.

19 hours ago, Loza03 said:

If you don't have redline up, getting to 80% is honestly a complete non-issue since it charges very fast. And if you do, you should probably be taking advantage of that reduced Mach Rush cost to ensure that as few things are shooting you as possible.

Defy was nerfed because it completely overshadowed the rest of his kit into irrelevance to the point where you might as well have called the frame itself 'Defy', and they improved the rest of his kit by a large margin. The clone pretty much doubles your damage output, triples it against single targets that you mark, or even more than that if you take CO combinations into account. Cloud Walker is one of the best mobility tools in the game and that alone makes it worth using, even if it didn't heal you and the clone on top of that. And the staff's damage potential is so high that it by far exceeds Wukong's ability to survive. Ironically, now Defy is the ability that's overshadowed by the rest of his kit.

As for the rest, you don't make a convincing case when Wisp, with her strong, team-wide and virtually infinite buffs rolled into one ability, was just released before Gauss. Revenant and Hildryn also are fairly recent, and they can be just as immortal as Wukong used to be. Only Baruuk comes close to having the kind of limitations Gauss has, and even he is easily better when it comes to frame performance to player investment ratio.

19 hours ago, Loza03 said:

There should be a conflict of interest between Kinetic Plating and Redline. Superior Defence and Superior Offense both being readily available at the same time is poor design since it enable players to be good at everything - and again, all too common. 

Except even without they conflict, they'd still be subpar options. Kinetic Plating's capability for handling bursts is worse than any other defensive buff ability. Even it's top performance outside of Redline is worse than the standard 90% DR ability. Redline might have high numbers, but firerate buffs fall off in usefulness much more easily than damage ones, simply because they only improve your time to kill, but not your ammo economy. Excessive ones like Redline can also greatly increase your recoil and cause you to waste more ammo, as every small window of time where your aim isn't accurate enough allows you to waste more ammo than normal. The value of this buff simply doesn't match the management that Redline requires.

And besides, with the way how enemies steeply scale both their offense and defense, having both is important if a frame is to stay relevant at higher level content. Though defense is more important, as there are far more ways for a player to go around enemy EHP scaling than there are to protect yourself from oneshots - which further devalues Redline's effects.

Again, no matter what design standards you're trying to hold Gauss to, they simply don't match the state of the game - and going against it is a recipe for the frame to start gathering dust as soon as the novelty wears off and then get a rework in 3 or 4 years. I'm really not asking for him to be better than everything that we have, all I want for him is to be comparable.

20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The abilities also don't cost battery - enhancing them does. You can have redline and kinetic plating with no battery. They'll just be terrible.

If that were the case, I'd have the option to control the level they perform at and how much battery they're spending. I don't. If the battery is there, they take it, regardless of my opinion. Just the fact that they can be active without it doesn't mean they don't cost battery. And that's also disregarding the passive drain that's a penalty for having Kinetic Plating or Redline active, anyway.

20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

The abilities don't play into each other directly - instead, they play into the overall maintenance of being faster than your opponent. In a sense, Nidus is the polar opposite to Gauss - he's designed to occupy one space religiously.

I don't see how this difference is an excuse for Gauss' kit to be a bunch of things roughly glued together instead of a cohesive whole like Nidus'.

20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Gauss is expected to keep moving. That's why his Mach Rush is so incentivised - you are punished for slowing down

See, that's another thing. I was thinking about why it's so annoying, and it's mostly because you have to use it as an ability. Using your 1 button to move around is far from comfortable and intuitive. An alternative binding would be some workaround, but if one frame's design requires messing with your keybindings while no others do, then that design is a failure from that point on. I've seen someone suggest making the ability a toggle and when it's on, replace slide with current Mach Rush's functionality, since slide is also something you can only tap for a small burst of speed or hold for a longer time. Augmenting an existing and somewhat similar mobility option would be much more natural and conductive towards making the playstyle feel like an augmented version of what you already do on other frames, instead of a clunky alternative stuck on above all your other controls and forced on the player by his battery economy. There would be some kinks to work out with bullet jumping and the like, but it'd be a major improvement.

20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

you are punished for slowing down, just as Nidus is punished for going out of the range of his Ravenous and Parasitic Link.

There's a big difference here. Nidus can perform every gameplay action he might need to do on his ground, and he can easily plan for when to move. And Gauss? If you shoot, you slow down. If you aim, you slow down more. If you melee, you slow down. If you hack or activate a life support tower, you're standing still. And it all immediately costs you battery due to the passive drain from your abilities. Virtually every conceivable, everyday gameplay action is an additional burden on his economy. That's a huge factor in why it feels more like playing the battery than playing Warframe.

20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Staying still long enough to set up a combo is antithetical to the 'GO GO GO' design. So his abilities synergise with that, rather than each other.

Which is just a fancy way of saying they don't synergize. Not every interaction between abilities has to be slow and require meticulous setup, you know.

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2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

It's not managing the game state. It's managing the battery. Also, calling Mach Rush a CC tool is like killing a melee slam one. Sure, it kinda is. But comparing it to any real option is embarrassing.

I think this reply is a bit cheeky.  I don't believe the person is calling it a cc tool.  As he does elaborate all the functions of the ability later on.  I think the point being made here was that it's a mobility tool that has cc.  Both of which are Gauss's primary tools for survival design wise.  Sure, if you compare Mach rush's cc to something like rhino stomp it's going to seem embarassing.  But it's comparable to both banshee's sonic boom and Mag's pull.  Both abilities being noted for pretty decent and cheap cc.  Gauss gets that on top of it being a mobility tool.  So his 1 as a tool overall is very solid.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

Without using Redline, there's honestly no reason to pick Gauss over any other frame. The dash is a potentially fun gimmick, but this was supposed to be the selling point. And that's a problem. I don't need to dash all over the place to make sure few enemies will be shooting me, but Redline forces me to, especially when combined with Kinetic Plating. I doubt that the longevity of a frame that forces you into one specific course of action, that is on top of that spammy and feels completely arbitrary, is going to be high.

I feel like the bit about redline is also a bit cheeky.  You could say without x ability there's no reason to use said frame over other frames for more than just Gauss.  I believe the only thing Gauss actively forces players to do is move.  Which you're pretty much doing for most modes anyway.  Gauss's kit can be played with all abilities in mind.  But he can also be focused into a speed running frame for missions like exterm/capture if you spec range and strength to nuke the star chart.  Or he can be focused into being a DPS monster against non standard mission things like profit taker and tridelons (both of which he's more than capable of soloing like many other frames.)  As for his gimmick/selling point I think that's subjective.  Mach rush was front and center because it's his most flashy and visibly obvious ability.  But if you asked me i'd say Redline was his gimmick.  As it drastically increases his kit and overall performance.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:
 

Defy was nerfed because it completely overshadowed the rest of his kit into irrelevance to the point where you might as well have called the frame itself 'Defy', and they improved the rest of his kit by a large margin. The clone pretty much doubles your damage output, triples it against single targets that you mark, or even more than that if you take CO combinations into account. Cloud Walker is one of the best mobility tools in the game and that alone makes it worth using, even if it didn't heal you and the clone on top of that. And the staff's damage potential is so high that it by far exceeds Wukong's ability to survive. Ironically, now Defy is the ability that's overshadowed by the rest of his kit.

Eh.  Defy being changed had as much to do with it being blatently broken as it did with kit design.  You're both right here.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

As for the rest, you don't make a convincing case when Wisp, with her strong, team-wide and virtually infinite buffs rolled into one ability, was just released before Gauss. Revenant and Hildryn also are fairly recent, and they can be just as immortal as Wukong used to be. Only Baruuk comes close to having the kind of limitations Gauss has, and even he is easily better when it comes to frame performance to player investment ratio.

Except wisp isn't a meta pick for anything and the survivability argument is basically irrelevant when you can mod anyframe to be nearly unkillable especially with a complementary operator.  Defy's power to interactive ratio was heavily one sided which iirc is something DE is actively against.  They aren't going around smashing straight up power level into the ground but rather forcing player interaction to have said power.  Revenant's immortal tool might be a fire and forget ability but the kit interaction with the game forces you to constantly use your abilities to refresh it.  Hyldrin's is a built in passive.  But you're using your abilities as maintenance for your shields so you can continually use the passive.  Wisp admittingly doesn't need to do much for her ability buffs.  But you're either forced to sit in one spot (ala nidus) or have carefully and constantly have strong placements to move about with your buffs.  And her buffs are no where near as strong survivability wise as other defensive tools mentioned here.

As for the comparison of baruuk I agree on it.  He's the only other frame in the game that matches the amount of casting being done for general upkeep.  But I disagree about Baruuk being better off investment wise.  His 4 is entirely irrelevant.  The only shining factor of baruuk is his layers of DR.  Which is something you gain benefit from passively and doesn't actively improve what your kit is doing or your own gameplay.  Gauss is better because his 4 makes all of his abilities much better in addition to being a dps machine.  All of which drastically improve both player and kit performance.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

Except even without they conflict, they'd still be subpar options. Kinetic Plating's capability for handling bursts is worse than any other defensive buff ability. Even it's top performance outside of Redline is worse than the standard 90% DR ability. Redline might have high numbers, but firerate buffs fall off in usefulness much more easily than damage ones, simply because they only improve your time to kill, but not your ammo economy. Excessive ones like Redline can also greatly increase your recoil and cause you to waste more ammo, as every small window of time where your aim isn't accurate enough allows you to waste more ammo than normal. The value of this buff simply doesn't match the management that Redline requires.

Kinetic plating is worse in straight up tanking on it's own but comes with not only the potential to be immune to most sources of damage but comes with utility.  Where as other DR sources usually don't.  In kinetic platings case it's energy based on damage rather than health loss and the immunity to staggers and hard cc.  Both of which are indirect methods to help you survive.  Considering the goal of Gauss is to move and these things help him be able to move without being hindered that's substantial for Gauss.

I also disagree with your point on redline as it entirely depends on what the mod setup is.  If you're going full elemental with no serration then team damage buffs like Chroma's are more worth it.  But if you're going with Serration then damage buffs like rhino's roar is more beneficial.  I mention this because Gauss can slot vigarus swap and arcane rage to make up for the fact that he doesn't have a built in damage buff.  You can take the Diku bow with Gauss and out DPS a damage buffer frame against edilon's that's using your typical rubico prime setup.  And you don't even need the swap and rage to do so in a team comp.  But solo wise that would be your route to go.  Ammo argument is a rather weak one.  ammo is never a problem even with the new weapons if you happen to run a certain sentinel.  And even without that you'd be hard pressed to expend all of your ammo with a majority of weapons out there unless you're doing endurance runs.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

And besides, with the way how enemies steeply scale both their offense and defense, having both is important if a frame is to stay relevant at higher level content. Though defense is more important, as there are far more ways for a player to go around enemy EHP scaling than there are to protect yourself from oneshots - which further devalues Redline's effects.

Again, no matter what design standards you're trying to hold Gauss to, they simply don't match the state of the game - and going against it is a recipe for the frame to start gathering dust as soon as the novelty wears off and then get a rework in 3 or 4 years. I'm really not asking for him to be better than everything that we have, all I want for him is to be comparable.

I'd argue a kit's defensive capabilities is far less relevant these days considering how easy it is to slot in mods like adaptation or rolling guard combined with operators and their arcanes along side OG arcanes being a lot easier to obtain these days.  You can slot Gauss with rolling guard and adaptation rather easily due to his stat investment and easily tackle world bosses solo.  And you can drop out rolling guard for standard missions.  Gauss's built in energy gain with kinetic plating and a rage/adrenaline mod are also easy to slot in along side these things and provide you with more than enough energy to keep casting for eternity which keeps his survivability covered.  Because of these things and Gauss's dps capabilities he's more than capable of excelling at end game content.  He just doesn't bring much value to a team.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

 

I don't see how this difference is an excuse for Gauss' kit to be a bunch of things roughly glued together instead of a cohesive whole like Nidus'.

I personally think people overrate Nidus in terms of design.  He's ultimately not a strong pick until you start playing content that DE themselves don't balance around.  His capability potential is wasted on anything less.  Also I think your point is a matter of perspective rather than fact.  blatently put both frame's abilities are key to surviving.  Just because Nidus's way of going about it comes off as simpler/easier to manage doesn't mean the way his kit is done is empirically better than Gauss's situation.  The difference was noted to inform not convince.  at least that's how it came off to me.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

See, that's another thing. I was thinking about why it's so annoying, and it's mostly because you have to use it as an ability. Using your 1 button to move around is far from comfortable and intuitive. An alternative binding would be some workaround, but if one frame's design requires messing with your keybindings while no others do, then that design is a failure from that point on. I've seen someone suggest making the ability a toggle and when it's on, replace slide with current Mach Rush's functionality, since slide is also something you can only tap for a small burst of speed or hold for a longer time. Augmenting an existing and somewhat similar mobility option would be much more natural and conductive towards making the playstyle feel like an augmented version of what you already do on other frames, instead of a clunky alternative stuck on above all your other controls and forced on the player by his battery economy. There would be some kinks to work out with bullet jumping and the like, but it'd be a major improvement.

Agree to disagree here.  I can't speak on feeling of control here.  But from watching his kit being used to take on profit taker and understanding how to use Mach rush with parkour 2.0 it seems fine to me.  Maybe people just havent figured out how to use the two together yet.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

There's a big difference here. Nidus can perform every gameplay action he might need to do on his ground, and he can easily plan for when to move. And Gauss? If you shoot, you slow down. If you aim, you slow down more. If you melee, you slow down. If you hack or activate a life support tower, you're standing still. And it all immediately costs you battery due to the passive drain from your abilities. Virtually every conceivable, everyday gameplay action is an additional burden on his economy. That's a huge factor in why it feels more like playing the battery than playing Warframe.

Actually that's where you're wrong factually.  You can shoot and aim and still be considered sprinting as far as the meter does.  Same with jumping.  Melee and object interactions are the only things that truly force you to halt in order to accomplish something.  And the drain here is slowed more significantly (with higher duration builds in mind) the higher your redline % is at in conjunction with your battery.  Simply put you're far less penalized for not moving in regards to the passive drains of either/both abilities the better you are at maintaining your battery.  As even redline's % itself builds faster the longer you can keep your battery up.

2 hours ago, vFlitz said:

Which is just a fancy way of saying they don't synergize. Not every interaction between abilities has to be slow and require meticulous setup, you know.

This last bit isn't touching the last chunk quoted here.  Just using it to clarify.  My post isn't meant to say that Gauss doesn't need some adjustments.  Rather these are just me wanting to respond to aspects of your argument just for the sake of discussion.

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44 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Agree to disagree here.  I can't speak on feeling of control here.  But from watching his kit being used to take on profit taker and understanding how to use Mach rush with parkour 2.0 it seems fine to me.  Maybe people just havent figured out how to use the two together yet.

The animation cancels and possibilities for connecting it with other maneuvers are all the more reason for it to use an input method that is more readily available than an ability button that is out of the way and can't be used in conjunction with other mobility inputs comfortably. 

29 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Actually that's where you're wrong factually.  You can shoot and aim and still be considered sprinting as far as the meter does.  Same with jumping.  Melee and object interactions are the only things that truly force you to halt in order to accomplish something.  And the drain here is slowed more significantly (with higher duration builds in mind) the higher your redline % is at in conjunction with your battery.

The battery gain from movement is actually based on horizontal speed. Easy to see as when you bullet jump straight up you get nothing, while jumping forward will fill the meter. Shooting locks you to normal run speed rather than sprinting one, and speed in aiming is same as speed while crouching, so more walking than running at this point. Either one makes a noticeable difference when trying to counter the drain from his 2 and 4.

The drain does seem to get slightly slower when Redline's counter gets closer to 100%, but the effect is pretty minor and only at all noticeable when you're about to lose all drain due to getting to 100% anyway. Not really much of a consolation.

 

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5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:
 

The animation cancels and possibilities for connecting it with other maneuvers are all the more reason for it to use an input method that is more readily available than an ability button that is out of the way and can't be used in conjunction with other mobility inputs comfortably. 

I suppose i'd need to see your proposal in action.  As in theory I could agree.  But i'm much better at understanding things visually.

5 minutes ago, vFlitz said:
 

The battery gain from movement is actually based on horizontal speed. Easy to see as when you bullet jump straight up you get nothing, while jumping forward will fill the meter. Shooting locks you to normal run speed rather than sprinting one, and speed in aiming is same as speed while crouching, so more walking than running at this point. Either one makes a noticeable difference when trying to counter the drain from his 2 and 4.

The drain does seem to get slightly slower when Redline's counter gets closer to 100%, but the effect is pretty minor and only at all noticeable when you're about to lose all drain due to getting to 100% anyway. Not really much of a consolation.

 

 

True enough on the horizontal speed thing.  I do think though that the ability to be considered sprinting when doing these actions is an effect that should extend to vertical movement as well as things like hipfiring and meleeing to more smooth out that counteracting/battery building you get from moving but to make it more cohesive with combat rather than just aim gliding a lot.  From watching it seems like the drain being slower is more prevalent when you have higher battery and % in redline when in conjunction with high duration.  And imo it looks to be rather significant from me watching Gauss being used to solo profit taker.

Was important to note for me because it kind of makes things click for me in terms of his kit.

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