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Brucely

Gauss is fun, but needs more function. (The speed = power wishlist)

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(I guess Gauss discussion is spilling out of the pinned post now, so here goes).

Last night, I was playing Gauss on infested survival arbitration on infested ship tileset. As I zipped in and out of mobs to flank and pick off drones, or made mad dashes to life support towers and used the 3 to CC before hitting the tower, Gauss's fun factor finally clicked for me. Still, it all felt kinda basic still, like I could have been playing any other average frame that lacks self-synergy, team utility and interactiveness, but faster.

On the other hand, frames like Wisp, Harrow, Nezha, Volt, all those frames have some aspect of what Gauss does, but they each do something that sets them apart from the other, while also being highly scalable, interactive and also having some use for the team. I think we all want Gauss to be more like that. Here are some ideas I have on achieving that.

--

Passive: I have two ideas for this. First, Gauss moves faster while aiming and shooting to encourage a high-mobility gameplay. Second idea, modding for sprint speed also feeds into modding for power strength. I think it's a cool way to further enforce that for Gauss, speed = power, and it would make him more scalable.

--

Mach Rush: So, so fun. I have mostly QoL tweaks for this ability, but some additional interactions would be cool

-Quality of Life

  1. Make it castable while strafing sideways and backwards as well. Ideally, you can be aiming and strafing sideways or backwards and immediately zip either of those ways to reposition quickly and get back into aiming.
  2. Casting 3 or 4 should interrupt Mach Rush instantly, just to make the kit as a whole more snappy and responsive. Often times I want to mach rush right into the middle of a mob to cast 3 and then zip out, but it's hardly smooth when first I have to cancel Mach Rush, and then cast the 3.
  3. Finally, I think Mach Rush should have a "hard stop", where turning off Mach Rush by stopping movement completely should cast a 180 degree stagger in front of wherever Gauss stops. So, sorta like him crashing into a wall with MR, but less effective, but still giving you some CC and that feeling of being super fast, then stopping, and the air behind you catches up in a big gust that puts everyone on a back foot.

-Interactions: Impacting enemies with Mach Rush should add battery charge, which would help with Redline's charge issues and also give Mach Rush more utility. Also, Mach Rushing out of a Thermal Sunder bubble should add a sort of elemental proc aura to Mach Rush, lasting as long as that bubble's duration. So, like how Kinetic Plating adds slash procs, but instead it's heat, cold or blast procs. Adding that interaction between the two abilities is a part of making the frame more interactive.

--

Kinetic Plating: It's mostly fine, as far as passive damage reduction abilities go. Maybe it's energy generation is insignificant? I dunno, I often forget that it's duration has run out. Maybe it's a little too inferior to things like Warding Halo, Iron Skin Desolate Hands, I could go on, but the point is all those abilities aren't restricted to certain damage types. Yes, KP can give 100% reduction and that's balanced out by only applying to physical, heat and cold, but it's too much of a cliff in effectiveness when it comes to other elemental damages. Instead of zero damage reduction when it comes to other elements, there should be something like 60% reduction at max battery and additional battery drain for each hit taken. Redline could boost that reduction perhaps.

--

Thermal Sunder: Probably the best designed ability in his kit, when it comes to fun and function. The only important QoL thing I already mentioned in the Mach Rush section, having it interrupt Mach Rush. Also, the interaction with Mach Rush that I'll mention again: Mach Rushing out of a Thermal Sunder bubble should add a sort of elemental proc aura to Mach Rush, lasting as long as that bubble's duration. It would be nice if the cold sunder granted some extra battery charge for every enemy caught in it. Also, Thermal Sunder could be given some team utility by adding heat, cold, or blast damage to all teammate attacks done inside of the bubble. Mach Rush could also do bonus damage to targets that are frozen or on fire.

--

Redline: Looks and feels cool, but as far as ultimates go, it doesn't feel very ultimate. It needs another buff to make it stand out. It could be another way for Gauss to have some team utility. There could be more fireworks when you hit 100%.

-Buffs: The way Redline buffs abilities is a nice side dish, but the main course is the attack speed, fire rate, and reload speed buffs. They're great and all, but there are other warframe abilities that do the same thing with better duration, plus major team utility, and they're not even ults. Harrow's Penance heals insanely, duration scales super well without serious duration modding, it interacts well with his 1. Wisp's Haste Mote is for the whole team, and it lasts forever. Here are some buff ideas that could make Redline stand out more as an ult.

  1. Ammo Injection: You don't have to reload at all and charge weapons just skip their charge completely. Through Waframe Space MagicTM Gauss just feeds ammo into his guns automatically and you can just fire, fire, fire away.
  2. Other stat buffs: Boost damage, status chance, crit chance/damage, multishot, punch through (only if innate or modded for), projectile speed. Take your pick, mix and match. I'm particular to status, multishot, punch through and projectile speed buffs.
  3. SFX buff: layer on another sound effect to all attacks performed while redline, just to make it feel more special.

-100% Fireworks: I think we need additional sensory feedback and maybe bonuses for when we hit 100% battery. Right now, when you hit 100% battery in Redline, the first thing that comes to my mind is a whew, don't need to worry about that battery drain anymore. I think the feeling should be more like #*!% yes, I hit 100%. Why not give us some additional audio and visual feedback, like having more a big blast proc Thermal Sunder trigger automatically with a special animation and even more energy FX firing out of the mesh spots that Redline opens up. Maybe even reward us with even more buffs to speed, duration, power strength, whatever to really hit that awwww yeah 100% baby! spot.

-Team Utility: Drafting, or slipstreaming. It's when race car A gets into the air pocket behind race car B, so car A can accelerate with less air resistance. Now, it would be hard for teammates to run behind Gauss in order to share some of his buffs. Why not have Gauss grant teammate Redline buffs by Mach Rushing past/through them while in Redline. This should also grant extra battery gain to encourage going out of your way to help the team.

--

TL;DR Gauss is fun, but his design lacks a level of interactivity and synergy that makes Warframe not only fun but also good to use beyond being really really fast for fun. I have a bunch of ideas to change that, but I also have a lurking suspicion that Gauss will get much needed tweaks in the form of augment mods.

Edited by Brucely
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I dont think theres a single idea I dislike here. The whole “sprint speed also levels strength” idea really sounded good to me because Ive been wanting his MR to deal damage to enemies you hit outright (and not just wall splatting near) and have this damage scale by speed

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Thanks. Mach Rush dealing damage to enemies it hits directly would be nice. I would still want the wall splatter though, and for a bit extra it'd be cool if the wall splatter did additional damage, or even created a small explosion effect. But also I don't see it necessarily as a damage-dealing ability first and foremost.

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Very much love everything about this, and I feel this would help him out a lottttt.

The main thing for me is I think Redline here is a bit TO overbearing, just do to the fact your throwing just EVERything onto it. I say if it is to boost any more stats, it would be punchthrough, projectile speed (if it doesn't do that already, thought for sure it did but could be wrong), and mayyyybe crit damage. But I feel the focus for him is to be a bit more utility, so having it straight up buff damage seems like overstating a ability (especially sense it scales of of duration!)

Id say make the infinite ammo be once you hit redline, call it like, ammo overdrive or something and just be hes overclocked to the max and just reloads in the blink of an eye (sense it already buffs reload speed), making even more of a 'F@% YEAH' moment on hitting redline as your gun shoots at maximum fire, plows through enemies at high speeds of almost hit scan level and you can just hold down the trigger like the best drive by frame this side of the galaxy. 

But I think that's all it really needs. Though making it deal more damage would be thematic for making a bullet shoot faster, I feel that would just make him beyond op thanks to him already making low fire rate guns shoot like gattling guns. But that's just me.

Other than that, Love the rest as stated, running through the sunders to gain elemental damage seems like just something that should be there already to make them feel better over all, and having sprint speed scale into strength would just help him out a heck of a lot in term of his damage numbers. Hitting enemies with Mach rush to gain battery is just another thing that really should already be there, right now there's no reason to ever long dash as it is actually a determent to your battery levels if you have any of the constant drains active. This would fix that, allowing you to plow through enemies in a long dash to get more of that sweet sweet meter. 

Having the little full stop explosion is a cool thought to, maybe have it only happen after dashing a certain distance, but then still reward players for not HAVing to bash there heads into every single wall as much as possible and let them still get that feeling of 'foooosh' upon stopping. 

(as for him Mach rushing through people to give the buff though? I think that's a bit much, maybe give a lower 'base value' version or something. He seems like a frame that is built to speed past his teammates, a true 'sonic' that sits there tapping his foot at the extraction point while the rest are trying to desperately catch up to him. Though I feel a bit more team synergy would be nice I don't know if its warranted on him, if anything  maybe let him project Kinetic fields around allies and call it a day. Was thinking maybe also leaving behind 'wind tunnels' in longer distance dashes, allowing others to sprint through them for a sprint speed boost like the Titania bullet jump area. But that's another thing entirely, but still something to think about. My main worry is giving a fully stacked Chroma a whisp and Redline buff with infinite ammo...what even is a high enough level for an enemy to pose a threat with that...*shudders*)

But Besides the above and the slight over stat on redline I fully approve of everything here, and I hope someone reads and takes notice of this 👍

Edited by WellIHopeThisOneWorks

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On 2019-09-10 at 7:23 AM, Brucely said:

Passive: I have two ideas for this. First, Gauss moves faster while aiming and shooting to encourage a high-mobility gameplay. Second idea, modding for sprint speed also feeds into modding for power strength. I think it's a cool way to further enforce that for Gauss, speed = power, and it would make him more scalable.

I agree, his passive is really really mediocre

I don't understand how could DE think about a lackluster passive like this and leave it be 

What would you do with shields anyway?

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Also brucely(nice name btw) please post these feedback about gauss to the gauss feedback section

The more visible our opinions are to the devs, the better 

 

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28 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Also brucely(nice name btw) please post these feedback about gauss to the gauss feedback section

The more visible our opinions are to the devs, the better 

 

This, deserves as much exposure as possible 

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Hmm, yep, I can get behind this. What else I'd like to see is removing the duration on KP and leaving it as a toggle(initial energy cost and then only battery drain).

Edited by TheRealShade

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I think personally a damage multiplier (or supplementary stat buff, crit etc.) on his battery would be great and further scales of redline

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On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

 

--

Passive: I have two ideas for this. First, Gauss moves faster while aiming and shooting to encourage a high-mobility gameplay. Second idea, modding for sprint speed also feeds into modding for power strength. I think it's a cool way to further enforce that for Gauss, speed = power, and it would make him more scalable.

--

His current passive is fine.  As adaptation and his energy conversion both work off his shields.  I could see buffing up his passive from 80% to 100% when at max redline to further this.  But I don't think it needs to be a fundemental change.  Plus Gauss already moves faster than any other frame base sprint speed wise.  And slapping sprint speed related mods furthers this while making his mach rush faster.  I get the intent here but I don't think it needs to happen.  Especially when his mobility in tileset missions is already almost borderline excessive.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

Mach Rush: So, so fun. I have mostly QoL tweaks for this ability, but some additional interactions would be cool

-Quality of Life

  1. Make it castable while strafing sideways and backwards as well. Ideally, you can be aiming and strafing sideways or backwards and immediately zip either of those ways to reposition quickly and get back into aiming.
  2. Casting 3 or 4 should interrupt Mach Rush instantly, just to make the kit as a whole more snappy and responsive. Often times I want to mach rush right into the middle of a mob to cast 3 and then zip out, but it's hardly smooth when first I have to cancel Mach Rush, and then cast the 3.
  3. Finally, I think Mach Rush should have a "hard stop", where turning off Mach Rush by stopping movement completely should cast a 180 degree stagger in front of wherever Gauss stops. So, sorta like him crashing into a wall with MR, but less effective, but still giving you some CC and that feeling of being super fast, then stopping, and the air behind you catches up in a big gust that puts everyone on a back foot.

-Interactions: Impacting enemies with Mach Rush should add battery charge, which would help with Redline's charge issues and also give Mach Rush more utility. Also, Mach Rushing out of a Thermal Sunder bubble should add a sort of elemental proc aura to Mach Rush, lasting as long as that bubble's duration. So, like how Kinetic Plating adds slash procs, but instead it's heat, cold or blast procs. Adding that interaction between the two abilities is a part of making the frame more interactive.

--

Number 2 is a nice QoL thing but I don't like the idea of number 1.  It turns the ability from a forward movement ability into a defacto dodge ability.  Which is cool and all but I think that's more suited for a frame like Zephyr than Gauss.  Number 3 sounds like a nice augment though.  As for the interaction portion I think the former half fits as a nice qol thing but the latter with sunder is again more of an augment idea.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

Kinetic Plating: It's mostly fine, as far as passive damage reduction abilities go. Maybe it's energy generation is insignificant? I dunno, I often forget that it's duration has run out. Maybe it's a little too inferior to things like Warding Halo, Iron Skin Desolate Hands, I could go on, but the point is all those abilities aren't restricted to certain damage types. Yes, KP can give 100% reduction and that's balanced out by only applying to physical, heat and cold, but it's too much of a cliff in effectiveness when it comes to other elemental damages. Instead of zero damage reduction when it comes to other elements, there should be something like 60% reduction at max battery and additional battery drain for each hit taken. Redline could boost that reduction perhaps.

--

I could only get behind reducing his potential tank ability on the % if his DR applied to all types of damage.  But since it doesn't apply to things like toxin it gives him a strong survival potential but with a clear weakness.  The fact that it gives you energy based on damage shot at you rather than damage you actually take and it removes cc effects used against you gives it all the utility it needs.  As both indirectly help his survival as a movement frame that lives from moving and ccing enemies.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

Thermal Sunder: Probably the best designed ability in his kit, when it comes to fun and function. The only important QoL thing I already mentioned in the Mach Rush section, having it interrupt Mach Rush. Also, the interaction with Mach Rush that I'll mention again: Mach Rushing out of a Thermal Sunder bubble should add a sort of elemental proc aura to Mach Rush, lasting as long as that bubble's duration. It would be nice if the cold sunder granted some extra battery charge for every enemy caught in it. Also, Thermal Sunder could be given some team utility by adding heat, cold, or blast damage to all teammate attacks done inside of the bubble.

--

Personally I disagree.  The shrinking range makes no sense when you can't proc the hard cc effects without redline/double cast.  Cold merely slightly slows and heat does little damage.  Having to double cast also means much higher cost for these effects.  And the armor strip isn't a fixed % and caps at 50% which you need 100% battery for.  I'm down with letting sunder stop your mach rush sprint for sure.  But his 3 needs some serious QoL overhaul.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

Redline: Looks and feels cool, but as far as ultimates go, it doesn't feel very ultimate. It needs another buff to make it stand out. It could be another way for Gauss to have some team utility. There could be more fireworks when you hit 100%.

I'd say zero battery cost and 100% DR against most types of damage is enough of a fireworks effect.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

-Buffs: The way Redline buffs abilities is a nice side dish, but the main course is the attack speed, fire rate, and reload speed buffs. They're great and all, but there are other warframe abilities that do the same thing with better duration, plus major team utility, and they're not even ults. Harrow's Penance heals insanely, duration scales super well without serious duration modding, it interacts well with his 1. Wisp's Haste Mote is for the whole team, and it lasts forever. Here are some buff ideas that could make Redline stand out more as an ult.

-sigh-  No frame is on his level as far as dpsing goes.  wisps buffs are over sold.  She's not a meta pick because her buffs are not amazing.  Harrow's entire useability is dependent on team comp.  Sure, he could spam his 4 for a crit boost and temp invincibility for his team.  But that's costly and honestly not as good as being a team buffer goes.  Harrow ultimately needs trash to be effective and that's not a common thing for most end game comps/activities.  Both frames have more direct team utility than Gauss does.  Ultimately I don't think that states Gauss needs changes or that other frames are better than him.  As he currently out dps's damage buffer frames for world bosses.  So he already has a role in an end game comp.  Where as neither Harrow nor wisp have.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

-100% Fireworks: I think we need additional sensory feedback and maybe bonuses for when we hit 100% battery. Right now, when you hit 100% battery in Redline, the first thing that comes to my mind is a whew, don't need to worry about that battery drain anymore. I think the feeling should be more like #*!% yes, I hit 100%. Why not give us some additional audio and visual feedback, like having more a big blast proc Thermal Sunder trigger automatically with a special animation and even more energy FX firing out of the mesh spots that Redline opens up. Maybe even reward us with even more buffs to speed, duration, power strength, whatever to really hit that awwww yeah 100% baby! spot.

I mean sure, having a better UI for Gauss is only beneficial anyway.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

-Team Utility: Drafting, or slipstreaming. It's when race car A gets into the air pocket behind race car B, so car A can accelerate with less air resistance. Now, it would be hard for teammates to run behind Gauss in order to share some of his buffs. Why not have Gauss grant teammate Redline buffs by Mach Rushing past/through them while in Redline. This should also grant extra battery gain to encourage going out of your way to help the team.

--

No.  Gauss does not need to give his effects to his team.  Further more you're forcing Gauss to have to build then as a team buffer so he doesn't have to hug his allies to give him the buffs.  Just look at Chroma and see how trying to force a team synergy out of a kit doesn't work well for optimized comp setups.  If Gauss already had some design direction as a team friendly frame then maybe.  But he's clearly not.  At best I could maybe get behind a well designed augment to fulfill people's desires to make him a team friendly frame.  But not shoving it in his kit.

On 2019-09-10 at 12:23 AM, Brucely said:

TL;DR Gauss is fun, but his design lacks a level of interactivity and synergy that makes Warframe not only fun but also good to use beyond being really really fast for fun. I have a bunch of ideas to change that, but I also have a lurking suspicion that Gauss will get much needed tweaks in the form of augment mods.

I'll just copy/paste my suggestions here for the sake of discussion:

That being said I do think he could see some improvements.  And this is just me spitballing as I don't have access to him yet:

-Mach rush refunds energy/battery or a bit of both when he directly hits enemies.

-Thermal sunder's armor strip capability is turned into a flat value instead of one that scales off of battery level.  Potentially boost the strip from 50%

-Remove the shrinking circle effect on thermal sunder.

-double casting the same effect on sunder reduces the energy cost of the second cast.

-double casting fire reduces the battery cost.

-thermal sunder has a flat % chance to proc it's cc effect (freeze/panic) when enemies enter the radius.

-Extend the "sprint effect" to vertical movement and meleeing.  (currently jumping/aim gliding and bullet jumping all count as sprinting if you hold the key down.  By adding this to vertical movement as well as meleeing you basically continue his theme of being mobile to build battery and his combat smooths out a bit more.)

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On 2019-09-10 at 1:23 AM, Brucely said:

Impacting enemies with Mach Rush should add battery charge

Sure, but what if impacting enemies with mach rush also damaged them, you are hitting them at high speeds after all.

 

On 2019-09-10 at 1:23 AM, Brucely said:

Thermal Sunder

The damage lowers as the area shrinks so that could be not a feature at all, it's a pretty small, energy consuming ability at base already.

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Appreciate your detailed reply. Before I get into it, I just want to say that a lot of my thoughts are based on how I enjoy playing Warframe, which I fully realize is not how everyone plays Warframe. But I share my opinions anyways, cause why not and maybe someone else will relate. So, how I enjoy playing Warframe is by moving as much as possible, with less focus on face-tanking damage, being tanky in general, and nuking rooms. I prefer frames that can provide some kind of team utility, but I generally don't look to set up specific team compositions with other people. I don't like finding places to camp and just sitting still for 40 minutes, even if doing so makes things more efficient or whatever. Also, bandaid augments that feel like they should just be a natural part of an ability frustrate me so much. Keep that in mind as I respond.

--

12 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

His current passive is fine.  As adaptation and his energy conversion both work off his shields.  I could see buffing up his passive from 80% to 100% when at max redline to further this.  But I don't think it needs to be a fundamental change.  Plus Gauss already moves faster than any other frame base sprint speed wise.  And slapping sprint speed related mods furthers this while making his mach rush faster.  I get the intent here but I don't think it needs to happen.  Especially when his mobility in tileset missions is already almost borderline excessive.

I don't have a huge problem with his current passive, and I don't really see the problem with adding one or two more passive effects. Sure, it doesn't need to change, but I would think it could be more fun with some changes. And sure, his extreme mobility in those narrow corridors is hardly elegant, but man is it fun and actually useful if you just commit to it. I've used a lot of Gauss with and without Rush, and I think he plays much better with Rush.

--

12 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Number 2 is a nice QoL thing but I don't like the idea of number 1.  It turns the ability from a forward movement ability into a defacto dodge ability.  Which is cool and all but I think that's more suited for a frame like Zephyr than Gauss.  Number 3 sounds like a nice augment though.  As for the interaction portion I think the former half fits as a nice qol thing but the latter with sunder is again more of an augment idea.

Sure, "hard stop" is probably a small neat idea that would be more fitting to an augment. But then also maybe it's too small of an addition to really be a worthwhile augment? Also, I think it would be a lot of fun to have at least some kind of innate synergy/combo between Thermal Sunder and Mach Rush. Another idea I've had is having an interaction when you Mach Rush into someone under the effects of Thermal Sunder. Frozen enemies shatter if not get dealt massive damage, while burning enemies get ragdolled away, spreading the fire proc in a small aoe wherever they land. As for giving Mach Rush backwards and sideways mobility, I don't really get your point as to why not. Can you elaborate?

--

12 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I could only get behind reducing his potential tank ability on the % if his DR applied to all types of damage.  But since it doesn't apply to things like toxin it gives him a strong survival potential but with a clear weakness.  The fact that it gives you energy based on damage shot at you rather than damage you actually take and it removes cc effects used against you gives it all the utility it needs.  As both indirectly help his survival as a movement frame that lives from moving and ccing enemies.

What do you mean "damage shot at you rather than damage you actually take"? Like, you don't need to actually take damage to health or shields in order to get energy? Rather, enemies just need to shoot into an invisible area around you? If that's what you mean, where did you get that info? I'm just curious, because again I have no strong feelings about Kinetic Plating. I mean, having to take hits to get its energy conversion while I'm using the frame's speed as much as possible to not get hit feels counterproductive. But yes, it does provide an extra bit of survival.

--

12 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Personally I disagree.  The shrinking range makes no sense when you can't proc the hard cc effects without redline/double cast.  Cold merely slightly slows and heat does little damage.  Having to double cast also means much higher cost for these effects.  And the armor strip isn't a fixed % and caps at 50% which you need 100% battery for.  I'm down with letting sunder stop your mach rush sprint for sure.  But his 3 needs some serious QoL overhaul.

Sounds to me like you really just want a straight buff to the ability, which I get. I mean, why not, right? My guess is DE made the ability the way it is for the sake of balance, and not stepping on the toes of other frames too much. The way I see it, Thermal Sunder is more a CC ability than a damage dealing one. In fact I'd say its damage and armor stripping is kinda irrelevant at most levels of play, including arbitrations. I think the most balanced buffs that could be applied to Thermal Sunder are to the armor stripping, and maybe making successive castings of the same damage type have decreased energy cost.

--

12 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'd say zero battery cost and 100% DR against most types of damage is enough of a fireworks effect.

Couple of problems with this. One that I didn't address which is the duration issues and how long it takes to reach 100%, which I think is fair to say that it's currently too long. I don't think it's really fun to have to build for insane duration, spend 20-30 seconds getting the battery to 100%, and then only get 20-30 seconds to actually enjoy its benefits, including the zero battery cost. Like I said, I feel more relief than excitement (fireworks) about that... and then the ability's over. When things get crazy, 20-30 seconds of 100% redline feels like nothing.

 

12 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

-sigh-  No frame is on his level as far as dpsing goes.  wisps buffs are over sold.  She's not a meta pick because her buffs are not amazing.  Harrow's entire useability is dependent on team comp.  Sure, he could spam his 4 for a crit boost and temp invincibility for his team.  But that's costly and honestly not as good as being a team buffer goes.  Harrow ultimately needs trash to be effective and that's not a common thing for most end game comps/activities.  Both frames have more direct team utility than Gauss does.  Ultimately I don't think that states Gauss needs changes or that other frames are better than him.  As he currently out dps's damage buffer frames for world bosses.  So he already has a role in an end game comp.  Where as neither Harrow nor wisp have.

I'm not approaching Gauss in terms of how he fits into the meta, or how he can fit into end game comps. I'm looking at how he can be more fun, functional, rewarding to play. I haven't played Wisp, but I have really enjoyed getting her Haste Mote, especially as Harrow, who I have played a lot of and have almost never had a problem finding trash to kill. Sure, it's a bit harder to use Penance during an Eidolon fight since there's no trash, but that's just one context in a game with many ways to play.

 

12 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

No.  Gauss does not need to give his effects to his team.  Further more you're forcing Gauss to have to build then as a team buffer so he doesn't have to hug his allies to give him the buffs.  Just look at Chroma and see how trying to force a team synergy out of a kit doesn't work well for optimized comp setups.  If Gauss already had some design direction as a team friendly frame then maybe.  But he's clearly not.  At best I could maybe get behind a well designed augment to fulfill people's desires to make him a team friendly frame.  But not shoving it in his kit.

Sure, he doesn't need to. But, at the moment, Gauss feels like a bit much of a selfish frame, and I think it would be nice to make that slightly less so. Again, my preference is frames that have some kind of team utility, so that's coloring my opinions here. Warframes like Nezha, Rhino, Nidus, Garuda, you would be wrong to consider them support frames, and yet they each have a decent smidge of team utility beyond CC or just killing everything. I think Gauss can be the same way.

--

21 minutes ago, -Bv-Concarne said:

Sure, but what if impacting enemies with mach rush also damaged them, you are hitting them at high speeds after all.

I've seen that a lot of people want it to have stacking additive collision damage or something, and I understand why. I would be fine with it either way. To me, it is mainly a mobility ability, so I'm having fun whether it does damage or not.

Edited by Brucely

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14 hours ago, Brucely said:

Appreciate your detailed reply. Before I get into it, I just want to say that a lot of my thoughts are based on how I enjoy playing Warframe, which I fully realize is not how everyone plays Warframe. But I share my opinions anyways, cause why not and maybe someone else will relate. So, how I enjoy playing Warframe is by moving as much as possible, with less focus on face-tanking damage, being tanky in general, and nuking rooms. I prefer frames that can provide some kind of team utility, but I generally don't look to set up specific team compositions with other people. I don't like finding places to camp and just sitting still for 40 minutes, even if doing so makes things more efficient or whatever. Also, bandaid augments that feel like they should just be a natural part of an ability frustrate me so much. Keep that in mind as I respond.

--

I too enjoy mobility and utility over most other ways of playing games.  So at least we have that as a common ground.

14 hours ago, Brucely said:

I don't have a huge problem with his current passive, and I don't really see the problem with adding one or two more passive effects. Sure, it doesn't need to change, but I would think it could be more fun with some changes. And sure, his extreme mobility in those narrow corridors is hardly elegant, but man is it fun and actually useful if you just commit to it. I've used a lot of Gauss with and without Rush, and I think he plays much better with Rush.

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The issue here is convincing DE and not me.  I can't give you a well thought out argument against your proposed changes being tacked onto his current passive from the perspective on what that might do to make DE not be for it.  The best I can really say is "just because you can doesn't mean you should."  As for the part about sprint speed I really can't say which I prefer with and without as I don't have access to him yet.

14 hours ago, Brucely said:

Sure, "hard stop" is probably a small neat idea that would be more fitting to an augment. But then also maybe it's too small of an addition to really be a worthwhile augment? Also, I think it would be a lot of fun to have at least some kind of innate synergy/combo between Thermal Sunder and Mach Rush. Another idea I've had is having an interaction when you Mach Rush into someone under the effects of Thermal Sunder. Frozen enemies shatter if not get dealt massive damage, while burning enemies get ragdolled away, spreading the fire proc in a small aoe wherever they land. As for giving Mach Rush backwards and sideways mobility, I don't really get your point as to why not. Can you elaborate?

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Depends.  Mesa's Waltz is a relatively minor effect in her kit but it has a massive impact (for me anyway) on how she feels and plays.  Same might be said of your hard stop mini cc effect.  And you kind of are selling your own suggestion short if you don't think it would be enough to fit as an augment.  imo anyway.  Those additions sound like fun extra things to do which imo is what augments are for.  There are a lot of augments that currently exist that you could make an argument for on baking into the base kit.  At the same time augments are meant to be either nice qol things or minor changes to gameplay to sort of tease out another style of play.  Which is why DE has yet to bake in any augments.

As far as the Mach rush suggestion i'm unsure how to elaborate on it further.  the design of the ability seems to be going all out with less control.  The whole fantasy of it seems like sacrificing pretty much everything just to be fast.  By giving him the ability to dash omni-directionally I feel it moves away from the fantasy of moving fast and starts moving towards the fantasy of being nimble/agile.  I can see how the shorter bursts of speed can start to bridge the gap in that direction.  But ultimately I don't think it fits his fantasy as far as kit design goes.  Which is why I can't get behind it. 

14 hours ago, Brucely said:

What do you mean "damage shot at you rather than damage you actually take"? Like, you don't need to actually take damage to health or shields in order to get energy? Rather, enemies just need to shoot into an invisible area around you? If that's what you mean, where did you get that info? I'm just curious, because again I have no strong feelings about Kinetic Plating. I mean, having to take hits to get its energy conversion while I'm using the frame's speed as much as possible to not get hit feels counterproductive. But yes, it does provide an extra bit of survival.

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So hunter adrenaline/rage both require you to lose health in order for you to gain energy.  Gauss's energy conversion mechanic does not.  I believe this is intentionally done because at max redline and battery you become immune to some damage types meaning you wouldn't be able to take advantage of that part of the ability even though you're playing the kit to it's peak.  The idea with Kinetic plating imo is using it's DR along with adaptation to build up some tankiness while you're gaining energy.  And then once you have enough energy you turn kinetic plating off to avoid extra battery drain.

14 hours ago, Brucely said:

Sounds to me like you really just want a straight buff to the ability, which I get. I mean, why not, right? My guess is DE made the ability the way it is for the sake of balance, and not stepping on the toes of other frames too much. The way I see it, Thermal Sunder is more a CC ability than a damage dealing one. In fact I'd say its damage and armor stripping is kinda irrelevant at most levels of play, including arbitrations. I think the most balanced buffs that could be applied to Thermal Sunder are to the armor stripping, and maybe making successive castings of the same damage type have decreased energy cost.

--

I'm fine with it being a cc/utility tool over a straight damage like ability.  I just think it's capabilities are a bit hindered atm with how it currently functions and having to double cast in most situations.

14 hours ago, Brucely said:

Couple of problems with this. One that I didn't address which is the duration issues and how long it takes to reach 100%, which I think is fair to say that it's currently too long. I don't think it's really fun to have to build for insane duration, spend 20-30 seconds getting the battery to 100%, and then only get 20-30 seconds to actually enjoy its benefits, including the zero battery cost. Like I said, I feel more relief than excitement (fireworks) about that... and then the ability's over. When things get crazy, 20-30 seconds of 100% redline feels like nothing.

I feel like 20-30 seconds of those effects is plenty of time.  I really wouldn't want him to be another insane buffer like frame that can hold his buffs for a near minute or longer whilst being insanely powerful.  I'd be fine with DE some how finding a way to make reaching max easier to do.  But I think the max amount of possible time someone should get with whatever effects are given at 100% shouldn't exceed 30 seconds.  I understand the relief feeling you're mentioning.  At the same time if battery/redline upkeep was insanely easy it devalues the whole battery mechanic to begin with.  Part of which is learning how to build your battery and keep it up so it feels like you're making yourself better and better.

The only 2 areas I can really see that needs improvement with redline is the bolts of damage that come off of him.  they don't do anything besides damage and even at 100% they don't do good damage.  Something should be done about that.  The second thing involves manual deactivation.  It doesn't really serve a purpose and seemingly only penalizes you.  If they could do something about that i'd probably be down for it.  The whole idea about redline is removing your limiters and pushing your kit to it's limits.  Perhaps if there were more than one level of overdrive it might fulfill that fantasy better whilst allowing different levels of buffs so players feel like the time being invested is worth it.

14 hours ago, Brucely said:

 

I'm not approaching Gauss in terms of how he fits into the meta, or how he can fit into end game comps. I'm looking at how he can be more fun, functional, rewarding to play. I haven't played Wisp, but I have really enjoyed getting her Haste Mote, especially as Harrow, who I have played a lot of and have almost never had a problem finding trash to kill. Sure, it's a bit harder to use Penance during an Eidolon fight since there's no trash, but that's just one context in a game with many ways to play.

I will apologize for this section as it is something i've been continually discussing with others and I for lack of a better word got triggered.  My point was that while some frames are comparable to Gauss in terms of speed+ buffs Gauss is still the best in this regard because he technically has a place in end game setups (world boss hunting) where as Harrow and wisp do not.  We can just move along from this section as it's mainly on me.

14 hours ago, Brucely said:

 

Sure, he doesn't need to. But, at the moment, Gauss feels like a bit much of a selfish frame, and I think it would be nice to make that slightly less so. Again, my preference is frames that have some kind of team utility, so that's coloring my opinions here. Warframes like Nezha, Rhino, Nidus, Garuda, you would be wrong to consider them support frames, and yet they each have a decent smidge of team utility beyond CC or just killing everything. I think Gauss can be the same way.

--

 

We will just have to agree to disagree here.  As even though I can understand where you are coming from I personally cannot keep myself objective with this topic.  I have a pretty firm stance on the whole topic about "team frames."  If I were forced to pick some sort of team utility for Gauss i'd rather they work on his 3 to make it more applicable/desireable for teams than make Gauss yet another generic team buffing frame.  We already have so many of those.

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17 hours ago, Brucely said:

I've seen that a lot of people want it to have stacking additive collision damage or something, and I understand why. I would be fine with it either way. To me, it is mainly a mobility ability, so I'm having fun whether it does damage or not.

If anything it needs to damage enemies on direct impact, in whatever way. Considering that redline forces you to spam mach dash instead of rush, And trying to line up enemies near walls is not always an option.

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The problem with Gauss' passive is the same as that of Chroma's. It's not really an extra bonus, it's just integral to make the frame work. Gauss gains battery, Chroma changes element based on energy color. That's just the frames having different base mechanics. I mean, Nidus' passive is "Expends stacks to avoid death", not "can gain mutation stacks". Hildryn's is shield gating, not "uses shields as energy". The closest thing to Gauss having an actual passive is the boost to shield recharge based on battery, which is..... well, not quite Mag's "vacuum on bullet jump" but it's close.

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On 2019-09-13 at 3:58 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

As far as the Mach rush suggestion i'm unsure how to elaborate on it further.  the design of the ability seems to be going all out with less control.  The whole fantasy of it seems like sacrificing pretty much everything just to be fast.  By giving him the ability to dash omni-directionally I feel it moves away from the fantasy of moving fast and starts moving towards the fantasy of being nimble/agile.  I can see how the shorter bursts of speed can start to bridge the gap in that direction.  But ultimately I don't think it fits his fantasy as far as kit design goes.  Which is why I can't get behind it. 

I see where you are coming from, like comparing Gauss to a drag racer, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Gauss is very nimble and agile. Sure, Mach Rush doesn't turn on a dime, but you can stop on a dime, whether by just ending the cast, jumping, aiming or hitting a wall, and then you can quickly redirect and recast.

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On 2019-09-13 at 3:58 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

At the same time if battery/redline upkeep was insanely easy it devalues the whole battery mechanic to begin with.  Part of which is learning how to build your battery and keep it up so it feels like you're making yourself better and better.

No, it shouldn't be insanely easy, but also it shouldn't be boring. The battery build mechanic for Redline is too passive, not rewarding enough. You reach it by being as mobile as possible, and using the abilities as much as possible. That's it. No active link to using your abilities and mobility against enemies. This results in players just looking for long hallways to run down, or jumping around in circles like maniacs. Instead, they should be encouraged and rewarded with extra charge for running through mobs, catching many enemies in thermal sunder, and getting kills at high speed and in parkour.

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On 2019-09-13 at 3:58 PM, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I have a pretty firm stance on the whole topic about "team frames."  If I were forced to pick some sort of team utility for Gauss i'd rather they work on his 3 to make it more applicable/desireable for teams than make Gauss yet another generic team buffing frame.  We already have so many of those.

Fair, agree to disagree and all that, but I'm curious how you define a 'generic team buffing frame'? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Trinity is an example of this for you. Trinity: best healer, energy generator, but generally boring to play for many people. It's kinda like playing medic in Team Fortress 2, where your main job is to stay alive and give heals, rather than blow S#&$ up. Gauss, in his current state, is hardly like that, and will never be like that because he and Trinity are thematically very different. Gauss is speed, while Trinity is healing.

That's not say sticking to those themes needs to be strictly selfish and one-dimensional. Have you played Nezha? Primarily a speedy CC tank who can nuke rooms by comboing Divine Spears and Blazing Chakram, but then also steps into team utility by buffing damage to enemies AND health and energy pickups with Chakram. Why can't Gauss also have a bit of team utility like that? DE could make Gauss's Redline buffs sharable like I described, and he would be far from a 'generic team buffing frame', don't you think?

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On 2019-09-16 at 11:06 AM, Brucely said:

I see where you are coming from, like comparing Gauss to a drag racer, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree. Gauss is very nimble and agile. Sure, Mach Rush doesn't turn on a dime, but you can stop on a dime, whether by just ending the cast, jumping, aiming or hitting a wall, and then you can quickly redirect and recast.

--

True.  But I think figuring out how to use hard stops and quick flicks of your aim to manipulate the pretty inflexible movement of what defines Mach rush is sort of the "skill gap" of the move making it more interesting to toy with than simply baking said things into the kit.  But this is merely a preference thing.  i've started playing with him today and I will say that Mach rush's hold to cast could be a bit more intuitive than it currently is.

On 2019-09-16 at 11:06 AM, Brucely said:

No, it shouldn't be insanely easy, but also it shouldn't be boring. The battery build mechanic for Redline is too passive, not rewarding enough. You reach it by being as mobile as possible, and using the abilities as much as possible. That's it. No active link to using your abilities and mobility against enemies. This results in players just looking for long hallways to run down, or jumping around in circles like maniacs. Instead, they should be encouraged and rewarded with extra charge for running through mobs, catching many enemies in thermal sunder, and getting kills at high speed and in parkour.

--

So far my only complaint with the battery itself is how overly redundant the devs were with precautions on the whole mechanic.  They stack so much on top of it but also severely hamper it by doubling down on drain sources and limiting your flexibility with said mechanic.  you can't really mod around it at all of which I already knew but just from playing does make it understandable on why people feel like they're fighting the battery.  I do agree that rewarding extra battery for accomplishing things with his abilities would be a nice addition to his kit.

On 2019-09-16 at 11:06 AM, Brucely said:

Fair, agree to disagree and all that, but I'm curious how you define a 'generic team buffing frame'? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Trinity is an example of this for you. Trinity: best healer, energy generator, but generally boring to play for many people. It's kinda like playing medic in Team Fortress 2, where your main job is to stay alive and give heals, rather than blow S#&$ up. Gauss, in his current state, is hardly like that, and will never be like that because he and Trinity are thematically very different. Gauss is speed, while Trinity is healing.

Generic buffer frame to me means just buffer frames in general.  I don't mind team play at all.  It just gets a little stale when it's a linear thing instead of something organic like cc.  Hence why i'd rather they make his cc better than simply allowing him to slap stats on his allies.  It's a preference thing.

On 2019-09-16 at 11:06 AM, Brucely said:

That's not say sticking to those themes needs to be strictly selfish and one-dimensional. Have you played Nezha? Primarily a speedy CC tank who can nuke rooms by comboing Divine Spears and Blazing Chakram, but then also steps into team utility by buffing damage to enemies AND health and energy pickups with Chakram. Why can't Gauss also have a bit of team utility like that? DE could make Gauss's Redline buffs sharable like I described, and he would be far from a 'generic team buffing frame', don't you think?

I have played Nezha pre and post rework.  But I haven't fully explored the depths of Nezha post rework.  particularly working in his blazing chakram.

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