A consideration for damage 3.0

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

If, and that's a big if, we ever get damage 3.0, one thing that I think should be taken into consideration is the extremes to which enemy elemental resistances and weaknesses exist. We all know there are only 3, maybe 4, elemental damage types that are worth building for, and we all know why. Corrosive or slash+viral are the only things that can deal with high level armor, and gas or toxin (which are kind of the same thing in a way) are for anything that has shields. And the only reason you use radiation on bosses is because they are immune to status, and again because of their armor.

Yes exponentially scaling armor is the core problem here, but I think elemental resistances and weaknesses are often overlooked. There's a reason why you don't want to over-strip the ferrite armor off a target with corrosion, because then you lose a huge 75% damage bonus. I don't think that should even be a problem.

Even if armor scaling is fixed, there will still only be 3 or 4 damage types that are worth using, because they will still be whatever the target is weakest to by a large margin. There will still be next to no reason to build for pure heat, or cold, or electricity, or blast, or magnetic, or even puncture and impact, because damage is the name of the game in Warframe right now.

So I think it would be wise to take another look at enemy resistances and weaknesses and just squash that range down by quite a lot. For example, corrosive doing +25% to ferrite armor, rather than 75%. Yes corrosive should still be better against armor than heat, for example, but not by so much that the latter is laughable compared to the former. My point is, the damage bonus that one elemental type receives should not be so extreme that it far outweighs the status effects of less damaging types. If I'm playing a squishier frame and I want to build a damage type that will stun or disable enemies so they don't hit me as much, I shouldn't be so incredibly punished for it when it comes to my damage. I'll take doing a little bit less damage in exchange, but what we have now is ridiculous.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

If, and that's a big if, we ever get damage 3.0,

I assumed it was scrapped, which is sad because of how badly it is needed.

I agree that the damage types with the only useful status procs should not also do the most bonus damage, to any enemy types. The most useful status procs should give the lowest damage bonuses, so there is reason to diversify rather than have universally superior builds that work for most occasions. 

There are 3 configuration options on weapons for a reason. I can tell you, in all the years I've played this, I never mod separately configurations based on faction, because the good mod setups are decent enough for almost everything that it's not necessary. The only reason I use alternate configurations are for Frames that need specific setups (like Ember needing fire on her weapons) or situational setups like Nightwave or Riven objectives.

[Guest]

Damage 3.0 is not needed,overhaul of procs yes.Balance of all procs to make them all viable is I guess titanic effort that i doubt DE will undertake

[Walkampf]

I'd like to see a reduction of +Damage.

Having to switch to specific elemental combos for specific factions doesn't add anything to te game right now.

If enemy factions had more shuffled armor types, then it whould be a a part of gameplay, like if Grineer had shields as well as armor, you'd need one weapon to deal with shields and one for dealing with armor.

But right now it's only, that I know I'm fighting Grineer up front, so I take all 3 weapons specifically for fighting armored units.

I'd like to see a lot more randomness with enemies,so that you have to try to cover as many eventualities as possible instead on specialising on one certain situation.

[TheKazz91]

I'd love to see a damage 3.0 rework. I think it can really be handled in a number of different ways but I'd love to see the weaknesses and resistances to be beefed up significantly. You don't even need to change the exponentially increasing EHP due to armor issue (though I think shields should be brought up to that same level of that doesn't change.) You can just make the weaknesses effect that DR calculation. Off the top of my head you could have that weakness reduce the total DR provided by that armor. So for example farrite armor has a +75% weakness to corrosive so if some level 150+ enemy has 99% DR because of that armor instead of just getting 75% more damage for using corrosive, the Total DR is reduced by 75% so if you're using corrosive damage the effective DR is now only 24.75% instead of 99%. Alternatively it could just effect the total armor value in which case it would eventually still get to the point where that DR might still get back up to 99% but it might increase the level required to get that DR from 130ish to 500+

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

I would rather deal with the armor and damage scaling then have everything nerfed into the ground across the board. DE knows if they change literally all the things people love they will receive all the hate the world has to offer so they are unlikley to make any crazy changes though. I wish to stay a demi god and live my power fantasy with all my formad and Potatoed gear kept in tact... 

[prodi1600]

The next damage should reduce the fight between crops and elements, they should be together not fighting each other to happen, also I think that to have the 3 proc in each weapon doesn't make sense it would be better if they simplify it and the proc would depend on weapon type and make all the procs do damage for the love of god.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

19 hours ago, (PS4)sister-hawk said:

There's a reason why you don't want to over-strip the ferrite armor off a target with corrosion, because then you lose a huge 75% damage bonus. I don't think that should even be a problem.

I am almost certain that this isn't a thing.

[Urlan]

Damage 3.0 was a different idea that Status 2.5. That said, part of damage 3.0 was the removal of progression mods (vitality, Serration, vital sense, rush), mods that just give stat boosts ala a leveling system from an rpg. Status 2.5 was focused up to the point we saw on a heavy nerf to how slash worked, but then making impact and puncture give smaller bonuses that for impact were improved based on the level of base impact physical damage applied in a status proc (Ie Gorgon would stagger while Vulkar would ragdoll and so forth) and puncture's damage weakening effect would be reduced from the current 60% on proc to a reduced amount that would improve per repeated puncture proc leaning heavily towards fast fire rate weapons with base puncture to stack up to a higher maximum damage reduction for the duration of the proc. Most players that commented on the subject, including youtubers and forum goers; felt that Status 2.5, at least what was shown was underwhelming for a focused move and DE eventually pushed it back to be re-evaluated which I feel was a good idea considering how little it benefited player mechanics.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

I am almost certain that this isn't a thing.

Actually that is how armor and shields work surprisingly enough.

If proto shields are broken there is no extra damage dealt by magnetic because the enemy no longer has a stat with that type of weakness, since the shields are zero the weakness is no longer applied. The same holds true if you reduce armor to zero because the enemy no longer has that second health type so they no longer have the weaknesses of that armor.

This was noticeable with the Wolf because both his health and armor were Alloy Armor and when his health bar turned red from zero armor he lost the double weakness to Radiation.

Usually this isn't really a problem because enemies rely on armor for damage reduction, however this is an issue when there is an overlap of weaknesses like with the Wolf.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Aldain

[Panser_Nes]

My personal gripe with damage 2.0 is how unintuitive it is that adding IPS stats are almost always negatively affecting your weapons performance because of status proc weighting.

The only exception here is Slash in some cases. But even Slash is desired as a negative on many Rivens for more corrosive procs. Largely due to how effective corrosive is at killing tough enemies quick.

 

No matter how great your Slash build is, Corrosive will kill it quicker.

 

Nerfing Corrosive would make Slash more viable, but I think many would agree this is not a desired approach. Reducing the effectiveness of enemy armor is an indirect nerf to both Corrosive and Slash.

There are fixes to be made for the remaining IPS values, Puncture and Impact. For example you could make a Puncture proc ignore armor for that shot. Impact procs could permanently reduce the target's max health by, say, 20% of current health (akin to denting, caving in armor). These are just ideas, you may or may not get the point.

You could target the source of the problem, the enemy armor, a fix to the exponential armor scaling would reduce the need for corrosive damage. But would now render Slash less desired, unless an overall buff to Slash's tick-rate and/or damage was issued. Making it a generally good proc to have for all types of health. I do expect Gas to take over as king if armor is made weaker. That would have to be adjusted as well, as much as I love my Gas damage.

 

 

Rivens:

The current state of IPS is furthering the random element and peak prices of Rivens, as you are now not looking for 3 positive stats and a harmless negative in a best case scenario. You are looking for 4 positive stats on the same riven.

Removing IPS has a huge effect on status chance weighting. The game prioritizes IPS four times higher than elemental damage. Based on the amount of total damage that damage type holds. If a weapon does 2000 impact damage and 4000 corrosive, whenever a status proc occurs you are twice as likely to get an Impact proc over a Corrosive proc. Effectively, this Impact damage divides your status chance by 3. A minus 100% Impact riven by itself is tripling your amount of Corrosive procs.

 

 

You can also mention the fact that Impact procs as of now screws with your aim, and makes headshots harder, further reducing effective dps.

Your point of corrosive procs completely removing armor instead of leaving it very low is also removing the bonus damage Corrosive holds towards Ferrite armor, is a good one (what a sentence!). This means shooting and enemy more reduces the damage you deal to them, I think we can agree, not very intuitive.

It is unnecessarily complicated when dealing with a horde of enemies to take into consideration. Parrying and melee Stances with Combos is also an example of unnecessarily complicated combat systems in a horde shooter.

 

I will end this post by saying I hope enemies stay tough to kill, enemies that soak more bullets are more fun to shoot at. Seeing numbers fly everywhere is enjoyable for me and I would like to keep that aspect.

 

[BeardyKyle]

all Good points. The way I see it is Corrosive is king because of that -armor rather than that +75

It May be too risky a move to nerf corrosive to make the other types as viable, the backlash would be madness.

I would suggest reducing the value on all -health/armor/shield effects but also adding them to the status effects of other damage types at various intensities. 

For example. (And I don’t presume to know what values would make sense, if you do I’ll happily edit this post)

-armor includes; puncture (-7.5% armor), corrosive (-15%armor), blast(-10%armor)

-health includes; slash, heat and poison (-a%health), viral(-a% health)X1.5, gas (-a% health)x2

-shields includes; impact, cold, electricity (-a%shields), magnetic (-a%shields)x2, radiation (-a%shields)x1.5

This reduces the gap between the weaker elements and stronger ones and the need for corrosive, while putting more focus on using the best combination for the situation. 

Dropping the +75 of corrosive down to +25 in this instance would be a trade off rather than a straight nerf.

I also see adding a critical multiplier based on status chance/duration necessary to keep those sweet damage numbers up as well as keep beam weapons that don’t deal ips still viable. 

Adding more faction variations like grineer with shields or infested units that keep their shields/armor from when they used to be grineer/corpus would be great too. Since -health effects seem to be the strongest here.

 

Hopefully this makes sense.