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Greenshockclaw

Ember's kit is sad, and it makes me feel sad. Let's make it not sad!

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   Ember was the first warframe I built when I started playing the game. I was super excited to finally have something other than volt, and played nothing but ember until I sold her to make space for a new warframe, and never thought about her again. Until I did. I've read a lot of ember threads on the forums since the change to world on fire, and recently built ember prime to see if things were really as bad as people said they were. After playing her for a bit, here's my takeaway:

            Ember is a low survivability, ranged damage warframe who doesn't do much damage, and has 2 abilities that only work when ember is close to her target.

If that doesn't make sense to you, then congratulations! It doesn't make sense to me either.

Ember's design conflicts a lot with what DE seems to want her to be: a glass cannon with high aoe damage output. There's a lot of things wrong with all 4 abilities in her kit, and they could all use overhauls to make them a little stronger and more versatile. Let's change some things to make ember a little less of a catastrophe.

 

Ember relies on fire as an elemental damage type

It makes sense that the fire warframe would deal a lot of fire damage, but it hinders her damage potential because fire has what is arguably the worst elemental proc. Fire procs don't stack, they can't be overwritten by stronger procs, and they don't do much damage to anything with more armor than a t shirt. Ember should be changed so that the bulk of her damage is inflicted by her abilities alone, using fire procs to stun and boost dps. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't rely on fire a little bit.

Ember's passive

Ember's current passive is suicide Ignition: When ember, the low health/armor warframe with no survival tools, sets herself on fire, she gets +35% ability strength and 10 energy/sec for as long as she remains on fire.

This passive sounds cool on paper, but since ember has no way to recover health or mitigate incoming damage, you'd be better off just doing anything other than taking advantage of it. 

How about instead, we give ember a passive that not only doesn't encourage the player to kill themselves, but also gives her damage a much needed boost?

 Proposed passive: Not Ignition: Fire procs caused by ember will deal a percentage of their damage as finisher damage, and affected enemies can spread the fire to their allies. (fire procs will instead deal a percentage of enemy max health every tick)

This passive will buff the damage of all of ember's abilities, and make her slightly less useless against high armor enemies.

 

With that out of the way, we can start tackling ember's abilities one by one. Anything in parenthesis needs feedback before being added to the ability. some abilities might also need be moved to a new spot because of changes to their power level.

 

FIREBALL

Spoiler

Fireball is ember's basic damage ability. the problems it suffers from are the same problems that almost every early warframe's 1 suffers from: it's the most basic application of ember's fire theme, and is really only a weaker version of every other ability in her kit. I want to change it to increase its damage and cc potential.

Proposed Ability: Fireball 2,Thermal Boogaloo: ember fires a plume of flame that continues in one direction and explodes in a small area when it makes contact with a surface. Fireball 2 will deal damage to and pass through any enemies it makes contact with, and sets them on fire. (The damage of fireball increases every time it hits an enemy, or with distance travelled / fireball will knock down all enemies hit / fireball keeps the ability to leave balls of napalm on impact / fireball does 650 damage on hit)

The new fireball gives ember a stronger 1st ability that keeps the spirit of the original design, but increases damage output and CCs enemies without needing to rely on inconsistent fire procs. I also removed the lingering napalm ball of the normal fireball, so that the ability's use wont overlap as much with my proposed changes to accelerant. 

ACCELERANT

Spoiler

Accelerant is ember's only cc only ability, that's also a damage and casting speed buff. it's useful, but its limited range means that ember has to put herself at risk to use it to any effect, and the unmoddable stun isn't very long, leading to very embarrassing deaths.

Proposed Ability:  Accelerant 2, Accelerate harder: Ember launches a fast projectile that explodes on contact with a surface, covering the area and any enemies in the radius with a highly flammable substance. Enemies in the radius will also be stunned for 2s on impact.  Any enemies that pass through the accelerant will also be coated in accelerant for the duration of the ability. coated enemies will take increased damage from fire, and If a coated enemy takes ANY damage, they will burst into flames and have an increased chance to ignite nearby enemies. coated enemies have a further increased chance of being ignited by nearby flaming enemies. Being ignited WILL NOT remove the accelerant effect from an enemy.  (the next ability cast after using accelerant is instant and costs 25% less energy to cast / If the pool of accelerant is hit with fire damage, or a flaming enemy passes through it, it will ignite and no longer coat passing enemies. instead, it will act like a more powerful version of fire blast's ring, dealing constant damage and guaranteeing a fire proc to any enemies that pass through the inferno.)

Spoiler

Proposal 2: accelerant remains largely unchanged, but gains a small amount of range, increased stun time, and changes to the accelerant effect mentioned above will be applied.

Now accelerant is no longer limited by only affecting enemies next to ember, and acts as a strong cc and area denial tool. It serves its original purpose of being both cc and a damage buff, and ember finally has a way to set the ground on fire that isn't also awkward and weak. This ability can be used with fireball to make short work of groups of enemies at any distance. *I moved the ignition part of the ability because having one ability that both boosts the power of fire damage AND deals fire damage is a little bit too strong*

FIRE BLAST

Spoiler

Fire blast is by far my favorite ember ability, if only because the knockdown/knockback effect is really fun to abuse. Unfortunately, its no longer needed because accelerant and fireball now do its job. What is needed, however, is some way for ember to keep herself alive. DE don't seem to want to give ember some sort of damage reduction body shield, so she'll need some other way to not get killed. My first thought was to give her some sort of wall that blocks projectiles, but that's boring and like 5 other warframes already do something similar. What a lot of warframes don't do though, is mess with enemy accuracy. 

Proposed Ability: is it hot in here, or is it just you?/ Heatwave: Channeled ability. Ember heats up the air around her, causing it to distort and making her difficult to see. The further away an enemy is, the less likely they are to be able to pinpoint ember, making their chance to land a direct hit significantly worse with distance. The closer enemies are to the source of the heat, the more exhausted they become, slowing their movement and making melee attacks easier to avoid. Casting other abilities while heatwave is active will reduce their cost, and temporarily reduce the channeling cost of heatwave. (accuracy debuff ranges from 25% at the closest, and 75% at the max distance. slow ranges from 0% at the farthest to 30% at the closest. cost reduction of abilities cast is is ~25%, and the cost reduction of heat wave itself is ~50%)

Spoiler

Proposal 2: heatwave becomes ember's new 4th ability, and fire blast continues to exist. the ring of fire becomes bigger, and no longer has a safe spot in the middle. it deals increased damage, and knocks enemies down instead of staggering them. fire blast no longer knocks away enemies within the radius of the ring on initial cast.

Heat wave gives ember a way to mitigate incoming damage without forcing her to hide behind cover or stay in one place. The accuracy debuff gets weaker as enemies get closer, encouraging ember to keep her distance if she doesn't want to get shot at. the slow applied to approaching enemies also provides some protection against melee attackers to make the ability a little more useful against the infested. The cost reductions encourage more ability use, and make ember slightly less of an energy vacuum.

WORLD ON FIRE

Spoiler

delet this '_' World on fire is the most complained about part of ember's kit, and it isn't really hard to see why. It doesn't need any interaction from the player, costs an insane amount of energy, and only exists so people can keep killing enemies while they go to the bathroom. It's a boring ability, and has no synergy with any other ability in ember's kit. There's no reason for this ability to be kept in its current state or otherwise, and it should be replaced with something that's actually fun to use. That said, I've read a few good ideas for a new 4th so far, and I'd like to throw my hat into the ring with my own proposal. 

Proposed Abilities: Eruption 1:  A pillar of flame rises from the ground at the location of the crosshair, dealing high damage to and igniting any enemies or accelerant it comes into contact with, and melting enemy armor. All abilities can be cast while Eruption is active. Ember can move at a reduced speed while hovering, and the pillar of flame will slowly follow the movement of the crosshair. (Ember leaps into the air and hovers in place. The pillar of flame deals 2000 damage per second to enemies inside it, damage decreases the further an enemy is from the center of the pillar)

                                  Eruption 2: Ember summons a volcano at the location of the crosshair that spews fireballs in every direction around the volcano. Fireballs will explode on contact with anything, dealing damage and inflicting fire and blast procs on enemies hit. Enemies that make contact with the volcano itself will be set on fire and targeted by a fireball. Allies standing near volcanoes will deal additional fire damage with their weapons. (fireballs deal 400 damage on impact)

The first proposal gives ember an incredibly strong damage dealing ability that lets her quickly spread fire around a large area and weaken enemies for follow up attacks. (it may be a little too similar to wisp's sol gate though) 

The second gives ember another powerful area denial tool that can also buff allies and ember herself.

 

That took a while to type.

Ember's new kit will make her a strong ranged damage dealer with limited survival tools and relatively high energy consumption. She won't have to risk getting close to enemies to deal damage, and her fire procs will actually be a threat. 

This thread mainly exists because I thought I had a really good idea for accelerant, and so I built everything around that ability. I'd love some feedback so I can edit the post and make the abilities a little more solid.

P.S. I don't actually have that much experience with current ember, so if you think you know more than me, please feel free to let me know if I got something wrong or misunderstood the purpose of an ability. I don't want to make ember into a different warframe, just make her better at what she already tries to do.

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1 hour ago, Greenshockclaw said:

Proposed passive: Not Ignition: Fire procs caused by ember will deal finisher damage

Does it also cause slash procs?

1 hour ago, Greenshockclaw said:

Fireball is ember's basic damage ability. the problems it suffers from are the same problems that almost every early warframe's 1 suffers from: it's the most basic application of ember's fire theme, and is really only a weaker version of every other ability in her kit. I want to change it to increase its damage and cc potential.

Proposed Ability: Fireball 2,Thermal Boogaloo: ember fires a plume of flame that continues in one direction and explodes in a small area when it makes contact with a surface. Fireball 2 will deal damage to, knock down, and pass through any enemies it makes contact with, and has a high chance of setting them on fire. (The damage of fireball increases every time it hits an enemy, or with distance travelled)

The new fireball gives ember a stronger 1st ability that keeps the spirit of the original design, but increases damage output and CCs enemies without needing to rely on inconsistent fire procs. I also removed the lingering napalm ball of the normal fireball, so that the ability's use wont overlap as much with my proposed changes to accelerant. 

It's better, but bloated. It's unbalanced to have it knock down AND pass through enemies. Personally, I'm leaning towards it being able to pass through enemies.

1 hour ago, Greenshockclaw said:

Accelerant is ember's only cc only ability, that's also a damage and casting speed buff. it's useful, but its limited range means that ember has to put herself at risk to use it to any effect, and the unmoddable stun isn't very long, leading to very embarrassing deaths.

Proposed Ability:  Accelerant 2, Accelerate harder: Ember launches a fast projectile that explodes on contact with a surface, covering the area and any enemies in the radius with a highly flammable substance. Enemies in the radius will also be stunned for 2s on impact.  Any enemies that pass through the accelerant will also be coated in accelerant for the duration of the ability. coated enemies will take increased damage from fire, and If a coated enemy takes ANY damage, they will burst into flames and have an increased chance to ignite nearby enemies. coated enemies have a further increased chance of being ignited by nearby flaming enemies. If the pool of accelerant is hit with fire damage, or a flaming enemy passes through it, it will ignite and no longer coat passing enemies. instead, it will act like a more powerful version of fire blast's ring, dealing constant damage and guaranteeing a fire proc to any enemies that pass through the inferno.  (the next ability cast after using accelerant is instant and costs 25% less energy to cast)

Now accelerant is no longer limited by only affecting enemies next to ember, and acts as a strong cc and area denial tool. It serves its original purpose of being both cc and a damage buff, and ember finally has a way to set the ground on fire that isn't also awkward and weak. This ability can be used with fireball to make short work of groups of enemies at any distance. 

It has a bigger base range than WoF, my dude. This is a straight up downgrade of Accelarant when it comes to casting.

1 hour ago, Greenshockclaw said:

Fire blast is by far my favorite ember ability, if only because the knockdown/knockback effect is really fun to abuse. Unfortunately, its no longer needed because accelerant and fireball now do its job. What is needed, however, is some way for ember to keep herself alive. DE don't seem to want to give ember some sort of damage reduction body shield, so she'll need some other way to not get killed. My first thought was to give her some sort of wall that blocks projectiles, but that's boring and like 5 other warframes already do something similar. What a lot of warframes don't do though, is mess with enemy accuracy. 

Proposed Ability: is it hot in here, or is it just you?/ Heatwave: Channeled ability. Ember heats up the air around her, causing it to distort and making her difficult to see. The further away an enemy is, the less likely they are to be able to pinpoint ember, making their chance to land a direct hit significantly worse with distance. The closer enemies are to the source of the heat, the more exhausted they become, slowing their movement and making melee attacks easier to avoid. Casting other abilities while heatwave is active will reduce their cost, and temporarily reduce the channeling cost of heatwave.

Heat wave gives ember a way to mitigate incoming damage without forcing her to hide behind cover or stay in one place. The accuracy debuff gets weaker as enemies get closer, encouraging ember to keep her distance if she doesn't want to get shot at. the slow applied to approaching enemies also provides some protection against melee attackers to make the ability a little more useful against the infested. The cost reductions encourage more ability use, and make ember slightly less of an energy vacuum.

I'm not even going to comment on this one.

1 hour ago, Greenshockclaw said:

delet this '_' World on fire is the most complained about part of ember's kit, and it isn't really hard to see why. It doesn't need any interaction from the player, costs an insane amount of energy, and only exists so people can keep killing enemies while they go to the bathroom. It's a boring ability, and has no synergy with any other ability in ember's kit. There's no reason for this ability to be kept in its current state or otherwise, and it should be replaced with something that's actually fun to use. That said, I've read a few good ideas for a new 4th so far, and I'd like to throw my hat into the ring with my own proposal. 

Proposed Abilities: Eruption 1: Ember leaps into the air and hovers in place. A pillar of flame rises from the ground at the location of the crosshair, dealing high damage to and igniting any enemies or accelerant it comes into contact with, and melting enemy armor. All abilities can be cast while Eruption is active. Ember can move at a reduced speed while hovering, and the pillar of flame will slowly follow the movement of the crosshair.

                                  Eruption 2: Ember summons a volcano at the location of the crosshair that spews fireballs in every direction around the volcano. Fireballs will explode on contact with anything, dealing damage and inflicting fire and blast procs on enemies hit. Enemies that make contact with the volcano itself will be set on fire and targeted by a fireball. Allies standing near volcanoes will deal additional fire damage with their weapons.

The first proposal gives ember an incredibly strong damage dealing ability that lets her quickly spread fire around a large area and weaken enemies for follow up attacks. (it may be a little too similar to wisp's sol gate though) 

The second gives ember another powerful area denial tool that can also buff allies and ember herself.

WoF has synergy with Accelarant, but then again, so do all her abilities. I don't know why people still think Ember can use WoF as an AFK ability when the nerf has destroyed any possibility of that happening ever again. As for the proposals:

  1. Basically, just Hidryn's 4 and Ignis in one ability but with less use. Armor stripping is nice though, but not on an "ultimate".
  2. I can't even imagine the amount of visual noise this would cause.

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19 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Does it also cause slash procs?

Fair enough, how about: Fire procs caused by ember will deal a percentage of their damage as finisher damage

35 minutes ago, Blexander said:

It's better, but bloated. It's unbalanced to have it knock down AND pass through enemies. Personally, I'm leaning towards it being able to pass through enemies.

Noted

35 minutes ago, Blexander said:

It has a bigger base range than WoF, my dude. This is a straight up downgrade of Accelarant when it comes to casting.

The main idea is that the casting location is changed from around the caster to at target location. a slight reduction in range in exchange for the added power of the ability and the ability to cast from a safe distance seems like an upgrade to me

41 minutes ago, Blexander said:

I'm not even going to comment on this one.

I would be really happy if you did. i'm not against scrapping the ability entirely if you have a better idea

42 minutes ago, Blexander said:

1. Basically, just Hidryn's 4 and Ignis in one ability but with less use. 1.5. Armor stripping is nice though, but not on an "ultimate".

2. I can't even imagine the amount of visual noise this would cause.

1. Hildryn's 4 and 1 were actually something I had in mind when I was trying to think of replacements for her 4. I was hoping it would be different enough to stand on its own though. It could just leave ember on the ground, but then the pillar might be hard to control.

1.5. Why not?

2. Alot, I hope. It's meant to be chaotic because fire is chaotic, and I want it to fit the theme

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14 minutes ago, Greenshockclaw said:

I would be really happy if you did. i'm not against scrapping the ability entirely if you have a better idea

Accuracy reduction is very inreliable depending on the percentage. Also, stealth is not something that fits Ember's theme. Having it be an AoE around Ember is ok, but its should be either regen or DR because accuracy is unreliable, as I stated above.

14 minutes ago, Greenshockclaw said:

1.5. Why not?

The idea of an "ultimate" ability differs from frame to frame based on theme. For DPS frames to gain the full benefit of their damage, they need to shred armor before they use their strongest skill, unless the ability does true/finisher damage, but even then, they have armor stripping on their other skills. Notable examples are Saryn and Ash (with the augment for Shuriken).

14 minutes ago, Greenshockclaw said:

Fair enough, how about: Fire procs caused by ember will deal a percentage of their damage as finisher damage

Maybe have it do % of current HP/tick with a minimum damage cap. That way you don't fall on the gimmick of giving frames finisher damage to make up for not having large numbers, and it doesn't make her an OP room-clearer for the sake of going toe-to-toe with meta DPS frames.

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36 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Accuracy reduction is very inreliable depending on the percentage. Also, stealth is not something that fits Ember's theme. Having it be an AoE around Ember is ok, but its should be either regen or DR because accuracy is unreliable, as I stated above.

It is unreliable, but it still does reduce the damage you'll take overall. I was thinking that it should sit at around 75% base, with mods bringing it to a cap of around 80-90%. It's not necessarily stealth, it's more like an extreme version of the mirages you'd see on and above the road on a hot day. I'm trying to avoid straight up damage reduction, but regen sounds interesting. Although I don't know how to make it an ability.

46 minutes ago, Blexander said:

The idea of an "ultimate" ability differs from frame to frame based on theme. For DPS frames to gain the full benefit of their damage, they need to shred armor before they use their strongest skill, unless the ability does true/finisher damage, but even then, they have armor stripping on their other skills. Notable examples are Saryn and Ash (with the augment for Shuriken).

The armor reduction is there so that you do more damage to a target the longer you attack them, like what sol gate does. It also sets it apart from the other damage abilities in the kit by giving it a unique function.

53 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Maybe have it do % of current HP/tick with a minimum damage cap. That way you don't fall on the gimmick of giving frames finisher damage to make up for not having large numbers, and it doesn't make her an OP room-clearer for the sake of going toe-to-toe with meta DPS frames.

I'll add it to the post. Switching to %hp runs the risk of being too weak against low level enemies and being too strong against high level enemies though.

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1 hour ago, Greenshockclaw said:

The armor reduction is there so that you do more damage to a target the longer you attack them, like what sol gate does. It also sets it apart from the other damage abilities in the kit by giving it a unique function.

Let me just get this straight, the 1st WoF replacement you proposed works as a damage/tick, right? If that's the case, it having armor stripping is good, if we assume that it doesn't strip armor once, but rather with each tick. Either that, or have it take a large % of enemy armor on contact, but this way, the initial hit of the skill would be the weakest. Armor stripping/tick fits her design of melting armor more, in my opinion.

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5 minutes ago, Blexander said:

Let me just get this straight, the 1st WoF replacement you proposed works as a damage/tick, right? If that's the case, it having armor stripping is good, if we assume that it doesn't strip armor once, but rather with each tick. this way, the initial hit of the skill would be the weakest. Armor stripping/tick fits her design of melting armor more, in my opinion.

That's exactly how it works

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I can certainly agree with the intent to rework Ember, as well as some of the criticism, but I disagree with some of the methods proposed by the OP to fix her problems:

  • Ember is the fire frame: her reliance on Heat damage isn't the problem, Heat damage itself is. We don't talk about how Volt is too dependent on Electricity damage, or Frost on Cold damage, because those damage types do mostly fine. Thus, instead of giving Ember a passive that makes Heat damage worthwhile for her only, we ought to rework Heat damage itself so that it's worth a damn. I'd personally be willing to get rid of the CC effect entirely if it allowed for the status effect to stack its damage, and maybe even enable spreading to nearby enemies. If this were to mean Ember would lose some CC there, she could always make up for it by having more on her abilities.
  • While this is a common proposal, one that would also let Ember avoid the current redundancy in her kit, damage mitigation or avoidance I don't think is something Ember should have to rely on to work. Reduced enemy accuracy/percentage avoidance chances especially so, because those tend to be unreliable and still lead to players getting one-shot at higher levels. If Ember, one of the game's designated glass cannon frames, needs a survivability effect just to do her job, then the game's balancing of enemy damage is fundamentally broken and needs to change, which I think is the case. I'd rather have an environment where enemies deal reasonable amounts of damage at all times, and thus allow squishy frames to exist and do well, than one where even the squishiest frame needs some kind of durability steroid, simply because that's what everyone needs to be viable.
  • While I agree that World on Fire in its current state is the single biggest problem with Ember, I do think it's possible to salvage it. Currently, its main design issue is that the player can activate the ability whenever they like, and due to how poorly controlled the game's Energy economy is, they can hold the damage aura up basically forever. What could be a climactic expression of power becomes an ability that, as the OP said, is boring and voids synergy with the rest of Ember's kit. If the ability's activation were put under tighter control, however, for example some Baruuk-style meter that builds up when Ember sets stuff on fire, that flaw would be resolved, and Ember could be allowed to have a much stronger WoF that she'd have to use sparingly, as opposed to the current anemic version.
  • Side note, but I feel Fireball, and Fireball 2, should always set enemies on fire, even if Heat status is to keep its CC. It's really weird for a fire ability to not set enemies on fire, and given how easy it is to apply Heat status via weapons at this stage, there's no reason that the game's fire frame should have a harder time igniting enemies than some handgun made of scrap or whatever.

With that said, though, there is much to the proposal that I like: turning more of Ember's abilities into skillshots that reward her for landing direct hits I think would make her significantly more interesting, and I think is gameplay many more frames could benefit from. While I may not necessarily agree with the function of every ability, I also like how the OP proposes to give every single one in Ember's kit a distinct function and their own advantages, so that she'd have a reason to use all of the toys in the box. Thus, I don't think it would actually take that many amendments to the above proposal for me to consider it the perfect update to Ember, and even with no changes at all, the OP's suggested kit would almost certainly be a direct improvement.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Ember is the fire frame: her reliance on Heat damage isn't the problem, Heat damage itself is. We don't talk about how Volt is too dependent on Electricity damage, or Frost on Cold damage, because those damage types do mostly fine. Thus, instead of giving Ember a passive that makes Heat damage worthwhile for her only, we ought to rework Heat damage itself so that it's worth a damn. I'd personally be willing to get rid of the CC effect entirely if it allowed for the status effect to stack its damage, and maybe even enable spreading to nearby enemies. If this were to mean Ember would lose some CC there, she could always make up for it by having more on her abilities.

While this is a common proposal, one that would also let Ember avoid the current redundancy in her kit, damage mitigation or avoidance I don't think is something Ember should have to rely on to work. Reduced enemy accuracy/percentage avoidance chances especially so, because those tend to be unreliable and still lead to players getting one-shot at higher levels. If Ember, one of the game's designated glass cannon frames, needs a survivability effect just to do her job, then the game's balancing of enemy damage is fundamentally broken and needs to change, which I think is the case. I'd rather have an environment where enemies deal reasonable amounts of damage at all times, and thus allow squishy frames to exist and do well, than one where even the squishiest frame needs some kind of durability steroid, simply because that's what everyone needs to be viable.

AFAIK DE is still working on damage 3.0 and the game's overall difficulty curve. We don't know anything about what they have so far, or what changes might be implemented, so we can't design rework ideas around new systems yet. There's been a bunch of threads about overhauling damage, health, etc., but I wanted to keep this one just about ember for simplicity's sake, and so that the ember rework wouldn't be dependent on an accompanying gameplay rework. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 While I agree that World on Fire in its current state is the single biggest problem with Ember, I do think it's possible to salvage it. Currently, its main design issue is that the player can activate the ability whenever they like, and due to how poorly controlled the game's Energy economy is, they can hold the damage aura up basically forever. What could be a climactic expression of power becomes an ability that, as the OP said, is boring and voids synergy with the rest of Ember's kit. If the ability's activation were put under tighter control, however, for example some Baruuk-style meter that builds up when Ember sets stuff on fire, that flaw would be resolved, and Ember could be allowed to have a much stronger WoF that she'd have to use sparingly, as opposed to the current anemic version.

Maybe. Personally I just don't like the ability at all, but I can't deny that it's possible to make it more interesting to play with. What if the current ability was combined with some part of heatwave, like maybe a weaker version of the energy reduction and the energy cost changes, so that using wof alongside her other abilities wouldn't be as expensive? 

 A nidus/baruuk-ish resource system like you mentioned could add a lot to the entire kit, letting you fuel up wof using her 1, 2, and 3 to unleash a devastating rain of fire and maybe temporarily power up all of her abilities while it's active, kinda like what gauss does with his battery and redline.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Side note, but I feel Fireball, and Fireball 2, should always set enemies on fire, even if Heat status is to keep its CC. It's really weird for a fire ability to not set enemies on fire, and given how easy it is to apply Heat status via weapons at this stage, there's no reason that the game's fire frame should have a harder time igniting enemies than some handgun made of scrap or whatever.

With that said, though, there is much to the proposal that I like: turning more of Ember's abilities into skillshots that reward her for landing direct hits I think would make her significantly more interesting, and I think is gameplay many more frames could benefit from. While I may not necessarily agree with the function of every ability, I also like how the OP proposes to give every single one in Ember's kit a distinct function and their own advantages, so that she'd have a reason to use all of the toys in the box. Thus, I don't think it would actually take that many amendments to the above proposal for me to consider it the perfect update to Ember, and even with no changes at all, the OP's suggested kit would almost certainly be a direct improvement.

I'll update Fireball 2's description. I wanted it to be just a little bit weaker to make using accelerant more appealing when you want to set things on fire.

Also, thanks. If you have more ideas then I'd love to hear them, any suggestion can help improve the rework.

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3 hours ago, Greenshockclaw said:

AFAIK DE is still working on damage 3.0 and the game's overall difficulty curve. We don't know anything about what they have so far, or what changes might be implemented, so we can't design rework ideas around new systems yet. There's been a bunch of threads about overhauling damage, health, etc., but I wanted to keep this one just about ember for simplicity's sake, and so that the ember rework wouldn't be dependent on an accompanying gameplay rework. 

While I understand that the intended scope is restricted to just Ember, reworking her without addressing any of the systemic problems that are currently affecting her is bound to make for a kit that would be temporary at best, and at worst one that may risk warping her identity. In this particular case, giving her a passive that basically just fixes Heat by itself, and a 3 that gives her survivability when she's meant to be a fragile frame, means that a large portion of her new kit is already put at risk by future systemic changes. 

3 hours ago, Greenshockclaw said:

Maybe. Personally I just don't like the ability at all, but I can't deny that it's possible to make it more interesting to play with. What if the current ability was combined with some part of heatwave, like maybe a weaker version of the energy reduction and the energy cost changes, so that using wof alongside her other abilities wouldn't be as expensive? 

 A nidus/baruuk-ish resource system like you mentioned could add a lot to the entire kit, letting you fuel up wof using her 1, 2, and 3 to unleash a devastating rain of fire and maybe temporarily power up all of her abilities while it's active, kinda like what gauss does with his battery and redline.

Indeed, the basic idea is that WoF wouldn't use Energy at all, would no longer have that stupid stat change mechanic over time, and would deal a lot more damage, but would instead feed off of this resource built up by setting enemies on fire. Thus, Ember's gameplay would be to build up the resource via her 3 "basic" abilities, and then activate her "ultimate" ability for a limited, but incredibly strong AoE nuke aura.

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17 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

While I understand that the intended scope is restricted to just Ember, reworking her without addressing any of the systemic problems that are currently affecting her is bound to make for a kit that would be temporary at best, and at worst one that may risk warping her identity. In this particular case, giving her a passive that basically just fixes Heat by itself, and a 3 that gives her survivability when she's meant to be a fragile frame, means that a large portion of her new kit is already put at risk by future systemic changes. 

Indeed, the basic idea is that WoF wouldn't use Energy at all, would no longer have that stupid stat change mechanic over time, and would deal a lot more damage, but would instead feed off of this resource built up by setting enemies on fire. Thus, Ember's gameplay would be to build up the resource via her 3 "basic" abilities, and then activate her "ultimate" ability for a limited, but incredibly strong AoE nuke aura.

Sounds like my Rework kit. 

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I honestly agree, I think that DE shouldn't be able to penalize the frame, Ember because she used to wrekt low level trash. and honestly if that was the way their rule was for ever frame then every frame would be worse than Wukong was before he got a rework. I think that no, straight up saying that a frame should be restricted by being able to mop the floor with low level enemies is an excuse to just make a really amazing frame less appealing. Ember looks good, has really cool skins and is a cool frame in general but people don't care for her because she doesn't have a kit that works. My point is that maybe instead of giving trashy reasons why you are nerfing a popular frame. maybe give people something worth their time money or resources. Honestly is real bad for Ember. Although her kits isn't an bad a Nyx is still is bad and needs work. When Frost Prime released with Ember Prime in the Frost Prime and Ember Prime bundle was released. I actually wanted it genuinely wanted to play both of them and wanted to use them. Later I get Ember and play with her and I cried because of her state. She was not one of my first frame built, but I really thought, "Wow! I want to make Ember good again." So now if DE will listen which it seems they don't but hopefully they do, I would like for Ember and Nyx to have a well thought rework. Or things are going to go down hill. They want money but what is a business ultimately suppose to do? I logically think serve but I understand the point which they are coming from and that any thing in this world is meant to be bought, sold, or made to make some sort of amount of money. On the day Ember was nerfed to her current status was the day I know it's time to realize that we are the reason DE is still working on this game so if we chose not to do anything more, (not trying to say anyone isn't doing anything.), then we can't complain. It also applies for DE, if they don't listen they cant complain that nobody is play their game. So my hope is that DE does listen, not only to the things that DE thinks is good for the game and also leads everyone, but to some ideas that are going to help the game like ideas the community has not some TennoGen, or some cosmetics but ACTUAL content like maybe we can get an open world for Mars, lore on why the relay, on Mars, is destroyed, maybe some missions that differ from kill, kill, kill, like more missions that are observing what the Grineer are doing, what the Corpus are doing, see how the Infested are doing. I mean maybe we could have an invasion mission with the Grineer, and Corpus up against the Infested and Sentients and maybe make Infested Sentients. Have this take place on the open worlds and you the Tenno chooses which to fight for in an epic war. Bring Raids back, since I have heard they were fun. Make the game feel Co-Op again. A dear friend introduced me to this game so we could hangout together but now its kinda lost it's luster. And the first step is to make all frame equally balanced and have well thought reasons for what happens. And as the Player, we have more power than the game or DE does. Not saying that "Let's all fly to London, Canada to protest." but try and shift the plate to DE. And honestly I could be wrong in saying we should do it, because we could already be doing it. I love this game and I am so sad at it's current state. and how cruel Ember is being treated.

 

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On 2019-09-12 at 9:24 PM, Excaulibar said:

~snip~

The Ember nerf fiasco is something I'll never forget. I know every single detail of the events that lead up to the nerf, save for DE's actual thoughts on her.

The story goes as follows:
-a fairly new player would go into a public mission
-his team would contain an Ember
-Ember would cast 4 and occasionally 2 and run through the map start-to-finish
-mission is completed within minutes
-Ember has 80%> of all damage dealt that game
-process repeats for several months
-a very small group of the playerbase would complain that they can't kill things
-not once was a concrete nerf proposed
-repeat for a while
-DE, with no way of soothing the crowd, and no idea on what to do to appease them, decided to nerf the aspect they thought made her OP, that being range, and NOT the obvious "line of sight" requirement Ember didn't have at the time, nor does she now
-they say the reason for the nerf was the "turn on and forget" part of WoF
-new players don't care about her anymore, she's literally just MR fodder
-Ember mains unjustly suffer(ed)
And that's how Ember's legs got broken.

Needless to say, "we don't like "turn on and forget" skills, they don't fit our vision of game" is bullS#&$, because Maim-bouncing is a thing, along with other skills and frames that can kill high-level enemies at the same range as max range Ember (for clarity, if you built Ember for range, you wouldn't do any damage, because: a) maximization was in the game b) heat damage is still weak) and at the same time, are toggle-skills and lack "line of sight" requirements. Absolutely hypocritical. They never told us the real reason for the nerf, but you don't need to be a detective to figure out it was just to appease the whining new players, because "happy new players = more money", I guess. So they #*!%ed over a chunk of the playerbase, larger than the one complaining about her in the first place, over literally petty reasons. All they had to do was put a LoS requirement for WoF and be done with it, but no, they went the extra mile and nerfed her range TWICE. I've went over the numbers before, but still, she loses 75% of the area coverage she had before just so she can deal 100% more damage. Zaws can outrange her with ease.

It was a major #*!%-up and they didn't own up to it yet.

Side note: A lot of people don't understand the phrase "Ember is the new Mag", defending Mag for being a good frame, meaning they didn't play the game back when Mag was ungodly awful. And now, we're going to be seeing another Mag readjust so her abilities can fit into the new cinematic trailer. Mag is clearly favored buy the team, that's why she's getting another look at her kit despite not needing one. How about we have a "World on Fire" that actually sets the world on fire and not a "Small Room on Fire", yeah? (in all seriousness, WoF needs to go away, and be replaced by something better)
Side note #2: I'm genuinely glad that Vauban mains can finally rejoice and enjoy an updated version of their favorite frame. If the rework turns out well, there's hope for Ember in 2020. And here's hoping Damage 3.0 fixes Heat damage and scales down enemy HP and Armor, as well.

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17 hours ago, Blexander said:

Needless to say, "we don't like "turn on and forget" skills, they don't fit our vision of game" is bullS#&$, because Maim-bouncing is a thing

I have to agree with this, unfortunately. I think to some extent DE genuinely believes in it, as they should, it's just that they have made absolutely no effort towards applying that design development consistently across other frames, namely Equinox, who was already a better Ember than Ember prior to her nerfs. In the case of Saryn's rework, they took that problem and made it significantly worse. I'd absolutely love to have a game without fire-and-forget abilities that cause the game to play itself, but then perhaps we should start applying that to the actual problem frames first, as opposed to the ones that were mediocre to begin with.

I think what stung the most with Ember was both the general lack of care she was given with her "rework", and the fact that she was already struggling even before then: when it comes to frames with problematic AoE nukes, Equinox has the exact same issue as Ember, for example, except her Slash aura scales even better than Heat damage, arguably making her an even bigger problem. Saryn and Mesa are notorious for clearing rooms of high-level enemies with minimal effort, and just recently Hildryn came out with a fire-and-forget damage aura that's made her the new low-level lawnmower. On top of that, when Ember got changed, the buffs she was given were far too minor and unfocused to make up for the nerf to WoF in any way, let alone direct her towards a healthier playstyle: not only did the change nerf her nuking, it also made her a worse CC frame too, because the range decrease trashed Firequake. Not only did her changes feel like kicking a weak frame when she was already not in a great spot, their significantly negative impact on her playstyle and complete lack of follow-up balance work makes it feel like the developers don't give a damn about her. There is much on her that could easily be buffed to ease her pain that it begs the question as to why nothing has been done yet.

On 2019-09-12 at 3:59 PM, (PS4)MyUnhealthyHobby said:

Sounds like my Rework kit. 

Honestly, I think your Incinerate ability is brilliant, and I want to see that incorporated into Ember's kit. Beyond that, I think there are some core design principles/assumptions that we and more people share, regardless of whether or not we've seen each other's proposals.

On that note, at this point my own take on Ember would likely be the following (with your Incinerate/Scorching Blight lifted almost wholesale):

  • Preliminarily, I'd like to see the following general changes along the following lines to help Ember:
    • Damage from Heat status should stack.
    • Enemies affected by Heat status should also likely spread their Heat status to unaffected enemies in close proximity to them.
    • All base (though not necessarily composite) elements should ignore at least a portion of armor: this is already the case with Toxin and Cold damage, but should also be the case with Electricity and Heat.
  • Also, side note, but I believe most if not all ability casts should be one-handed actions, and with the below abilities I think it would make sense if Ember's casts did not interrupt the rest of her actions.
  • Passive - From Ashes: Upon taking fatal damage, Ember revives instantly and releases a persistent flame nova that deals heavy Heat damage to enemies who touch it, with 100% status chance. This effect recharges upon applying Heat status to a certain number of enemies.
  • 1 - Ignite: Ember summons a delayed explosion of flame at the target location that deals Heat damage to enemies within, and leaves a patch of fire that deals persistent Heat damage to those in contact with it. Both the explosion and patch have a 100% Heat status chance.
    • Augment - Ignition Frenzy: No mechanical changes.
  • 2 - Accelerant: Ember produces a continuous jet of accelerant (which doesn't interrupt her other actions) that staggers enemies on direct contact and leaves behind fuel that sticks to anything it touches, slowing affected enemies. Upon being hit with Heat damage, the fuel ignites, significantly increasing the Heat damage inflicted.
    • Augment - Flash Accelerant: The accelerant can now stick to allies and Ember herself, increasing casting and reloading speed (scaling with Strength). Setting it on fire does not damage the ally, but still spreads to enemies, and gives the ally status and stagger immunity.
  • 3 - Conflagration: Ember violently extinguishes the target fire, whether it be an enemy affected by Heat status or an environmental fire, causing it to generate an explosion that strips enemies hit of armor, staggers them, and deals Blast damage equal to a base amount plus the remaining Heat damage. The explosion also snuffs out all fires it affects, generating the same explosion from them that repeats indefinitely.
    • Augment - Convection: Ember heals for a portion of the damage dealt, and gains bonus armor for a portion of the armor stripped from enemies.
  • 4 - World on Fire:
    • Passively, Ember builds up a gauge from the Heat damage she deals to enemies.
    • When activated, Ember deals Heat damage to all enemies on the map, with 100% status chance, based on their maximum health + shields. This consumes no Energy, but instead drains her gauge (affected by Duration and Efficiency).
    • Augment - Firequake: Unchanged.

The general idea being that with Ember's core kit, you'd be gumming up enemies with Accelerant, setting them on fire with Ignite, then blowing them up with Conflagration, and on the right occasions/after enough buildup, you'd be activating World on Fire to incinerate everyone. With augments, Ember would be able to become much more supportive, as she can now, and could opt into survivability.

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