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Asdryu

Harrow got old

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Pun intended in the title because he has already that noble stance.

Anyways, everyone was like "rip volt" but to me Gauss is (thank you) gonna replace Harrow for his 2nd ability, except for the health regeneration, but that's fine. Gauss' redline literally boosts every kind of speed, charge attack rate included and the cc is really good when you get the hang of thermal surge.

Now. What do I have against Harrow? A lot, actually.

1st of: yes, I don't care about Eidolons. MVP is Volt for that.
2nd and most importantly: he's the self support that never replaced Trinity at all. Most of his buffs only go to him and being a caster frame, all the max energy he has is a miserable 150 to just reach 425 with a maxed primed flow (300 for nostalgic flow). BASIC AF! And forget about Thurible's utility if there's an Equinox, Saryn, Mesa- you name 'em. There's no energy for "assists" and any kill that's not with a weapon... as if.

He's one of those frames/things that "it needs this and this and that" and when I hear so much of it I say "it needs to go"
Let's see how.

Duration is really important for Harrow, so narrow minded? Nyes. Now you also need stretch because his 1st ability is the main opener and will grant you safety (when you're not surrounded), but you also need strength to boost the effectiveness of its abilities and you may also need efficiency because you already have to use 1 and 2 in combination, but maybe you should've used Thurible before to make the energy you need for your cycle, but also if enemies are already high level Harrow is already squishy and your 1st ability is the only cheap resource you have and... JESUS! You see?!
One other thing I noticed is that you either have enough energy to don't care(thanks to thurible and enough sandbags to kill) or flat out gasping for it.

How could this be changed?
Easy solution: increase his base energy- bandaid fix that might come with an eventual Primed variant.

  • Condemn. Width of condemn is affected by range mods and travel time by duration. Condemn is already an ability that's both heavily affected by line of sight and obstacles because it's limited on the ground. This will help with the variety of builds
  • Penance. Cost should only asks shields. At the moment, penance asks for both shields AND energy (50). Harrow already can't take many hits and penance will also lock you in place for 2 seconds. It has the amazing quirk to heal and is affected by affinity for its range.
  • Thurible. Thurible is a standalone ability in his kit that has an amazing augment that SADLY CAN'T go in the exilus slot (why? Same question goes for covenant's one).



Leaving Covenant out of it. It's what makes Harrow, Harrow. It's extremely situational and both buffs are extremely useful. The augment is disappointing, especially since it can't even fit in the exilus slot. An augment to help with the management of Protection and Retaliation would make more sense.

You are NOT getting kills with Harrow if you're in a squad, and you need kills to get energy and there are also many better frames to choose if you want to go solo. This is the main issue I have with this frame of which I cannot understand what his place is.
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If I'm going to be completely honest, this post reeks of misinformation, bias, and ignorance/the lack of understanding his kit. 

Unlike Trinity, who can generally support any team composition, Harrow's situational use supports high risk, high reward squads. A squad that often is in the forefront of the action to kill larger enemies such as bosses or mini-bosses with far increased damage. You don't use Harrow to support low risk, high reward squads such as a Mesa, Equinox, or Saryn since -- obviously -- you need low-tier enemies and considerable aiming skill to get the largest benefit from your abilities. Forcing yourself to contest with wide-reach Warframes is the same as bringing Hildyrn to shieldless, armorless enemies. You're working against synergy in its purest definition. 

39 minutes ago, Asdryu said:

Duration is really important for Harrow, so narrow minded? Nyes. Now you also need stretch because his 1st ability is the main opener and will grant you safety (when you're not surrounded), but you also need strength to boost the effectiveness of its abilities and you may also need efficiency because you already have to use 1 and 2 in combination, but maybe you should've used Thurible before to make the energy you need for your cycle, but also if enemies are already high level Harrow is already squishy and your 1st ability is the only cheap resource you have and... JESUS! You see?!

This is a gross over-exaggeration of any situation Harrow is in. There is nearly no reason you should not have Thurible maintained, and the rest of these issues become non-existent, like other frames. This is about the same as over-complicating Nidus' kit by arguing you only have so much energy to cast either Virulence or Larvae, and only one of them will get you enough stacks and energy, but maybe you should use the other one to kill enough enemies to maybe drop an energy orb. In reality, these decisions can be calculated in less than one second, and are not very difficult to come to the most effective conclusion. 

Simple synergy with weapon loadouts boost your effectiveness. A Zenistar or Glaive is the best choice for Harrow's kit as they are both wide reaching and capable of hitting headshots, one being able to do slow and steady damage for your penance to keep you alive. A Ferrox can keep enemies in place to keep this synergy going, as well as make it far easier to hit headshots and provide crowd control. A kitgun with pax seeker combines well with your disposition to aim high. 

 

Maybe the only thing I can agree with you on is that the Augment for Thurible is one of many that belongs in the Exilus slot, but that's only because many of the augments should be eligible for the exilus slot. 

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2 hours ago, Asdryu said:

Penance. Cost should only asks shields. At the moment, penance asks for both shields AND energy (50). Harrow already can't take many hits and penance will also lock you in place for 2 seconds. It has the amazing quirk to heal and is affected by affinity for its range.

That's a decent suggestion, although I'd be good with just reducing the cost drastically.  A close equivalent is Valk's Paralysis, which is only 1/15 of the normal energy for a 3, And only 1/3 of her shields rather than all of them.  (Speaking of which, a change that's been on my mind is reducing the shield sacrifice to 66 or 75% of his total.)

I'd also enjoy an increase in his base energy.    It would facilitate his  battery role a bit, and make it easier to get the ball rolling at the start of missions without dropping an energy pad.  Reducing the cost of Penance would assist in this too, of course, as well as helping him ramp up after getting nullified / drained at the wrong time / falling into a chasm, etcetera.

 

 

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I know he's not a nuke, but if you can't kill stuff with Harrow, you have a serious problem or you're playing low levels where Harrow is not needed and everything can die from Dayquinox slash proc

He's the kind of frame that makes any weapon good. If trash mobs get killed to quickly, concentrate on heavies. Or you can bring Amprex/Ignis :-)

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Harrow is far better made than Trinity, I'd take him over her any day. All Harrow's existence has done is highlight how dated, old, Trinity's kit is.

Harrow encourages active gameplay, with his 2 standard support abilities being more of a passive response to his active gameplay. Trinity can literally just spam the only 3 usable abilities she has nonstop with no regard to the condition of her team. 

I'll tell you a secret about Harrow. If you're having trouble getting kills in order to restore health/energy to your allies, then you aren't needed in the first place. As your allies slow down due to tougher enemies or lack of energy then you're able to contribute more which keeps the team flowing. Trinity is actually no different in that regard, but with the spammy nature of her abilities no one stops to calculate how much over-healing/over-energizing they're actually doing and realize for a second that she wasn't needed either.

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3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

That's a decent suggestion, although I'd be good with just reducing the cost drastically.  A close equivalent is Valk's Paralysis, which is only 1/15 of the normal energy for a 3, And only 1/3 of her shields rather than all of them.  (Speaking of which, a change that's been on my mind is reducing the shield sacrifice to 66 or 75% of his total.)

I'd also enjoy an increase in his base energy.    It would facilitate his  battery role a bit, and make it easier to get the ball rolling at the start of missions without dropping an energy pad.  Reducing the cost of Penance would assist in this too, of course, as well as helping him ramp up after getting nullified / drained at the wrong time / falling into a chasm, etcetera.

 

 

This, exactly. Harrow is extremely painful to start and if you die/get nullified even Nidus will look easier to scale.
I can understand arcanes- I farmed for them. Even Zenurik- I worked for it (even though I'd like to use some other focuses), but I'd like to use pads only when the situation is drastic.

56 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

Harrow is far better made than Trinity, I'd take him over her any day. All Harrow's existence has done is highlight how dated, old, Trinity's kit is.

Harrow encourages active gameplay, with his 2 standard support abilities being more of a passive response to his active gameplay. Trinity can literally just spam the only 3 usable abilities she has nonstop with no regard to the condition of her team. 

I'll tell you a secret about Harrow. If you're having trouble getting kills in order to restore health/energy to your allies, then you aren't needed in the first place. As your allies slow down due to tougher enemies or lack of energy then you're able to contribute more which keeps the team flowing. Trinity is actually no different in that regard, but with the spammy nature of her abilities no one stops to calculate how much over-healing/over-energizing they're actually doing and realize for a second that she wasn't needed either.

I agree and disagree with you. When I look for fun in a frame I look through its whole kit and Trinity is useable... It suffers from some of Harrow's problem indeed too (spending most of the time just buffing), but rather than just mass killing, she has the underrated capability to kill in creative ways. Her 1st is disappointing and it's just fun for Simulacrum's extreme tests. Feels like it should also be one handed

On the other hand it feels like Harrow needs the kills more than Nekros.

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