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FrostDragoon

We still don't have a fix for the issues created by the melee changes

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It's been... what? Almost a year? This system is strictly inferior to the previous with the exception of targeted ground slams. DE, please, PLEASE do something about this!

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you can expand on the topic rahter than just whinning?

Personally, the only thing I miss is quick melee (most noticeable thing on sparring weapons like hirudo, kogake, etc).

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There are tons of threads about it, so I didn't feel it was necessary to "expand" on it. It's pretty common knowledge. Issues with controls, removal of manual blocking, trouble with channeling, gliding with melee weapons, etc...

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In this case why you didnt up these topic , i think it'll be more "valuable" than create a duplicate.

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35 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

the only thing I miss is quick melee

And yet, the button that you use for Melee, is also Quick Melee, but with stances being used, which is -exactly- what the majority of the player base wanted ever since Melee 2.0 went live.

A reason for you to be missing Quick Melee is if DE did what the minority wanted: Complete removal of the Quick Melee, which is what makes sense. Melee materializing on the hands? As versatile as Void Energy is when used, short range teleport from the holster to the hand is stupid. Yet, it was made like that because~...

... There are only SO many buttons on a gamepad. So who do we -really have to blame- for this broken reversed-to 1.0 Melee system that we call 2.9997? I blame gamepad users... In case the platform is a console, I blame the console companies both for making the consoles in the first place, but also for not updating their gamepads with 103 buttons + directional pad +2 analog sticks + 5 hand pedals.

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My only issue is lack of manual blocking, aside from that I like the new system better. That said, I can't wait for the stance updates.

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8 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

I blame the console companies both for making the consoles in the first place, but also for not updating their gamepads with 103 buttons + directional pad +2 analog sticks + 5 hand pedals.

their existence isn't a problem, only that despite games for decades struggling with the limitations imposed by the Controllers, they have stayed.... exactly the same in all of that time, only changing the decorative shell on the outside.

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20 minutes ago, Dr_Shadox said:

In this case why you didnt up these topic , i think it'll be more "valuable" than create a duplicate.

Because people like you would just complain about "necro thread, hurrr."

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1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

It's been... what? Almost a year? This system is strictly inferior to the previous with the exception of targeted ground slams. DE, please, PLEASE do something about this!

There are only a handful of things that are "strictly inferior" to Melee 2.0

1.) Manual blocking, which was used more for parkour than it was to actually block damage by most of the casual playerbase.

2.) Held channeling, which hardly anyone ever used for more than life strike which isn't even used much anymore, not due to toggle channeling being the only option but due to having far more regeneration options that don't take any energy or a mod slot. 

3.) Quick melee for a select amount of melee weapons. 

Aside from quick melee, these are by far the smallest parts of melee that are now inferior. Gaining the ability to quickly swap to melee, and get additional speed and precision with slam attacks far outweighs these changes. *Originally, I did overvalue these mechanics but after a few months and numerous bug fixes, it did shape up to not be regression. If we're going to be completely honest, very few things actually changed with Melee. Most of the complaints made in threads are about the fact that it brought issues that already existed to the forefront, like how bad a lot of the stances were. 

 

48 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

A reason for you to be missing Quick Melee is if DE did what the minority wanted: Complete removal of the Quick Melee, which is what makes sense. Melee materializing on the hands? As versatile as Void Energy is when used, short range teleport from the holster to the hand is stupid. Yet, it was made like that because~...

... There are only SO many buttons on a gamepad. So who do we blame for this broken reversed-to 1.0 Melee system that we call 2.9997? I blame gamepad users... In case the platform is a console, I blame the console companies both for making the consoles in the first place, but also for not updating their gamepads with 103 buttons + directional pad +2 analog sticks + 5 hand pedals.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or stupidity. If anyone's to blame, it's honestly DE's control scheme layout. When I played either of my two console accounts, I had buttons left in excess by changing it to something more logical than what DE defaults to. With a few simple revisions that they've been ignoring for years, there would be no need for this bias. It's already fixed extremely simply with some shift functions that anyone has access to. Developers not trusting their users' feedback on the matter and then having half the community blame them for problems that aren't their fault is idiocy at its finest.  

48 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

And yet, the button that you use for Melee, is also Quick Melee, but with stances being used, which is -exactly- what the majority of the player base wanted ever since Melee 2.0 went live.

Clearly, there must be two realities. I've seen plenty of people ask for the ability to change what default stance they use in quick melee, but what you seem to be ignoring is that there was a stance combo for some melees that actually have been removed, which if you didn't cut from the post you originally quoted, you might have noticed. Sparring weapons lost quite a nice base loop that they had for quick melee for something slower. So did fist, polearm, and staff melees. There has also been a sizable portion of the community that asks if these loops could've simply been added to the list of combos for all applicable stances. Are you going to blame console users if DE removes the first combo from all of these stances to replace it with the loop instead of doing what the community asked for? 

Edit: No stances were removed, only unlisted combos. 

Edit 2: Not enough clarification on my stance. Melee 2.999 is marginal, but still, irrefutably, improvement. 

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46 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

And yet, the button that you use for Melee, is also Quick Melee, but with stances being used, which is -exactly- what the majority of the player base wanted ever since Melee 2.0 went live.

A reason for you to be missing Quick Melee is if DE did what the minority wanted: Complete removal of the Quick Melee, which is what makes sense. Melee materializing on the hands? As versatile as Void Energy is when used, short range teleport from the holster to the hand is stupid. Yet, it was made like that because~...

... There are only SO many buttons on a gamepad. So who do we -really have to blame- for this broken reversed-to 1.0 Melee system that we call 2.9997? I blame gamepad users... In case the platform is a console, I blame the console companies both for making the consoles in the first place, but also for not updating their gamepads with 103 buttons + directional pad +2 analog sticks + 5 hand pedals.

I don't get your point but going fast just punching things instead of breakdance everything was pretty nice and more quick imo, maybe i'm wrong.

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23 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

There are only a handful of things that are "strictly inferior" to Melee 2.0

1.) Manual blocking, which was used more for parkour than it was to actually block damage by most of the casual playerbase.

2.) Held channeling, which hardly anyone ever used for more than life strike which isn't even used much anymore, not due to toggle channeling being the only option but due to having far more regeneration options that don't take any energy or a mod slot. 

3.) Quick melee for a select amount of melee weapons. 

Aside from quick melee, these are by far the smallest parts of melee that are now inferior. Gaining the ability to quickly swap to melee, and get additional speed and precision with slam attacks far outweighs these changes. 

1. That doesn't mean the rest of us should be denied the option. I preferred the old melee MUCH more, and the extra "speed" of the new system isn't worth what was sacrificed for it.

2. Set an option in Options to choose held or toggle. Seems simple enough.

3. I don't mind that quick melee was always there and still is. This is pretty non-sequitur as far as I'm concerned.

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il y a une heure, FrostDragoon a dit :

Because people like you would just complain about "necro thread, hurrr."

Where did i complain ?
I just said these kind of duplicate are ignored since they are only "duplicate" and a proof people prefer make a new thread instead of searching an existing one before.

But as you want , good luck...

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7 minutes ago, Dr_Shadox said:

Where did i complain ?
I just said these kind of duplicate are ignored since they are only "duplicate" and a proof people prefer make a new thread instead of searching an existing one before.

But as you want , good luck...

Why would I need to search an existing one, and how would that help anything? You want me to bump one I was reading from March? Gtfo with that nonsense.

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"Your concerns have been heard..."

Which concerns, though? I'm not bashing DE, but I would like them to be more specific. This kind of vague language is stuff we're used to hearing from EA right before they implement something awful and cause a huge $#!7 storm. I know DE isn't EA, but it's a pattern all of us gamers have become far too accustomed to.

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12 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

There are only a handful of things that are "strictly inferior" to Melee 2.0

1.) Manual blocking, which was used more for parkour than it was to actually block damage by most of the casual playerbase.

2.) Held channeling, which hardly anyone ever used for more than life strike which isn't even used much anymore, not due to toggle channeling being the only option but due to having far more regeneration options that don't take any energy or a mod slot. 

3.) Quick melee for a select amount of melee weapons.

4) Meleeing puts your scanner/mining laser/fishing spear away, meaning that you need to actively go back and pull it out of the gear wheel every single time you swing at an enemy.

5) Syndicate procs on your guns don't work any more, because the moment you swing your sword, they stop charging up or draining to reset for the next blast.

6) You can't alt-fire straight after meleeing. I notice this on the Corinth mainly because I use it a lot, other alt-fire weapons (azima?) would also likewise suffer.

7) Automatic reload upon magazine depletion is blocked because the damn sword forced itself into my hand when I never asked for it.

😎 You can't melee with an archgun out any more.

The *ability* to quickly swap to melee would have been fine. Actively forcing the stupid thing into my hand and throwing out what I was using is not.

4 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

"Your concerns have been heard..."

Which concerns, though? I'm not bashing DE, but I would like them to be more specific. This kind of vague language is stuff we're used to hearing from EA right before they implement something awful and cause a huge $#!7 storm. I know DE isn't EA, but it's a pattern all of us gamers have become far too accustomed to.

Our concerns were heard... and then promptly ignored. Nowhere does it say what was done with the information, but their actions speak pretty clearly: the entire issue has been met with only silence for the past 7 months.

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I was having a weird dream this morning, but it gave me a (potentially good?) idea...

Revert the old melee system back into place, but instead of the current "Quick Melee" system, give each Warframe an unarmed attack that they would perform if they have a primary/secondary out. This would be the new "Quick Melee" replacement. This wouldn't put your current weapon away, but would allow you to break containers, perform ground slams, aerial kicks (for knockdowns), etc. What it doesn't have to have is the combo system, separate mods that support it, or the other things people actually want proper melee to have (channeling/blocking/removed aim gliding, etc).

It doesn't have to be too in depth either. Just give all warframes a base "unarmed damage" based on their level and maybe scaled with armor to be more or less consistent with most of the themes carried by various frames. This damage should be extremely negligible past enemy level 15 or so, but it could situationally help a tiny bit for newer players who don't have their mods jacked up yet.

Just kind of spit-balling here, but conceptually I think it would be a better approach than undercutting Melee 2.0 in such a way that all the weapons, frames, and mods have their entire balance arbitrarily thrown out of whack for nothing.

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On 2019-09-11 at 12:33 PM, DoomFruit said:

4) Meleeing puts your scanner/mining laser/fishing spear away, meaning that you need to actively go back and pull it out of the gear wheel every single time you swing at an enemy.

5) Syndicate procs on your guns don't work any more, because the moment you swing your sword, they stop charging up or draining to reset for the next blast.

6) You can't alt-fire straight after meleeing. I notice this on the Corinth mainly because I use it a lot, other alt-fire weapons (azima?) would also likewise suffer.

7) Automatic reload upon magazine depletion is blocked because the damn sword forced itself into my hand when I never asked for it.

Listing mostly irrelevant QoL changes doesn't do anything for the argument. We could sit and go over for years about the minor problems both things had, namely some that even overlap with this, for example 5 has always existed, the only difference is that now it's not just when you switch to your archgun, secondary, synthesis scanner or spear, it's just additionally your melee. This isn't a melee problem, it's a syndicate proc problem that people have been asking to change forever now. 6 also existed before instant swapping because the animation for putting away your melee still existed, and locked a couple of actions. However, point for point it's still faster than the old system because you can simply tap the aim button, and then the alt-fire button. Corinth is currently my most used weapon, and often I'm juggling the airburst and radiation for melee stealth multipliers because it will reset alert levels. I've never had a problem using the alt-fire instantly after meleeing.  7 doesn't even exist. Unless you mean when you completely run out of ammo and the game forces you to change weapons, which is an option and not related or exclusive to melee, auto reload has worked just fine, and the use for holster reloading mods and set bonuses have become far more relevant and smooth. 

On 2019-09-11 at 12:33 PM, DoomFruit said:

😎 You can't melee with an archgun out any more.

 

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I wouldnt say its "inferior" , i would call it incomplete. Also there are many other discussions like this , you may want to put this under the melee feedback.

It is still something i dislike in its current state and want it to be finished.

Things i absolutely hate:

Zero holster time - feels lazy and makes the need of holster mods for other weapons feel redundant, a "combat holster" style of animation would have been preferred where there is a clear but smooth change of style from melee to ranged but isn't as abrupt as it is now.

Melee gliding not possible - so i can either jump with my melee and block as i drop like a rock or aim glide with my gun as i get sprayed with bullets on my face.

Things i dislike but can live with :

Auto blocking and no manual option - hurts some of the builds and playstyles.

Stances with block buttons - can get weird with some weapons where you start aiming your gun if you forget to lift your finger off the aim button.

Channeling button and alt fire on some ranged weapons - this has happened quite often , i have my trusty corinth or zarr there's a bunch of enemies coming at me so i press the alt fire on the weapons and try to kill em with an AOE attack , what happens? nothing , my weapon starts glowing for a second which is easily missed unless you are paying attention to it. i panic thinking i am out of ammo or glitched , i jump away and check my ammo , no ammo , then it hits me (i also get hit my enemy fire ) i am holding a melee cause i hit one enemy that was too close. wasted opportunity and i feel very annoyed. in case of the zarr i can get killed cause i forget what was the mode cannon or shotgun?

 

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If a mod wants to move it to a more appropriate section of the forums, I won't mind, as long as it's genuinely to increase relevance rather than to stifle/hide discussion (as some forums do with their "mega threads" as a form of censorship).

They can keep the rapid switching from melee to range if they want, but I want my manual blocking back. That's the main thing. There are niche builds that can use these kinds of things which don't make sense when it's automatic, especially around the Sword & Shield weapon type.

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I honestly like the Current Melee system for like 90%. But recently i picked up my Lession and Orthos again and notice something super annoying. With melee 2.0 you were able to "spin" the thing in front of you, resulting in good Frontal clear and no speed lost. With Melee 2.999 you do a Strike,then the old spinning thing ad then another strike which then stuns you for 0.5-1 secont depending on your attack speed. I tried every Stance and even playing without but this super stupid "self stun" after every 3rd hit is inevitable.

So polearmes are dead to me till they fixed this issue. Its litteraly unplayable if you are used to extremely fast an fluid gameplay.

But most of the other changes are really good. I like the Groundslamms, The Auto Block, Channeling is for me on ALT so if i need it once every 200 missions i can use it easy and the Auto switch to melee weapon is ok to, IF you wouldnt be forced to use thees slow ass Stances. 

For the Stance problem i have a pretty simple solution in 2 variants.

1.) Add a Button to every Melee weapon in Arsenal to enable or DIsable the stance so its replaced with the old fast Melee

2.) Add the Option to disable Combos in generall

3.) Add another Keybound Melee attack. So pressing E is Quick melee like it was in 2.0 and lets say F is the Auto switch thing. And before Console player cry out, Its  not a mandatory Keybinding. So you just have to use 1 of them. If you want both i guess get a PC or unbind something useless like Channeling lol

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I rebind all my keys anyway--even on my PS4 account--so that's not such a big deal. Perhaps the auto-block should be a toggle too. That way people who prefer manual can still do that.

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6 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

Listing mostly irrelevant QoL changes doesn't do anything for the argument.

No, they're quite relevant. Quality of life is the whole purpose of this. Fluidity and control are exactly what DE have ruined here.

6 hours ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

 7 doesn't even exist. Unless you mean when you completely run out of ammo and the game forces you to change weapons, which is an option and not related or exclusive to melee, auto reload has worked just fine, and the use for holster reloading mods and set bonuses have become far more relevant and smooth.

No, it does. Take a Vectis or Exergis (easiest to demonstrate here because they're both single round weapons). Shoot once, run around for a bit (for instance, if you're getting in position to hit another enemy) and then shoot again. Note how your gun has reloaded in the interim.

Then try again, but this time you shoot once, melee a few times and then keep running around. Then try to shoot again... you won't, because your gun's empty.

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17 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

No, they're quite relevant. Quality of life is the whole purpose of this.

In the terms of the full version of melee 3.0, that's what you're forgetting here. It's in Phases, with the end goal being Melee 3.0. If your point is "that's stupid" I agree but not to the point that I'll say the entire new phase is inferior due to relatively minor infractions to how you play the game.

17 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

No, it does. Take a Vectis or Exergis (easiest to demonstrate here because they're both single round weapons). Shoot once, run around for a bit (for instance, if you're getting in position to hit another enemy) and then shoot again. Note how your gun has reloaded in the interim.

Then try again, but this time you shoot once, melee a few times and then keep running around. Then try to shoot again... you won't, because your gun's empty.

That's lack of awareness. If I shoot my weapon until my mag empties, and then switch to my secondary until the enemy is dead, I can't blame that on secondaries being able to be swapped to, can I? Switch back to your weapon, all you have to do is press the aim or fire button for the smallest interval possible. 

If we're going to complain about the melee system, we should complain about the melee system. Things you've listed aren't problems that the melee system makes, they exist around that weapon category, or the mechanic's category, not playing nice with other items in the first place. We're not going to make them fix the melee system by having them focus on how reloading works, or how syndicate procs don't reset when switching the active weapon. Because those aren't the problems the melee system made, or the feedback they're looking for. This is what I mean by them being irrelevant. I'm not saying they don't matter for the flow of the game, but that it means nothing to the melee system itself, and the feedback for it needs to be in their categories.

Or maybe I'm just biased because I've mained Excalibur for 6 years, and when these same problems showed up in different ways (syndicate procs not resetting when I activate 4, reloads breaking when I quick swap through slash dash) and I've simply learned to play around all of these things by being more aware of my guns, counting shots, reloads and cooldowns.

7 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I agree, except for the busted syndicate interactions.

iirc, DE made those changes a week or two after syndicates and syndicate mods were implemented, because without such a cooldown they activated ALL of the time, and boosted players found they activated instantly when even in the swapping animation. 

They nerfed boosted affinity interactions and made the cooldown exclusive to active weapons after that and then left it to rot. When I said people were asking for this to change for years, I honestly wasn't exaggerating as it really did hurt a lot of weapons. 

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