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Make operators cooler with one simple trick!


FrostDragoon
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Add a new slot to our focus tree that we can put any one node from a different school into.

Let's say I'm using Vazarin as my primary tree. I could put Stone Skin from Unairu into that slot to get the extra armor in operator mode. (Not saying this is any kind of optimal combination, btw. Just an example.)

This would add incentive for people to branch out into other trees and try different combinations out while increases the cool factor of operators themselves a fair bit.

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My initial thought was 'Heck, that whould be OP.'

Then again, as was already pointed out, Operators, while already VERY strong, are still massivly underestimated,

So, considering this, I'm actually very much fine with the idea.

It seems that 90% of all operators are only there to profice Zenuriks Energy regen anyway. This might allow people to choose other school, if they had the ability to take the Energy regen with them to another school.

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Ah, a suggestion on how to improve our Tenno progression? I would suggest first giving us a Void blast amp to go along with, and be used in tandem with the void laser amp. Eventually having a Void Dash amp (maybe rings or amplifiers on your boots or shins) and Void Shadow Amps, (maybe a decoration on the Tenno's chest ala a Chest armor on warframes). This would allow more customization while boosting the Tenno's effectiveness since Tenno do not use mods for scaling, unlike warframes.

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I'm gonna say no to this...

Operators are incredibly powerful, and while they're lacking something...this is not the answer. As other's have mentioned it would just allow for combination of things like Void Strike and Unairu Wisp on one tree, or like 99% of the player base just add Energizing Dash to literally any tree (which already broke the game's energy economy on it's own - literally single worst decision DE has ever made).

That's not customization. That's just a new meta.

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25 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

That's not customization. That's just a new meta

At the very least it'd be a more flexible meta. Having Energizing Dash everywhere you'd be more free to choose if you'd rather use Naramon to boost your melee, Vazarin to protect defense targets, or even Madurai for a small damage buff if you don't need anything else. Similarly for Eidolons, you simply don't need UW on everyone - so someone might opt to protect their frame from magnetic procs with Vazarin's dash, or alleviate energy issues with Zenurik to save on pizzas.

But I'll agree that it's just utility powercreep, and dumping even more utility on operators isn't going to make them more exciting. Their gameplay and mobility options are simply lacking compared to that of frames, while their utility is overwhelming. So improving the latter would only further pigeonhole them into a per need use basis, which is the opposite of making them more interesting. 

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Just now, vFlitz said:

At the very least it'd be a more flexible meta. Having Energizing Dash everywhere you'd be more free to choose if you'd rather use Naramon to boost your melee, Vazarin to protect defense targets, or even Madurai for a small damage buff if you don't need anything else. Similarly for Eidolons, you simply don't need UW on everyone - so someone might opt to protect their frame from magnetic procs with Vazarin's dash, or alleviate energy issues with Zenurik to save on pizzas.

But I'll agree that it's just utility powercreep, and dumping even more utility on operators isn't going to make them more exciting. Their gameplay and mobility options are simply lacking compared to that of frames, while their utility is overwhelming. So improving the latter would only further pigeonhole them into a per need use basis, which is the opposite of making them more interesting. 

I've unlocked all waybounds except the last one from Unairu and last one from Vazarin. I only use Zenurik on a couple of my loadouts, but most people, by far, use Zenurik.

If that's the case, why not use DE's logic from Itzal's blink and just make it an inherent universal part of Void Dash so that it isn't a factor in your Path selection? It should still be much weaker either way.

Or, again, for the same clear demand for it, just make energy regeneration a permanent passive for Warframe upon unlocking their Operator (maybe 1.5 energy per second). Change Energizing Dash to instead be a 30% boost to efficiency for the duration (still limited by the efficiency cap of 75%). It would allow you to entirely replace Streamline in loadouts with Zenurik for more mod diversity. You'd be able to keep a steady flow of gameplay but still limit the endless ability spam. 

Or take a note from Harrow, and make players actually work for their energy, but at a better rate. Make Energizing Dash only give you a buff, that allows certain actions to restore a % of your base energy. Like gun kills restore 5%, melee kills restore 10%, headshots restore 15%, Operator kills restore 20%. Just something that rewards standard gameplay other than just spamming Void Dash and waiting out your timer.

There's a ton of options they could've taken that would've been better for the game than what we got.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I've unlocked all waybounds except the last one from Unairu and last one from Vazarin. I only use Zenurik on a couple of my loadouts, but most people, by far, use Zenurik.

If that's the case, why not use DE's logic from Itzal's blink and just make it an inherent universal part of Void Dash so that it isn't a factor in your Path selection? It should still be much weaker either way.

Or, again, for the same clear demand for it, just make energy regeneration a permanent passive for Warframe upon unlocking their Operator (maybe 1.5 energy per second). Change Energizing Dash to instead be a 30% boost to efficiency for the duration (still limited by the efficiency cap of 75%). It would allow you to entirely replace Streamline in loadouts with Zenurik for more mod diversity. You'd be able to keep a steady flow of gameplay but still limit the endless ability spam. 

Or take a note from Harrow, and make players actually work for their energy, but at a better rate. Make Energizing Dash only give you a buff, that allows certain actions to restore a % of your base energy. Like gun kills restore 5%, melee kills restore 10%, headshots restore 15%, Operator kills restore 20%. Just something that rewards standard gameplay other than just spamming Void Dash and waiting out your timer.

There's a ton of options they could've taken that would've been better for the game than what we got.

When I hear arguments about this or that being "mandatory," and people complaining about "90% of players do X," I don't see it as the fault of the players. They are just doing the most efficient thing to solve a given problem. It's a design flaw. Energy economy was never done well in this game and every attempt to "fix" it has been met with other forms of cheese to circumvent it. We saw a similar issue with Vacuum on Carrier having to be usable on every sentinel because it was so useful that it pushed out every other option. So what happens now is that most people will use Helios + Vacuum (or sometimes Shade) to the exclusion of all else. The mistake made was that Vacuum should have been removed as a mod and made a base part of gameplay--a natural mechanic. Only then could you have real options for companions. I could get a lot more into detail about this argument, but I honestly don't feel it's necessary. Even a cursory glance should reveal its self-evident nature. Lastly, worrying about what everyone else uses should be the last reason to omit a change that gives players more choice. Use what you enjoy! Again, I'm kind of surprised I have to spell it out (literally).

As far as "but power creep" as an argument, I frankly dgaf. This game has had a constant trend of power creep from the very beginning. It's what makes this game fun! "Balanced" games, or those that attempt it too strictly, grow boring very quickly (especially PvP games). Again, this is only a problem because there isn't a lot of high level, challenging content. That's why I made this thread as a possible idea to help alleviate that.

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8 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I don't see it as the fault of the players.

 

8 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

It's a design flaw

I agree. I literally blame DE for it in this same thread...

10 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

We saw a similar issue with Vacuum

And I agree...i used the example of the fact that DE is making Itzal's Blink universal to all Archwings, which should be taken into account with the two similar issues with vacuum and Zenurik.

 

20 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Again, I'm kind of surprised I have to spell it out (literally).

12 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

gives players more choice

And after all of that, you disregard your own logic pointing to the fact that people will literally just pick Energizing Dash to overcome the design flaw so you can pretend it's giving people more choice. There is no choice if the cause of the problem still exists. 

I just explained several alternatives would open more mod diversity and Focus Path diversity without having to take the energy economy design flaw in to consideration when choosing your path. It's funny how many times you made arrogant comments of feigned superiority when you failed to comprehend my post. 

But you do you. 

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38 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

And after all of that, you disregard your own logic pointing to the fact that people will literally just pick Energizing Dash to overcome the design flaw so you can pretend it's giving people more choice. There is no choice if the cause of the problem still exists. 

You missed the point in two ways.

1) If everyone is going to pick the Zen energy, then it gives them more choice by allowing them to use other schools.

2) The people who legit play Zen will have more choice too.

If you think there's a contradiction there, it's because you didn't read it correctly or think it through all the way.

Edit:

It's worth noting that some people don't use Zen at all, and their choices would be pretty flexible and diverse.

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Yeah... literally the only thing people would do would be to put Energising Dash into every other school, because most Warframe players are inherently lazy.

There would be a few players that made genuinely interesting builds, there would be a few that experimented and made absolutely amazing combinations.

The entire rest of the player base would just... want free energy. Even if they were using a frame that favours Drain functions, like Oberon or the Ability Weapon frames.

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I understand why people would assume that, but I think you guys underestimate the potential this has for forming new meta combinations for operators. Also, would you rather have people try the other schools too or only play Zen 100% of the time? Again, as with Carrier/Vacuum, if it ends up being that much of a problem, DE could just fix energy so people don't have to do that sort of thing. You know, that's always an option too--regardless of whether they implemented this idea or not.

Worrying about what people would pick is a bad argument against increasing player choice. This is what destroyed WoW with the removal of talent trees. They never recovered from that.

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Yeah, no. Univac was a big mistake on their part IMO. They took the easy way out and appeased the OCD crowd instead of actually going through other companion mods and making them viable. Same with blink, but at least they're nerfing the mechanic itself. We don't need even more homogenization of skills and game mechanics.

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It’s kind of funny and interesting seeing people argue the “requirement” of energy dash. That ability is a crutch + wheelchair + butler that does everything for you with people. It’s nice to have but people who say they need it, honestly do you? Are you so reliant on rapid firing all your abilities to get things done?

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1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

It’s kind of funny and interesting seeing people argue the “requirement” of energy dash. That ability is a crutch + wheelchair + butler that does everything for you with people. It’s nice to have but people who say they need it, honestly do you? Are you so reliant on rapid firing all your abilities to get things done?

Especially when energy pads are faster and more effective. Zen actually takes longer with the only benefit that it saves you from having to build more pads constantly.

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Regarding the energy issue, I suggested an energy regeneration system long ago, it was very simple. The problem with most things in warframe, is that the game oftenly sacrifices consistency for burst effects and that ends up bringing severe balance issues.

A fixed energy regeneration on warframes (along with the removal of BS like energy drops, energy generators, and Zenuriik dash) would solve that very easily. It's actually what I use on my tabletop RPG system and it works perfectly. 

But people are more interested in making several stupid posts about reworking warframes that are ALREADY planned for it. Like, what is the need...?Or posts whining about condition overload.

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On 2019-09-14 at 12:57 AM, FrostDragoon said:

I understand why people would assume that, but I think you guys underestimate the potential this has for forming new meta combinations for operators.

Alright, let's put this another way.

Operators have been categorically stated by DE to be deliberately limited so that they can, in no way, consistently surpass Warframes for the functions Warframes have. While Arcanes can allow Operators to achieve reasonable damage, or have rather nicely scaling effects, it is only ever as a compliment to Warframes, not as a replacement for it.

You might ask 'what has that got to do with allowing us to use different nodes in our trees', and the answer to that is the limitation that DE have placed on Operators.

The things that DE wants to ensure are shared between trees are all the basic upgrades. Better health, better regen, better base armour, better range, better charging speed and capacity, better distance and sprinting.

The things that DE does not want to be shared are all the specific upgrades, the ones themed to each tree, so that each stays distinct and has its own unique strengths and drawbacks. Admittedly, the drawback of a couple of the trees simply is that they aren't the other trees, but still.

Now, if you wanted to buff each tree to maybe include some aspects that aren't in them, maybe buff the Madurai tree so that you can cause Energy Orbs to drop from a certain number of kills or kills on enemies affected by your Operator Abilities... That kind of thing might work, you can include aspects of the other trees into the main one you're working with so that selecting just one doesn't feel like you're losing out.

But for actually swapping nodes around? Probably not. DE already created the Waybounds for that, and unless they have plans we aren't expecting in the Duviri Paradox? Then what we've got is what we'll get.

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20 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

My idea would not allow operators to surpass warframes. That's a bad argument, my dude.

No, it wouldn't, but it's that ideal that's holding back Operators. They're not going to change them to be better because they don't want them to be.

As I said, this is a limitation that's deliberately placed. Letting them be less limited isn't really on the radar.

Operator exclusive functions can be shared between the trees, anything that can possibly affect the Warframe is tree specific and you have to pick one over the other for your build.

That's the way DE explained it to us when they made the 2.0 changes, and then again when they made the 2.5 changes. So when it's such a clear definition, I don't think your idea is going to fly.

And that's on top of the part where you're greatly over-estimating the desires of the community and what they would do with this option.

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3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

You can try to speak for DE all day, but the point of this forum section is FEEDBACK, which includes suggestions. I am SUGGESTING that they consider this option to make operators more interesting and widen the player choice diversity by doing so.

Oh joy, yet another person that doesn't understand that the Forums are called Forums because they are, in fact, a Public Forum, where ideas are submitted and can be subjected to Peer Review.

Anything you say here can, and will, be judged on the merits of its content by everyone that reads it.

Further to that, if you can't convince us, why would you be able to convince the Devs?

Especially when I'm not 'speaking for' them, I'm reporting to you what has been said. By them. Speaking for themselves. And you may not be aware of it, so I'm passing it on. Meaning that your suggestion is unlikely to pass based on precedence, regardless of the merits, in this particular case. You're asking for a change that would allow the tree-specific Warframe buffs to be inter-changeable when the goal was to make the Operator buffs able to cross the boundaries and the Warframe buffs be limited to the trees to create a 'think outside the box' limitation that we have to work around. For example, picking Zenurik isn't always a good choice. Lots of Warframes have energy Drain functions that mean they would better benefit from having a Rage/Hunter Adrenaline equipped and then being healed very quickly while being granted temporary invulnerability with Vazarin, or would benefit from having bonus damage from Madurai. And that's an entirely deliberate system.

I would like to illustrate this with a fictional situation, made for comparison:

Imagine going to the Bugatti Forums and saying 'You know that super-car you made that broke the 300 Mph barrier? That would be a lot more interesting if you made it able to swap in different parts from other Bugatti cars you've made so we can make different versions.' and when somebody on their Forums says in return, 'You know that's not what Bugatti made this car for, right?' You then reply to them with 'Yeah, but you don't speak for Bugatti, it's a suggestion and I feel it would make that car more interesting.'

Now, I'm not comparing DE's rather janky Focus system to a finely crafted, record breaking Bugatti Chiron, no. There's plenty of ways to buff the Focus system, like methods that would allow for each tree to have access to things that allow it to be more stand-alone and provide comprehensive buffs to Warframes when used. Like putting energy regen on kills made with Madurai-boosted Weapons, or on Blinded enemies from Void Radiance, and putting something like Life Steal for all players on enemies hit by the fire ball. So yeah, there's ideas to be explored.

No, the specifics aren't in question there. What I'm pointing out is the pointless nature of the argument you just made. It wouldn't work there, it doesn't work here.

And for every person that falls back on the 'you don't speak for DE, this is my feedback' retort I chalk up another one on the 'lost cause' board.

To be clear.

I want the Focus system buffed, it's too un-focused (ironic), the abilities don't actually get better when you rank some of them up, because unlike common sense of getting 'better' at something, instead of using the same resources to get more result (or the same result for less resources, or even more result for less resources as some skill trees in games allow), it costs you more for those higher levels every time.

I do not believe that your suggestion would achieve a meaningful buff as it would be easily exploited for lazy game play instead of for active and rewarding game play. In a buffed Focus system, using skills actively and with good game sense would reward you with far better results. Meanwhile with yours players in day-to-day play would just pick their favourite school and slap in Energising Dash so they could get free Energy.

Results based on actually using your functions, not just allowing players to passively equip an extra function.

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3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Further to that, if you can't convince us, why would you be able to convince the Devs?

Stopped reading here. Don't care about the rest. You're trying to speak for the devs and the rest of the forums now. I don't care if I can convince you because you're just trying to be contrarian on the back of bad reasons. Speak for yourself, and yourself only, and then we can have a discussion.

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