Arbitrations Revisited Part 2

[youngjdef]

18 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

• The rotation cadence will be changed from “ABCCCCC...” to “AABBCCCCC...” So that the same level of time investment is encouraged.

Artificial time investment seems to be the goal lately, (what the heck was this tedious and drawn-out Nightwave "boss" mission?) 

Quote

With more frequent reward cycles we’ve decided to include a few new goodies, adding variety to all the Endo and sculptures you’ll be earning:

• Five new Aura mods[...]
• You can expect five new Warframe Arcanes as well![..]

It would be cool if you didn't dilute the drop tables a la Seeding Step, and put the extra stuff in the store.

 

tbh I'm playing FFXIV and MHW more & more, and Warframe less, so take my opinion for whatever its worth. I guess I'm past the "dopamine hit" phase of Warframe - maybe I'll be addicted again when there's story, lore, and new stuff to do with the frames we get.

Its just a bummer - raids in FF are a hell of a good time and I wish we had something similar in WF.

but after this last update bringing more bugs than it fixed, and not offering much in the way of content, I'm too disappointed to care much

Here's an idea, how about putting all these rewards into DISRUPTION - the mode that everyone loves to play but has zero useful rewards - instead of nerfing the Endo farm?

especially because all those Auras + Arcanes are nigh-useless for "endgame" (Arbitration-level) players and Corrosive Projection will still reign supreme.

Put the mid-game rewards with the mid-game mode.

[MakubexKido]

9 hours ago, Fast_Pickle said:

they are in the shop already it's called cautious shot

rolling guard, sharpshooter, vigorous swap
these bunch of craps thats clogging the reward list
id be a lot happier if it gives me vitus essence instead

[KIREEK]

The problem/great thing about drones is the drop ships, sometimes they will spawn where the drop ships are located, this means there is no enemy path for them to take so they get stuck.

This does decrease the difficulty, but under the changes, unless you can kill them, no new drones will appear, so the vitus essence chance essentially drops to 0% because you won't be killing drones from that point forward.

If you have a weapon that can reach them, good, but if not (like catchmoon), then how am i supposed to deal with them?

For those complaining about the loss of endo, Arbitrations were never the best source for endo, you could easily trade the rare mods or rare mods from other missions (like mercury survival) for several filled ayatan statues, so going into a mission, spending 10 minutes to get a single statue wasn't much, yet some believed this was a great way to get endo.

I know what i'm saying, have over 10M endo and while part of it is from arbitrations, it was mostly due to the mod drops, not the statues or endo rewards.

I also like the change to go from 400 vitus essence to 600, ty DE

As for the new mods........meh

[Jivy]

yeah but when will this go live is the question?

[Hanayama_San]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb [DE]Connor:

With more frequent reward cycles we’ve decided to include a few new goodies, adding variety to all the Endo and sculptures you’ll be earning:

• Five new Aura mods that follow a more Nightmare or Corrupted style! (Final numbers will be posted in Update notes.)
  • Verticality: + Aim Glide / - Damage Taken while Airborne 
  • Wicked Strikes: + Faster Charge Attack / + Combo Counter 
  • Loyal Herd: + Companion HP / + Companion Armor 
  • Bloodletter: -HP on kill for self / +HP on kill for Allies
  • Bladed Restraint: - Melee Combo on Self / + Melee Combo on allies 
• You can expect five new Warframe Arcanes as well!
  • On Rifle Kill: Melee damage increased by x for y seconds
  • On Melee Kill: Rifle damage increased by x for y seconds
  • On Pistol Headshot: x% ammo efficiency for y seconds
  • On Six Melee Kills: Heal companion by x
  • On Heavy Weapon Summon: Gain x armor for y seconds

none of these do anything usefull.

The Aura mods are completely useless to be honest here, these rewards feel like you just wanted to throw stuff in there but did not care what it was.

Same goes for the Arcanes, none of them are usefull in any way, shape or form.

I mean, just look at "On Six Melee Kills: Heal Companion by x" you do know that we have Pack Leader as a mod right ? 

Rewards like these make you feel out of touch with your own game, and that is sad indeed.

[(PSN)Quantaminum]

6 hours ago, DragonulRed said:

You guys should make clear what you are doing instead of telling us "Endo rewards will be reduced to roughly 75%" because now people are guessing 2 things is either you guys are reducing the drop chance for endo or you are reducing the amount of endo from the drop table, so from 1300 endo is 325 endo or from 36.5 drop chance now is 9.12%

75% of 1300 endo is 975.

75% of 36.5 drop chance is 27,38.

It will be reduced TO 75%, not BY 75%.

[Todd.Howard]

I appreciate the proposed changes to incentivize playing arbitrations that aren't just excavation or disruption. There are, however, some things I feel I should give feedback on, even if it's just a shortened reiteration of what most people are already saying.

10 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Endo rewards will be reduced to roughly 75% of what they once were

First and foremost, please clarify this. I think I understand what it's meant to convey, but it's got everyone's heads spinning.
75% of 2000 endo = 1500 endo. That would make it a possible 3k endo per 10 minutes in survival or defense, as opposed to 2k, given the increased frequency. Right?
I hope the same doesn't apply to excavation and disruption.

11 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

With more frequent reward cycles we’ve decided to include a few new goodies, adding variety to all the Endo and sculptures you’ll be earning:

Probably just beating a dead horse at this point, but all that is just diluting the reward table. Please don't include them as part of the game mode itself. There, I said it, now I can move on. An idea I'll throw out there is adding something in place of the Seeding Step Ephemera Blueprint if it's already been acquired once. It might take a bit of effort as far as coding goes, so a simpler solution would be to have the option to trade extra blueprints at the Arbiter Offerings for Vitus Essence or Endo.

The new rewards themselves I am deeply disappointed with. One or two of them I have mixed feelings about.
Verticality: + Aim Glide / - Damage Taken while Airborne Inadvertently messes with the flow of everyone's parkour / Another Aviator for Titania, Hildryn, and Zephyr, if anyone still uses her.
Wicked Strikes: + Faster Charge Attack / + Combo Counter Only useful for glaives, gunblades, Zenistar, and dare I say... the Caustacyst / Potentially very useful if the duration is high enough, might just spare you a mod slot on your melee weapon.
Loyal Herd: + Companion HP / + Companion Armor (Enhanced Vitality, Link Health, Pack Leader, Medi-Pet Kit, Repair Kit, Synth Deconstruct / Metal Fiber, Link Armor, Synth Fiber) While I agree that some companions have more difficulty surviving in higher level content, this doesn't seem necessary unless the values are high enough.
Bloodletter: -HP on kill for self / +HP on kill for Allies What? Why? This is just obscene. My first impression is that it will just help people AFK. Thinking on it further, it seems like the fastest way to die next to bringing a self damage weapon. We definitely need more information on this.
Bladed Restraint: - Melee Combo on Self / + Melee Combo on allies I don't see this working unless you're on a coordinated team, otherwise it just gives the rest of the squad + combo duration that their either already have a sufficient amount of, or don't need at all.

Here are some aura ideas so I'm not just griping without providing alternatives:
+ x% reload speed
Critical hits provide + x% ability efficiency
(That's all I can think of off the top of my head, might post more if they surface.)

On Rifle Kill: Melee damage increased by x for y seconds Only useful for low crit melee weapons, given the existence of Arcane Fury, but definitely interesting.
On Melee Kill: Rifle damage increased by x for y seconds This one has the potential to be more useful than Arcane Rage.
On Pistol Headshot: x% ammo efficiency for y seconds If I'm ever worried about ammo economy, I bring Carrier or Pax Charge.
On Six Melee Kills: Heal companion by x There is no reason to include this with the existence of Pack Leader or Synth Deconstruct
On Heavy Weapon Summon: Gain x armor for y seconds Useful for Profit Taker and Profit Taker only, y'know, unless you're Chroma. Outside of Profit Taker, heavy weapons just aren't worth using because they're outclassed by primaries, secondaries, and melee. When a pistol is more powerful than a minigun, there might be an issue.

Some alternatives:
On Critical Hit, 40% chance for +100% reload speed to shotguns for 8 seconds (basically Arcane Momentum for shotguns, but since Primed Tactical Pump probably won't be a thing anytime soon, I figure it's worth a go)
When damaged by slash or toxin status, x% chance to convert y% of shields to armor for z seconds
On dodge, x% chance for +y% projectile flight speed for z seconds
 

14 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Arbiter Drones will now have a small chance to drop Vitus Essence on kill.

14 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Kuva has been added to the Arbiter Offerings, for purchase with Vitus Essence.

Perfection. I just hope the Kuva offering is actually worth it.

Speaking of offerings, can we get another boost in damage reduction on Cautious Shot, or just have it remove self damage entirely? We already have to sacrifice a mod slot for it.

[IrenHawx]

I'm sorry but most of these changes are meh.

1) The time between rotations have been reduced but the endo rewards have also been reduced to about 75% meaning you need 2ish rotations to get the same amount of endo you get in 1 rotation current version of arbitrations. Yes, you get Ayatans but most ayatans those need amber stars. And there is no way to farm amber stars.i.e; nothing's changed. (Yes, I know about the amber star bp but just like every other resource bp in the game they are made to punish the player instead of giving a fair trade)

2) The new mods should be in the arbitration shop not in the drop table. Mods are a dead drop once you the first one. This should be the norm for all items that you only need single one of(ephemera,mods,sigils and the like). The arcanes are fine in the drop table since u need more than one to max out.

3) The current revive mechanic is horrible just like the arbitration drone. Either remove it or change it to something that DOESN'T BURDEN your other team members. (Maybe let them sacrifice their vitus essence they have earned in the mission to revive.)

4) Speaking of the arbitration drone, complete invulnerability is a S#&$ mechanic. I didn't spend hours and hours forma'ing my weapons and warframes so that a SINGLE enemy unit can negate those hours. (Either remove the enemy or do the random buff/debuff like disruption). 

[Lavantant]

Are there any plans to bring down corpus to the levels of the other 2 factions in terms of difficulty, like, say, removing nullifiers from that mode? I know a lot of people that see its corpus and just go "oh i cant play this one then"

[Slayer-.]

1 hour ago, IrenHawx said:

I'm sorry but most of these changes are meh.

1) The time between rotations have been reduced but the endo rewards have also been reduced to about 75% meaning you need 2ish rotations to get the same amount of endo you get in 1 rotation current version of arbitrations. Yes, you get Ayatans but most ayatans those need amber stars. And there is no way to farm amber stars.i.e; nothing's changed. (Yes, I know about the amber star bp but just like every other resource bp in the game they are made to punish the player instead of giving a fair trade)

2) The new mods should be in the arbitration shop not in the drop table. Mods are a dead drop once you the first one. This should be the norm for all items that you only need single one of(ephemera,mods,sigils and the like). The arcanes are fine in the drop table since u need more than one to max out.

3) The current revive mechanic is horrible just like the arbitration drone. Either remove it or change it to something that DOESN'T BURDEN your other team members. (Maybe let them sacrifice their vitus essence they have earned in the mission to revive.)

4) Speaking of the arbitration drone, complete invulnerability is a S#&$ mechanic. I didn't spend hours and hours forma'ing my weapons and warframes so that a SINGLE enemy unit can negate those hours. (Either remove the enemy or do the random buff/debuff like disruption). 

Nope no way in hell would I give my vitus essence to revive a teammate doing stupid things in the mission, though maybe make the revive tokens the drones drop able to be gathered by our vacuum mods instead of having to directly run over them or even walk over them to make sure you got it, also to help the blind teammates who can't seem to see them on the ground. 🙄

Will have to give the new modes a go, sounds interesting.

Edit: Miss read the post, the teammates the one who sacrifice their vitus essence, I'm tired long day. 😛

[Lavantant]

1 minute ago, Slayer-. said:

Nope no way in hell would I give my vitus essence to revive a teammate doing stupid things in the mission, though maybe make the revive tokens the drones drop able to be gathered by our vacuum mods instead of having to directly run over them or even walk over them to make sure you got it, also to help the blind teammates who can't seem to see them on the ground. 🙄

Will have to give the new modes a go, sounds interesting.

I think the real issue with the current mechanic is that if a teammate dies on the other side of the map because they're trying to grief, you just flat out lose max HP and shields while you play unless you gather enough points and lower your HP enough that you can revive them, and then find them and revive them.
 

[(XBOX)GrandSageDragon]

I dont want to see these aura mods under 10 capacity because only 2 give 9 and 1 sacrifices power strength 

[IceBen]

On Pistol Headshot: x% ammo efficiency for y seconds

Oh, make it stack up to 100% pretty please, Titania would be wicked with that. (If 100% is subtracted, not divided, ofc)

[Slayer-.]

13 minutes ago, Lavantant said:

I think the real issue with the current mechanic is that if a teammate dies on the other side of the map because they're trying to grief, you just flat out lose max HP and shields while you play unless you gather enough points and lower your HP enough that you can revive them, and then find them and revive them.
 

I only play in our very small Teamspeak dedicated CO-OP friends, so we don't have to put up with griefers, just teammates who go a bit far away and don't listen when you say get the hell back here, a health drop would make it a holy hell to stay alive to get to them. 😁

[Radasus]

16 hours ago, xXMadneXDXx said:

75% less endo? That can't be right. I understand that you want to make an equilibrium... but with a 75% less endo ,considering the ocassional 2000 endo , we would get like 500 endo and that's not worth the effort to be honest, at least for me. If I were to play Arbitration even with the long rotations It was for the endo which runs pretty fast when you like the Riven meta thing (7k ish) or just minmaxing your builds with a prime mod (40k ish). I agree with the endo reduction but not like this... 75% is a high downgrade I feel like a 50% is totally fair. This is just my opinion, please consider It DE.

It's reduced TO 75%, not BY 75%. So you're getting 1500 instead of 2000 or your projected 500. And with what's effectively double rewards, you're now looking at an average of 3000 for the same time spent, a net gain of 50%.

[GreyEnneract]

Need to keep the reward amounts the same, and the Vitus costs too.
It always seems like every time some good is being done you guys take 2 steps back.
Arbitration drones are also still immune to Exalteds, making some frames (Titania) literally unplayable in Arbitration.
Even Nullifiers aren't immune to Exalteds. Pablo commented on this oversight as well.
 

[Jarriaga]

This is a huge nerf to endo and statues if the other rewards are added to the drop tables instead of being acquired with Vitus.

I see no mention of the revive system being removed though, which it should. You are meant to bring your A game to Arbitrations, and yesterday my Adarza died because of the HP penalty when carrying those coins even if you pick them up by mistake.

If the problem was dead hosts leaving, why not invest on making dedicated servers just for Arbitration?

54 minutes ago, Radasus said:

It's reduced TO 75%, not BY 75%. So you're getting 1500 instead of 2000 or your projected 500. And with what's effectively double rewards, you're now looking at an average of 3000 for the same time spent, a net gain of 50%.

Not quite. Considering the drop tables may now be diluted with the new rewards, you will be getting a reward a lot faster, but the reward you want is now competing with many other new rewards in the same drop table (In turn decreasing your overall chances of obtaining it). In fact, 10 new rewards. 10 different rewards other than endo.

This issue will inevitably pop its head out once you farm one of each new reward and you then want statues or endo for general progress only to notice how it has been slowed down both in quantity and in frequency of acquisition unless those rewards are moved to the Vitus store.

[WarDragonSlayer]

Please remove the revive mechanism or remove the debuff on the revive mechanism 

[vFlitz]

2 hours ago, Eisenfresse said:

Wicked Strikes: + Faster Charge Attack / + Combo Counter Only useful for glaives, gunblades, Zenistar, and dare I say... the Caustacyst / Potentially very useful if the duration is high enough, might just spare you a mod slot on your melee weapon.

Sadly, not glaives nor gunblades. If this works like Amalgam Organ Shatter, it only reduces the duration of the charge before the attack, not its animation speed. Gunblades and Glaives in normal mode don't really have a windup charge before their charge attacks, so they're mostly if not entirely only affected by normal attack speed. Glaives in dual wield mode, although they do have a charge, seem to also be exempt from AOS' effect.

That's why in my feedback post I asked for this to be changed to literally any other melee stat. Charge attacks just aren't useful.  Wukong's 4 doesn't even have charge attacks at all, and since it was supposed to be a preview of melee 3.0, chances are they'll be phased out entirely at some point.

[Drischa]

I'm really excited for these changes. Arbitrations will feel like a worthwhile mode to play (outside of excavation).

People are freaking out a lot because of the reduced endo and extra drops, but I think that it will be okay. As the endo is only being reduced by 25% but we are getting double the rotation speed, we're actually ending up with 50% more endo than before. This is a bit powerful, so the extra mod drops will probably just balance this out. We'll have to see the percentage drop chances for all the mods and arcanes first, before  saying AA NO MORE ENDO

I do think the amount of mods/arcanes is a little much, considering the use cases for some of them - sacrificing an arcane slot to heal my pet for melee kills when we have a mod that can do that way better than we could ever need? If this was on normal kills I could see a use for it maybe, but as it stands it would be redundant on release, unless it heals sentinels, then it might be okay if you really really want to bring helios on a long mission or something. The rest of the mods we'll have to see the values for before we can know whether they'll be worthwhile or not.

There is a slight problem with arbitrations at the moment in that people are getting multiple seeded step drops which cannot be crafted or sold and it's effectively a waste of a rotation. Remember when ephemeras were discussed on devstream and they were going to be "earned" rewards? I think it would be better to move seeding step to the arbitrations store so that there aren't as many useless duplicates.

I saw another post saying for some of these items to be added to disruption, I think this is possibly a good idea, however I personally think that if disruption had a node that dropped axi relics there would be reason enough to play it.

Please ignore all the people that can't seem to count, these changes are definitely a positive and may only need a bit of thought put into the new items to try and prevent too many useless drops compared to endo.

[Greasy_Mullet]

Sorry but still not interested in this mode.  People dont play it because of perma death (revive system sucks big time), length of time (rotation C is still 20min in), gameplay is nothing new, and most of all its boring to death!  DE need to go back and totally redesign this mode if you want people playing it.

[Uhkretor]

8 hours ago, Vaeldious said:

Reduced TO 75%. So, if 1k endo was the original payout, youd get 750 instead, but get a chance at it twice as often. 

They really should reword that or put in an explainer, a lot of people seem to be misreading it.

It was pretty much self-explanatory. If someone misunderstood something that was crystal clear outright, its their fault (and theirs alone).

 

Calculating under assumptions is one way to stay ahead of possible variations, but only by seeing "reduced" and then getting your own conclusions from it (whatever they may be) isn't intelligent.

... Two words: "Reduced -> TO <- 75%."

Anyone assuming that its "Reduced by 75%." after multiple people pointing out that its "Reduced TO 75%." should re-read that specific line as many times as necessary...

 

"And If they still can't understand?" ... That's easy, go back to school. Because, apparently, this topic is too intelligent for them.

[Kratosthe1st]

Thanks a bunch, finally ill have something to play that is a bit challenging and rewarding, Thank you so much for this.

[Ulseth]

The current revival system is making people want to play Arbitrations in Solo exclusively, at least make it so that you only get one revive plus the revives from the arcane enhancements so that you can't just sit there and do nothing in public games for free rewards.

Please, listen to the feedback.

I'm sure this is great for people dying with their glass cannons, killing a couple of enemies before getting one-shot and then expecting to be revived over and over again infinitely by other players, but that's because the punishment of your death in the form of debuffs is directed at someone else.

If the goal here is just to make the game more accessible, then just remove the difficulty entirely and stop punishing players that know what they're doing for trying to play with other people online in public games. Believe it or not, some people want to play your multiplayer game without being punished for not switching to single player.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Drischa said:

I'm really excited for these changes. Arbitrations will feel like a worthwhile mode to play (outside of excavation).

People are freaking out a lot because of the reduced endo and extra drops, but I think that it will be okay. As the endo is only being reduced by 25% but we are getting double the rotation speed, we're actually ending up with 50% more endo than before. This is a bit powerful, so the extra mod drops will probably just balance this out. We'll have to see the percentage drop chances for all the mods and arcanes first, before  saying AA NO MORE ENDO

If those new auras and arcanes were rewarded in the store with Vitus I'd agree with you, but you now have 10 new rewards in the same drop table that you may get instead of Endo. Don't forget that.

Even if you are getting a reward at a faster rotation, Endo (And statues) is now competing against 10 new items on top of being a smaller amount. Statues are my main concern.