Wondering what kind of challenge and content we can have in warframe

[844448]

I wonder, what kind of challenge we can have in warframe with how strong we are and complaints around it

1. Massive HP

Not challenging at all, bring any frame with massive damage buff and you can one shot it

2. Invincibility phase

Not challenging and considered as annoying by many as the cop out mechanics to make the fight longer instead of challenging

3. Phases

Not really challenging and sometimes gunned down as bugged when people don't know how to progress through the phases (remember when people say ropalolyst is broken because they don't know they need to fire the laser?), sometimes annoying by some because you need to slog through (exploiter orb)

4. Weak spots

Not considered as challenging and annoying because you need to take aim at the spots, worse if the enemy has slight hint of agility like thumper

5. Rotating vulnerability

Considered as a bad model by numerous where I saw 3 chromas saying it's hard to deal with

6. Temporal status immunity

Not considered as challenging and instead become a source of crying thread where people quickly accuse it as permanently immune

7. Aggressive enemies

Considered as "broken" and should be nerfed (Remember when manic has finisher move if you're standing still? No more of that now)

8. Heavy damage

Considered as broken and they should be in line because "it's making new players turned off with the game"

9. Heavy armor

Not challenging and just a slash/viral/corrosive fest on your gears

10. Wrong step punishment

Used to be in the trials (law of retribution and jordas verdict) where you have to do things with no mistake or start over the phase. Was pretty toxic where there's quite an amount of toxicity when someone made a mistake and caused the whole team downed or need to restart

Any kind of challenge that isn't considered as cop out mechanics or annoying that I missed? Put it here

[Aldain]

I guess the challenge only comes before you hit the point where these become trivial (or in the case of sandbag enemies and one-shot-kills just annoying).

Personally I feel that the lack of challenge comes from the current design problems in Warframe, mostly the raw damage output we can reach and the desperate countermeasures that DE has had to cobble together to keep up with it (and even that doesn't work most of the time).

I'd honestly focus on dialing back the damage output players have and making enemies that need more technique to deal with in the vein of the Nox and Bursa.

I'd also recombobulate the stats of enemies to better fit those changes so that the reduced output from players doesn't feel like a direct nerf.

So basically Damage 3.0 and Enemies 2.0 or something like that.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

I’ve given up on stuff like this man. The majority of the community dosent want to hear about this on the fourms so Let’s just let em have it

[SirTobe]

It's all pointless as long as DE are swinging that nerf-hammer around like the Wolf on Hydron. 

The best challenges in WF are whatever shortlived "bugs" DE says accidentally made something harder than it should.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

We are each different.  We each play games for different reasons.  If there is absolutely nothing left you want to do in warframe time to leave it.

Based on your list poster seems like there is literally nothing de could change to satisfy you.

For me personally i am too dammed old and tired.  I dont play video games for challenge or ego.  Its stress relief and hopefully a good story I'm after.

Pop in crack skulls at my leisure.

Edited September 13, 2019 by (PS4)Kakurine2

[844448]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

We are each different.  We each play games for different reasons.  If there is absolutely nothing left you want to do in warframe time to leave it.

Based on your list poster seems like there is literally nothing de could change to satisfy you.

For me personally i am too dammed old and tired.  I dont play video games for challenge or ego.  Its stress relief and hopefully a good story I'm after.

Pop in crack skulls at my leisure.

Sometimes I also wonder about it because people want "challenge" and complain at every single thing DE tried to give them challenge when those who want challenge still getting downed left and right at level 100

It wasn't mine though, these are the comments taken from forums and wiki and piled to one

[TARINunit9]

58 minutes ago, 844448 said:

I wonder, what kind of challenge we can have in warframe with how strong we are and complaints around it

Challenge (specifically, fair challenge) is fundamentally about testing player skill. There are different ways to do this, including reflexes, strategy, and memorization.

Warframe, by and large, doesn't challenge player skill at ALL. It tests player preparedness. If you have the mods to deal enough damage, you will win. If you do not, you CANNOT win. As simple at that. Enemies will spawn too quickly, deal too much damage to you, and tank too much punishment from you

This is not a bad thing in and of itself. But it does mean we operate in a game where the devs keep trying to make these halfway "challenges" such as, as you yourself pointed out,

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

Massive HP Invincibility phase Phases Temporal status immunity Heavy armor

Which cannot truly defeat player preparedness, it just requires a new level of preparedness

In addition the devs might be in too far to change it now. They might not be able to make a skill/preparedness hybrid system without completely rebuilding the entire game from scratch

[844448]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Challenge (specifically, fair challenge) is fundamentally about testing player skill. There are different ways to do this, including reflexes, strategy, and memorization.

Warframe, by and large, doesn't challenge player skill at ALL. It tests player preparedness. If you have the mods to deal enough damage, you will win. If you do not, you CANNOT win. As simple at that. Enemies will spawn too quickly, deal too much damage to you, and tank too much punishment from you

This is not a bad thing in and of itself. But it does mean we operate in a game where the devs keep trying to make these halfway "challenges" such as, as you yourself pointed out,

Which cannot truly defeat player preparedness, it just requires a new level of preparedness

In addition the devs might be in too far to change it now. They might not be able to make a skill/preparedness hybrid system without completely rebuilding the entire game from scratch

We have those that needs some reflexes like thumper, the reception wasn't that good. Memorisation like lua spy got slowed down because it's too hard. Strategy is out of the window when people don't care and want to be gung ho with their power. Remember profit taker? Apparently the shielding is bad by many when you can just prepare which elements you want to bring (preparation is strategy, isn't it?)

When was the last time people completely happy with something that needs skills? Jupiter rework gets some negativity especially on the spy vault so I'm sort of skeptical if something that tests your reflex, memorisation or strategy will be accepted well

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

(preparation is strategy, isn't it?)

Preparation is a component of strategy. In RTS for instance it's just as much about how you prepare as how you fight. My point was, Warframe only has the preparing

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

We have those that needs some reflexes like thumper, the reception wasn't that good. Memorisation like lua spy got slowed down because it's too hard. Strategy is out of the window when people don't care and want to be gung ho with their power. 

When was the last time people completely happy with something that needs skills? Jupiter rework gets some negativity especially on the spy vault so I'm sort of skeptical if something that tests your reflex, memorisation or strategy will be accepted well

I mean I can't disagree that the vocal minority who just want to unironically grow infinitely stronger forever until the day the servers shut down and will never accept a single nerf for any reason totally just whine every single time something gets added to the game and they can't instantly delete it from existence. That does happen

Edited September 13, 2019 by TARINunit9

[Zekkii]

I think the problem is that you're looking for a singular solution to a complex problem.  In my eyes, enemies need more health, more damage, cc resistance (not immunity).  This is, for the most part, what happens when enemies level up.  Giving us access to higher level content and making it rewarding to play is a good start.  Arbitrations are what I consider the best example of this.

Next we'd need certain warframe/mod mechanics toned down a little, and sadly I don't see this happening on as wide of a scale as I'd hope for.  DE seems incredibly afraid of backwards balancing and ultimately it leads to broken mechanics staying in the game forever.

[Ikyr0]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

We are each different.  We each play games for different reasons.  If there is absolutely nothing left you want to do in warframe time to leave it.

Based on your list poster seems like there is literally nothing de could change to satisfy you.

For me personally i am too dammed old and tired.  I dont play video games for challenge or ego.  Its stress relief and hopefully a good story I'm after.

your first sentence is such a load of contradictory BS. "we're all different and play for different reasons. im different and better tho, so leave." 🤣

ok, you're old and tired, but WF wasn't designed just for you. there's already so much content in this game for casuals, yet none for those who want to push their frames a little bit and feel rewarded for it. for some of us, doing challenging content is relaxing. while I can appreciate your state of mind/life, being old and tired doesn't make you better or more important than OP. you're just one demographic for DE.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Ikyr0

[RX-3DR]

2 hours ago, Zekkii said:

I think the problem is that you're looking for a singular solution to a complex problem.  In my eyes, enemies need more health, more damage, cc resistance (not immunity).  This is, for the most part, what happens when enemies level up.  Giving us access to higher level content and making it rewarding to play is a good start.  Arbitrations are what I consider the best example of this.

Problem is when any one mechanic is put into play, some people reflexively kick back against it and then immediately go on about how difficulty needs to be tackled in a different way(namely, "better AI" which is a throwaway answer that doesn't mean anything). A good example of this are when Demolition got released. Some people were mad about the Demolyst being able to dispel CC effects and others were mad that Nullifiers had an aggressive variant that would actively move their bubbles to you.

Edited September 13, 2019 by RX-3DR

[Heckzu]

4 hours ago, 844448 said:

Any kind of challenge that isn't considered as cop out mechanics or annoying that I missed?

Enemy mobility.

But considering that the majority of the community can't aim for S#&$ and throws a complete tantrum when having to face enemies that are just as fast as they are, we can't have that.

[(PSN)Dishinshoryuken]

Truth be told-

We are being behind so many mods and Forma and Catalysts/Reactors, that if we were to face the game straight up, we would get our arses handed to us because we do not know how to play unless we use cheese. We put on all this stuff and then say we are invincible. Tell us to take it off and play the same game and we get cries of "I didn't get all those to take it off".

I ain't gonna sit here and say I don't have some gear with this stuff on....but on the other side,iseethegame as challenging still since I ain't trying to be a god walking. I keep the game going for me and find ways to explore it daily. I have Frames that don't have Reactors on where I use them to challenge MYSELF doing things my other frames walk through. I don't have Adaption since I want to be a Warframe and not a wanna be Sentients walking around adapting from a mod. Our movements and knowledge should be our adaption.

But I don't know anything since I have not done the whole star chart or fought the profit taker or used an Archgun on land yet....but dang it all, I still have fun in the game and know there is no content drought

 

[epsilonUZ]

I was thinking maybe, maybe some mode like PUBG might work ? just use the open world as a map?

[844448]

1 hour ago, primeUZ said:

I was thinking maybe, maybe some mode like PUBG might work ? just use the open world as a map?

PvP gets a hard no from people so I doubt pubg model will work especially when you're moving like a rocket everywhere

[YazMatazO]

6 hours ago, 844448 said:

...

The kind that would make you sweat in ten minutes playing the game. Part of the reason why no body will go that deep in WF ''challenge.''

[trst]

Every single aspect on that list can be (and is) a challenge given the proper context and scenario.

The reason a lot of it isn't considered a challenge here is due to the mounting powercreep issues, players seeking the paths of least resistance, and the games utter lack of even encouraging cooperative play.

Even something that is considered artificial like bullet sponge enemies is a challenge when the intended response to them is employing builds/classes made to deal with them or requiring cooperative focus on the target. But instead we have builds that turn said enemies into wet paper, frames and weapons that can eliminate them with the most casual half completed builds, and the issue of people being incentivized to play solo because they either don't need others or can't do anything because of others.

[vanaukas]

I dont understsnd why people talk like if you hate everything you've said because I literally understsnd it as a lot of community complaints compiled in one post, not you just asking for something new becsuse you are bored or tired. Maybe im wrong too

[844448]

12 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

I dont understsnd why people talk like if you hate everything you've said because I literally understsnd it as a lot of community complaints compiled in one post, not you just asking for something new becsuse you are bored or tired. Maybe im wrong too

I would like to know if someone who can play on earth millions of times for no reason can be tired or bored because apparently I'm still walking on earth when there's no nightmare, kuva siphon or void fissures whatsoever

[844448]

32 minutes ago, YazMatazO said:

The kind that would make you sweat in ten minutes playing the game. Part of the reason why no body will go that deep in WF ''challenge.''

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb 844448:

I wonder, what kind of challenge we can have in warframe with how strong we are and complaints around it

1. Massive HP

2. Invincibility phase

3. Phases

4. Weak spots

5. Rotating vulnerability

6. Temporal status immunity

7. Aggressive enemies

8. Heavy damage

9. Heavy armor

10. Wrong step punishment

 

if you want a challange: unequip health, shield and armour mods. that would be a challenge 😉 

Edited September 13, 2019 by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
typo

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

Truth be told-

We are being behind so many mods and Forma and Catalysts/Reactors, that if we were to face the game straight up, we would get our arses handed to us because we do not know how to play unless we use cheese. We put on all this stuff and then say we are invincible. Tell us to take it off and play the same game and we get cries of "I didn't get all those to take it off".

I ain't gonna sit here and say I don't have some gear with this stuff on....but on the other side,iseethegame as challenging still since I ain't trying to be a god walking. I keep the game going for me and find ways to explore it daily. I have Frames that don't have Reactors on where I use them to challenge MYSELF doing things my other frames walk through. I don't have Adaption since I want to be a Warframe and not a wanna be Sentients walking around adapting from a mod. Our movements and knowledge should be our adaption.

But I don't know anything since I have not done the whole star chart or fought the profit taker or used an Archgun on land yet....but dang it all, I still have fun in the game and know there is no content drought

 

I can beat everything short of an eidolon and orb with my daikyu and ash prime (tested and I will back it up on request) you don’t need cheese in wf it’s just easy 

Edited September 13, 2019 by (PS4)sweatshawp

[Chappie]

2 hours ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

if you want a challange: unequip health, shield and armour mods. that would be a challenge 😉 

That isn't the challenge they want though.  It is very rare when people say they want a challenge that it isn't laced with wanting to have some sort of indication they are better than somebody else.   

For example....how many people could do 10 captures in the void in sub 60 seconds each?  That does take both preparation and skill...but people don't want to do it because they can't easily hold that accomplishment up in front of others and say "look at me".  

Edited September 13, 2019 by Chappie1975

[OneYenShort]

9 hours ago, 844448 said:

I wonder, what kind of challenge we can have in warframe with how strong we are and complaints around it

Nice technical list.  But you utterly forgot the flipside of it.  How does a new "challenge" make DE monies?  Seriously.

1. Does this provide a new method that will attract current players, if so, by what percentage of active players?

2. How much is it going to cost in man hours to prototype, graphically create, peer review, quality assure, and play test? (Note, you have PC and all the consoles this has to be considered for.)

3. Will it attract new players? If so by what estimated percentage point and what is the bases for the number?

4. Is this new challenge able to be done equally well on PC and the various consoles now supported?

5. Any new means or ideas on how to promote it? (Not one of DEs strong suits here and could be ignored for DE given their m.o.)

6. Are there any new items necessary and can any be sold to players for plat? (include expected percentage of plat from rush jobs if applicable.)

 

etc.