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844448

Wondering what kind of challenge and content we can have in warframe

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9 hours ago, 844448 said:

Good thing ordis takes his time in the foundry to make your weapons maintenance free instead of going instantly with chance to break

Yeah it is, if Ordis was faster at building weapons I'd probably spend even more time in Warframe instead of playing other games while I wait out the clock. 

Durability's still a deal breaker tho.

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The whole "content drought" is, as I see it, is down to a bit of a direction change by DE. Previously new content was a continual flow of new weapons and frames with the odd new game mode of quest thrown in. Small amounts but frequent. I've heard (and I don't have a source so may be wrong) that DE want MR30 to be the final MR level so constantly throwing MR fodder at us would defeat that pretty quickly. Instead they are now concentrating on open worlds and things like Railjack which takes longer to produce so we get bigger content drops but less frequently and the whole "drought" is just a word the players are throwing about because it now takes longer between those content drops where they feel they have nothing new to do.

Endgame in Warframe is already here, Fashionframe! No, seriously though, I doubt we will ever have "endgame" because no matter what content DE throw at us we will almost instantly find ways of cheesing it. It doesn't matter how hard they make the content or how complex the vets will crush it almost instantly. ESO was billed as DE wanting us to have a game mode even they couldn't beat. Admittedly it has no end as far as I know so you are always going to lose but the Saryn's out there have proven that even this content isn't "hard". I remember a design council challenge not long ago which involved a very high level mob which was considered "hard" and was facerolled by Valkyr's.

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Hey, Shalath, thanks for the info. Yeah, I get the feeling of everything you just said. Personally, the longer wait doesn't bother me as I am far from a vet as of now so I'm still working. But, as long as the content they release is quality then hell, I'll eat it up. I definitely understand the super advance/geared players cheesing everything.

Though, I still dig the story/lore addition. I suppose we'll see what happens with The New War.

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On 2019-09-25 at 9:00 AM, AuroraSonicBoom said:

I assume you were trying to put together a worst possible scenario for the game, I'll help.

* Infinite grind - Some games, like Guild Wars 2, have a dungeon system in place that lets you into it forever, sort of like ESO, but in addition they also have certain gear items with 'Agony resistance', a skill employed by an enemy type similar to the Sentients, that becomes stronger the deeper you manage to go.

Absolutely disgusting, especially for a dev who had made it part of their manifesto for years that they'd keep the typical MMO like endgame treadmill out of the game.

I don't know what Guild Wars 2 you're playing, but it has no game mode that "lets you into it forever". The dungeons you speak of cap out at 100, and maximum amount of agony resistance necessary is 150. That's a very finite grind.

Also agony resistance is specifically designed in such a way to allow you to get higher AR without getting a whole new set of gear. And since you're guaranteed to get AR infusions every time you run the content that requires them, it's more akin to an experience system, rather than a gear treadmill. It really is just a replacement for leveling-up for people who reached max level. It exists only to prevent you from playing on highest difficulty right away. It also allows you to turn your "progress" into gold, if you want to.

Makes me wonder how did you get far enough to know that this is a mechanic while completely misunderstanding how it works.

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

they'd keep the typical MMO like endgame treadmill out of the game

If you crafted the best items back in 2013, they're still the best items in 2019. Disgusting, I know.

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Apparently all the vets hate the relic system and want to go back to using keys to unlock Orokin towers in the void. 

I do like the idea that certain primes could be farmed from the game and not just relics.

But I think this would upset the status quo too much for a lot of players who love the trading and accumulation of platinum. 

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13 minutes ago, (NSW)Badger said:

Apparently all the vets hate the relic system and want to go back to using keys to unlock Orokin towers in the void. 

I do like the idea that certain primes could be farmed from the game and not just relics.

But I think this would upset the status quo too much for a lot of players who love the trading and accumulation of platinum. 

The only bummer about the relics system was that it really disincentivized playing the void missions. There just isn't a great general reward for players at this point. Relics are okay, but players like me don't give them a second thought and just pick randomly whenever doing relic missions because they already own everything.

Some of the more rate loot should be added to planetary rotations so that players aren't pigeonholed into specific content to unlock stuff. Like the open world loot. Have a loot crate reward item that comes across all tiers of play, giving small quantities of plains or vallis loot. Or low chance prime rewards scattered across the solar system that could incentivizr general play while not making relics pointless (make the drop chances low)

Or add system wide bounties for fortuna and cetus.

 

But to be honest I don't really mind the way things currently stand. There is a lot of content in warframe and it isn't really fair to expect new stuff to do when you literally own every weapon and frame, have put at least 1 forma into everything, have cleared all nodes, have hundreds of relics in backlog etc.

Players like this have played the game to death. 

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Problem is.....no matter how sustainable it is for certain groups, there's another that will get bored and just quit. 

There isn't a single bit of content since 2013 that has kept me interested long enough to play for more than a month at a time. 

I just find the content so bloody boring. Rep grinds and idiotic rare materials locked behind rep. Etc. It's tedious and I lose interest long before I get anything cool.

I will forever be behind the curve because I refuse to jump through boring content hoops. It's easier to quit and come back later when that content Is obsolete or forgotten.

There's too many other games to play to suffer through the boring, uninspired content fodder they keep coming up with.

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It all boils down to this in my opinion: Grind or Drought.

To make an update take a while to "complete", it requires more grind. Either RNG (Ephemera farming) or long progression (how Plains of Eidolon released initially). A vocal portion of players through Reddit, the Forums and other means have called out every instance of things being "too grindy". To please players, DE try to reduce grind in systems that lack long progression, and that ends up lowering the amount of time invested to finish a portion of the game. There is no way DE can escape this "content drought" thrown all over Youtube and social media outlets because people want content while simultaneously wanting shallow and non-grindy content in a game designed around your loot and equipment. 

A good example of this is the Arbitration changes. They added more grind to said system through Arcane farming and more. On the first 5 seconds of the update, there was already a comment with well over 100 votes asking for all the items to be added to the Vitus Essence shop.

Me? I like grind. It's my "something to do". I feel that when content comes out and there is no grind associated with it, it doesn't last. Prime Access is farmed so quickly since the Relic system was added. Fortuna and Plains of Eidolon are quite shallow. Focus hasn't been touched majorly in years aside from making it easier to farm Focus Affinity. The list goes on and I don't blame DE. They can't please everyone at once.

Nightwave is a good example of grind. While it's implementation needs work, it is a daily to do and it does reward the player with exclusive mods/skins/etc.

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En 24/9/2019 a las 4:41, 844448 dijo:

Is there any kind of sustainable content from other games you see that doesn't rely on any of these factors? Put it here

In any PVP game...

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18 hours ago, Ceanmunt said:

That's the thing, giving us end game gives us NO reason to spend money.

So true, but it might give those as you referred to "low-mid people" a goal to spend their money on, to be able to roll with those End game people in the foreseeable future

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On 2019-09-24 at 11:44 AM, BlackVortex said:

To me, true endgame content is meant for people who are completely done with all "normal" content and have the best(or close to) gear available and know all the ins and outs of the game and have accumulated enough skill to be able to clear the game solo and go on for a long time(+1 hour) in endurance modes.

That being said, the amount of people in Warframe that are in that stage of the game is probably less than 10% of all players. Meaning if we had true endgame, either over 90% of the players would be unable to complete said content or unable to play it at all(depending on the requirements to enter).
But Warframe being more of a co-op game, people are able to get carried into missions. I have noticed that in the revisited Arbitrations, a lot of undergeared people enter and i.e. in modes like Disruption fail to kill any of the Demolysts in time, meaning they must be carried or have little to no contribution to the advancement of the mission.

Before the changes made to Arbitrations, there was one game mode(Excavation), which if you had the gear and people to run it (that top 10% of players) you would be able to get triple the rewards than you could get in other game modes. This did mean that you had 3 players who had to solo an Excavator and keep it alive (its just like Defense but you are basically alone for most of the time which makes it effectively harder than Defense) and usually a Frost to run up ahead to spawn the globes. This required gear, skill and some team coordination.

I myself used to dodge any Excavation mission because of it's difficulty/reward ratio being so much worse than any other game mode. Except in Arbitration. So this was the only time I actually ever enjoyed playing Arbitration, because I was being rewarded for my effort(best Vitus Essence farming mission).

With the recent changes, Excavation Arbitration is now arguably the least rewarding game mode in Arbitration. As predicted, the spawn timers did not get shortened, just the dig timers, which makes this a lot easier and if you were used to the old dig timers, a snooze fest.

In the early days PVP could have been considered end game content, but since they removed the normal mods from that mode, introduced pvp specific mods and balanced the whole pvp solely around PVP, it stopped being endgame and changed into just another game mode.

The best endgame content we actually had were the Raids. LoR, NM and JV were removed from the game though, because not enough players were able to participate in this game mode and there was just a small group of players benefiting from this and making a lot of money by selling those arcanes.
This is to me what true endgame content is, content that only a small group of players are able to complete because it requires skill, knowledge, gear and team coordination. This is clearly not for the casual players.

Considering that DE has introduced several game modes that had the potential to be endgame, but then changed it so much that anyone could enter/complete it or removed it entirely from the game, means that it is not in their plans to have actual endgame content in the game.

For now, whenever I want some "endgame" gameplay, I just do some solo Profit-Taker runs which are actually still kind of a challenge at times when you try to beat your own time.


EDIT for TLDNR:
Endgame content is aimed towards the top 5-10% of the players.
DE probably doesn't want to create content that only 5-10% of the players are able to play, hence we don't have true endgame content.

I'd say that number is easily 30% rather than 5 or 10.

Anyone who has done all the quests, rolled some rivens, thrown in 2+ forma in their favorite weapons and frames and can run all mission types and sorties comfortably(that include spy fellas) will expect to have some kind of an end game content, because the challenge pretty much ends there.

Also even if you make end game content for the top 10% players, that'll encourage the remaining players to reach to that level so that they can be a part of it, meaning they'll put more hours and effort into the game. So stop making it sound like having end game content in a game like this would only please a small minority. It is a win win situation for everyone.

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On 2019-09-24 at 3:30 AM, Gabbynaru said:

Good content you wanna play and replay of your own volition is the best, most replayable and sustainable content. Which the game has plenty of, but after thousands of hours, even that will become dull. We're all just way too spoiled by how good and engaging this game is, aren't we?

Exactly. Your favorite food, eaten every day eventually wears on us...until we step away for awhile. I can never understand the vets who say "stop telling us to take a break". The game has done its job: entertain you for a VERY LONG TIME. Step away, let DE add more stuff, then come back refreshed. Bashing and biting the feeding hand does nothing but give that hand doubts about still trying to feed you.

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6 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

I'd say that number is easily 30% rather than 5 or 10.

Anyone who has done all the quests, rolled some rivens, thrown in 2+ forma in their favorite weapons and frames and can run all mission types and sorties comfortably(that include spy fellas) will expect to have some kind of an end game content, because the challenge pretty much ends there.

Also even if you make end game content for the top 10% players, that'll encourage the remaining players to reach to that level so that they can be a part of it, meaning they'll put more hours and effort into the game. So stop making it sound like having end game content in a game like this would only please a small minority. It is a win win situation for everyone.

explain that to DE please 🙂

also you kind of said exactly the same thing I did in the post above that

28 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

So true, but it might give those as you referred to "low-mid people" a goal to spend their money on, to be able to roll with those End game people in the foreseeable future

 

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Raids were taken out because 1% of the playerbase played them and the maintenance cost on them was quite high as they kept breaking each major update so they would have to devote manpower to fix them for the 1% of people who played them.  Tell me, would you run a business to cater to the 1% over the 99% of players who didn't even really realize raids were a thing because they were hidden quite well and DE did not mention them basically anywhere, you would have to dig around in the market to find the blueprints for JV, LoR, and NM LoR.  Yeah I miss the raids personally because I won a few energizes there when they were worth 500p a pop on xbox, now I can't sell singles for 150p when it's arguably the best piece of gear in the game.  

They don't make endgame because people complain whenever they make something difficult.  The closest thing we have to endgame are leaderboard events like operation: hostile mergers where to get first place on the leaderboards you really do need to know your stuff and have a long day set aside to squad up with 3 friends who also know the game quite well to grind it out for however long.  

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29 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Raids were taken out because 1% of the playerbase played them and the maintenance cost on them was quite high as they kept breaking each major update so they would have to devote manpower to fix them for the 1% of people who played them.  Tell me, would you run a business to cater to the 1% over the 99% of players who didn't even really realize raids were a thing because they were hidden quite well and DE did not mention them basically anywhere, you would have to dig around in the market to find the blueprints for JV, LoR, and NM LoR.  Yeah I miss the raids personally because I won a few energizes there when they were worth 500p a pop on xbox, now I can't sell singles for 150p when it's arguably the best piece of gear in the game.  

They don't make endgame because people complain whenever they make something difficult.  The closest thing we have to endgame are leaderboard events like operation: hostile mergers where to get first place on the leaderboards you really do need to know your stuff and have a long day set aside to squad up with 3 friends who also know the game quite well to grind it out for however long.  

Against raids were broken for years. Instead of applying hotfixes to raids they should’ve set time aside tojyst permanently fix it after the first few incidents. ( would’ve cost way less time and manpower then what they were doing) but I understand what your saying 

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What players are missing is that WARFRAME IS THE SUSTAINABLE CONTENT. It's the whole kit and baby carriage that keeps most players involved.

For instance, people like Star Wars. Some people watch the movies. Some watch the movies and play the games. Then some watch the movies, play the games, do the cosplay, talk with others about theories and what ifs, etc.

The same is said for Warframe. Some people got into it cuz they were bored and saw a friend play it. They are not deep into it but they play here and there. Then there are some who are fully into the storyline as well as being able to colustomize their Frames to fit into this unraveling lore. Some want to get away from pay $120 to EA for the same game each year, while others have nothing but time on their hands since they were in an accident and bedridden.

We all jump into the game for different reasons and we lose track of that because we have this mentality that society pushes on us that we want more now. So we start seeing the faults of the game instead of remembering it is a game that has expanded to be covered by Videos, songs, players Twitching and drawing and cosplaying and molding weapons in real life. We keep pushing buttons and killing things that are doing their best to engage the players but the players don't care about what they kill as long as they feel powerful doing it. We lose track of the way each enemy took us down when we started and only think "this is my gun with riven that blows away everything in front of it".

The grind is relevant because you want something ASAP. And with 24 hours a day for each of us, it feels like it is a blockade sometimes. It's not there as a punishment unless we turn it into one. New Prime dropped? Gotta get it as fast as can be during the first day to..... what? Sell it? Max it out and Forma it 8 times? Keep it for when it's vaulted? That is on us. DE never tells the players what to do with the game besides play it. But we burn ourselves out trying to get it all NOW instead of doing whatever it is that keeps us wanting to come back

Step away if the full functionality of WARFRAME is not fun for you on ANY level. Come back when the next thing hits. The game is sustainable content as it has been here for a few years as the same journey. It has not changed into something unknown such as other games do to be edgy or different from what they were that attracted you.

 

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I think the fundamental problem at hand is that we're all racking our brains on how to make the game generate infinite or near-infinite content without any further developer input, yet are failing to realize that this is impossible if the payoff for that content is some extrinsic reward. Grind and RNG only serve to pad out content and delay the moment where we receive anything useful, and durability systems in practice never make content repeatable, because players simply do not enjoy having to constantly work just so that they can remain at the same power level, and tend to either complain vocally or disengage with the game when this happens (this is one of the reasons why the Echoes of Umbra consumable was largely rejected). Thus, what ends up happening is just the developer stalling us with grind until the next batch of content or rewards comes out, which isn't ideal because it puts the devs under constant pressure to release at rapid intervals (and we start to bring up "content drought" when that doesn't happen), which itself tends to lead to lower-quality content, like the many rushed frames and poorly implemented weapons we've received in recent times. If we're going to implement sustainable content in the game, it's going to need a different payoff, and I think that's going to have to be an impact on the in-game world, rather than some treasure for us to collect.

Once upon a time, there was this massively multiplayer sci-fi game by the name of Firefall: through severe amounts of corporate mismanagement, the game died, but for a time it had what I think may possibly have been the most sustainable game loop out of any MMO, because it was staked upon the in-game world. In the in-game world of Firefall, humanity (and therefore the players) is besieged at all times by this all-encompassing destructive storm: normally, it's kept at bay through certain structures, but the storm continually sends in various challenges such as tornadoes, giant beasts, and incursions of powerful, alien soldiers. If these challenges are not met, our structures are captured, and the storm advances, repeating the process until the central game hub is under attack. The only way for players to repel the storm is to answer those challenges, and also participate in difficult missions to retake captured areas and push it back. During the time this was implemented, there was also very little power difference in gear, such that players of any level could join in, even though the activity was also considered engaging enough to be deemed end-game.

So, what is the moral of that story? Well, for one, it's possible to make self-sustaining content by creating in-game stakes, having our missions affect them, and introducing constant challenges that also target them. This process does not inherently require giving the player a reward by the end of it, because the player will already be caring about those in-game stakes, especially if both success and failure have a lasting impact. Similarly, that kind of content can sustainably engage players of all levels, without needing to restrict it behind a gear or time wall to make it count as "endgame", especially since the more time players spend, the more likely they are to care about the in-game world anyway.

While there are a near-infinity of ways this could probably translate to Warframe, I think we're getting a lot more components to work with through Empyrean: not only does the update promise to give us a more connected and immersive in-game world, it also introduces Kuva Liches, persistent enemies with a personal connection to the player. We all know the power of the Nemesis system in Shadows of Mordor, and including it here means we may end up having a constant supply of challenges to keep us busy. To take this further, we should probably start associating our missions with similarly persistent foes, so that instead of just doing random stuff for rewards, we're actively thwarting a villain's scheme, with there being a cause and effect to our play, win or lose.

Currently, I think one of our biggest problems is that most of the content we run is completely disconnected from the rest of the world, because we're running missions with no cause or consequence for the pure sake of some extrinsic reward: while this is a decent gameplay loop on its own, it is ultimately not a sustainable one, and at worst it causes us to dissociate with the Origin System and the Tenno cause we're supposedly fighting for. It may have been okay at a time when Warframe was a much smaller game, but now there's so much going on that there is really no reason not to connect the game's different pieces together. The fact that we haven't I think is also a major reason why the game has struggled to provide sustainable content, because we're being made to suck the fun out of small portions of content at a time, instead of them all tying into a much larger, cohesive whole. By contrast, if we were to inject a narrative into everything we'd do, suddenly we'd have a reason to play for the sake of playing, even if there isn't always a shiny reward we want at the end of it.

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@Teridax68

They have the pieces there for such an interconnected system already, if they provided more mission-by-mission impact results... in the Invasion System. Those gauges move so slowly, I have a hard time knowing what my actions actually accomplished besides selfishly earning me some combat rewards.

Fomorian Fleet and Razorback Armada (and possibly Infested Derelicts - and the Plaguestar event could even be tied in with this) create a threat (that isn't fully fleshed out, besides the Fomorian Fleet destroying relays) And the new war's sentient invasion force could be added to this as well.

Currently, only the Invasion missions themselves impact the gauges at the bottom of that screen that show how close those boss fights are from opening. If all missions that involved those parties connected to those events, every single mission you go on would have some impact on the Invasion state... but they could go further, and connect it all to a "System Balance" state that the Lotus is always talking about, which is why the Tenno help their enemies in Invasion missions to start with, lore-wise, to preserve the balance in the Origin System.

An over-arching state of the Origin System's factions could be tied to:

  • their power levels (stats: accuracy, attack power, health, etc - killing Tyl Regor could be a huge impact on this facet for the Grineer, while killing Alad V for the corpus would have similar results... that sort of thing)
  • the units they can deploy at certain level thresholds
  • the assassination units they'll send out, even if you're not marked, during any mission on their nodes in certain level ranges
  • the weapons available to the faction
  • the number of enemy units that spawn in waves
  • etc.

Now, it becomes important to work toward certain goals that certain mission types impact separately (like defense missions impact one of those facets, but spy missions a different one).

Allowing solo players to interact with the entire playerbase at large through their contributions toward this system, would be a good thing too. (solo players may want to help their fellow players, but not actually play with them... and they like online games because they get continual updates and grow, compared to single player titles.)

Heading off to work, but this has potential.

 

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On 2019-09-23 at 10:56 AM, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Maiming strike goes against what they want from the game - therefore nerf besides I personally don’t see the fun in just wiping the floor as a bay blade 

Perhaps those people see something fun from spinning like a beyblade and having cramps from spamming slide attack

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4 hours ago, 844448 said:

Perhaps those people see something fun from spinning like a beyblade and having cramps from spamming slide attack

Very true but de said it’s against what they want from the game 

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On 2019-09-16 at 6:22 PM, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

And what will satisfy people whom want a challenge?  Each time de puts something in people consume it then instantly cry their bored or not challenged.

Wich leaves me to believe there is nothing de can do. The poster listed off things de put in to try and challenge us. If thats not enough.  Then what can de do?

And even if something is challenging enough for you.  How long till it becomes boring? Or the reward isn't enough?

Seems like de is in a never ending fight with no chance of victory ever trying to appease hardcore players.

If a player is no longer enjoying something they mite as well leave and do something else.

Of course I'm not the only target audience.

Depends on the person, for me I just want engaging gameplay back, which is to say gameplay that leaves room for thoughtful action and measured responses, rather than just blindly bashing through enemies with a one button kills all combat scheme. If that's what other people view as challenging then that may align with them as well, I do personally feel a lot of people conflate the two, but game balance is always a very nuanced and complicated discussion so locking into a proper range is always a task. 

In regards to people being bored in response to challenging content, or just outright not feeling challenged from the get go, that doesn't outright mean people who want challenge are insatiable, it is just as possible that it means the mark DE hit wasn't the mark they wanted, which isn't surprising with how half hearted most balance effort by DE are these days. Things like the Wolf were incredibly poor attempts to some as a means of creating difficulty, likewise with the one time life in arbitrations, ESO outright went from a difficulty mode to a cheese mode meant just for nukes, suffice to say the mileage can very from difficulty attempts based on how they are implemented. It's worth noting the level of controversy and conflict over the state of the games difficulty and engagement wasn't always so significant as it is now, it was built up over time due to a range of balance shifts and power progressions, so I'm not convinced a more universally embraced balance structure/difficultly scale is impossible to attain, it's really just a matter of finding that sweet spot and actually committing to it, the committing being the hardest part I imagine for DE. 

Of course that doesn't mean everyone will be satisfied, because lets be real, some people never can be, but that doesn't mean we can improve or reach more than what is present. 

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People would expect actual rewards for endgame. The game currently doesn't have any good loot. It's all junk.

A proper endgame would totally disrupt the games economy and highlight the problem with player trading.

Why bother farming for a riven or anything else when you can just buy one ?

The games entire economy and loot systems would need to be overhauled to accommodate any kind of progression based endgame. Unless they just keep being lazy with templated syndicate grinds.....

 

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On 2019-10-03 at 3:47 AM, IIDMOII said:

People would expect actual rewards for endgame. The game currently doesn't have any good loot. It's all junk.

A proper endgame would totally disrupt the games economy and highlight the problem with player trading.

Why bother farming for a riven or anything else when you can just buy one ?

The games entire economy and loot systems would need to be overhauled to accommodate any kind of progression based endgame. Unless they just keep being lazy with templated syndicate grinds.....

 

Define "actual rewards"

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On 2019-10-03 at 3:37 AM, Cubewano said:

Depends on the person, for me I just want engaging gameplay back, which is to say gameplay that leaves room for thoughtful action and measured responses, rather than just blindly bashing through enemies with a one button kills all combat scheme. If that's what other people view as challenging then that may align with them as well, I do personally feel a lot of people conflate the two, but game balance is always a very nuanced and complicated discussion so locking into a proper range is always a task. 

In regards to people being bored in response to challenging content, or just outright not feeling challenged from the get go, that doesn't outright mean people who want challenge are insatiable, it is just as possible that it means the mark DE hit wasn't the mark they wanted, which isn't surprising with how half hearted most balance effort by DE are these days. Things like the Wolf were incredibly poor attempts to some as a means of creating difficulty, likewise with the one time life in arbitrations, ESO outright went from a difficulty mode to a cheese mode meant just for nukes, suffice to say the mileage can very from difficulty attempts based on how they are implemented. It's worth noting the level of controversy and conflict over the state of the games difficulty and engagement wasn't always so significant as it is now, it was built up over time due to a range of balance shifts and power progressions, so I'm not convinced a more universally embraced balance structure/difficultly scale is impossible to attain, it's really just a matter of finding that sweet spot and actually committing to it, the committing being the hardest part I imagine for DE. 

Of course that doesn't mean everyone will be satisfied, because lets be real, some people never can be, but that doesn't mean we can improve or reach more than what is present. 

I really don't know how to improve things when a single part of challenge on other games that makes said games praised for difficulty and challenge gets complained and despised by the community.

Remember that one nullifier with Prova who happens to be able to run faster than the others? Not something poor like Wolf of Saturn Six, just slightly faster and people cry like it's a grave sin to have a slightly faster enemy because "you can't run away from the bubble" when you can outrun the guy and shoot from distance so who's to blame now? If DE want to put full hearted balance, I'm sure people will start crying

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