Wondering what kind of challenge and content we can have in warframe

[BlackVortex]

To me, true endgame content is meant for people who are completely done with all "normal" content and have the best(or close to) gear available and know all the ins and outs of the game and have accumulated enough skill to be able to clear the game solo and go on for a long time(+1 hour) in endurance modes.

That being said, the amount of people in Warframe that are in that stage of the game is probably less than 10% of all players. Meaning if we had true endgame, either over 90% of the players would be unable to complete said content or unable to play it at all(depending on the requirements to enter).
But Warframe being more of a co-op game, people are able to get carried into missions. I have noticed that in the revisited Arbitrations, a lot of undergeared people enter and i.e. in modes like Disruption fail to kill any of the Demolysts in time, meaning they must be carried or have little to no contribution to the advancement of the mission.

Before the changes made to Arbitrations, there was one game mode(Excavation), which if you had the gear and people to run it (that top 10% of players) you would be able to get triple the rewards than you could get in other game modes. This did mean that you had 3 players who had to solo an Excavator and keep it alive (its just like Defense but you are basically alone for most of the time which makes it effectively harder than Defense) and usually a Frost to run up ahead to spawn the globes. This required gear, skill and some team coordination.

I myself used to dodge any Excavation mission because of it's difficulty/reward ratio being so much worse than any other game mode. Except in Arbitration. So this was the only time I actually ever enjoyed playing Arbitration, because I was being rewarded for my effort(best Vitus Essence farming mission).

With the recent changes, Excavation Arbitration is now arguably the least rewarding game mode in Arbitration. As predicted, the spawn timers did not get shortened, just the dig timers, which makes this a lot easier and if you were used to the old dig timers, a snooze fest.

In the early days PVP could have been considered end game content, but since they removed the normal mods from that mode, introduced pvp specific mods and balanced the whole pvp solely around PVP, it stopped being endgame and changed into just another game mode.

The best endgame content we actually had were the Raids. LoR, NM and JV were removed from the game though, because not enough players were able to participate in this game mode and there was just a small group of players benefiting from this and making a lot of money by selling those arcanes.
This is to me what true endgame content is, content that only a small group of players are able to complete because it requires skill, knowledge, gear and team coordination. This is clearly not for the casual players.

Considering that DE has introduced several game modes that had the potential to be endgame, but then changed it so much that anyone could enter/complete it or removed it entirely from the game, means that it is not in their plans to have actual endgame content in the game.

For now, whenever I want some "endgame" gameplay, I just do some solo Profit-Taker runs which are actually still kind of a challenge at times when you try to beat your own time.


EDIT for TLDNR:
Endgame content is aimed towards the top 5-10% of the players.
DE probably doesn't want to create content that only 5-10% of the players are able to play, hence we don't have true endgame content.

Edited September 24, 2019 by BlackVortex

[DeMonkey]

11 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

The best endgame content we actually had were the Raids. LoR, NM and JV were removed from the game though, because not enough players were able to participate in this game mode and there was just a small group of players benefiting from this and making a lot of money by selling those arcanes

Funny how that wasn't the presented reason at all, which was that they broke consistently with the regular updates to the game.

Which they did, indisputably.

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Funny how that wasn't the presented reason at all, which was that they broke consistently with the regular updates to the game.

Which they did, indisputably.

Two things can be true at the same time. 

And I do agree with the OP, DE is not really interested in the older players getting a challenge, as most players quite before they reach that stage. 

Better to get what they can from the new players before they leave. 

They are running a business after all. 

[844448]

11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Two things can be true at the same time. 

And I do agree with the OP, DE is not really interested in the older players getting a challenge, as most players quite before they reach that stage. 

Better to get what they can from the new players before they leave. 

They are running a business after all. 

Even those who are supposed to be "older player" or experienced players cry when we get something that hits a bit harder like terra corpus so what's the point?

[DeMonkey]

15 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Two things can be true at the same time. 

They can be, yes. But the OP's stated reason for raid removal is not one that was ever presented.

Edited September 24, 2019 by DeMonkey

[0_The_F00l]

7 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Even those who are supposed to be "older player" or experienced players cry when we get something that hits a bit harder like terra corpus so what's the point?

Always going to be whiners in any group,

are you going to generalise an entire community in a single sentence because of the vocal minority? 

Do you genuinely want to base your assumptions based on little to no actual statistics to back it up? 

Edited September 24, 2019 by 0_The_F00l

[BlackVortex]

8 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Even those who are supposed to be "older player" or experienced players cry when we get something that hits a bit harder like terra corpus so what's the point?

some older players are still casual players which do not have top gear.
true endgame is not meant for them

endgame is the content players have to build up to, not content they can roll into with any frame and gear they like

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

They can be, yes. But the OP's reason is not one that was ever presented.

Not like they will say "players that do this need us to put more effort for upkeep, these players on the other hand can be given a shiny Keychain and they will pay us, so why do that" 

Once again I do not condone their decisions, Raids were annoying because of the bugs which I avoided for the same reason, I do not miss them cause I never really cared much (until they said there would be exclusive emblems - that's the only time I played them) LOR was less annoying though, JV was a serious pain and you had to pray that there was no mission stopping bug. 

But what is said is the reason and what may be the actual reason could be different, or just part of the truth. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by 0_The_F00l

[-Kittens-]

19 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Two things can be true at the same time. 

And I do agree with the OP, DE is not really interested in the older players getting a challenge, as most players quite before they reach that stage. 

Better to get what they can from the new players before they leave. 

They are running a business after all. 

Mmm. No. At the risk of omg ley meymey response; players are entitled to challenging content regardless of level, aka what we have now and what we need, which is level 200 content.

When level 60 content was introduced the only players that could hack it were players that had studied the game and sussed out what worked and what didn't. No one abandoned the game in droves. No one ragequit and left petulance in the forums. Players rose to the challenge, and out of that challenge came the corrosive/slash meta, which still endures to this day.

None of this require some kind of titanic shift of DE's resources or manpower. DE is literally relying on the goodwill and patience of veteran players to loss-lead and alpha-adopt and video cap all the things in all the ways, and that resource is both precious and finite.

"it's just a business bro" doesn't work long term. It doesn't build communities and warm fuzzy feelings.

Mediocrity is not a brand. Unless you're Activision.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But what is said is the reason and what may be the actual reason could be different, or just part of the truth. 

Players monopolising the Arcanes is an easy fix for DE.

It isn't the reason raids were removed.

What even is this argument?

[844448]

Yeah, yeah, probably the umpteenth time with this but I would like to know your view on this topic.

We've seen many times where the term "sustainable content" being thrown left and right with some definition, but for some reason that definition magically doesn't work in warframe.

Some say it's the content that stays challenging after you've done it many times, which Profit-Taker fits pretty well but for some reason, it's not sustainable also because of many reasons.

Other say riven mod is, and people, again disagree with one of the reasons is the grind behind it.

Being honest, I've never seen any game out there that doesn't have the "cop out" way like these

1. Massive grind

Surely something that always exist somewhere in the game, where you need massive amount of materials to make one item

Plus, usually it's added with

2. RNG

There's always some RNG involved where you will run this content again just to get the same gear with different stats or perks that considered as "slightly better"

Other RNG is the drop rate where after a long fight, the enemy might not drop the material you need so sharpen your blade, because you're going to massacre that enemy race until you find it

Not enough? Add

3. Durability

Things have a limit on how many times or how many hits you can have before you need to do maintenance or repair it, else it might break or unusable so you need to get a new gear to keep up

If people keep asking for this, we might get this kind of update as sustainable content. Who knows? Maybe Rare-5 vitality for 2000% health where you should consider yourself as the luckiest tenno alive for finding it from a long boss fight?

Is there any kind of sustainable content from other games you see that doesn't rely on any of these factors? Put it here

[844448]

10 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Always going to be whiners in any group,

are you going to generalise an entire community in a single sentence because of the vocal minority? 

Do you genuinely want to base your assumptions based on little to no actual statistics to back it up? 

Not going to generalise, just can't have something without having people whine which is great if we can have something without people whining about it

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Players monopolising the Arcanes is an easy fix for DE.

It isn't the reason raids were removed.

What even is this argument?

Veteran victim complex.

[844448]

9 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

some older players are still casual players which do not have top gear.
true endgame is not meant for them

endgame is the content players have to build up to, not content they can roll into with any frame and gear they like

So basically meta or bust? If that's the "true endgame", I prefer not to have it

[0_The_F00l]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Players monopolising the Arcanes is an easy fix for DE.

It isn't the reason raids were removed.

What even is this argument?

We aren't having an argument,

just making statements on what could be possible reasons for the removal other than the one which was officially stated.

3 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Not going to generalise, just can't have something without having people whine which is great if we can have something without people whining about it

And these players can be ignored, yet you make it a point to highlight them as if quoting said players somehow solidifies your argument. 

It does not. 

[ShortCat]

...and the whole thread imploded, because everyone has their own definition of "endgame".

[Jiminez_Burial]

10 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Is there any kind of sustainable content from other games you see that doesn't rely on any of these factors? Put it here

Not that doesn't also use the cop-out of effectively resetting your power level each season like Skyforge did (probably still does).

*Edit* Re-reading, that's prob what you would include under Durability, but it was more eternal enemy power scaling than gear degradation.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Jiminez_Burial

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

We aren't having an argument,

just making statements on what could be possible reasons for the removal other than the one which was officially stated.

Statements which I'm saying are inaccurate, thus argument.

You can theorise to your heart's content, but you can't definitively state it as fact.

Ergo, making a thread in which you say "raids were removed because players were monopolising arcanes and making a lot of money" is false and misinformation as it neglects to mention the other potential and stated reasons for removal.

[BlackVortex]

5 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

...and the whole thread imploded, because everyone has their own definition of "endgame".

this definition to me is the most accurate one(albeit from Urban dictionary):

End Game
3. In MMORPG. Used to describe the playing done by people who have reached the maximum progression and/or the most advanced content currently available.

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, ShortCat said:

...and the whole thread imploded, because everyone has their own definition of "endgame".

A lot of people are unwilling to describe what their vision of endgame is beyond "difficult, challenging and only the top best can do it" because it sounds really bad when you actually go into details on what actually needs to happen in the mission.

Endgame, brutal, best of the best : Wow.

You need to have Trinity spamming Blessing, CC spamming to freeze all mobs to ignore them when waiting for timers and 200% damage buff to shoot the boss at the end : Boring to watch.

[0_The_F00l]

Permanent sustainability with just one thing is an illusion, 

Anything if done continously for too long will eventually lose its charm and fun. 

There needs to be variety mixed in at regular intervals to keep things interesting. 

I personally believe there should be a non permanent reward, things that decay or lose effects with time. 

One of the reasons void missions are still farmed, you can't have a stack of argon crystals for life. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by 0_The_F00l

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Statements which I'm saying are inaccurate, thus argument.

You can theorise to your heart's content, but you can't definitively state it as fact.

Ergo, making a thread in which you say "raids were removed because players were monopolising arcanes and making a lot of money" is false and misinformation as it neglects to mention the other potential and stated reasons for removal.

Statements which have no proof of validity do not necessarily have to be inaccurate - they are simply assumptions. 

Also Never made that statement about monopolising,

or called any of my statements as a fact, just potential reasons of why it might have been, especially considering one of the reasons given by DE was it took too much effort to maintain the Raids. 

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Statements which have no proof of validity do not necessarily have to be inaccurate - they are simply assumptions. 

Creating a thread in which one states an assumption as fact and uses it as a point kinda hurts the whole point.

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also Never made that statement about monopolising,

or called any of my statements as a fact, just potential reasons of why it might have been, especially considering one of the reasons given by DE was it took too much effort to maintain the Raids. 

I never said you did... the "you" is a general thing. 

Ah sod it, this is so pointless. My post was never aimed at you in the first place, please don't get defensive and go on about how you didn't say "x".

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

.Ah sod it, this is so pointless. My post was never aimed at you in the first place, please don't get defensive and go on about how you didn't say "x".

It's fine silly, I am not easily offended if it's accidental, since you quoted me I thought it was something I said, thanks for clarifying. 

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Creating a thread in which one states an assumption as fact and uses it as a point kinda hurts the whole point.

Yes, OP should have stated that it is his opinion, may get misunderstood by people otherwise.

[BlackVortex]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I enjoy arguments personally, as long as they are logical with a proper thought put behind it. 

monkey and I have had our fair share and at times agree to disagree cause neither can see the others viewpoint. 

Most have been civil though. 

I have read the remarks made and I can see where people might misinterpret what I said in this sentence:
 

1 hour ago, BlackVortex said:

LoR, NM and JV were removed from the game though, because not enough players were able to participate in this game mode and there was just a small group of players benefiting from this and making a lot of money by selling those arcanes.

perhaps I should have wrote:
and because of this there was just a small group of players benefiting from this and making a lot of money by selling those arcanes.
the side effect was not an argument, just a small side note which me and a few other players made quite good use of

AFAIK the first statement I said about not enough players participating in raids has been mentioned by DE though

Edited September 24, 2019 by BlackVortex