Wondering what kind of challenge and content we can have in warframe

[Oreades]

Durability...... yeah strait up the day they add durability is the day I quit Warframe cold turkey, 

[trst]

The only content in any game that can be truly sustainable is something that you play for the enjoyment and/or is competitive in nature.

Something that just takes a long time to do isn't remotely sustainable as eventually you will finish it. There is a lot to do in Warframe from beginning to end but once you have all the rewards and have seen all the content the only thing left is the gameplay. And no amount of padding or mechanics to slow down a game changes this.

If you don't enjoy the game's core gameplay for the sake of playing it or don't enjoy the game's competitive aspects (Conclave and Leaderboards) then you will inevitably run out of things to do and reasons to play.

[AKTKWNG]

Yeah, there's definitely a fourth factor, but it comes with a great big caveat.

4. Mastery

Basically, people wanting to push their skills to the limit is a huge driving factor for continued investment of time in a game. This is most obvious in competitive PvP games, where people will sink hundreds and thousands of hours into getting the slightest of advantages over their opponents. The crazy thing is that the game can stay absolutely stagnant and people will still play it. Games like StarCraft and Super Smash Bros Melee are basically unchanged since launch and still have players.

In the non-PvP space, mastery manifests a lot in single-player games with a high skill ceiling. People still play games like Devil May Cry 3 and Bayonetta in order to come up with more and more outlandish combos, and you still see the occasional combo video being posted. There's also the speedrunning community, who will literally play the exact same game for months and years at a time just to shave off fractions of a second from their personal best, though I guess we're discussing the metagame at this point.

Unfortunately, I think it's hard to use mastery as sustainable content for Warframe, just because of how its damage and combat systems work. Even though Warframe is technically a shooter, I'd argue that mastery in Warframe comes from knowledge rather than skill. It is far more important to have a properly modded frame or gun than to have perfect ability cast timing or precision aiming. Sadly, knowledge mastery is a very poor way of sustaining content because it's just so easy to share it from player to player. The first Warframe player who figured out the weird interaction between innate multishot and status chance probably felt like a god, but these days you can just search "tigris prime best build" and it's all there. In Devil May Cry for example, after you watch a cool combo video you might think "I want to try that" and it may take weeks for you to learn the skills to recreate it. In Warframe you watch a cool new build video and you can copy it in your arsenal almost immediately.

[844448]

41 minutes ago, AKTKWNG said:

Yeah, there's definitely a fourth factor, but it comes with a great big caveat.

4. Mastery

Basically, people wanting to push their skills to the limit is a huge driving factor for continued investment of time in a game. This is most obvious in competitive PvP games, where people will sink hundreds and thousands of hours into getting the slightest of advantages over their opponents. The crazy thing is that the game can stay absolutely stagnant and people will still play it. Games like StarCraft and Super Smash Bros Melee are basically unchanged since launch and still have players.

In the non-PvP space, mastery manifests a lot in single-player games with a high skill ceiling. People still play games like Devil May Cry 3 and Bayonetta in order to come up with more and more outlandish combos, and you still see the occasional combo video being posted. There's also the speedrunning community, who will literally play the exact same game for months and years at a time just to shave off fractions of a second from their personal best, though I guess we're discussing the metagame at this point.

Unfortunately, I think it's hard to use mastery as sustainable content for Warframe, just because of how its damage and combat systems work. Even though Warframe is technically a shooter, I'd argue that mastery in Warframe comes from knowledge rather than skill. It is far more important to have a properly modded frame or gun than to have perfect ability cast timing or precision aiming. Sadly, knowledge mastery is a very poor way of sustaining content because it's just so easy to share it from player to player. The first Warframe player who figured out the weird interaction between innate multishot and status chance probably felt like a god, but these days you can just search "tigris prime best build" and it's all there. In Devil May Cry for example, after you watch a cool combo video you might think "I want to try that" and it may take weeks for you to learn the skills to recreate it. In Warframe you watch a cool new build video and you can copy it in your arsenal almost immediately.

I don't think this can be copied just by copying the build where you need the perfect timing and such

 

[(PSN)caffinated_flame]

3 hours ago, 844448 said:

I don't think this can be copied just by copying the build where you need the perfect timing and such

 

Profit taker and eidolons are probably the closest thing to sustainable content

It would be better If profit taker actually dropped go rewards tho

[AuroraSonicBoom]

I assume you were trying to put together a worst possible scenario for the game, I'll help.

* Infinite grind - Some games, like Guild Wars 2, have a dungeon system in place that lets you into it forever, sort of like ESO, but in addition they also have certain gear items with 'Agony resistance', a skill employed by an enemy type similar to the Sentients, that becomes stronger the deeper you manage to go.

Absolutely disgusting, especially for a dev who had made it part of their manifesto for years that they'd keep the typical MMO like endgame treadmill out of the game.

[Proslackernifty]

I don't think any game is really sustainable forever, but Everquest and World of Warcraft have been around for a long time.  So what makes these things sustainable? New challenges, fresh environments, new gameplay mechanics, and a dedicated developer.  To be fair, neither of those games are in really great shape at this time, but they are still getting updates.  So, people will come back to warframe just for new stuff.  It's like pokemon, you gotta catch every frame and every mod. And the floofs.  Floofs are end game.

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

13 hours ago, Aldain said:

There's no endgame because there is no unified power/progression schema that can outline what progress is.

When there are differences in damage and durability that are LITERAL MILLIONS of damage there is no design that can appropriately accommodate either side, if you go towards the lower end you have "TOO EASY" complaints and if you go to the absolute limits that Warframe can reach you basically have a different game at that point.

Warframe has no endgame because its numbers scale is complete Alice-in-Wonderland tier nonsense.

My thoughts as well. The veterans in this game have the best gear and the best understanding of the systems, and have pushed them to their absolute limits. I don't think there can be an endgame, because it's impossible to challenge the players who need a challenge because they're map-wiping nigh-invincible weapons of mass destruction. How do you challenge that without resorting to utterly ridiculous methods? And even more difficult, how do you reward them when they already have everything they could want?

[BlackVortex]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Midcall said:

Before i read the rest of this post, do u have any data or is this just speculation ? I would say its more like 70%. But thats speculation.

if I had data I would not have used the word "probably"

I go by my own experience ingame but 70% I can tell you with most confidence that is incorrect

no proof, but just by going from the amount of MR27's I come across(p.s. afaik there is a bias in matchmaking to team up higher MRs with others) that is definitely less than 20% of the people I meet and even most MR27's don't have every weapon and frame (they are missing some here and there, because you don't need everything mastered to reach MR 27)

Edited September 25, 2019 by BlackVortex

[BlackVortex]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

My thoughts as well. The veterans in this game have the best gear and the best understanding of the systems, and have pushed them to their absolute limits. I don't think there can be an endgame, because it's impossible to challenge the players who need a challenge because they're map-wiping nigh-invincible weapons of mass destruction. How do you challenge that without resorting to utterly ridiculous methods? And even more difficult, how do you reward them when they already have everything they could want?

Well, Arbitration uses the same type of mechanic that Raids used, the nullifying drones, which I feel are actually a really nice method of not going full Nullifier mode on us and still challenge you to use a weapon instead of P42W

One mistake they made in Arbitration is adding the possibility to revive players, which literally broke one crucial element of endgame challenge
You now see the most unprepared players enter Arbitration thinking that if they died, they can just be revived anyway

but since they altered Arbitration drops the once so hard mode (split up, triple parallel Excavation) got nerfed into the ground, being surpassed by other game modes it is now just as rewarding going in with a random team, which to me, breaks away the challenge and the rewards gained for better teamplay
at least I, saw Arbitration Excavation mode as true endgame

and for rewards... you realize the true endgame in Warframe is Fashion Frame right? 🙂
so cosmetics!!

Edited September 25, 2019 by BlackVortex

[belanya]

Il y a 22 heures, BlackVortex a dit :

o me, true endgame content is meant for people who are completely done with all "normal" content and have the best(or close to) gear available and know all the ins and outs of the game and have accumulated enough skill to be able to clear the game solo and go on for a long time(+1 hour) in endurance modes.

You dont need to be close to maxed out to solo everything and go in endurance runs. It doesnt involve any skills either for 99% of it.

 

Il y a 22 heures, BlackVortex a dit :

EDIT for TLDNR:
Endgame content is aimed towards the top 5-10% of the players.
DE probably doesn't want to create content that only 5-10% of the players are able to play, hence we don't have true endgame content.

This is not the main reason, clearly not and your evaluation of the amount of players who could jump into a potential endgame content is biaised.

You should never need to be very geared very skilled (skill ceiling in wf being low) to go in endgame content. You dont design something for 5% or below of your player base. If you do, its just a set of numbers you change and eventually few others adjustements to make it harder but there is still a "soft" endgame content accessible for a larger population. eg raid in wow or any mmo. Also "very difficult" content is good in a long run, cause the "average" player ll catch up with some times and ll be able to jump into it. This is an aim, even if you see some guys doing it pretty well the first week, being able to do it 6 months later is still satisfying.

But wf is different, cause there is a lot of misconception in it.

Even if you could be true, currently i dont think either there is so much players who could jump into a potential endgame. The reasons why there is not so many players who are good, just good, in this game is pretty simple. The progression curve is horrible, the informations always need external sources even for the basis. There is no matchmaking so decent/good players are mixed with horribles or beginners, it leads to a habit of being carried. There is also 0 punishment for leeching/griefing.

But yeah, the game never encourage you to be good.

But the main reason why there is and there ll never be any decent endgame content is cause there is no balance. Our current possibility are so stupid that it makes it impossible to design anything challenging. And for the same reason you cant push good rewards.

Cause yeah endgame means challenge and reward along.

We are literally god in this game. And gods can crush anything and cant feel any kind of progression.

Thats sad, but the good old times when we got our first corrupted mods, primed mods, arcanes are just good old times. We ll never have this feeling of progression, of getting stronger... 

 

The only way to design an endgame would be to expand the game. They totally failed with the aw and the operators. And now we ll have raijack. Which ll be another failure. Cause DE just doesnt care about that. They just want to go fun. Even if it leads the game in heavy misconceptions.

Edited September 25, 2019 by belanya

[Proslackernifty]

On the one hand, I have end game content.  On the other hand, I have content that excludes 95% of the players because they don't play for 40 hours a week.  These are too different things.

[Methanoid]

21 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

some older players are still casual players which do not have top gear.
true endgame is not meant for them

endgame is the content players have to build up to, not content they can roll into with any frame and gear they like

endgame is fun repeatable content, regardless of what that content is or who the audience is.

[Methanoid]

55 minutes ago, Proslackernifty said:

I don't think any game is really sustainable forever, but Everquest and World of Warcraft have been around for a long time.  So what makes these things sustainable? New challenges, fresh environments, new gameplay mechanics, and a dedicated developer.  To be fair, neither of those games are in really great shape at this time, but they are still getting updates.  So, people will come back to warframe just for new stuff.  It's like pokemon, you gotta catch every frame and every mod. And the floofs.  Floofs are end game.

games like wow and eve online tend to last as long because people over such a huge amount of time have simply spent far far far too much on the game to want to leave, took me a looooong time before i left wow, most days were spent in stormwind talking rubbish and doing lots of nothing before getting the courage to just say "nope, thats the end of that" and in my case i only bailed because some other people did so first and caused a snowball effect as no1 wanted to be the first to go.

WOTLK/CATA was my time to bail, and wow (pun intended) i did spend a hefty amount on that game, same goes for eve online and a few others, sustainability doesnt always come from the game its-self but often just from the money you spent and the people you got to know in the game.

[trst]

The primary issue I see with any attempt to add something players can consider "end game" is the lack of balance. Especially if it's meant to be aimed at players with next to if not literally everything at their disposal.

We have frames and builds with literally infinite scaling potentials, effects that can instantly kill enemies, methods to remain literally invincible to damage, and if all else fails many ways to infinity CC enemies. So long as we have the ability to trivialize literally any aspect of the game nothing can be made difficult for players with access to all these options without being done in an artificial manner.

We have many of these artificial methods in game already but a lot of players do not enjoy them and do not want more of them. Enemy invulnerability, nullification effects, ability resistance/immunity, bullet sponges, and weakpoints have all been done and complained about and yet none of it actually impedes our ability to trivialize content.

The only thing that has been tried and kinda works is timers which actually can be a viable method of challenging players given the current state of the game.

Simply put: we're overpowered. The longer this issue remains unresolved or an alternative solution is found the harder it'll ever be to fix.

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, belanya said:

You dont need to be close to maxed out to solo everything and go in endurance runs.

true

1 hour ago, belanya said:

It doesnt involve any skills either for 99% of it.

not true, try to solo Profit-Taker without gear or without skill, just take one of the two and you will notice you will not be able to complete it.
same thing with doing corrupted survival for 2 hours, if you aren't geared or skilled you will not make it to those 2 hours (something to do with nullifiers and not dealing enough damage on the long run)

I guess the same thing goes for solo Arbitration in certain gamemodes

1 hour ago, belanya said:

You should never need to be very geared very skilled (skill ceiling in wf being low) to go in endgame content. You dont design something for 5% or below of your player base.

thats your opinion, I clearly stated mine

Edited September 25, 2019 by BlackVortex

[Corvid]

21 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

I would suggest making a special mission that requires Max Mastery and puts you in an area against 500 level 300+ eximus bombards, rollers and scorpions, with permanent energy drain and no shields.

The sad thing is that I can think of at least 1 frame that would be able to trivialise this.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

The sad thing is that I can think of at least 1 frame that would be able to trivialise this.

Inaros with a Zakti and a Covert dagger, pop the bombards one at a time.

[Chicken-Biryani]

Endgame doesn't bring in the green bills. 👽

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On 2019-09-24 at 8:00 AM, RX-3DR said:

Devstream with timestamp to the portion where they discuss Trials. You owe me one considering that your point isn't even supported by the source you're presenting and you're even admitting it so.

"The upkeep on them is particularly endless, for three years it seems every hotfix we have to have something in it. Every hotfix thread is just fix fix fix fix this." -DE Rebecca, 2018

Imagine having to constantly fix things every other day with Trials because one new bug came up that completely stopped progression. And after you fix that, a day later, people are reporting that they've gotten to the next part and it's also busted because no one could reach that point. Essentially, if they didn't have to fix it constantly, they could have easily left it on the fringe, the problem is that they're constantly trying to fix something that so distant from regular game,

To be fair it’s because it was improperly coded on their end from the start for it to break every update. I don’t believe that’s fair to the players for them to no fix a long standing issue like that. But granted if not enough people played raids it didn’t warrant a fix... BUT it shouldn’t have needed that major fix in the first place being that they’ve been out for years at this point. Gamebreaking isn’t fun and could likely discourage people from playing.

 

 

we don’t have endgame because the warframe community is generally and has became more accustomed to less challenging content and content that anyone can do: 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

"Sustainability" in my definition, is content that stays relevant - people always get things they want from it.

Now, MOST goal-oriented "things" in Warframe are get one (or a limited number), and you're done. The stars of the show are blueprints for weapons and warframes. Then you have the limited consumables that you don't need a "lot" of, but are valuable, such as Reactors, Catalysts, and Forma (including Umbra and Aura). Beyond that, you have ingredients for those blueprints and mods. Rivens are "technically" sustainable content, but they're more gambling than anything...

Content that provides blueprints wears out fast. Content that provides limited consumables lasts until you no longer need the consumables (and then becomes temporarily relevant when you need another - due to their extreme rarity outside of the cash marketplace, they almost always make the content they're gained from, in-game, priority content until you have a massive stockpile). For instance, simaris scanning dailies remain relevant until you have enough Exilus Adapters for all your warframes, and a stockpile for future releases, unless you got a ton from the Twitch drop event way back, that I missed out on.) Content that provides ingredients lasts until you have the ingredients to craft what you want.

If this game had a set number of frames and weapons, all those things would be one and done, with a finite end of their desirability.

Things that stay relevant:
Credits (the Index makes them less of an issue for more advanced players, and makes them more of an afterthought as mission rewards in other content.)
Endo (until you have every mod you want max'd to the point needed for every conceivable build, you'll need endo.)
Kuva (infinitely needed resource due to the gambling nature of re-rolling the purely random stats.)
Syndicate standing (all varieties, but mostly the base 6) This bypasses the normal rules for one and done content, because they include Relic Bundles among their shop offerings.)

Every time new prime warframes and weapons are released, syndicate standing becomes relevant again every 3 months, along with the whole fissure system to crack relics, even if you have everything else in the game up until that point. That's what keeps the system "working" for Warframe, both their in-game systems and company financials as they sell the prime accesses.

So, sustainable content provides: Credits, Endo, Kuva, or Syndicate Standing (Universal syndicate medallions)

At least, that's how I see it... the more variety the better, but that's what it boils down to.

 

[SenorClipClop]

On 2019-09-24 at 5:13 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

DE is not really interested in the older players getting a challenge, as most players quite before they reach that stage. 

You gotta also consider a couple of things here.

First of all, (as 844448 said just below your post that I'm quoting) long-time players aren't necessarily geared for the game being difficult. Even Raids were Hekkin easy as long as you brought at least on high-range Vauban and you'd read the wiki.

Second, players geared for the game being difficult aren't necessarily long-time players. If you've done some research, you can buy a PA, buy some really strong weapons, trade for the top kek mods and proceed to ace every mission within just a few weeks of playing.

[WingR84]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb 844448:

Is it really no game once you've finished the story? Or you don't consider the gameplay as game?

Isn't being stronger the purpose of riven? Strong enough is just being able to do it, why not being able to one shot instead? Also if endgame is needed because it gives something to aim and reason to keep grinding, riven mod fits as the endgame

agh crap... missclick and now i have write the text again, so sorry that i dont look for my wording this time (I'm annoyed by the forum not saving the text)

 

I didnt say (or want to say) that there is no "game" i just said that there is no real content. It doesnt matter if you do 40k or 160k to a minion with 40k life. You need some builds and good damage for arbitration now... but only to get stuff that you also dont need. You can kill the orbmother faster.. but for what? You grind 4 weeks to kill the orbmother faster that you then finish farming in 1 week... what is the point of that?

I finished it... i grind for the arcanes (because i enjoy killing stuff sometimes) and use the escene for what it was that you drop to buy more kuva to roll rivens... but it doesnt really make me feel good, because YES, i can survive a axi survival for 1-2 hours... but i dont get anything better from it than someone thatt leaves and restars after 25 minutes (yes, you get buffed relics... but i'n so strong and got anything... it doesnt mean anything anymore).

it's not bragging... i just hope that with the tao system we will get enemys that at least force you to use your brain and play as a team while you fight and not just onehit anything. The most fun i had was with a random group... we had a harrow that boosted our crits so we did onehit enemys even after 1hour arbi. It somehow was fun to onehit anything... but for what? I want the times back when i first had to fight those drones on lua and couldnt kill them... that feeling of panic and beeing scared when you did hear them spawn.

I want a chanenge...

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

As a business i would want as many customers as possible.  Making something so hard that only 5 to 10% can do it looses me business.

Also people complain they want difficulty but then it gets ignored by most or farmed and made moot in a week.  Only for the same folks to complain again. 

Why fight an unwinnable battle? De should be mainly targetting the average player. One that plays for fun, stress relief, story, etc.

What value is ego stroking over beating a hard game mode?

To each thier own though.  Just my 2 cents.

Take a long break and wait for some new stuff to be added.

Edited September 25, 2019 by (PS4)Kakurine2

[0_The_F00l]

10 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You gotta also consider a couple of things here.

First of all, (as 844448 said just below your post that I'm quoting) long-time players aren't necessarily geared for the game being difficult. Even Raids were Hekkin easy as long as you brought at least on high-range Vauban and you'd read the wiki.

Second, players geared for the game being difficult aren't necessarily long-time players. If you've done some research, you can buy a PA, buy some really strong weapons, trade for the top kek mods and proceed to ace every mission within just a few weeks of playing.

Not sure of the point you are making.

One one side you are saying that some old players aren't necessarily geared for difficulty and also saying anyone can get geared with enough plats/ PA, so why not older players? Hell they don't even need to buy plat, most can trade for it due to The backlog of rare mods and prime parts. That's why DE doesn't focus on them, they are not inclined to buy plat, they can usually trade for it. 

If anything you are just augmenting my point of view. 

On a side note :

You have mentioned Vauban, he is kinda the CC frame and you are referring times when CC was considered king, times change, we are no longer in that time and Raids no longer exist, your example is no longer valid, not to mention it was only applicable for LOR and since you say it was not difficult it is not even a suitable reference. Raids needed team coordination more than top gear.