Wondering what kind of challenge and content we can have in warframe

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

As a business i would want as many customers as possible.  Making something so hard that only 5 to 10% can do it looses me business.

Also people complain they want difficulty but then it gets ignored by most or farmed and made moot in a week.  Only for the same folks to complain again. 

Why fight an unwinnable battle? De should be mainly targetting the average player. One that plays for fun, stress relief, story, etc.

What value is ego stroking over beating a hard game mode?

To each thier own though.  Just my 2 cents.

Take a long break and wait for some new stuff to be added.

Took. A huge break and caught up within a week on multiple occasions. People don’t want impossible content we want content that can’t be one shot. 

Content that can’t be done in a week and if so has more replay value then just getting the rewards and that’s it (something Steve said was an issue)

and with creating hard content wouldn’t lose players because just like everything else in warframe past completing the star chart it’s optional. Nobody is going to stop playing warframe because of some difficulty or optional gamemode is added and they can’t beat it or do it. Likey they’ll continue to do the same content they’ve been doing. Warframe is about choice right? What’s wrong with wanting harder content ?

 

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Not sure of the point you are making.

One one side you are saying that some old players aren't necessarily geared for difficulty and also saying anyone can get geared with enough plats/ PA, so why not older players? Hell they don't even need to buy plat, most can trade for it due to The backlog of rare mods and prime parts. That's why DE doesn't focus on them, they are not inclined to buy plat, they can usually trade for it. 

If anything you are just augmenting my point of view. 

On a side note :

You have mentioned Vauban, he is kinda the CC frame and you are referring times when CC was considered king, times change, we are no longer in that time and Raids no longer exist, your example is no longer valid, not to mention it was only applicable for LOR and since you say it was not difficult it is not even a suitable reference. Raids needed team coordination more than top gear. 

Hi vet here and I can say I don’t speak for everyone 

but someone who’s been playing the game longer is likely to buy in.

 

would you buy dlc or expansions for a game you just bought yesterday or last week.

or would you buy dlc for that game you’ve been playing for years.

Again I don’t speak for everyone but I’m pretty sure players who’ve played longer are more inclined to buy plat and prime access

because it being a free to play model most players who get into the game are going to want to because it’s free after all why should I put money into a f2p game. 

While not every vet or player is geared for “endgame or difficult content”  endgame content or challenge isn’t for everyone. I’m fine with that. ESOs dungeons for examples have different variations for people who want different types of challenge / difficulty. 

Granted harder content yields better rewards (as it should) but if you have no use for the items at a higher level why does it matter? And if you want these items why is it an issue that you have to do this content to get x rewards (a complaint i see with a lot of warframe players) 

 

warfame is a casual game and that’s okay. But why are people upset that some players want difficult content

[RX-3DR]

41 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Not sure of the point you are making.

One one side you are saying that some old players aren't necessarily geared for difficulty and also saying anyone can get geared with enough plats/ PA, so why not older players? Hell they don't even need to buy plat, most can trade for it due to The backlog of rare mods and prime parts. That's why DE doesn't focus on them, they are not inclined to buy plat, they can usually trade for it. 

If anything you are just augmenting my point of view. 

Old players and people gagging for level 500 enemies are not the same group. There is an overlap but the commonly used word "veteran" is just a buzz word at this point used to inflate a group by obfuscating words. You can be someone constantly gagging for bigger and inflated numbers after 3 months of playing if all you cared about is chasing the meta. Meanwhile, you see plenty of people with a Founder's badge say otherwise about creating a game mode that revolves around cheesing the mechanics.

So no, it's not about DE not focusing on old players for money. It's also about how creating "difficult" content is unrewarding from a design standpoint and potentially problematic for the future. They can't expand the story or introduce new systems because it would be a lot of wasted effort that a large portion of the community will miss, creating a potential blockade from progressing from that point. Implementing power creep creates problems in the future and will only fuel a feedback loop of the same group now asking for level 600 enemies because 500 is now too easy with the new equipment. Not having "good rewards" would just make it more ignored that it already would be. A majority of it will happen outside of their design goal and push the game further into what it was not meant to be.

Would you want to spend resources researching, designing and creating a car that is so specific and frustrating to use that only a small group would drive. Especially while knowing that all the research and development cannot be used in any other areas and the only way to expand on that avenue is to make it even more specific and frustrating to drive? It's not entirely about money, it's also that there is simply no value to derive from the experience.

Edited September 26, 2019 by RX-3DR

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, RX-3DR said:

Old players and people gagging for level 500 enemies are not the same group. There is an overlap but the commonly used word "veteran" is just a buzz word at this point used to inflate a group by obfuscating words. You can be someone constantly gagging for bigger and inflated numbers after 3 months of playing if all you cared about is chasing the meta. Meanwhile, you see plenty of people with a Founder's badge say otherwise about creating a game mode that revolves around cheesing the mechanics.

So no, it's not about DE not focusing on old players for money. It's about how creating "difficult" content is unrewarding from a design standpoint and potentially problematic for the future. They can't expand the story or introduce new systems because it would be a lot of wasted effort that a large portion of the community will miss, creating a potential blockade from progressing from that point. Implementing power creep creates problems in the future and will only fuel a feedback loop of the same group now asking for level 600 enemies because 500 is now too easy with the new equipment. Not having "good rewards" would just make it more ignored that it already would be. A majority of it will happen outside of their design goal and push the game further into what it was not meant to be.

Would you want to spend resources researching, designing and creating a car that is so specific and frustrating to use that only a small group would drive. Especially while knowing that all the research and development cannot be used in any other areas and the only way to expand on that avenue is to make it even more specific and frustrating to drive? It's not entirely about money, it's also that there is simply no value to derive from the experience.

You mentioned the forbidden word which is power creep

 

the game as is is the literal definition of it structurally. 

Before anything can be fixed and meaningful difficult content and or maybe sustainable content could be implemented a lot needs to change at its base. And no I’m not saying make warframe into a different game but how we’re heading everything just gets easier and easier with no true difficulty. I’m not against simple enemies but simple enemies and no fulfilling content dosent sit well with me. For a lot of players it’s just nothing to do. And while we may leave or not play warframe anymore  or as often for the crowd that tells us to leave or take a break. Personally I don’t believe any game should be structured like this especially one that wants to stay on top. Personally adding optional difficult content wouldn’t be an issue because it’s optional. You mentioned a specific car that only a few people could drive or something like that. What’s wrong with that? If you’re content with your current model why does it matter that someone else is enjoying that car over there? Let them have their fun

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Took. A huge break and caught up within a week on multiple occasions. People don’t want impossible content we want content that can’t be one shot. 

Content that can’t be done in a week and if so has more replay value then just getting the rewards and that’s it (something Steve said was an issue)

and with creating hard content wouldn’t lose players because just like everything else in warframe past completing the star chart it’s optional. Nobody is going to stop playing warframe because of some difficulty or optional gamemode is added and they can’t beat it or do it. Likey they’ll continue to do the same content they’ve been doing. Warframe is about choice right? What’s wrong with wanting harder content ?

 

 

Nothing wrong with wanting hard content if you want challenge.  But it doesn't seem to me that its even possible for de to make content that would satisfy what the hardcore folks want. 

They will no matter what find new methods to make whatever de does trivial.

Its not like we don't have anything put into the game that tried to satisfy everyone. De tried to do hard modes.  It still wasn't good enough for the hardcore top 5%.  So what options do they have?

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

You mentioned a specific car that only a few people could drive or something like that. What’s wrong with that? If you’re content with your current model why does it matter that someone else is enjoying that car over there? Let them have their fun

The problem is because things cost resources to develop and will have a consequence. Remember, the reason why there isn't "difficult" content is not because of the players but because DE doesn't want to head in direction so trying to twist the conversation away from the developers to the players is just a red herring. In the case of the car example I gave, there is simply no real value from the end result. At best, you walk away with absolutely nothing except a small amount of sales. At worse, you have a fanatic group constantly hounding you each year over how that series of frustratingly difficult to drive cars is not being expanded on.

I don't really care if DE wants to have a useless level 500 enemy mode that doesn't give anything. But what DE would care about, is avoiding another Trials/Arcane situation where they introduce new systems behind a poorly received game mode, resulting in the awkward position where they can't expand on it without just spiraling into that niche group to oblivion.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

10 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

The problem is because things cost resources to develop and will have a consequence. Remember, the reason why there isn't "difficult" content is not because of the players but because DE doesn't want to head in direction so trying to twist the conversation away from the developers to the players is just a red herring. In the case of the car example I gave, there is simply no real value from the end result. At best, you walk away with absolutely nothing except a small amount of sales. At worse, you have a fanatic group constantly hounding you each year over how that series of frustratingly difficult to drive cars is not being expanded on.

I don't really care if DE wants to have a useless level 500 enemy mode that doesn't give anything. But what DE would care about, is avoiding another Trials/Arcane situation where they introduce new systems behind a poorly received game mode, resulting in the awkward position where they can't expand on it without just spiraling into that niche group to oblivion.

De has said themselves they would like to implement difficult content and provide more of a challenge one some occasion. It’s not just what the players want its what the devs are saying too. And again joking about endgame towards an audience that wants it isn’t a very well made joke to many so if they aren’t going to attempt to implement it just come out and say it. I’m sure a lot of people (while I know some would still be upset) would understand if DE came out and said “this is a casual game don’t expect challenge past a certain point” or “we don’t plan on adding really challenging content to their game.” Something I’d totally support and get behind. 

 

Again this is a development issue. I believe de has the ability and can create great difficult and sustainable content but falls flat because a mix of community wants and perception. Warframe is seen as a casual game where anyone can do most if not all content. In many regards if de was to implement any gamemode that gates out or requires a higher amount of challenge it’s not well received. Look at orb mother. I’ve seen a lot of people HATE it when in actuality it’s probably one of the better if not best bosses and endgame content we have currently. Eidlyons became trivial because everyone can get a chroma and one shot a limb and an amp to pew pew so I don’t see much negativity towards it. Before conclave dropped the community had a negative connotation towards it. And while the gamemode isn’t super polished and super duper great. I’m sure that even if it was decent or good because of the community’s perception of the game it still wouldn’t have done well. De can do a lot better with these things.

for instance Arbys and ESO two game modes with potential are either needed (revives in Arbys after it was advertised to be a one life one go. But upon launch proved to be a mode that provided nothing different and a mode that didn’t give anymore challenge then regular endurance.) or eso where it’s just using a nuke frame to get by. 

All of DEs design patterns seem very similar and stale in many reguards as well. Not a lot of new and innovate vs a recycled mechanic that I personally believe some people are picking up on more and more. And while I can say new warframes are almost always unique and fun. Doing the same content over and over gets tiring. Especially with no sustainablilty behind it.

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

Nothing wrong with wanting hard content if you want challenge.  But it doesn't seem to me that its even possible for de to make content that would satisfy what the hardcore folks want. 

They will no matter what find new methods to make whatever de does trivial.

Its not like we don't have anything put into the game that tried to satisfy everyone. De tried to do hard modes.  It still wasn't good enough for the hardcore top 5%.  So what options do they have?

It’s always going to be that elitist 1% that goes above and beyond with any game which is okay. Annoying but okay.  

It being a looter shooter of course while not everyone chases the meta fundamentally the game is so easy you don’t even need a meta for things to be trivial for farming or methods at all at that.

 

and what hard modes would you say have or are implanted in the game?

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

There isn't "difficult" content because there are always broken mechanics that dumb down the difficulty. IMHO a "rebalance" is necessary before any thoughts about "end-game". No more armor scaling drom NPC (fixed armor, give them equivalent eHP with HP increase perhpas make some NPC give an armor buff), no more "broken" items like maiming strike, condition overload or magus lockdown. Revamp of the damages types. Different stacking for aura : 4 corrosive projections (resp 3 + exilus) against grineer is not "coop play" and is too effective.

My point of view about end-game is that there should be multiple types of hard content, from bossfight to endless, some including strong (i.e. forced) player coop, other don't, and my favorite end-game is just harder missions that would last around 25 min with the appropriate team.

The rewards have to be incentive (radiant unvaulted, arcane, Endo, Kuva, Rivens), there should be at least 1 good "weekly" reward from these activities (one riven a week).

Before playing warframe I played (a lot) the first Tom Clancy The Division, imho they achieved good end-game with "legendary difficulty" missions, which were harder missions. The missions were doable (even soloable, but in this case it was a self challenge).

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Hi vet here and I can say I don’t speak for everyone 

but someone who’s been playing the game longer is likely to buy in.

 

would you buy dlc or expansions for a game you just bought yesterday or last week.

or would you buy dlc for that game you’ve been playing for years.

Again I don’t speak for everyone but I’m pretty sure players who’ve played longer are more inclined to buy plat and prime access

because it being a free to play model most players who get into the game are going to want to because it’s free after all why should I put money into a f2p game. 

While not every vet or player is geared for “endgame or difficult content”  endgame content or challenge isn’t for everyone. I’m fine with that. ESOs dungeons for examples have different variations for people who want different types of challenge / difficulty. 

Granted harder content yields better rewards (as it should) but if you have no use for the items at a higher level why does it matter? And if you want these items why is it an issue that you have to do this content to get x rewards (a complaint i see with a lot of warframe players) 

 

warfame is a casual game and that’s okay. But why are people upset that some players want difficult content

 

Different people do have different preferences, and not all can be addressed. It's OK to not like things just as it's OK to like specific aspects of things. 

The difference between DLC for other games and with warframe is that we have alternate means to obtain the new stuff without actually having to pay for it using real world money, 

And when I meant old players I was implying those that already have most of everything possible, I have played over the years and have done fair bit of trading as well as bought plat (whenever I get a 75% discount) I can still buy the new weapons or frames from market or trade for them from other players that come out for a few more years and still have some left if I stop trading trading for plat. 

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

Old players and people gagging for level 500 enemies are not the same group. There is an overlap but the commonly used word "veteran" is just a buzz word at this point used to inflate a group by obfuscating words. You can be someone constantly gagging for bigger and inflated numbers after 3 months of playing if all you cared about is chasing the meta. Meanwhile, you see plenty of people with a Founder's badge say otherwise about creating a game mode that revolves around cheesing the mechanics.

So no, it's not about DE not focusing on old players for money. It's also about how creating "difficult" content is unrewarding from a design standpoint and potentially problematic for the future. They can't expand the story or introduce new systems because it would be a lot of wasted effort that a large portion of the community will miss, creating a potential blockade from progressing from that point. Implementing power creep creates problems in the future and will only fuel a feedback loop of the same group now asking for level 600 enemies because 500 is now too easy with the new equipment. Not having "good rewards" would just make it more ignored that it already would be. A majority of it will happen outside of their design goal and push the game further into what it was not meant to be.

Would you want to spend resources researching, designing and creating a car that is so specific and frustrating to use that only a small group would drive. Especially while knowing that all the research and development cannot be used in any other areas and the only way to expand on that avenue is to make it even more specific and frustrating to drive? It's not entirely about money, it's also that there is simply no value to derive from the experience.

We would need to define what the difference between those two demographics you mentioned are before we can have any more discussions about this. "Difficulty" or "challenge" can mean different things for different people, can be done in many ways including self limitations  (running missions with keys and no mods) as well as trying to climb the mountain (500 level enemies as you have mentioned) 

I personally would prefer fun instead - I have said this before, I am not interested in playing warsouls or dark frame, but I would like defeating an enemy to be more than just another number to add to the count at the end of a mission. 

You also have just augmented my original point, if the designer is only interested in doing whatever is easier he does not really care about the design, he only cares about pushing it out in time.

Time, effort, resources all cost money and if you are only concerned about efficiency of "stuff put in" vs "stuff coming out" , you are only concerned about the bottom (or top) lines of your business. 

On the one side you say it is not about money, while also saying it's about value. Please expand upon what you believe is value and how it differs from monetary potential. 

P. S. You mentioned how it would be a dead end of sorts? To add difficult content, and how it would involve power creep. That is another discussion for another thread perhaps, about rebalancing and mechanic rework. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by 0_The_F00l
P. S.

[beercritch]

One of the things aimed towards the older player is arbitrations. 

I never played them much before the recent changes, but in the last week I have played them a lot. The one thing I have noticed from them is that they are simply not difficult enough to be end game content, so my question would be is where is this end game content?

Its all well and good having high level content hidden behind more that an hours play in a mission, but I simply do not have that amount of time to put into a sinlge mission, and I guess many other players are the same.

Im not one to moan about this game as on the whole I am a big fan, but there needs to be something in there for the challenge

[844448]

17 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

 

One thing for sure the one and done model is the "less grind" part of warframe is what makes it more bearable when other games make you grind again and again just to get the same weapon with 1% extra damage and I'm sure you don't want to make Tigris prime or Opticor over and over just to find a freshly built with 1% bonus damage and all of it go down the drain from getting a new one but has 2% bonus damage

[844448]

3 minutes ago, beercritch said:

One of the things aimed towards the older player is arbitrations. 

I never played them much before the recent changes, but in the last week I have played them a lot. The one thing I have noticed from them is that they are simply not difficult enough to be end game content, so my question would be is where is this end game content?

Its all well and good having high level content hidden behind more that an hours play in a mission, but I simply do not have that amount of time to put into a sinlge mission, and I guess many other players are the same.

Im not one to moan about this game as on the whole I am a big fan, but there needs to be something in there for the challenge

So what kind of challenge do you want? Perhaps we can start from there first

[beercritch]

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

So what kind of challenge do you want? Perhaps we can start from there first

thats a good question. 

For one a mission that starts at a higher level. Something where i have to think to complete it. 

I am reminded of a one off mission a few years back which was a survival where the mobs were level 1000 )or some other silly high number). the rewards dont even need to be that unique or interesting for me, but this is along my line of thinking

[844448]

13 hours ago, WingR84 said:

agh crap... missclick and now i have write the text again, so sorry that i dont look for my wording this time (I'm annoyed by the forum not saving the text)

 

I didnt say (or want to say) that there is no "game" i just said that there is no real content. It doesnt matter if you do 40k or 160k to a minion with 40k life. You need some builds and good damage for arbitration now... but only to get stuff that you also dont need. You can kill the orbmother faster.. but for what? You grind 4 weeks to kill the orbmother faster that you then finish farming in 1 week... what is the point of that?

I finished it... i grind for the arcanes (because i enjoy killing stuff sometimes) and use the escene for what it was that you drop to buy more kuva to roll rivens... but it doesnt really make me feel good, because YES, i can survive a axi survival for 1-2 hours... but i dont get anything better from it than someone thatt leaves and restars after 25 minutes (yes, you get buffed relics... but i'n so strong and got anything... it doesnt mean anything anymore).

it's not bragging... i just hope that with the tao system we will get enemys that at least force you to use your brain and play as a team while you fight and not just onehit anything. The most fun i had was with a random group... we had a harrow that boosted our crits so we did onehit enemys even after 1hour arbi. It somehow was fun to onehit anything... but for what? I want the times back when i first had to fight those drones on lua and couldnt kill them... that feeling of panic and beeing scared when you did hear them spawn.

I want a chanenge...

Here's the question : what kind of challenge do you want? One thing you need to keep in mind is warframe doesn't limit on how strong you can go and they give you an infinite line on power to walk, means you can keep going stronger until you can kill enemies just from posing menacingly at them while other games have these cheap tricks to make "challenge", starting from massive health (bullet sponge) to one hit kill

So, do you want a fair challenge, or having broken enemies to fight on your level? Perhaps you have slight ideas on the challenges?

[844448]

Just now, beercritch said:

thats a good question. 

For one a mission that starts at a higher level. Something where i have to think to complete it. 

I am reminded of a one off mission a few years back which was a survival where the mobs were level 1000 )or some other silly high number). the rewards dont even need to be that unique or interesting for me, but this is along my line of thinking

At higher level, the enemies merely become tougher to kill and hit you harder to the point of one shot, is that your view on challenge? I think it's more to normal progression on other games except we can't get better defensive equipment like armor

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

40 minutes ago, 844448 said:

At higher level, the enemies merely become tougher to kill and hit you harder to the point of one shot, is that your view on challenge? I think it's more to normal progression on other games except we can't get better defensive equipment like armor

I would say revisiting damage values and enemy scaling but saying that is like beating a dead horse because de themselves has acknowledged that scaling is broken for enemies.

[RX-3DR]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

We would need to define what the difference between those two demographics you mentioned are before we can have any more discussions about this. "Difficulty" or "challenge" can mean different things for different people, can be done in many ways including self limitations  (running missions with keys and no mods) as well as trying to climb the mountain (500 level enemies as you have mentioned) 

I personally would prefer fun instead - I have said this before, I am not interested in playing warsouls or dark frame, but I would like defeating an enemy to be more than just another number to add to the count at the end of a mission. 

You also have just augmented my original point, if the designer is only interested in doing whatever is easier he does not really care about the design, he only cares about pushing it out in time.

Time, effort, resources all cost money and if you are only concerned about efficiency of "stuff put in" vs "stuff coming out" , you are only concerned about the bottom (or top) lines of your business. 

On the one side you say it is not about money, while also saying it's about value. Please expand upon what you believe is value and how it differs from monetary potential. 

P. S. You mentioned how it would be a dead end of sorts? To add difficult content, and how it would involve power creep. That is another discussion for another thread perhaps, about rebalancing and mechanic rework. 

Old players is a pointless term to define because it's not a defined block of people with stated agendas. Any two players who have played Warframe for more than a year can give you wildly varying examples of what constitutes difficult gameplay. OP uses the term "knowledge" and "top gear" which implies a certain way of playing, saying how not all old players have them. Creating difficulty for old players doesn't work because you cannot create useful to cover a vague demographic. While you can create a game mode with level 500 enemies to attempt to satiate the group of people obsessed with the meta, it does not directly translate to the "veterans". So you're stuck with too vague of an idea for what you need to do, or a very definite solution that will leave plenty of older players unhappy with the direction. We need to stop trying to frame the discussion as a old player new player thing but rather, people who don't believe difficulty is jacking up numbers and people who are obsessed with chasing bigger numbers. Call it whatever, non-meta vs meta, "casuals" vs "hardcore", it's not about the length of time a person has been playing but it's about the mindset and playstyle.

 

Value is the broad term of producing something that is not just as is on its own. Lets analyze something like a level 500 game mode.

Player rewards : You can't attach new rewards to it because it so sits so far outside the community that you're creating the Trials/Arcane problem. DE has been trying to keep resource gains under check, you see this with Kuva especially, so resources is also out the window. There's simply no groundwork to include any valuable rewards to it. Even niche rewards wouldn't work out well because the ones running the missions do not care about a new niche mod.

Gameplay : There is simply no gameplay added with just jacking up numbers. In fact, it only restricts the playing field further by forcing people to pick the few surefire ways to complete a mission. There's no hopping from wall to wall, switching between melee and ranged and using abilities when they matter. It would just be the same thing we see with people playing missions into the 2th hour. There's also no way to expand on it either, because the game mode is built around jacking up numbers, the only way forward is to jack up numbers further.

Development : You get nothing out of it. There is no lesson learn, no useful data to collect. It's not useful as a metric for determining tweaks either because everything is either so diminished or magnified. It simply exists too far outside of the game's design that it's only good at spotting absolutely broken interactions. Arbitrations would be a good metric for reworking armor and damage. Tweaks done at the base can reflect very visibly in Arbitrations such as a massive shift of people moving away from Inaros. 

Simply put it, just throwing out a level 500 game mode is just going to create a level 500 game mode that offers no value to the game beyond just giving a new toy to a select group of players, only to have them get upset that it's not a better toy in the near future.

[Ceanmunt]

We don't have end game content because it wouldn't be anywhere near profitable. Think about it, where do they make the money, releasing new frames/weapons. Who buys the new frames/weapons, low-mid people. End game people don't spend the money because they have nothing else to do, so they farm the stuff/plat they need.

Doesn't take a genius to see.

[0_The_F00l]

48 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Old players is a pointless term to define because it's not a defined block of people with stated agendas. Any two players who have played Warframe for more than a year can give you wildly varying examples of what constitutes difficult gameplay. OP uses the term "knowledge" and "top gear" which implies a certain way of playing, saying how not all old players have them. Creating difficulty for old players doesn't work because you cannot create useful to cover a vague demographic. While you can create a game mode with level 500 enemies to attempt to satiate the group of people obsessed with the meta, it does not directly translate to the "veterans". So you're stuck with too vague of an idea for what you need to do, or a very definite solution that will leave plenty of older players unhappy with the direction. We need to stop trying to frame the discussion as a old player new player thing but rather, people who don't believe difficulty is jacking up numbers and people who are obsessed with chasing bigger numbers. Call it whatever, non-meta vs meta, "casuals" vs "hardcore", it's not about the length of time a person has been playing but it's about the mindset and playstyle.

That's why I said we need more criteria if we need to go down that path, it is very difficult to have two clean groups they will always be mixed, and the fact that it changes over time adds to the complexity. 

The me 3 years ago had a different concept of difficulty than 2 years ago which is different from a year ago. 

50 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

.Value is the broad term of producing something that is not just as is on its own. Lets analyze something like a level 500 game mode.

 

I am not a supporter of jacked up level number as an indicator of difficulty personally. 

52 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

 

Player rewards : You can't attach new rewards to it because it so sits so far outside the community that you're creating the Trials/Arcane problem. DE has been trying to keep resource gains under check, you see this with Kuva especially, so resources is also out the window. There's simply no groundwork to include any valuable rewards to it. Even niche rewards wouldn't work out well because the ones running the missions do not care about a new niche mod.

Not relevant to what I am trying to suggest, or not able to find relevance to value. 

also not concerned about poor economy choices that have not been balanced over the years while the means to acquire the resources have changed drastically, should be part of the rework and mechanics changes as a separate topic. 

A resource that decays over time is what I advocate if it's purely for purpose of rewards. 

58 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Gameplay : There is simply no gameplay added with just jacking up numbers. In fact, it only restricts the playing field further by forcing people to pick the few surefire ways to complete a mission. There's no hopping from wall to wall, switching between melee and ranged and using abilities when they matter. It would just be the same thing we see with people playing missions into the 2th hour. There's also no way to expand on it either, because the game mode is built around jacking up numbers, the only way forward is to jack up numbers further.

Yes, and it's a problem. Which is why I do not support it. 

The combat discipline mod that was introduced gave me a few ideas where you lose health (or time or energy or ammo ) with each kill but you also need to kill for some progression drop A reverse vampire eso if you will. 

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

.Development : You get nothing out of it. There is no lesson learn, no useful data to collect. It's not useful as a metric for determining tweaks either because everything is either so diminished or magnified. It simply exists too far outside of the game's design that it's only good at spotting absolutely broken interactions. Arbitrations would be a good metric for reworking armor and damage. Tweaks done at the base can reflect very visibly in Arbitrations such as a massive shift of people moving away from Inaros. 

Again, needs to be a separate discussion for rebalancing and mechanics rework. 

Semi-Uselessness of shields for damage mitigation, superiority of armor and lack of AI uniqueness adds to the lack of accomplishment. 

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

. 

Simply put it, just throwing out a level 500 game mode is just going to create a level 500 game mode that offers no value to the game beyond just giving a new toy to a select group of players, only to have them get upset that it's not a better toy in the near future.

OK, doesn't change the fact that those that have done everything already and got all the best gear don't have much that gives them a reason to stay anyway. 

Also does not really give me answers to what you would consider value for a designer. 

[WingR84]

 

vor 11 Stunden schrieb 844448:

Here's the question : what kind of challenge do you want? One thing you need to keep in mind is warframe doesn't limit on how strong you can go and they give you an infinite line on power to walk, means you can keep going stronger until you can kill enemies just from posing menacingly at them while other games have these cheap tricks to make "challenge", starting from massive health (bullet sponge) to one hit kill

So, do you want a fair challenge, or having broken enemies to fight on your level? Perhaps you have slight ideas on the challenges?

I just feel that we have a communication problem here.. but let me try.

I think that the tao system with sentients as enemys is a good think, because they can addept to you. The profit taker "shows" that there is tech like this for the corpus as well, so any encounter in the tao system should somehow have addaptive units that you cant kill with only one overkill weapon. I dislike the "mass over class" system that warframe is running here, because even if we have healers, buffers or even tanks they're not needed. Wisp can now buff up even bad frames to have lots of HP... that was needed as well.

So if you could farm stuff in the tao system that lets you unlock 2-3 more mod slots (2 normal one eximus) and maybe a 3rd or 4th arcane slot (so can you can run fun build without taking away the "musthaves" for a little bit unility then i would be all over it.

I mean i dont even know how many arcanes we have... i use "when hit have chance to gain armour" and " when you melee you get a chance for 40% more melee speed" on spin2win and armour and "chance for % HP back" on a frame like inaros.

I would love to play ash or excalibur with "once you exicute a enemy you gain extra armour", but this and other effects are far worse than those anytimer progs... it is cool but it doesnt work. There is never a moment where a tank has to use the "aggro tanking mod" for silva and aegis to tank while a DPS drames uses the "if you deal damage with a headshot you gain extra damage" because other options are just flat out better 95% of the time.

There is also a big problem that i accepted but noobs have a problem witht.. and that is spawning from dead ends... it makes taking to one side and managing the NPCs impossible. It is way better to just soloshreed the enemys and "try to become the one with the most DPS" till you die to a oneshot kill.

I really enjoyed playing with that one random harrow that gave damage buffs and we could survive longer as a random team, because with oberon phenix revive we had a solid base. I enjoy excavation, because if i play a frost it has a purpuse..i dont mind people running a bad frame when they join a low lvl group here but it hurts me when you're going for arbi and a excalibur ubra joins and dies all the time.

I also wish that we could have some sort of "when you click on a panet you can "select a lobby before you start the mission" like you would do in games like league of legends... or at least let me change my frame in the first 5 minutes to work on the setup when i start a random mission. I know that we have the "recruitment " channel for stuff like this... but why would i spent 10 minutes searching for a team to open some relics? To make it worse... do you want people to spoiler the tao system in the future to noobs because people are looking for others to join them in the chat?

Warframe has "a lot" of problems in my eyes... i like it but some things that they do are really bad game design if you ask me, like the cetus and fortuna frames that are only good for new players that cant unlock better versions of those chars... but they'er locked behind a high standing that you can only grind well with higher MR...many people didnt even unlock the profittaker, because they dont want to grind to a standing of 5. I really hope here that the "on planet archgun" will somehow be needed in the tao system.. because as it is right now most of the time the archgun is cool but worse than many normal primarys or a spin2win build. Add special damage that resets adaptation for sentients or people only play it to kill the orbmother... people make stuff usefull!

When i was a noob i used the fire resis mod to fight the ember drop boss on mars... never again since then (adapt is also a lot better nowdays)... but shouldnt there be a use? Like enemys that deal different damage types that you have to prepare for?

[WingR84]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Ceanmunt:

We don't have end game content because it wouldn't be anywhere near profitable. Think about it, where do they make the money, releasing new frames/weapons. Who buys the new frames/weapons, low-mid people. End game people don't spend the money because they have nothing else to do, so they farm the stuff/plat they need.

Doesn't take a genius to see.

If they would just know how much money i would spend if there would be a reason to do it. I mean any release that gives a new weapon/frame makes you buy slots in theory(if you dont give drops from twitch or seasonrewards that give you slots faster than you need them because of their release speed).

I dont spend money, because if i buy stuff... then what do i grind? I would take away the little gameplay that they add.
I have plat... but if i use it to buy the missing arcanes then i cant kill eidlons anymore.. what would i do then? Farm Kuva with arbi... a missiontype that i cant start when i want, because the missiontype is random. Oh... did i tell you that i also cant grind eidolons when i feel like it? Maybe next time i drop an argonscope...i could buy it.. but why?

The last thing i brought was as a new player... spent 300 plat on a rhino prime BP that then got unvaulted 3 days later (i mean they revealed the unvault event).

[Monolake]

Maybe more people would actually play Profittaker if it wasn't locked behind massive boring and even confusing syndicate grind and if it actually had decent rewards?  Lots of people still play Eidolons.

Rivens are dead since 1) you dont need them for anything 2) all your investment of plat and time farming is killed by the nerfs

[XenMaster]

On 2019-09-24 at 7:36 PM, ranks21 said:

Skyrim

you can pick up this game and still find something that will affect the gameplay even after you've poured thousands of hrs into it, and the whole experience /story will also differ per character used.

Youre immersed within that game. While warframe seems not.

 

Well, rpg genre is still the strongest and Warframe dont have that.

[Proslackernifty]

14 hours ago, Monolake said:

Maybe more people would actually play Profittaker if it wasn't locked behind massive boring and even confusing syndicate grind and if it actually had decent rewards?  Lots of people still play Eidolons.

Rivens are dead since 1) you dont need them for anything 2) all your investment of plat and time farming is killed by the nerfs

You don't need them for everything, but that's not the point.  The point is, can I roll a riven good enough for my twin vipers wraith so they can blap a kuva flood guardian or something.  I could just use a kitgun I guess, but variety is the spice of life.  As far as the nerfs go, it's hit or miss.  My best weapon still hasn't gotten nerfed, and it's at 1.4 or something ridiculous.  

[_Nobody_]

Go back 2 years ago when POE dropped and you will see the forums, reddit and YouTube videos asking DE to stop pumping out content. The reviewer Skill Up, at the end of his "Bold, Brilliant, Flawed" video, said that he thinks there is enough content in Warframe now and there was. They were adding content all the time. So much that it wasn't polished. Quite unpolished.

Majority of the community asked for this content drought. We wanted to see Warframe become better, not through content, but through QOL, polish and improvements to the game itself, not the gameplay. Two years later, everyone is freaking out about content drought.  They have said that in 2020, every month will bring an updated to Railjack. It seems to me, in these two years starting in 2018, they actually listened to the community from 2017 and they haven't added much in comparison from days of "old" Warframe. Fortuna being the biggest but was more of the same. 

Remember, this is a video game, not real life. This is for pure entertainment. If the servers would go down and DE would bankrupt, what then? It's not that big of a deal. I welcome this long "hiatus" of content. You can focus more on reality rather than a obtaining a arbitrary MR number.   

Now, for the mod drop booster? Ehhhh, I see what they are doing as a company but I disagree with it. Worst decision they have ever made.