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"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"


Hammerhead_FireCaste
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Before I get right into it, here are some useful links for context and getting people up to speed with things.

For info on the Hema Dilemma, refer to this vid.

For info on the UEC Medallions, refer to this vid.

What's the common link between the two? Gatekeeping by a minority of players that affects the majority.

Now, before anyone goes all "It's not that hard to get Mutagen samples, just go to the Derelicts for a bit" , "UEC Meds have a low drop chance tho", or  "Just play Conclave, dude", let me disarm you right here & now, because that's not the angle I'm going for, else we wouldn't be here.

I'm coming from the angle of damning 99% of the playerbase(and many potential future players yet to try out the game) all "out of respect" for the 1% who went through grindy or less-played content. Steve even refused to change the drop chance of Mutagen Samples over of changing the base cost. Can that story of "I've heard positive feedback of clans working together to get Mutagen Samples" really apply to everyone, when single-member dojos are plentiful? I can understand not changing the initial value of it. DE is experimenting with different stuff as they go on, but the drop chance? Come on. Even Toroids got some love recently with Hotfix 25.7.4. Are you not going to honor the players who spent hours upon hours grinding for Toroids to rank up in Vox Solaris?

See how this can quickly become a slippery slope? Not changing stuff because some players cleared it and now want the rest of us to suffer through as they did. I can smell the entitlement from here.

And as for the UEC Medallions, it is not going to bring people back to the Conclave. If anything, it will probably make the mode even more dead and its content ignored, but it's alright, because at least the actual Conclave players can feel special with the exclusive loot they've painstakingly acquired. I've seen some players asking for a Conclave rework. That's all fine and good, but "universal" medallions should really be universal i.e meant to bypass usual methods of getting standing, else don't put the item into the game. Throw it back into the Void and give people something else for their grindy troubles.

People are already voting with their time, too. Rebb did mention in this article that the Hema isn't that popular in terms of player acquisition. I guess for some people, acquiring these "badges of honor" isn't actually worth their time, eh?

And if you think these two are isolated incidents, take a look at the new Lua Lens. An item to grind for to make your Focus grind slightly faster. Why not just buff focus gains across all lenses? Oh, that's right, because vets have probably maxed out most if not all the Focus trees, so it is only fair that everyone else should walk the same glass shard path.

Hence, here's today's motto:

"If it was painful for me, it should be as painful for thee."

At this rate, DE will probably need make a choice on who to please: the new players, or the entitled vets?

If you don't want to make that choice, I suggest really reconsidering how you guys go about making future tweaks. There is nothing wrong with listening to player feedback and improving accessibility of loot when initial methods/drop chances were too straining. Sure, some players will make noise about it, but they'll calm down eventually once newer stuff comes out. Meanwhile, future players who looked up the history of it will THANK you for it. It shows that the feedback system works, and that DE is listening.

In addition, I know that the entitled ones are the loud minority in the pool of actual veterans, including the one user who posted that "I don't care if I'm the only & last..." tweet. I'm MR21 with about ~1600 hours in Warframe, and while I don't consider myself a vet and play at a moderate pace, I would be glad to give feedback if I know my experience and voice will pave the way for future players to have an easier time with the game. Some of these may even be my friends whom I've introduced the game to.

But for now, I've sold my Hema BP, Lua Lenses are of no interest to me, and I'm still not going back to the Conclave.

Cheers.

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So what about the argument of "just work towards it".  Can't there be items in the game you actually have to work towards?  If it was an atrocious weapon then I could understand why people don't want to work towards it but the Hema is fairly good.  Maybe adding mutagen to Eris would be enough, but I don't see a good argument other than "I can't be bothered so lower the requirements" in regards to the Hema research cost.  For conclave it really only affects completionists as the cosmetics aren't even that good.  Back when Vandals/Wraiths were set colours it could be argued that the skins provided something unique that couldn't be obtained from PvE, but that's no longer the case (thinking mainly of Strun Wraith).  I haven't heard anyone make the "I suffered, so you should also suffer" argument in a long time.

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Ugh don't get me started on the Lua lenses, thankfully I'm over all that nonsense (for the most part) but the fact that you have to regrind EVERY lens subset from scratch is just not good design IMHO. IF they're going to have an "upgrade" system we need to be able to remove existing lenses to upgrade them with the new recopies that REQUIRE the old lenses to make..... and Oh god the crafting time, we're up to what 3 days now? from scratch not counting gathering the base four lenses cause I think every lens is like 24hrs so thats Greater, Eidolon and then Lua....

It's a system that resembles progression BUT you need to start from scratch every time..... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ LOL NO~

I think that feeling is amplified by the fact that every new lens makes all the other lenses feel like you're wasting your time if you're using them. The Focus system was already something that felt like you where slogging up hill through molasses and each lense makes should theoretically make it feel better but they somehow make it feel worse because of the way they've chosen to handle the sequential build requirements. Instead of feeling a sense of "Awesome! I'm gonna get that!" they take me right back to "Aaaaand that's why I don't care about Focus anymore" 

Edited by Oreades
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things might possibly go in a more favorable direction if people were creative when complaining rather than that something isn't handed to them. if people would try to ask for more Game Mechanics / features to make the acquisition of __ more enjoyable via giving Players more to do, then maybe things would be more likely to change in any way.
but, that's not what 99% of people bring up. they just say "this isn't easy enough" or "this isn't fast enough", among other things. 

 

57 minutes ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

I can smell the entitlement from here.

"i don't like __ so it needs to be different" is not particularly different, to be quite fair.

Edited by taiiat
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I feel like the focus issue is less "we had it harder, so you need to too" and more DE refusing to make focus easy to attain. Hell, there were people who maxxed all the focus trees before greater lenses even existed, before you could run tricaps, and before daily focus scaled with MR, but you don't see them complaining on the forums every time a more efficient lens comes out.

Other than that though, I totally agree with what you're saying here. Hema's research cost should be a quarter of what it is at all levels, if not less. Furthermore, that small portion of the Conclave community that believes keeping the mode exclusive will force more people to play it is flat out wrong, and it is absurd that DE has decided to cater to them.

Edited by Yuri_Doujinshi
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2 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

And no, I actually think DE should offer a way to obtain those prime weapons from the old days, even if it is trough payment only.

They were sold as exclusives so they won't be able to make them obtainable without risking legal action.  I don't have them and I'd like them, but unlike a lot of other stuff there's actual legality/consumer law dictating what they can and can't do.

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Hema should have been at least halved a long time ago, and I say this with also having spent a long time farming for more than 3x worth of a ghost clan's costs on it.

Dojo Pigments are another one of those items that should have seen their research costs & systems changed even though the changes wouldn't affect me.

Universal Medallions in their current form are a complete joke and a dead-on-arrival addition. They should have been allowed to contribute to Conclave Standing as 1k standing is just a minuscule amount that it's at least better than getting zero for Conclave. If someone enjoyed Conclave, then they'll gain more than 1k standing quicker than the time it takes for a person to farm for at least one medallion, and that is a fair tradeoff.

Using a similar rationale, why should someone who primarily plays Conclave, but refuse to even touch K-Drives be allowed to use a medallion to gain VentKid rep when others farmed daily via the races? It is simply absurd that DE opted to go with the path they did. Without being able to be used for Conclave, they only dilute the droptables.

More options to gain rewards should be something encouraged, not the opposite.

 

25 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

They were sold as exclusives so they won't be able to make them obtainable without risking legal action.  I don't have them and I'd like them, but unlike a lot of other stuff there's actual legality/consumer law dictating what they can and can't do.

Common false assumption; it's one of those things that has zero actual source and just gets repeated by random non-DE people.

DE is well within their legal right to re-release them if they so choose.

There is nothing legally binding that would have stated they could never return, think of it more akin to buying a Prime Access.

I personally don't care if they were to never return (it makes sense to leave them in the vault) and it could be argued that it would be a slap in the face to some Founders, but as far as any legal related matters to it? Nope.

Edited by Sean
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Personaly i not have a problem seeing older stuff getting a change to be obtained easier, since, we get more and more things and it just stacks up making it more worse for people who start new.

You need ot consider like a MMORPG that old content gets easier and older gear you also get easier for simply the reason that new players want and need ot catch up to there friends who play longer already, because how do new players mostly start? Due beeing told by friends.That is a simple fact.

The thing and main problem is that older players simply not get a balnace for it, new content we can repeat while older players have it easier to catch up, why i hate Nightwave as example, it is nice to catch up with Aura Mods or so and some nice decorations, etc. It is a limited thing and a chore for most people, soemthing you can onyl do in a limited time and technically even puts players into advantage due the ones doen Nightwave or Alerts even got alot Auras already while others have to wait it comign back in the cicle.

As said, nothing against makign things easier but DE should make up there mind by now what they want, because they eather add pointless things like taht museum instead of expanind on existing stuff liek Simaris and the Codex, or they focus on eather "endgame" like Arbitiration or just push out stuff for new players which is pointless for veterans.

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One of the irritating things I definitely notice from DE is how the grind for "trash/irrelevant" things remains untouch because it's trash/irrelevant (in perspective of both DE and us), but anything that has relevance (like the Gyromag and Atmos) are address because of how significant it is for our gameplay. And when they take the latter, it gets really irritating when they tackled it in a way that either just makes it worse or doesn't feel like it changed at all. Not only do they need to stop being bias to grinds that are "trash/irrelevant" and bring them up to the same care as those that are relevant, but when do they, they don't tackled it in a manner that feels like "ye we didn't really make it better".

Looking back at the whole Universal Medallion thing, I was completely fine and unaffected of not getting the stuff from Conclave, but when they announced the initial plans for the medallions I was happy. Now that they pulled back from that, you would think that I would go back to being ok of not getting it; unfortunately, no. Took me a while to figure out why, but it's not the introduction of them and then pulling out the "use for Conclave standing" that's making me feel this way, it's the fact that they left the thing that got me hopeful in the first place still in the game. As it is right now, it's not even a good "passive thing to farm" because the sources before it provides a much better amount. If they're going to pull out that one, and only, good thing about it, they might as well just pull the entire thing out.

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3 minutes ago, Sean said:

That is not even remotely legally binding and also doesn't even explicitly list what is to be "exclusive". It can easily be argued that only something like the Design Council spot was to be in that category.

"Snag exclusive items".  Items, not positions.  And when you are selling a product in a country you are bound by that countries consumer law.  Items would include the Warframe/Weapons, Solar Landmark and the Badge.  It could be strongly argued that since nothing is specified that it applies to everything promoted.

Edited by Jiminez_Burial
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1 minute ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

"Snag exclusive items".  Items, not positions.  And when you are selling a product in a country you are bound by that countries consumer law.  Items would include the Warframe/Weapons, Solar Landmark and the Badge.  It could be strongly argued that since nothing is specific that it applies to everything promoted.

 

It's an advertisement, not a contract.

Ads are not legally binding, at most they could get hit by "False Advertising", but that's it.

Even then, the Design Council isn't locked down to just founders, and that is the only thing on that page actually given an explicit "exclusive" marker. So already someone could try and go for a false advertising claim, but they would still fail that.

Edited by Sean
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Like I mentioned, I doubt any founders would mind if people could buy (e.g. not trough platinum but trough actual purchases) these founder items.

On the right hand side it does say: "snag exclusive items that will never be available again." e.g. if you read that this applies to all items in the bundle than DE indeed cannot rerelease this content.

 

Edited by Quimoth
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12 minutes ago, Sean said:

Even then, the Design Council isn't locked down to just founders, and that is the only thing on that page actually given an explicit "exclusive" marker. So already someone could try and go for a false advertising claim, but they would still fail that.

The design council isn't even specifically marked as exclusive, and upon checking the FAQs, it says "What is an "Exclusive Founders Set"?  The Exclusive Founders Set is available for a limited time only and equips the user with the Excalibur Prime Warfrrame, and/or the Skana Prime Sword, and/or the Lato Prime Pistol.  This special set is exclusively for Warframe Founders and available for a limited time only!".  So it specifically mentions those items as exclusive to the bundle.

12 minutes ago, Sean said:

It's an advertisement, not a contract.

If you sell something in a country, then the consumer laws apply which are just as binding as an actual contract.  It wasn't that they advertised the offer then refused to sell it to anyone, people actually bought the package with an explicit expectation of exclusivity.

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2 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

The design council isn't even specifically marked as exclusive, and upon checking the FAQs, it says "What is an "Exclusive Founders Set"?  The Exclusive Founders Set is available for a limited time only and equips the user with the Excalibur Prime Warfrrame, and/or the Skana Prime Sword, and/or the Lato Prime Pistol.  This special set is exclusively for Warframe Founders and available for a limited time only!".  So it specifically mentions those items as exclusive to the bundle.

If you sell something in a country, then the consumer laws apply which are just as binding as an actual contract.  It wasn't that they advertised the offer then refused to sell it to anyone, people actually bought the package with an explicit expectation of exclusivity.

 

Actually hover over Design Council and it says "exclusive" right there.

Also, please look into advertising laws and their legality, you may end up surprised.

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13 minutes ago, Sean said:

Actually hover over Design Council and it says "exclusive" right there.

I'll concede that, but that just adds it to the rest of the stuff explicitly stated as exclusive.

13 minutes ago, Sean said:

Also, please look into advertising laws and their legality, you may end up surprised.

Do you want to give quotes/sources or a case that has set a precedent as evidence, or are you relying on the fact that I'm not going to spend hours looking into the law of every country the founders pack was sold in.  In NZ this would fall under the Consumer Guarantees Act.  It is stated that when "Goods" are sold "for personal use from sellers in trade including online sales" that the good needs to "match the description given in advertisements or sales brochures, or by the sales assistant".  It is stated that "Under the Consumer Guarantees Act (CGA), your consumer rights are expressed as a series of guarantees that a seller automatically makes to you when you buy any goods or services for personal use".  Source

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6 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

So what about the argument of "just work towards it".  Can't there be items in the game you actually have to work towards?  If it was an atrocious weapon then I could understand why people don't want to work towards it but the Hema is fairly good.  Maybe adding mutagen to Eris would be enough, but I don't see a good argument other than "I can't be bothered so lower the requirements" in regards to the Hema research cost.  For conclave it really only affects completionists as the cosmetics aren't even that good.  Back when Vandals/Wraiths were set colours it could be argued that the skins provided something unique that couldn't be obtained from PvE, but that's no longer the case (thinking mainly of Strun Wraith).  I haven't heard anyone make the "I suffered, so you should also suffer" argument in a long time.

Hema doesn’t deserve 5000 mutagen samples for research.

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The overwhelming majority of people who have already researched hema seem to be just fine with lifting the requirement for newer clans, or maybe I've just been misled by the goodwill of people in r/wf and r/researchedhema. Is the gatekeeping really coming from vets, or from DE acting (unnecessarily) as a proxy for these hypothetical vets?

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12 minutes ago, sinnae said:

The overwhelming majority of people who have already researched hema seem to be just fine with lifting the requirement for newer clans, or maybe I've just been misled by the goodwill of people in r/wf and r/researchedhema. Is the gatekeeping really coming from vets, or from DE acting (unnecessarily) as a proxy for these hypothetical vets?

DE are acting as a proxy for an imaginary vet who exists only in their collective head. Right at release, we had people saying "we ground this crap out, we do not feel 'honoured', there's no 'respect' in keeping the price this high, turn it down".

The Hema's costs are complete bullS#&$ for 2 reasons, both of which complement each other massively. Firstly is that the species-specific clantech resource cost is the single highest out of absolutely everything in the labs. 5000 mutagen samples, for a ghost clan. The next highest ones are the Jat Kusar, Ignis Wraith and Lenz, each needing 1000 detonite/fieldron.

The second reason is that mutagen samples are nowhere near as prevalent as the other clantech resources. In just over 6 years of playtime, I have a stockpile of 35,663 detonite ampoules, 38,706 fieldron samples... and 4,300 mutagen samples. 10x less. At best.

So, that's 5x the cost for 1/10 of the drop rate. Assuming that people get resources the same rate as I do (remember that early on, we still got mutagens from Jupiter when J-3 Golem still lived there), that's about 7.5 years to get enough mutagens to finish the hema solo. For a full clan (absolutely perfect optimum situation, something that won't happen in reality), that's 9 months.

Nine. Months. For one weapon.

No.

I'm not touching that abomination of grind. Not spending a single mutagen sample on it and I'll have no part of any clan which has it researched. I don't have it and I never will.

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I farmed the hema research, and frankly do not care if they make it easier for others. They made getting arcanes easier, the built ones that took tons of resources, are now pre-built and easy to obtain. It doesn't bother me at all.  I would rather farm the Hema twice over again, then run even 1 more ESO looking for blazing step, when are they going to fix that nonsense and give me a way to earn it rather then the lottery garbage.

DE should make everything in the game obtainable in some manor, replay old event whatever it takes. My 3 sons would not continue playing Warframe, because of the lack of ways to obtain things from the past. I imagine plenty of people feel the same. I don't care if new players can get things easier now.

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1 hour ago, sinnae said:

The overwhelming majority of people who have already researched hema seem to be just fine with lifting the requirement for newer clans, or maybe I've just been misled by the goodwill of people in r/wf and r/researchedhema. Is the gatekeeping really coming from vets, or from DE acting (unnecessarily) as a proxy for these hypothetical vets?

I posted something similar on the forums in regards to lowering the requirements because I had recently founded my clan a while back, but I got that typical response from the more experienced players, "Get a resource booster, it isn't that difficult", and it wasn't. I was lucky enough to have a clanmate willing to sink their time into running Derelict Defense with me. It sure as hell felt like a chore though, taking a few weeks to complete. I still think DE should be more reasonable with the requirements, with Hema & Sibear alike. (Sibear itself suffers from being practically worthless, especially when you need 30k Cryotic, I could easily make Jat Kittag without the worry of wasting that much of a resource) Anyone who doesn't want to lessen a painful grind, well, I can't seem to understand their mindset.

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It would be enough for me if they just added some meaningful side-loot to ODD.

I wouldn't even mind the Hema farm in that case.

But all i get are Forma blueprints, which i have tons of from fissures.

A small chance for a pre-built Forma and scaling relic rewards similarly to fissures would be fine imo., you can't pug this node, so it will be a long, inefficient grind anyways.

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8 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Personaly i not have a problem seeing older stuff getting a change to be obtained easier, since, we get more and more things and it just stacks up making it more worse for people who start new.

This guy gets it. This is currently happening with focus. The only change this hasn't applied to is the Hema.

Those who argue that the Hema is good don't know what good actually is for a primary. It's a great meh weapon. Very niche.

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