"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[DrakeWurrum]

The second video you linked is absolutely right - this kind of thinking is entitled, petty, and mean-spirited.

If something was hard for you, that doesn't mean other people have to suffer. It means "Hey, this was hard. This shouldn't have been so hard, so let's fix that. Then nobody else has to suffer."

It's the one research item I don't have in my wife-and-me dojo. Why? Because farming up Mutagen Samples is such a grindy waste of time for a weapon that's not even that good. I'm only really missing out on a little MR. So ya know what? I can go without.

10 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

So what about the argument of "just work towards it".  Can't there be items in the game you actually have to work towards?  If it was an atrocious weapon then I could understand why people don't want to work towards it but the Hema is fairly good.  Maybe adding mutagen to Eris would be enough, but I don't see a good argument other than "I can't be bothered so lower the requirements" in regards to the Hema research cost.  For conclave it really only affects completionists as the cosmetics aren't even that good.  Back when Vandals/Wraiths were set colours it could be argued that the skins provided something unique that couldn't be obtained from PvE, but that's no longer the case (thinking mainly of Strun Wraith).  I haven't heard anyone make the "I suffered, so you should also suffer" argument in a long time.

I'd work towards it if the work to get it wasn't so ridiculous.

For the record: "just work towards it" is the exact same as "I suffered, so should you" practically. It's the old "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" argument. But there ain't any boots.

The requirements for acquiring the Hema isn't a "I can't be bothered" situation. It's a "This is ridiculously time-consuming" situation. The effort required does not match the reward.

It's a lot like how Gauss' signature weapons are a 1% drop rate. You might get lucky, but is that something anybody will actively grind for? Maybe if you're a NEET. The rest of us don't have that kind of free time.

9 hours ago, Quimoth said:

On the HEMA: You can obtain the HEMA by simply leaving your clan for a while and joining another clan that does have the research. If you find farming the mutagens to much trouble you won't mind the clan xp anyway.

That's a perfect example of why they should just cut the resource requirements. That's not an ideal solution for many people, as a lot of us are solo clans that worked hard to build up what our clan has, and we don't want to give that up. (Though I guess making an alt to transfer warlord to COULD fix that)

Your solution is possible, but also a PITA. Why should we have to use such round-about methods and take advantage of some other clan's previous hard work? Why should they have to be willing to let us use their research labs to gain easy access to something they worked for?

They basically acknowledged that the number of Mutagen Samples for the Hema was actually unintended - but only decided to keep it that way so the clans that pulled it off wouldn't feel slighted. But it's okay for us to just go join said clans specifically to get the BP, then leave to go back to our own preferred clan?

In the end, there is just no GOOD argument for keeping the Mutagen Samples for the Hema at such a high number. Either increase the drop rate, or cut the Mutagen Sample requirements down by 90%. I don't even have 500 samples on me, and that's after multiple farming sessions in a row before I finally gave up.

Edited September 15, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Slush_Magic]

5000 Mutagen Samples and the rest of the resources needed to research the Hema gets you the clan mastery and access to the blueprint that you'd need to spend even more time and resources to make so you can level the Hema for 3k mastery and maybe you'll like the weapon. Definitely not worth the effort.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The requirements for acquiring the Hema isn't a "I can't be bothered" situation. It's a "This is ridiculously time-consuming" situation. The effort required does not match the reward.

For me it is both.

I don't even want the Hema, hek, my entire bio lab is nearly unresearched in my Switch solo clan (mainly because I don't like the "infested" motif) and honestly even if they nerfed the requirements I likely wouldn't get it anyway.

But that is exactly why they should nerf it, because nobody who is sane even wants to bother with it, even if it were 1,000 samples at base at least that would line up with other high-resource weapons, but as currently is its about 5 times more costly than it should be.

[Ultimatesoup]

Il y a 12 heures, Hammerhead_FireCaste a dit :

At this rate, DE will probably need make a choice on who to please: the new players, or the entitled vets?
 

This "New Players vs Vets" war needs to stop.

 

How the F are Vets entitled where is litteraly no content for them? Vets can speedrun all the game's content without breaking a sweat. That's entitlement? Nightwave forcing vets to go through outdated and boring content, that's entitlement?

About 95% of the content is just short-lived content for players that got into the game and are still facing challenges to advance. New players are utterly lost without any guidance and veterans have nothing to do. 

"Boohoo vets are entitled", mate, veterans have been asking for a real endgame since 2014. Do we have an endgame in 2019?

[schilds]

Misery is best shared.

[George_PPS]

15 hours ago, Quimoth said:

Where will the first excalibur prime comment come, I wonder.

And no, I actually think DE should offer a way to obtain those prime weapons from the old days, even if it is trough payment only. The emblems are still unique and higher ranks even have some influence on where the game is going to so I don't think anyone after all these years would actually mind if their exclusive prime content got less exclusive since we've all enjoyed this game so much. The only objection i can see is that they want excal P and his skana and lato P to be locked behind a payment or platinum wall and not in relics.

As someone above me stated, making everything easier isn't going to keep people in this game. Less grindy... maybe. Perhaps it would be better to phrase it as less repetitive options. I for instance don't mind doing endless missions for a long time as long as I don't feel like having to do that same mission type again and again.

On the HEMA: You can obtain the HEMA by simply leaving your clan for a while and joining another clan that does have the research. If you find farming the mutagens to much trouble you won't mind the clan xp anyway.

PS. I truly didn't know people still played SH*Tclave. The PvP content is so unpopular and not related to the rest of warframe that I truly don't give a F* if I do not get any cosmetics out of conclave.

If they are exclusive and time limited, so be it. I have many hours in game and would love to have those items. But the exclusivity is a good design for the game and good for those who contributed early. Other players don’t lose anything if they can’t get them. There are still 99.99% contents available for all. 

[George_PPS]

5 hours ago, Slush_Magic said:

5000 Mutagen Samples and the rest of the resources needed to research the Hema gets you the clan mastery and access to the blueprint that you'd need to spend even more time and resources to make so you can level the Hema for 3k mastery and maybe you'll like the weapon. Definitely not worth the effort.

Creating and developing a Clan is a MAJOR task to do. It’s definitely NOT for any one-player  Clan or any clans with few players. There is no need to reinvent the wheels, just join a good clan. If one really wants to be the king of his or her own clan, the player better hire others to do it together.

[Frendh]

I do not see the high cost of Hema as a problem.

•  Stat- wise the hema is not a really sought after weapon, unlike amprex, ignis wraith etc. (as in people will not feel forced to get it because it is a really good weapon)
• I helped a clan, the smallest size, farm 5000 mutagen samples. We, 4 players, did it in an evening. Can't remember how long each run was but we got 500-800 per run (I did not have resource booster). For me and I hope for most other people that this is not a big deal.
• It is the only research weapon I am aware of that has a "high" cost.

 

But I also see that "Stat- wise the hema is not a really sought after weapon" can be a problem for other people. Once people get the Hema it will feel like a waste of time because the stats do not reflect the effort it took to farm the resources.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Frendh

[Monolake]

Meanwhile nerfing rivens that people spent thousands plat on and countless hrs farming is fine (not to mention letting OP rivens unchecked for a while so many people invest - and only then nerfing them. repeatedly too)

[Xzorn]

Gate keeping has never been a thing in Warframe. Sorry but anyone who thinks so is being fooled or hasn't been paying attention.

Mutagen Samples for instance were indeed buffed in drop rates. It was done from the cover of shadow a few months after that whole ordeal and after DE said they were going to keep it. I have before and after pics showing a comparative difference per mission and over time and I'm not the only one who noticed.

DE has always done this. They make something unreasonable to start them pull back over time. Pretty much every single thing in Plains was treated this way. From Bounty Rep, Bounty rewards, Fishing, Mining, Blueprints, Eidolons, Focus. Every single aspect is considerably easier now than it was first month of release.

So while in some cases players actually have reason to be upset that new players get things handed to them (Like the people who farmed Rift Sigil) it has always been the case that farming something gets easier. Kavat codes, Kubrow eggs, Endo aka R5s, Focus, Mods, Arcanes, Primes, Aura Forma, Ephemera. You name it.

When something is new to Warframe it's often best to not do it for a good month contrary to hype, ect. As it will often result in wasting your time.

[Cibyllae]

17 hours ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

I'll concede that, but that just adds it to the rest of the stuff explicitly stated as exclusive.

Do you want to give quotes/sources or a case that has set a precedent as evidence, or are you relying on the fact that I'm not going to spend hours looking into the law of every country the founders pack was sold in.  In NZ this would fall under the Consumer Guarantees Act.  It is stated that when "Goods" are sold "for personal use from sellers in trade including online sales" that the good needs to "match the description given in advertisements or sales brochures, or by the sales assistant".  It is stated that "Under the Consumer Guarantees Act (CGA), your consumer rights are expressed as a series of guarantees that a seller automatically makes to you when you buy any goods or services for personal use".  Source

you #*!%ing @Sean off the thread lmao

[Cibyllae]

20 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

I'm coming from the angle of damning 99% of the playerbase(and many potential future players yet to try out the game) all "out of respect" for the 1% who went through grindy or less-played content.

You wouldn't have even heard of this game if the "one-percent" who didn't slog through all the grind cried and gave up when they first picked up the game. The playerbase which carried this game for 6 years is the reason why you are playing today. Without them, playerbase would have dropped and DE would have lost funding. Game would be in the same position as evolve 2.

Watch this video and you will understand

 

[Aldain]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Creating and developing a Clan is a MAJOR task to do. It’s definitely NOT for any one-player

I have a solo clan on Switch that has almost everything in the Tenno Lab researched and most of the energy lab done as well, otherwise I research on a "I want this" basis and am not limited on being alone in my clan in the slightest.

Clans aren't a major task to get running in Warframe, maybe for a new starting player, but anyone with some time under their belt can easily power through the research at ghost level...except the Hema because it is 5 times the requirement of even comparable Corpus/Grineer research and the drops are limited and uncommon.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Aldain

[Test-995]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Creating and developing a Clan is a MAJOR task to do. It’s definitely NOT for any one-player  Clan or any clans with few players. There is no need to reinvent the wheels, just join a good clan. If one really wants to be the king of his or her own clan, the player better hire others to do it together.

Did you know clan has a ranking system for the sake of small clans or solo clans?

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

8 hours ago, Ultimatesoup said:

This "New Players vs Vets" war needs to stop.

 

How the F are Vets entitled where is litteraly no content for them? Vets can speedrun all the game's content without breaking a sweat. That's entitlement? Nightwave forcing vets to go through outdated and boring content, that's entitlement?

About 95% of the content is just short-lived content for players that got into the game and are still facing challenges to advance. New players are utterly lost without any guidance and veterans have nothing to do. 

"Boohoo vets are entitled", mate, veterans have been asking for a real endgame since 2014. Do we have an endgame in 2019?

Jesus Christ, dude. If you read a bit more, you'd reach the part where I said that the entitled ones are in the loud minority of actual vets.
 

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

You wouldn't have even heard of this game if the "one-percent" who didn't slog through all the grind cried and gave up when they first picked up the game. The playerbase which carried this game for 6 years is the reason why you are playing today. Without them, playerbase would have dropped and DE would have lost funding. Game would be in the same position as evolve 2.

Watch this video and you will understand

 

You're missing the point completely, but I'll humor you. I was there from 2013-2014. I even dropped some plat because I got a great experience out of a free game. Towards mid-2014, I decided "Eh, it was a good run, but I think I've experienced what is there to experience with the game", and took a break. I came back when Plains of Eidolon was announced, and was surprised to see individual containers for things like Control Modules and Neural Sensors. I thought "Well that's good! The newer guys won't need to repeatedly kill bosses for these resources, like we had to back in the day." Extractors were also put into the game to gain additional resources, which makes things even better. I feel that's one of the good turning points of the game.

I'm only talking about those few situations that needlessly making things hard for the other players even after feedback was given. That's it.

[Cibyllae]

1 hour ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

You're missing the point completely,

 

23 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

At this rate, DE will probably need make a choice on who to please: the new players, or the entitled vets?

 

You sure I missed the point?

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

5 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

 

 

You sure I missed the point?

Congrats, you're the second person who missed this part, and just like the other guy, you jumped the gun at that first sentence, too.

I've laid out the disarms and caveats to filter out all the unnecessary drivel so we can focus on the points that matter. If you still run your mouth without reading the entire thing, well that's your goddamn problem.

[----Legacy----]

23 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

That's all fine and good, but "universal" medallions should really be universal

These are Universal in what concerns PvE syndicates.

23 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

meant to bypass usual methods of getting standing

DE has shown to be against letting players completely bypass content many times, so that adds to why these are bad in concept.

On 2019-09-15 at 4:21 AM, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

People are already voting with their time, too. Rebb did mention in this article that the Hema isn't that popular in terms of player acquisition. I guess for some people, acquiring these "badges of honor" isn't actually worth their time, eh?

Hema isn't even that powerful (or people would be even crazier for being "forced" to buy it with plat, this playerbase loves that buzzword), conclave rewards don't even offer statistic advantages or mastery, these are just cosmetics in the same way as the old skull badges or the Quantum Badge from Tethra's doom where not having them won't affect your progression or power in any way.

On 2019-09-15 at 4:21 AM, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

At this rate, DE will probably need make a choice on who to please: the new players, or the entitled vets?

I'd step aside from the entitlement discussion, one could easily argue about your post being backwards and DE having to choose between pleasing old players or the self entitled newbies. Specially when the discussion involves some cosmetics and tries to compare them with actual gear to make a point despite no comparison being possible between them.

[FrostDragoon]

Not going to read the whole comment section, but I'll say this. I've run two accounts into MR 20+ since 2013. I'm a vet. I've always thought the Hema mutagen cost was ridiculous and never once considered attempting that grind. I won't buy it with plat unless it's the very last weapon I need to have maxed out everything and haven't gotten it through dojo yet--and even then I might skip it. My clan size is for 10 members and there are usually only 2-3 active at a time, most of the others being fairly new players since I built the dojo myself. At that rank it still costs 5,000 of a "rare" resource. Screw that noise. It's not a fun idea. It was never a good idea. DE really screwed the pooch with whatever line of reasoning made them think they should do it. Knock a "0" off that and I would consider doing that grind with Nekros and a booster. Otherwise, it will always be low on player acquisition because it's a waste of time/energy to pursue for a mediocre weapon.

[Ultimatesoup]

Il y a 5 heures, Hammerhead_FireCaste a dit :

Jesus Christ, dude. If you read a bit more, you'd reach the part where I said that the entitled ones are in the loud minority of actual vets.

Although I don't clearly understand you're definition about what an "entitled vet" is in that part, I'll try to summarize : 

-You're calling people that went through the grinding and are mad that their time is basically wasted because DE finally understands that grind is fun for no one : "Entitled", while 

-You're saying that they're a vocal minority while pretty much 100% of the vets have been LOUDLY asking for an endgame since years

 

Edit : It still amazes me how players keep blaming players for DE's very poor decision-making. We still don't have universal vacuum, chat moderation is very poorly designed despite its exposure, Nightwave is just a massive boring grindwall, Archwing sucks, K-Drive is useless,80% of the content is doable 1 time before becoming irrelevant, we still have don't have an endgame... The list is still long, and most the flaws are obvious yet somehow they are released. None of this is the players' fault, no matter their level or playtime.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Ultimatesoup

[Velothed]

1 hour ago, Ultimatesoup said:

Although I don't clearly understand you're definition about what an "entitled vet" is in that part, I'll try to summarize : 

-You're calling people that went through the grinding and are mad that their time is basically wasted because DE finally understands that grind is fun for no one : "Entitled", while 

-You're saying that they're a vocal minority while pretty much 100% of the vets have been LOUDLY asking for an endgame since years

No, he is saying that the Vets that act entitled and want everyone to suffer like they did, are a vocal minority of all the vets in the game. From what I gather the vocal vets that want an endgame are not a minority of vets, but a sizeable group. Those two groups are subsets of Veterans and while the may overlap, noone (in this discussion) said they are the same people. Wanting something to do, ergo an endgame, is not entitled, wanting a stupid grind to stay as it is, because they already had to endure it, is.

1 hour ago, Ultimatesoup said:

Edit : It still amazes me how players keep blaming players for DE's very poor decision-making. We still don't have universal vacuum, chat moderation is very poorly designed despite its exposure, Nightwave is just a massive boring grindwall, Archwing sucks, K-Drive is useless,80% of the content is doable 1 time before becoming irrelevant, we still have don't have an endgame... The list is still long, and most the flaws are obvious yet somehow they are released. None of this is the players' fault, no matter their level or playtime.

Is a very valid criticism but doesn't have much to do with the topic, as op didn't blame players for any of the problems you listed. It's not either "Everything is DEs fault" or "Everything is the players fault", currently we are talking about a problem that comes from People acting entitled and DE either appeasing them or using them as a scapegoat to not do anything.

[Ultimatesoup]

il y a 31 minutes, Vethalon a dit :

No, he is saying that the Vets that act entitled and want everyone to suffer like they did, are a vocal minority of all the vets in the game. From what I gather the vocal vets that want an endgame are not a minority of vets, but a sizeable group. Those two groups are subsets of Veterans and while the may overlap, noone (in this discussion) said they are the same people. Wanting something to do, ergo an endgame, is not entitled, wanting a stupid grind to stay as it is, because they already had to endure it, is.

That's what I understood 🤔

I disagree with calling the vets that complain "entitled", they just don't want to see the value of their (wasted) time go down. I agree that the ridiculous grind should be reduced, but having commitment's value being reduced is not a pleasant thing.

il y a 43 minutes, Vethalon a dit :

ry valid criticism but doesn't have much to do with the topic, as op didn't blame players for any of the problems you listed. It's not either "Everything is DEs fault" or "Everything is the players fault", currently we are talking about a problem that comes from People acting entitled and DE either appeasing them or using them as a scapegoat to not do anything.

DE takes a bad decision => Players (vets included) complain about it => DE doesn't change course => People commit to it => DE backpedals years later => Vets complain for their wasted time and contest the backpedaling => Players bash the vets

My point is, you can't just call vets entitled because everyone's POV is narrowed down to the last 3 points.

Again, yes, these changes have to be made, yes even Veterans should agree with these changes, but no one is entitled in this mess.

[Velothed]

57 minutes ago, Ultimatesoup said:

you can't just call vets entitled

I'm a vet myself, I did most of those grinds myself, I don't find the time I spent on a stupid grind devalued, because it didn't have any value to begin with. I did it because I wanted to have something and I wanted to have it, to have fun with it. I would love for everyone to be able to have that fun too. A bit of grind is good, it feels like you earned something. If however that grind get's reduced later, it really shouldn't effect you in anyway. I have this discussion with my best friend a lot. He is annoyed that daily Tribute sigils aren't locked behind a specific playtime any more and that everyone has the Prime Operator Suit now, which I find utterly ridiculous.

I get being proud of something you had to acquire through skill. Logging in 900 days is not skill, paying money at a specific time for prime access is not skill, doing an incredibly tedious and repetitive task for hours and hours is not skill.

I'd have absolutely no problem with the introduction of say a special Sigil for players who can do 6x3 Eidolons, I'll probably never be able to do that.

I'm not really against conclave standing only being available through conclave. I'm more interested in the whole Hema topic.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Monolake said:

Meanwhile nerfing rivens that people spent thousands plat on and countless hrs farming is fine (not to mention letting OP rivens unchecked for a while so many people invest - and only then nerfing them. repeatedly too)

Oh for RNG'esus sake...

Rivens are literally stated, from the start of their implementation, to be based on the popularity of the weapon in question. The entire plan was to take unpopular weapons and give them something that could, with the right roll, make them powerful and popular again. If a weapon becomes meta because of the Rivens you get for it, then it's becoming more popular and will get balanced back. Especially during the earlier days of them when there wasn't any adjustment for how powerful the base weapon is, just for the popularity. Now that it's based on both, the adjustments have been getting smaller, the number of weapons adjusted have been less, and the only real wall-of-dread that's rolling up is the Melee ones that are all coming with the melee stat reworks in the near future.

The whole thing with Rivens is that until ever weapon has a Disposition that is balanced for both its popularity and for its relative strength, then we're going to get changes to them.

And since the community shifts its popularity of weapons every time a new mod comes out for that type of weapon, as well as every time a new weapon is released... that's going to be never.

If you weren't aware of what you were getting into when you started, you blooming well should be by now and your expectations should already be tempered for it. Heck, new Prime rolling around right now, there's going to be more adjustments then because that's always when they make Riven adjustments (according to their own statements). Which way do you think DE are going to jump on Snipers? Up, down or leave? They're certainly the meta for Eidolons still. How about the bows, they just buffed all of those, so they might decide to tone down the Rivens for them (I've got a Paris Riven that lets my Mk-1 Paris kill level 165 enemies with very little effort, even if it only one-shots the trash mobs, I wonder what's going to happen there?) just to be safe.

Might want to think about those ones you have and mayyyyybe consider passing those powerful ones on before they get adjusted, or maybe you should take a guess at some of the less powerful ones and see if DE are going to buff them up? Oh, but what if everyone else is thinking the same thing? What if the amount of people trying to sell off before DE adjusts anything drives the prices down? RNG'esus preserve us! Think of the Plat, won't somebody think of the Platinum?!

Prospecting on digital currency Futures is such a joyfully arbitrary and pointless function.

[Velothed]

6 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

Dude, I got to say, I love your posts!