"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[el_chanis]

57 minutes ago, Grahark said:

There IS NO META in this game. Camping Mot for hours is not META. This game is about Fun. Like fun or leave fun. DE don't care if you want to camp and "feel" like you a re E-Peen "winner". 

there is a meta, and while the majority of the game is about fun, the hardest scenarios aren't, and do indeed demand a heavy focus on meta stuff. There is a reason why Zenurik is the absolute dominant among schools, or volt, chroma and rhino bieng the top choices for eidolon hunts. No matter how hard you try, you won't see a vauban, excalibur, loki or frost doing 3x3. And SOMETIMES, just sometimes, DE adress fun, even if destroys the meta, for instance, melee sliding or self damage on tonkor.

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, el_chanis said:

There is a reason why Zenurik is the absolute dominant among schools

Actually, while I do agree with you, this particular one is because players are generically in favour of the path of least resistance. The easiest way to do that is free energy regen ^^

[FrostDragoon]

It's easy to blame it on "it's easy," but I think the way that players feel so energy starved without it (especially after the Focus rework) is the core issue. Building energy pads is tedious. Nobody wants to commit to specific faction procs. Few frames offer that energy, and the ones that do are largely considered "unfun" in such a supportive role.

The reason that's an issue is because the whole point of having so many different frames is to play with all their different powers--which you can't do when you're out of energy. It's not as if this is some kind of tactical PvP game where resource management plays a huge role in the gameplay. If anything, it seems more like an annoyance. I'm not advocating that everything should be free of energy cost, though. I'm simply pointing out that the balance between "enough energy to have fun" and "enough lack to sometimes endanger you" isn't well established in the game.

That's the real reason players just default to the "easy" choice when it comes to energy generation, imo.

[Cibyllae]

19 hours ago, Vethalon said:

he isn't talking about every single vet, but a vocal minority of them.

That's definitely not how his words came across.

 

Edit: And no, one sentence in the last paragraph of OPs post does not negate the entire tone of it.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Cibyllae

[Teridax68]

As those who have heard about the issue know, DE has taken a stance where they've refused to decrease the ridiculously high Mutagen Sample requirements for researching the Hema, and have special-cased Universal Medallions to not work with Conclave standing. Their reason? It wouldn't be fair to players who have already gone through the pain of those respective grinding processes. Putting aside how absurd that stance is on its own, it is also hypocritical, given the many occasions in which DE has had no qualms being "unfair" to more veteran players:

• Building items in Fortuna infamously requires a whole lot of different fish parts and gems, which at one point had to be painstakingly farmed piece by piece. In came the Exploiter Orb, whose drop table allowed players to obtain several hours' worth of those items in the space of a few minutes.
• The same as the above happened in the Plains of Eidolon, and the addition of Thumpers, who also drop rare mods that otherwise can only be found on Grineer Commander units, who only appear in Assassination bounties, with a 0.5% drop chance.
• Grinding Vox Solaris rep required farming Profit-Taker for 6k Standing a pop, and before then relied on the much grindier process of hunting for 1k Standing Toroids in caves. With the Exploiter Orb, players can now get 12k Standing in a much quicker and easier fight.
• The Bloodshed Sigil, which used to have a drop chance of 1%, now has a 3% chance to drop, allowing newer players to obtain it much quicker if they commit to it.
• Zaw, Operator and Amp Arcanes in the Plains of Eidolon once had to be individually crafted, requiring immense amounts of Plains resources, especially Cetus Wisps, who could only be efficiently farmed by running a specific route along the Plains on loop. Now, all blueprints have been turned into ready-to-use Arcanes instead.
• Plains of Eidolon bounties once only gave a single reward on completion. Now, they not only give a reward for each stage completed, but also have bonus objectives that let players have a better chance at the rare rewards in the loot table.
• As we speak, Arbitrations are getting reworked to give out more rewards, more frequently, and more consistently.
• With the new Disruption missions, we've just received the new Lua lens, which allows the user to gain Focus 44% faster than with an Eidolon lens.
• Items that were once event-exclusive, such as the Braton and Lato Vandal, are now available in always-on mission types.
• Midway through the recent Dog Days event, DE allowed us to significantly increase the pace at which we gained Nakak Pearls, allowing players who played after that update to grind much quicker than if they'd started before.
• Orokin Reactors and Catalysts, two crucial power-boosting items that once could only be acquired at random, and Nitain Extract, once an infamously unreliable resource to grind, can now be reliably purchased through Nightwave.

I'm sure there are tons more examples I'm missing; if you think of something, post it below and I'll include it here.

To be clear, I am not criticizing DE for making any of these changes, I think every change listed here benefited Warframe and its players. Rather, my point here is that DE has made the game more accessible to players getting started on the grind on numerous occasions, to the point where it's become standard in their development process, and so irrespective of how "unfair" it would be to players who went through a much tougher grind previously. All of these changes have at best massively improved the experience of players with easier access to content, and at worst done absolutely nothing to change the experience of those who completed the grind already. Also worth pointing out that in some cases a vocal minority of players did in fact complain, namely when the Braton and Lato Vandal were re-released in ESO and some beta testers were upset at the loss of their weapons' exclusivity, yet DE still went through with those changes, to the rejoicing of a much larger number of people.

Thus, it is hypocritical of Digital Extremes to do all of that, yet do a 180 on a select few pain points and claim that they want to be fair to players who have slogged through certain bits of content. I do say hypocritical, because the decision is a conscious one: if DE had simply not gotten around to fixing the Mutagen costs on the Hema, or accidentally not made Universal Medallions as universal as they should've been, there would've been an inconsistency, but as we all know DE intentionally took a stand, and released public statements concerning both, defending the deliberate choice to keep those features in a less-than-ideal state. Because of this deliberate action, DE has set a double standard between seemingly arbitrary components of their game, for no seemingly good reason. This isn't the only time this has happened, either, which raises the question of why this happens in the first place. The sooner these inconsistencies are resolved in favor of players currently going through the grind, the better.

TL;DR: DE claims on one hand that they want to keep progression intentionally painful on the Hema and Conclave out of fairness for players who endured the grind, but has smoothed progress on their game many, many times before, to everyone's benefit, without caring about the impact on players who had progressed before then. There is thus no valid defense for the stance DE has taken on Mutagen Samples and Universal Medallions, and plenty of evidence for why reducing the requirements on the former, and re-allowing the latter to boost Conclave progress, would be positive for the game and its playerbase.

[Redrum_Wraith]

Is this really about Hema or is it about wanting PvP cosmetics without having to play PvP? What's not valid about restricting PvP rewards to PvP?

I don't PvP in Warframe and I likely never will and I fail to see what is so hard to understand about making PvP rewards come from PvP only. Universal Medallions should NEVER have been tied to Conclave from the start.

The solution to fixing PvP or making it more engaging is not, and should not be in PvE.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Redrum_Wraith

[AEP8FlyBoy]

It's not a question that upping the usefulness of Universal Medallions and lowering the costs of the Hema's research would be better for everyone (even players that already went through that hell). I just don't think DE wants to divide the players who actually like playing PvP and earning rewards through competition, and the players that just want Conclave rewards without actually playing it because they wouldn't have the time to get better without being curb-stomped by Conclave pros.

I personally wouldn't be against Universal Medallions giving me Conclave Standing, but if I really wanted to earn the rest of the rewards available in that mode, I'd just ask a friend to help me out. At the end of the day, consistency really isn't something that DE fully adheres to in a variety of ways. It does really make me wonder why they make so many other grinds easier after a period of time, and keep a select few of them equally difficult or outrageously time consuming.

Edited September 18, 2019 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Stormdragon]

25 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Their reason? It wouldn't be fair to players who have already gone through the pain of those respective grinding processes.

Iirc, it was because it wasn't/didn't feel right to let players rank up in conclave without participation in it, aka "we don't want parts of the game to be completely bypassed". 

49 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I am not criticizing DE for making any of these changes, I think every change listed here benefited Warframe and its players.

Agree with most of the points, specially with event weapons (we would have a lot of players just missing out on them) or the dog days one since before it was made, going afk was the meta for grinding Nakak pearls instead of actually playing.

53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

DE claims on one hand that they want to keep progression intentionally painful on the Hema and Conclave out of fairness for players who endured the grind, but has smoothed progress on their game many, many times before, to everyone's benefit, without caring about the impact on players who had progressed before then.

To be fair, i'm all in for a reduction to the grind in both, the Hema (my clan has already completed it) and conclave, i wouldn't even mind if Teshin gave away a pack containing all of the conclave mods available through the syndicate so people would stop using "i have no conclave mods" as an excuse to not play conclave. 

However, having a PvE way to progress in PvP doesn't make any sense and is just a lazy way to make the rewards easier to obtain without at least trying to fix the biggest flaws of the game mode first. It's also an issue on its own if you keep in mind that, conclave matchmaking has 48 player pools (6 regions × 4 game modes × 2 "tiers") where tier depends of the player conclave rank and players gets locked out of RC (lower tier) after reaching syndicate rank 3 which could now be made without ever playing PvP and leaving someone with 0 experience with no choice other than playing with old players if they ever decide to give it a legit try.

[Monolake]

On 2019-09-16 at 5:03 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh for RNG'esus sake...

Rivens are literally stated, from the start of their implementation, to be based on the popularity of the weapon in question. The entire plan was to take unpopular weapons and give them something that could, with the right roll, make them powerful and popular again. If a weapon becomes meta because of the Rivens you get for it, then it's becoming more popular and will get balanced back. Especially during the earlier days of them when there wasn't any adjustment for how powerful the base weapon is, just for the popularity. Now that it's based on both, the adjustments have been getting smaller, the number of weapons adjusted have been less, and the only real wall-of-dread that's rolling up is the Melee ones that are all coming with the melee stat reworks in the near future.

The whole thing with Rivens is that until ever weapon has a Disposition that is balanced for both its popularity and for its relative strength, then we're going to get changes to them.

And since the community shifts its popularity of weapons every time a new mod comes out for that type of weapon, as well as every time a new weapon is released... that's going to be never.

If you weren't aware of what you were getting into when you started, you blooming well should be by now and your expectations should already be tempered for it. Heck, new Prime rolling around right now, there's going to be more adjustments then because that's always when they make Riven adjustments (according to their own statements). Which way do you think DE are going to jump on Snipers? Up, down or leave? They're certainly the meta for Eidolons still. How about the bows, they just buffed all of those, so they might decide to tone down the Rivens for them (I've got a Paris Riven that lets my Mk-1 Paris kill level 165 enemies with very little effort, even if it only one-shots the trash mobs, I wonder what's going to happen there?) just to be safe.

Might want to think about those ones you have and mayyyyybe consider passing those powerful ones on before they get adjusted, or maybe you should take a guess at some of the less powerful ones and see if DE are going to buff them up? Oh, but what if everyone else is thinking the same thing? What if the amount of people trying to sell off before DE adjusts anything drives the prices down? RNG'esus preserve us! Think of the Plat, won't somebody think of the Platinum?!

Prospecting on digital currency Futures is such a joyfully arbitrary and pointless function.

Empty words, just like 'we respect people effort and investment' are empty words that dont line up with the reality. Just like 'balanced on popularity' is an old myth that should die (even DE themselves admitted that they dont balance on popularity already, and facually they never did). They let the prices run wild for more than a year on clearly top tier weapons everyone used (ei prime variants that inherent very high dispo from the regular ones) and dont balance anything then suddenly nerf it to the ground - looks like a scam to me. With ZERO respect for player investment of plat and time and effort. They should balance as soon as possible (its not hard, its just math) instead of this bait and switch but they wont. As a result rivens is a dead content because DE can ruin all your investment at any time. Then they pretend to care about some conclave players invested effort? LOL

DE is very inconsistent with their actions, their words dont hold water.  If you'd played the game for any long you'd know it.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Monolake

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Redrum_Wraith said:

I don't PvP in Warframe and I likely never will and I fail to see what is so hard to understand about making PvP rewards come from PvP only. Universal Medallions should NEVER have been tied to Conclave from the start.

 

5 hours ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

I just don't think DE wants to divide the players who actually like playing PvP and earning rewards through competition, and the players that just want Conclave rewards without actually playing it because they wouldn't have the time to get better without being curb-stomped by Conclave pros.

 

4 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Iirc, it was because it wasn't/didn't feel right to let players rank up in conclave without participation in it, aka "we don't want parts of the game to be completely bypassed". 

See, a few months ago I could've perhaps agreed with this, but with the advent of Exploiter and Thumpers, we can already bypass portions of the game: fishing and mining are two minigames with gameplay completely separate from that of the main game, and while they're arguably far more fun and functional than Conclave, they're still not universally popular. In this respect, allowing players to find some alternative means of progressing that involves engaging with those minigames less (i.e. bypassing them) was a godsend to many. Universal Syndicate Medallions themselves can technically allow the player to "bypass" Plains and Vallis bounties, Eidolon hunts, Orb Mothers, and Synthesis target hunting, yet nobody's complaining about that, quite the opposite. Really, the problem here isn't that PvP is this sacred part of the game that needs to be kept safe from PvE, but that we're all mentally framing PvP as this entirely isolated part of the game, almost a completely separate game in itself, instead of acknowledging it as one of the many forms of content Warframe has to offer.

I can sympathize with wanting to fix PvP, and I can agree that Universal Medallions won't do that, but then again: Universal Medallions don't aim to fix PvP. The only way to fix PvP, if it can even be fixed, is going to be to put a lot of work into the mode, and goodness knows when that will happen. In the meantime, the mode still has some exclusive rewards that incentivize players to force themselves through content they hate just to get to them, which ultimately generates more frustration than anything, as it just means more newcomers getting curb-stomped and complaining about it on the forums. In general, trying to make players play a despised mode just by attaching unique rewards to it tends to backfire, because that's when players are at their least happy, and their most likely to focus on the game's negatives, which is never something one would want. To play devil's advocate here, truly Universal Medallions could likely provide some means of relief for Conclave, because it would mean fewer people complaining on the forums about how unfair/unbalanced/poorly-designed the game mode is, as those people would instead be trying to progress through some other means. Universal Medallions aren't exactly easy to farm nor exceptionally rewarding (1k Standing for a 5% Rot C drop is not great, to put it mildly), so it's not like anyone's going to be bypassing Conclave from start to finish unless they really, really hate the mode (though unfortunately many feel that strongly about PvP in Warframe).

 

[Totorochan]

14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

See, a few months ago I could've perhaps agreed with this, but with the advent of Exploiter and Thumpers, we can already bypass portions of the game: fishing and mining are two minigames with gameplay completely separate from that of the main game,

But they aren't completely separate, are they. A year ago, if you didn't want to mine or fish, your progression in Warframe halted. You couldn't build amps, you couldn't kill eidolons, you couldn't access arcanes, you couldn't progress at all. Fishing/mining exclusively rewards you with stuff that isn't used for fishing/mining (unless you still have your old bait blueprints I guess).

We aren't 'mentally framing' PvP as separate, PvP actually is completely isolated from everything else. Mods you can use for PvE can't be used for PvP and visa versa, with almost no exceptions. Warframe abilities don't work the same in conclave, procs are disabled, crits are disabled, staggers are disabled, all weapons have different stats from PvE, etc. And as for rewards?

Through PvP, you can get void relic packs at first level, and at max rank exilus adapters and the excalibur, mag and volt warframes. That's it. And all five of those things can be easily gotten elsewhere, or "bypassed" if you wish. Hek, the exilus blueprint is actually more expensive to buy from Teshin than Simaris!

Everything else in PvP can only be used in PvP, or is a cosmetic.

So really, the only reason for these 'universal medallions' to not apply to conclave is to protect the prestige of the conclave cosmetics. How infuriatingly pointless. Especially because the most coveted cosmetic, the syandana, requires you to do PvP every week to keep it glowing.

[Stormdragon]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

See, a few months ago I could've perhaps agreed with this, but with the advent of Exploiter and Thumpers, we can already bypass portions of the game: fishing and mining are two minigames with gameplay completely separate from that of the main game, and while they're arguably far more fun and functional than Conclave, they're still not universally popular.

Unlike conclave, the things you obtain from those activities bear a role in progression since their resources are needed to craft stuff (modular weapons come to mind, can't exactly remember if other weapons and warframe parts also require them). 

One could also argue that fishing and mining aren't exactly popular since these aren't combat oriented activities in a game where we spend most of our time using space ninja magic and shooting our guns to get rid of enemies, and even tough i can't deny that the fun of any activity in the game is subjective, it's odd to see you claim that conclave is broken without any sort of argument to back up that claim. At least i haven't seen any gamebreaking bug in it, have played enough to have an idea about the state of gear balance and have no issues finding matches, so calling it "broken" sounds more like a buzzword than anything else. It has flaws, it needs some polishment, but that doesn't make it broken.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Universal Syndicate Medallions themselves can technically allow the player to "bypass" Plains and Vallis bounties, Eidolon hunts, Orb Mothers, and Synthesis target hunting, yet nobody's complaining about that, quite the opposite.

You still need to farm for sentient cores to sacrifice in order to rank up the quills, just like you will still need to farm all sort of toroids to rank up Vox Solaris, similar thing with Fortuna requiring Debt Bonds (can be obtained from ticker, but are capped and can require Orb Vallis resources to be bought along always being a possible reward from bounties), and the Ostron requiring resources from the plains to rank up. So as you might see, even with Universal Syndicate Medallions those aren't completely trivialized.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

To play devil's advocate here, truly Universal Medallions could likely provide some means of relief for Conclave, because it would mean fewer people complaining on the forums about how unfair/unbalanced/poorly-designed the game mode is, as those people would instead be trying to progress through some other means.

As pointed by yourself, that would mean less negative feedback because of less people playing it, not because of the mode being improved or the community's stance towards it magically making a 540° spin. 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Universal Medallions aren't exactly easy to farm nor exceptionally rewarding (1k Standing for a 5% Rot C drop is not great, to put it mildly)

Currently yeah, however, this part of the argument dismisses DE's plans to add bigger medallions in the future and perhaps make the smaller ones more common while at it.

1 hour ago, Totorochan said:

We aren't 'mentally framing' PvP as separate, PvP actually is completely isolated from everything else. Mods you can use for PvE can't be used for PvP and visa versa, with almost no exceptions.

To be fair, that's a decision made by DE in order to cater to the requests of PvE players of not making PvP mandatory for progression, which is also the reason why any PvP mod that can be used in PvE has also been made available through PvE (see: conculyst/battalyst drop tables and Mesa's Waltz)

1 hour ago, Totorochan said:

Warframe abilities don't work the same in conclave, procs are disabled, crits are disabled, staggers are disabled, all weapons have different stats from PvE, etc.

Small detail: All warframe abilities work mechanically the same way in both modes, some effects have been tweaked to prevent them from being either overpowered or uselesss.

Same applies to weapons since randomness is removed (status chance is 100%, crit chance is 0%, and crit damage is turned into headshot multiplier) but mechanical stats like recoil, reload, fire rate and spread remain the same as in PvE in order to keep a consistent feel between PvE and PvP for every weapon while damage is tweaked individually by applying a multipler to PvE damage.

[Tsukinoki]

32 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

and have no issues finding matches

Lucky for you.  What region and time of day?

I tried to do conclave recently just to try it out...took 45 minutes to get matched with one other person...who left the lobby very quickly.  I have since decided its not worth even attempting to try to find a region/time situation that would get a match going, too much work to jump regions to find one and then the likely poor connection if I do get  match.

That's one of the bigger issues with PvP...good luck even just trying it due to simply being unable to find a match depending on your region if you're a new player to PvP.

I do agree with you though that medallions shouldn't be used for PvP...even if I just cant play that mode because its impossible to get a match going.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Tsukinoki

[Stormdragon]

24 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Lucky for you.  What region and time of day?

I'm in South America (gmt-4) however, i usually find matches in EU during the afternoon (around 8 hours ago), then it becomes NA time which should be active from this time on until around some 5 hours more when OCE and Asia players start to appear in NA and their own regions too. 

Weekends also tend to get some more activity since weekly tasks reset  really early on fridays.

24 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

That's one of the bigger issues with PvP...good luck even just trying it due to simply being unable to find a match depending on your region if you're a new player to PvP.

Things would be much easier if there was a match finder/server browser to be able to see ongoing matches and jump instead of having to manually browse 4 game modes and 6 regions with an RNG matchmaking system that searches only in one at a time, doesn't let us do anything while waiting for others, and can randomly decide not to let us get in an ongoing match despite it having available slots (i've seen that when trying to join lobbies from my friends list, would have to look if i have some footage of it).

On the bright side, Steve said that there are plans for a PvP server browser

On the dark one, that clip is 3 years old and no further word about it has been said.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Stormdragon

[Velothed]

I'm a bit torn about Medallions, on one hand I think it's cool, that people who like conclave, have some cosmetics for themselves, on the other hand a ton of pve players do grind conclave to get those while absolutely hating their time with it. I can't think of a worse thing in pvp than be matched with a bunch of people who don't even want to be there. I don't know how to re conciliate those two things however, other than changing the conclave to have more appeal for others without alienating those who already like it.

The Hema grind is a whole other thing though. Yesterday someone wrote in a similar topic that people shouldn't complain because he was getting 400 Mutagen samples per 40min survival run with a clanmate. So last night I tried it with Khorra to see if that makes a difference. I got 40 samples in 30 Waves of ODD and 50 samples in 30min ODS! That's 100 samples per hour, with booster and smeeta. That's 50h for the whole weapon. That is insane. I say reduce it to 1000 samples, 10h if you're farming solo is still quite a lot, but managable. I'm so glad I don't have to do it anymore.

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

To be clear, I am not criticizing DE for making any of these changes, I think every change listed here benefited Warframe and its players.

This exactly, I'm done with all of those grinds, I'm complaining so that people who come after me don't have to endure it.

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Unlike conclave, the things you obtain from those activities bear a role in progression since their resources are needed to craft stuff (modular weapons come to mind, can't exactly remember if other weapons and warframe parts also require them). 

Sure, but Conclave also has cosmetics, mods, Captura scenes, etc. that can be found nowhere else, as well as warframe BPs, so there clearly is an element of progression there too. 

5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

One could also argue that fishing and mining aren't exactly popular since these aren't combat oriented activities in a game where we spend most of our time using space ninja magic and shooting our guns to get rid of enemies, and even tough i can't deny that the fun of any activity in the game is subjective, it's odd to see you claim that conclave is broken without any sort of argument to back up that claim. At least i haven't seen any gamebreaking bug in it, have played enough to have an idea about the state of gear balance and have no issues finding matches, so calling it "broken" sounds more like a buzzword than anything else. It has flaws, it needs some polishment, but that doesn't make it broken.

This is all rather interesting for you to say, because at no point have I called Conclave here "broken", or anything similar: your premature obsession with the term on this thread belies your bias towards Conclave, as also noted by your entire post history which almost exclusively revolves around defending Conclave. To be clear, this isn't meant to be a thread about Conclave, and there are plenty more threads that criticize it specifically, but as noted by others even on here, even finding other players to play with isn't a given, which is not generally a sign of a healthy game (or game mode, in this case).

5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

You still need to farm for sentient cores to sacrifice in order to rank up the quills, just like you will still need to farm all sort of toroids to rank up Vox Solaris, similar thing with Fortuna requiring Debt Bonds (can be obtained from ticker, but are capped and can require Orb Vallis resources to be bought along always being a possible reward from bounties), and the Ostron requiring resources from the plains to rank up. So as you might see, even with Universal Syndicate Medallions those aren't completely trivialized.

But as you just pointed out, those can in fact largely be trivialized: buying Debt-Bonds is itself an alternative means of bypassing Debt-Bond farming via Bounties, Ostron resources that can't be found on Thumpers are nonetheless trivially easy to obtain in the process of hunting Thumpers, Sentient cores can be obtained from fighting Vomvalysts and Lua Sentient, and Toroids are now dropped at significant chances by various enemies, including common enemies like Mite Raknoids. Perhaps you might have to play a little bit on the Plains or Vallis to progress through their respective Syndicates, but if you really were set on avoiding them as much as possible, you wouldn't have to do much of them. The fact that Universal Medallions would cover even more ground for Conclave I don't think is actually a negative here, again because there's a much higher cost to making players who hate that mode play it.

5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

As pointed by yourself, that would mean less negative feedback because of less people playing it, not because of the mode being improved or the community's stance towards it magically making a 540° spin.

Exactly, and that I'd say is a good thing, because as you yourself can attest to, the Conclave community appears to be sick and tired of people with little to no experience or appreciation of the mode bashing it from whichever limited playtime they've had out of it. It is perhaps not an ideal situation, but it would likely nonetheless be better for some players to not play Conclave at all, nor complain about it, than for them to be pushed to play the mode, create a terrible experience for themselves and other players, and vent in public discussion.

5 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Currently yeah, however, this part of the argument dismisses DE's plans to add bigger medallions in the future and perhaps make the smaller ones more common while at it.

And this in itself seems to assume we have concrete knowledge about these plans, these bigger medallions, and these higher drop chances, when there is an immense amount of room for these medallions to be developed upon without posing a threat to standard progression: if farming Universal Medallions allowed players to progress at a comparable rate to playing Conclave normally, then I'd absolutely agree that it wouldn't be a good idea, as it would disincentivize Conclave players from playing, but as it stands it doesn't even come close, and is unlikely to unless DE increases the reward rate by a very large multiple. This is, by the way, not a problem exclusive to Conclave; I don't think Universal Medallions should allow players to progress through a Syndicate faster than if they just committed to the Syndicate directly, as that otherwise just risks creating a Universal Medallion meta where that's the only thing people end up farming, to the detriment of everything else.

7 hours ago, Totorochan said:

So really, the only reason for these 'universal medallions' to not apply to conclave is to protect the prestige of the conclave cosmetics. How infuriatingly pointless. Especially because the most coveted cosmetic, the syandana, requires you to do PvP every week to keep it glowing.

Sure, but then that just comes back to the original problem of a minority of players not wanting other players to have what they earned more easily. Prestige is exactly what got cited by those minoritary players when discussing the Hema or Beta weapons: having those weapons by grinding excessively or participating in a one-off event somehow was a mark of being special, and making those items made more broadly available to the general public would thus presumably make them less special. In this respect, Conclave takes this same issue and amps it up to 11, as for a tiny, yet extremely vocal minority of players, being a PvP player in Warframe, especially at Typhoon rank, is this badge of elite skill and superiority over every other player. For all the isolation of the mode and its rewards (which I'd argue aren't as isolated as presented, as per the above), its issues of progression aren't much different from the rest.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Monolake said:

DE is very inconsistent with their actions, their words dont hold water.  If you'd played the game for any long you'd know it.

Hi, I’m Birdframe, formerly known as Thaylien, 2014 player that hasn’t left the game yet, active here on the Forums since mid 2016. Thought I’d introduce myself for a little context.

While not as illustrious a history as a 2013 player like yourself, I don’t typically point it out unless small-minded players decide to try pulling the ‘If you played the game more’ card as if they have some magical superiority over somebody they don’t know.

Regardless of my actual status, disregarding an entire comment because you think I meant something else? That’s a little weird.

As you said, DE is amazingly inconsistent. Except the rare cases when they state that the results are going to be inconsistent. So when they introduced Rivens and said ‘these are all subject to change’, why would you doubt that? It’s literally all they do over time. And when they say that the metric is ‘popularity’ all you have to take from that is that they’re changing ‘because they say so’.

But none of that changes the point of the comment I made, which is this:

Why would you ever think that Rivens were any kind of investment? You bought into (or somebody did) a closed monetary system with no regulation other than the perception of the players. That is literally one of the worst ‘investment’ choices you can make. Nobody actually buys Plat, they pay for the game and DE reward you with intangible, fictional currency.

Rivens are, and always will be, subject to change in addition to the ever-present problem of trying to predict Futures.

And anyone that tries to play for some imaginary long-term market is only ever on a losing trend.

I deride the entire trading system for fictional products, for Rivens, you try to say that it’s just the popularity part.

Have fun with that.

[Stormdragon]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but Conclave also has cosmetics, mods, Captura scenes, etc. that can be found nowhere else, as well as warframe BPs, so there clearly is an element of progression there too. 

The warframes aren't exclusive to PvP since these are the 3 starter frames that are also available through other grinds (Volt is available in dojo, Mag parts drop from The Sergeant and Excalibur's from Lt. Lech Kril). Cosmetics and Captura scenes simply  don't contribute to progression in any way: not having them won't make you less powerful than someone who does have them just like you won't miss out on any mastery. About the mods, most of them can't be used in PvE, and those that can be used in both modes have also been made available through PvE in order to prevent making PvP mandatory. 

Granted, it has a progression system, but not progressing in it won't affect your PvE power which seems to be what most players care about.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is all rather interesting for you to say, because at no point have I called Conclave here "broken", or anything similar: your premature obsession with the term on this thread belies your bias towards Conclave, as also noted by your entire post history which almost exclusively revolves around defending Conclave.

You claimed that it's less functional than fishing/mining. Either way, won't disxuss much about since part of what you meant might have gotten lost in translation (i'm not an english native).

I also don't see the point to start using my post history to make your point since, on one hand i'm sure we've been through that same talk in the past, while on the other i play more PvP than PvE since i like warframe's mechnics but dislike the lack of challenge imposed by PvE, so i'm obviously gonna omit most of the threads talking exclusively about PvE. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

To be clear, this isn't meant to be a thread about Conclave, and there are plenty more threads that criticize it specifically, but as noted by others even on here, even finding other players to play with isn't a given, which is not generally a sign of a healthy game (or game mode, in this case).

This is not a conclave thread, for sure, however, you're still using DE's stance on reducing some other PvE grinds in an attempt to make a point for PvP to be completely bypassed through PvE gameplay. 

The reasons why it might be hard to find players (mainly small playerbase split across too many possible player pools with no reliable way to find which one has people) are besides the point of this post and have been discussed a lot on the relevant feedback subforum.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The fact that Universal Medallions would cover even more ground for Conclave I don't think is actually a negative here, again because there's a much higher cost to making players who hate that mode play it.

To be fair, i wouldn't mind universal medallions working in conclave if it also meant that the game mode gets to see the improvements it needs along becoming more integrated in the game world, its economy and player progession.

But after having Orokin Catalysts and Reactors taken away from conclave rewards due to negative feedback of PvE players despite these being as useful in PvP as in PvE, i see that integration highly unlikely to happen.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And this in itself seems to assume we have concrete knowledge about these plans, these bigger medallions, and these higher drop chances, when there is an immense amount of room for these medallions to be developed upon without posing a threat to standard progression.

Yeah, we don't know, they could pull out an Exploiter orb and make a boss drop Universal Medallions worth 12K standing just like they could leave them in their current state forever after seeing the discussion around them or people stocking them to progress in any faction that gets added in the future. We can only speculate about those plans and that's why i think it's not worth using their current rarity and value as an argument atm.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think Universal Medallions should allow players to progress through a Syndicate faster than if they just committed to the Syndicate directly..

I completely agree with this part, however, i don't like the concept of Universal Medallions.

[Teridax68]

Just now, Stormdragon said:

The warframes aren't exclusive to PvP since these are the 3 starter frames that are also available through other grinds (Volt is available in dojo, Mag parts drop from The Sergeant and Excalibur's from Lt. Lech Kril).

Of course, my point is simply that their existence in Conclave does make Conclave one out of several different available paths towards progression in that respect.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

Cosmetics and Captura scenes simply  don't contribute to progression in any way: not having them won't make you less powerful than someone who does have them just like you won't miss out on any mastery. About the mods, most of them can't be used in PvE, and those that can be used in both modes have also been made available through PvE in order to prevent making PvP mandatory.

Most PvE mods don't contribute to progression either, yet people still grind for them out of completionism, and the same applies to cosmetics, Captura, etc. Arguably, while cosmetics and Captura don't contribute to power progression, they are also important for content creators who want to showcase specific looks or compose specific scenes, which is itself one of the primary ways we get to promote Warframe and get people's attention. Teshin's Refuge is a particularly beautiful Captura scene, too, which makes its difficulty of obtention all the more of a shame.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

Granted, it has a progression system, but not progressing in it won't affect your PvE power which seems to be what most players care about.

I wouldn't say it's the only thing players care about, though, as clearly there is an interest in items that only Conclave currently offers. Part of the issue here is, again, that there is so much disconnect between Conclave and the rest of the game, and so intentionally, whereas there have been increasingly more ways for players to otherwise aim towards the reward they want without forcing themselves to grind through a specific mode, bar a few exceptions.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

You claimed that it's less functional than fishing/mining. Either way, won't disxuss much about since part of what you meant might have gotten lost in translation (i'm not an english native).

That's fine, my point was simply that Conclave has a whole bunch of notable issues that turn many players off, whereas fishing and mining at least seem to deliver on their intended gameplay, even if that gameplay isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

I also don't see the point to start using my post history to make your point since, on one hand i'm sure we've been through that same talk in the past, while on the other i play more PvP than PvE since i like warframe's mechnics but dislike the lack of challenge imposed by PvE, so i'm obviously gonna omit most of the threads talking exclusively about PvE. 

Okay, but this just proves my point.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

This is not a conclave thread, for sure, however, you're still using DE's stance on reducing some other PvE grinds in an attempt to make a point for PvP to be completely bypassed through PvE gameplay. 

But my point here is precisely that the whole PvP/PvE separation here is arbitrary and pointless. At best, it just locks a lot of players out of certain items, and at worst it pushes players who hate Conclave to play it, then have a bad time and complain about it. You could easily create this dichotomy between scanning and non-scanning gameplay with Simaris, who can now also be bypassed completely through Universal Medallions, yet that sort of separation appears ridiculous because few people hate scanning as much as they hate Conclave.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

The reasons why it might be hard to find players (mainly small playerbase split across too many possible player pools with no reliable way to find which one has people) are besides the point of this post and have been discussed a lot on the relevant feedback subforum.

But I don't care why it's hard to find players, that's a matter for another discussion. The fact remains that Conclave is a ghost town relative to the rest of Warframe, and that is an impediment to players who do want to progress through it, which Universal Medallions could at the very least relieve.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

To be fair, i wouldn't mind universal medallions working in conclave if it also meant that the game mode gets to see the improvements it needs along becoming more integrated in the game world, its economy and player progession.

See, I'd like to see a Conclave that were legitimately desirable to most players, and so because of its gameplay rather than its rewards, but then I don't think Universal Medallions get in the way of that: on the contrary, I think they could actually help take some pressure off of Conclave so that its atmosphere becomes more positive (because you wouldn't get as many people complaining about the mode, and instead would keep to a dedicated core of PvP players), and in turn that could also help sharpen feedback for changes made to it. There's no reason to hold a small subset of items hostage until that happens.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

But after having Orokin Catalysts and Reactors taken away from conclave rewards due to negative feedback of PvE players despite these being as useful in PvP as in PvE, i see that integration highly unlikely to happen.

I think that was a stupid decision, and I think after Nightwave there's strictly no reason to not allow PvP players to rapidly gain Forma, potatoes, and other desirable PvP items through Conclave Standing. Again, I'm personally of the opinion that there should be less separation between different parts of the game, not more, and I don't see any harm in letting players access juicy rewards in more than just one way.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

Yeah, we don't know, they could pull out an Exploiter orb and make a boss drop Universal Medallions worth 12K standing just like they could leave them in their current state forever after seeing the discussion around them or people stocking them to progress in any faction that gets added in the future. We can only speculate about those plans and that's why i think it's not worth using their current rarity and value as an argument atm.

On the contrary, I think this is all the more reason to base ourselves off of current values, because there is nothing concrete to be said about future plans. Overnight, DE could divide the Standing gains of Toroids by a thousand if they so wished, or multiply them by a million, and the game's state of constant flux means almost anything can happen, yet that doesn't mean we should be future-proofing our assessment of the current game to an infinite degree.

Just now, Stormdragon said:

I completely agree with this part, however, i don't like the concept of Universal Medallions.

Honestly, neither do I. I think lack of variety of content should be addressed directly at the level of syndicates themselves as needed, rather than papered over via some cover-all currency system. This is also likely going to create problems in the future when DE releases new syndicates, if we can just accumulate lots of Universal Medallions and skip right to the top ranks and all the rewards without actually participating in the associated gameplay. In turn, this raises a further question: when a new syndicate releases, does DE disable progression through Universal Medallions, thereby messing with the item's consistency even further, or do they leave it enabled, thereby letting players bypass gameplay they haven't even tried yet? It's going to create some problems further down the line, but in the meantime, at least there's room for more consistency, in my opinion, since Conclave isn't a new game mode by any means.

[Steel_Rook]

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Their reason? It wouldn't be fair to players who have already gone through the pain of those respective grinding processes.

Wait, do you have a source for that? Because if true, this would be a remarkably stupid stance to take, for all the reasons you've outlined and more. Hobbling progression for the sake of not invalidating people's efforts is tantamount to deliberately not fixing obvious issues because some people had to work around them. Under that mentality, nothing can ever get fixed. This is the sort of fallacy people invoke when they ask for refunds to a 4-year-old game because copies of it were handed out for free, or asking for refunds on cash shop currency because an item's price dropped. I can see some reasons for not making Universal Medallions apply to the Conclave besides this, I can't see a lot of reasons for not reducing the Hema's cost beyond "Just buy it in the Cash Shop already! Not P2W, though!" I don't see how anyone can make that argument with a straight face, because that way lies stagnation and bad design.

[FrostDragoon]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why would you ever think that Rivens were any kind of investment?

While I agree with this sentiment, what I think really bothers people is that there never is any proper "balancing" to Rivens, despite the fact that the disposition system is supposedly toward that end somehow. Then when a huge changed does come, especially the first major pass at Rivens after--What? 2 years or so without change?--the shock is pretty reasonable... or was back then. These days there's really no excuse. We know they are a sham. Enjoy them or don't, it's up to each player. I think they're fun anyway, but they certainly aren't some kind of "investment," which is a word that gets thrown around to try to attribute more legitimacy to an otherwise weak claim.

Edit:
Just in case I'm not clear enough, my primary argument about Rivens is that there should be a sincere attempt at balancing them rather than this ever-shifting goal-post of "popularity" as any kind of meaningful basis for anything ever.

Edited September 19, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[Teridax68]

50 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Wait, do you have a source for that?

I think there were multiple statements at this point, but this is the most immediate example that came to mind. Direct response to an exceptionally salty Conclave player claiming that Universal Medallions are "an insult to the thousands of hours we conclave players have endured" (emphasis mine). Note how even the Conclave player doesn't seem able to pretend that they've enjoyed playing Conclave. Worse yet, behind that martyr complex, there's this incredibly toxic mentality of wanting everyone else to go through the same amount of suffering as they did, just because they had to go through it first, a mentality that is exposed and criticized far more in this thread. Unfortunately, it is a mentality DE seems all too ready to pander to in seemingly arbitrary situations, likely based on whichever vocal minority's shouting the loudest at them on social media.

 

[Stormdragon]

56 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Of course, my point is simply that their existence in Conclave does make Conclave one out of several different available paths towards progression in that respect.

Yet still none of the other frames that can be used in conclave are available from it, making PvE the only way to obtain gear to use in PvP aside from those 3 frames and some weapons available for credits in the market.

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Most PvE mods don't contribute to progression either, yet people still grind for them out of completionism, and the same applies to cosmetics, Captura, etc. Arguably, while cosmetics and Captura don't contribute to power progression, they are also important for content creators who want to showcase specific looks or compose specific scenes, which is itself one of the primary ways we get to promote Warframe and get people's attention. Teshin's Refuge is a particularly beautiful Captura scene, too, which makes its difficulty of obtention all the more of a shame.

Mods and captura scenes can be traded, so anyone willing to get them for completionism have the choice of buying them from someone else if they don't want to grind.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

That's fine, my point was simply that Conclave has a whole bunch of notable issues that turn many players off, whereas fishing and mining at least seem to deliver on their intended gameplay, even if that gameplay isn't everyone's cup of tea.

I won't deny it has its flaws, however, stuff like UM's do nothing to fix them and these flaws should be addressed directly just like the lack of variety of content for syndicates.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

But my point here is precisely that the whole PvP/PvE separation here is arbitrary and pointless.

Well, back when conclave was reworked and turned into a syndicate most PvE players asked for this separation and argued against PvP offering any sort of exclusive meaningful reward while saying that exclusive cosmetics were fine. DE listened, delivered and that decision led us to the current arbitrary and pointless PvP/PvE separation.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

See, I'd like to see a Conclave that were legitimately desirable to most players, and so because of its gameplay rather than its rewards,

That would be bliss, but part of the issue is how a lot of players think of "desirable gameplay" as "removing warframe gameplay from its pvp and turn it into another game" (and that's barring the players who wouldn't touch it no matter what and players who only play as long as there is some loot to obtain, both respectable decisions even if i think differently to them)

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

then I don't think Universal Medallions get in the way of that: on the contrary, I think they could actually help take some pressure off of Conclave so that its atmosphere becomes more positive (because you wouldn't get as many people complaining about the mode, and instead would keep to a dedicated core of PvP players), and in turn that could also help sharpen feedback for changes made to it.

Not sure about that since back in the days there used to be a more positive atmosphere towards conclave: Reb and Megan would play it on Prime Time sometimes, and it also wasn't rare to see someone with a [DE] tag join the lobby, all of it after the conclave rework that made it a syndicate and added the skins as rewards. 

There has also been a lot of feedback on how to improve conclave, not only in terms of balance but also providing ways to make it more accessible to casual players and reduce the grind for its rewards; DE doing nothing with that feedback is another issue.

On a sidenote, as long as PvE remains mandatory to get gear to use in PvP, making grow the dedicated core of PvP players will be an uphill battle against the game itself.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I think that was a stupid decision, and I think after Nightwave there's strictly no reason to not allow PvP players to rapidly gain Forma, potatoes, and other desirable PvP items through Conclave Standing. Again, I'm personally of the opinion that there should be less separation between different parts of the game, not more, and I don't see any harm in letting players access juicy rewards in more than just one way.

Good to see we agree on that one, i'd like to have better integration too and see no reason to "at least" not to offer a PvP alternative way to progress in nightwave challenges (something along the lines of "Kill profit taker OR do [X] thing in PvP" would be fine but this is beside the point)

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

On the contrary, I think this is all the more reason to base ourselves off of current values, because there is nothing concrete to be said about future plans. Overnight, DE could divide the Standing gains of Toroids by a thousand if they so wished, or multiply them by a million, and the game's state of constant flux means almost anything can happen, yet that doesn't mean we should be future-proofing our assessment of the current game to an infinite degree.

Well, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree and move on with this part of the argument.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Honestly, neither do I. I think lack of variety of content should be addressed directly at the level of syndicates themselves as needed, rather than papered over via some cover-all currency system. In turn, this raises a further question: when a new syndicate releases, does DE disable progression through Universal Medallions, thereby messing with the item's consistency even further, or do they leave it enabled, thereby letting players bypass gameplay they haven't even tried yet?

Couldn't have explained any better, and i'm sure i've mentioned something similar to the issue with future factions even tough it might have been on a different thread.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

at least there's room for more consistency, in my opinion, since Conclave isn't a new game mode by any means.

Yeah, however i think it would be neat if that consistency came hand in hand with some of the QoL features long requested to improve conclave dor everyone willing to play it no matter the motivations. No need to "feature-creep" anything like they did with the ability to play the Shawzin, let alone for a magical hotfix that adresses absolutely everything after all.

[Teridax68]

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Yet still none of the other frames that can be used in conclave are available from it, making PvE the only way to obtain gear to use in PvP aside from those 3 frames and some weapons available for credits in the market.

Okay, and? Is anyone here against letting players obtain more frames and weapons through PvP?

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Mods and captura scenes can be traded, so anyone willing to get them for completionism have the choice of buying them from someone else if they don't want to grind.

But that still requires someone else to grind Conclave for them, so the issue remains the same, and the cosmetics themselves cannot be traded either.

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

I won't deny it has its flaws, however, stuff like UM's do nothing to fix them and these flaws should be addressed directly just like the lack of variety of content for syndicates.

And once again, UMs do not aim to fix Conclave to begin with. UMs will have at worst a neutral impact on Conclave, and that's fine.

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Well, back when conclave was reworked and turned into a syndicate most PvE players asked for this separation and argued against PvP offering any sort of exclusive meaningful reward while saying that exclusive cosmetics were fine. DE listened, delivered and that decision led us to the current arbitrary and pointless PvP/PvE separation.

Sure, and now's the time to reverse it, because it makes no sense to create this new currency that exists to bridge the gap between syndicates, and then prevent it from applying to the syndicate with the biggest gap relative to the rest. 

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

That would be bliss, but part of the issue is how a lot of players think of "desirable gameplay" as "removing warframe gameplay from its pvp and turn it into another game" (and that's barring the players who wouldn't touch it no matter what and players who only play as long as there is some loot to obtain, both respectable decisions even if i think differently to them)

It is in fact quite possible that no version of PvP may be desirable in Warframe to most players, but again, whether or not that is the case is not the subject of discussion here.

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Not sure about that since back in the days there used to be a more positive atmosphere towards conclave: Reb and Megan would play it on Prime Time sometimes, and it also wasn't rare to see someone with a [DE] tag join the lobby, all of it after the conclave rework that made it a syndicate and added the skins as rewards. 

I'm not talking about the time immediately after Conclave got reworked, I'm talking about the entire time since then, when most players have ended up openly despising Conclave, and where the near-totality of newer players who do try the mode end up getting such a bad first experience that they immediately go to the forums to complain. It doesn't take many trips to the Conclave subforum to see that there's a distinct group of players who don't like Conclave and haven't played much of it, and another group of players who do play a lot of Conclave, who enjoy the mode, and who are tired of having to deal with the complainers.

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

There has also been a lot of feedback on how to improve conclave, not only in terms of balance but also providing ways to make it more accessible to casual players and reduce the grind for its rewards; DE doing nothing with that feedback is another issue.

I completely agree.

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

On a sidenote, as long as PvE remains mandatory to get gear to use in PvP, making grow the dedicated core of PvP players will be an uphill battle against the game itself.

I wouldn't perhaps frame it that way, but I can agree that so long as Conclave doesn't give players the proper tools they need on its own merits, it's going to feel all the more defective to most players. I see no reason why we shouldn't be bridging that gap.

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Good to see we agree on that one, i'd like to have better integration too and see no reason to "at least" not to offer a PvP alternative way to progress in nightwave challenges (something along the lines of "Kill profit taker OR do [X] thing in PvP" would be fine but this is beside the point)

A simple solution could be to have the PvP shop offer evergreen Nightwave credits: that way, Nightwave wouldn't even need a change to its challenges, but Conclave players could still have a stab at the rewards, especially now that DE's made a point of letting players farm Nightwave standing beyond just the challenges.

13 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Yeah, however i think it would be neat if that consistency came hand in hand with some of the QoL features long requested to improve conclave dor everyone willing to play it no matter the motivations. No need to "feature-creep" anything like they did with the ability to play the Shawzin, let alone for a magical hotfix that adresses absolutely everything after all.

Agreed completely, Conclave needs a lot of help and has been ignored for far too long. My point here is simply that the two components being discussed here, i.e. truly Universal Medallions and fixing Conclave, are independent of each other, and could occur in any order. Thus, while the ideal would definitely be to do both, and so likely at the same time in a manner that would significantly boost Conclave visibility and QoL, if that doesn't pan out there's still room for smaller changes either way.

[DoomFruit]

2 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

Yet still none of the other frames that can be used in conclave are available from it, making PvE the only way to obtain gear to use in PvP aside from those 3 frames and some weapons available for credits in the market.

This game started life as a pure PvE shooter and remains that way. Its whole appeal came from there, it's part of why I got stuck into it so much. If this game were PvP from the very start, I wouldn't have even looked at it. PvP does not need further integration. It was added as an afterthought for some people to play with, never had that much popularity even at its peak (raids were more popular) and judging by this thread is a complete ghost town right now. I'm fine with that. We've got enough broken systems in this game already, we do not need further attention diverted from them towards a wildly unpopular game mode.

With that in mind, I'm quite happy with universal medallions not working on PvP.

The Hema, on the other hand, was pure bullS#&$ right from the very beginning.