Incoming Riven disposition update in October 1st/2nd

[Otobai]

6 hours ago, 40PE said:

Ok so if you two think they will Boost a new weapon's riven... because you like it and probably a lot of people love it...

Doesn't that give you a feeling that probably a lot of people using it right now?

Do you understand that riven disposition usually moves up or down based on the usage of a weapon?

Someone also said that they got an internal ranking system too based on usage and weapon strength... and my experience after one forma in the weapon that it is not weak at all, nor mediocre, rather strong.

If anything, it will be lowered, not raised.

The AKSOMATI is over four years old you think that qualifies as a new weapon?

[Methanoid]

23 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Yay I can't wait to see the good rivens (which I didn't trade for) I have get nerfed again...

Continual nerfing of the only decent rivens I have in my collection is basically putting me off even bothering with rivens, which in turn means I have no reason to farm kuva etc...

except they arent nerfs, they are well explained balance mechanics which were stated from the very start, you cant "nerf" something when you are upfront told riven stats will change periodically.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Methanoid said:

except they arent nerfs, they are well explained balance mechanics which were stated from the very start, you cant "nerf" something when you are upfront told riven stats will change periodically.

I don't follow your logic here. If someone tells me they are going to stab me next month, and they stab me, it doesn't suddenly not mean a knife attack just because I had been previously informed of it.

Stat boosts are buffs.

Stat cuts are nerfs.

Both are part of balancing, but they have their own names based on the practical outcome of their implementation so you can tell right away if something now has +2 or -2 and if balancing affected the weapon in a positive or a negative way when compared to its previous stats.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Jarriaga

[LSG501]

56 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

except they arent nerfs, they are well explained balance mechanics which were stated from the very start, you cant "nerf" something when you are upfront told riven stats will change periodically.

Actually rivens at the start were poorly thought out and designed by DE, they balanced weapons primarily around popularity rather than the proper way they should have balanced which is performance (performance 'parity' was also how rivens were sold to us by DE).  At the very release of rivens many of us (I know I did) said that basing stats around 'popularity' was bad but DE just ignored us. 

They then basically ignored rivens and then came back and then went about adjusting things, again based on popularity or because 'they felt it was too strong'.... now they're finally getting round to doing it again, supposedly using a baseline and in most cases there has been a far higher rate of nerfing the stats than bringing things up to the 'higher levels' so either their baseline is too low or they're once again nerfing things.  .  

Now if DE had designed rivens correctly in the first place, ie based around performance, we wouldn't even be needing these periodic changes so yes a negative change is a nerf, in fact any change that causes the stats or performance of an item to be lower is by definition a nerf....

[Jarriaga]

8 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually rivens at the start were poorly thought out and designed by DE, they balanced weapons primarily around popularity rather than the proper way they should have balanced which is performance (performance 'parity' was also how rivens were sold to us by DE).  At the very release of rivens many of us (I know I did) said that basing stats around 'popularity' was bad but DE just ignored us. 

They then basically ignored rivens and then came back and then went about adjusting things, again based on popularity or because 'they felt it was too strong'.... now they're finally getting round to doing it again, supposedly using a baseline and in most cases there has been a far higher rate of nerfing the stats than bringing things up to the 'higher levels' so either their baseline is too low or they're once again nerfing things.  .  

Now if DE had designed rivens correctly in the first place, ie based around performance, we wouldn't even be needing these periodic changes so yes a negative change is a nerf, in fact any change that causes the stats or performance of an item to be lower is by definition a nerf....

I agree it took long, but it's nice to see them tacking this on in a regular basis now. Better late than never.

I think the system itself could further benefit by adding more disposition limits. For example, weapons with absolute minimum disposition should no longer generate Rivens at all because the stats are so low they compete with regular mods and just pollute Riven drop tables. On the other hands, weapons like the Tetra are still terrible even at current max disposition, so the maximum disposition itself should be expanded to account for extreme cases like that one, because the current limit doesn't cut it.

Once Rivens are balanced in such a way a Tetra can compete with a Tigris Prime, weapon usage will shift towards preference as they would all be within the same ballpark.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Methanoid]

8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't follow your logic here. If someone tells me they are going to stab me next month, and they stab me, it doesn't suddenly not mean a knife attack just because I had been previously informed of it.

Stat boosts are buffs.

Stat cuts are nerfs.

Both are part of balancing, but they have their own names based on the practical outcome of their implementation so you can tell right away if something now has +2 or -2 and if balancing affected the weapon in a positive or a negative way when compared to its previous stats.

they arent nerfed because by that very same system they could magically get back what they temporarily lost, its all driven by whats in use or popular, it should be pretty obvious to most the majority of changes made just by seeing what you and your teammates are packing, im more amazed the ignis wraith hasnt been "nerfed" never mind any rivens for it.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

they arent nerfed because by that very same system they could magically get back what they temporarily lost, its all driven by whats in use or popular, it should be pretty obvious to most the majority of changes made just by seeing what you and your teammates are packing, im more amazed the ignis wraith hasnt been "nerfed" never mind any rivens for it.

So if something is nerfed for just 3 months, it does not count as a nerf? By that logic nothing can be nerfed unless it's done permanently even if you can measurably say that something went from 8 to 5, which is a smaller number.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Methanoid]

9 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually rivens at the start were poorly thought out and designed by DE, they balanced weapons primarily around popularity rather than the proper way they should have balanced which is performance (performance 'parity' was also how rivens were sold to us by DE).  At the very release of rivens many of us (I know I did) said that basing stats around 'popularity' was bad but DE just ignored us. 

They then basically ignored rivens and then came back and then went about adjusting things, again based on popularity or because 'they felt it was too strong'.... now they're finally getting round to doing it again, supposedly using a baseline and in most cases there has been a far higher rate of nerfing the stats than bringing things up to the 'higher levels' so either their baseline is too low or they're once again nerfing things.  .  

Now if DE had designed rivens correctly in the first place, ie based around performance, we wouldn't even be needing these periodic changes so yes a negative change is a nerf, in fact any change that causes the stats or performance of an item to be lower is by definition a nerf....

Imho something "similar" the riven system should have applied to all mods, with mods keeping their normal static stat(s) and small bonus ones given (like rivens) on top of the normal one, do looooong endless missions and have a very small chance for a normal mod drop to be a modified/mutated mod or even better ones the longer you play, most long standing players like min/max'ing their setups so I would probably play the heck out of that for potential mods with bonus's i like.

[Methanoid]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

So if something is nerfed for just 3 months, it does not count as a nerf? By that logic nothing can be nerfed unless it's done permanently even if you can measurably say that something went from 8 to 5, which is a smaller number.

depends how you think of it, typical "nerfs" tend to be long term, as in actual weapon/frame nerfs/changes, these are targeted due to actually being overpowered or underpowered and a fix kicks into place, but rivens by nature will just bounce up as well as down regardless of the rivens own stats, its all dependent on the weapons they are attached too.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

depends how you think of it, typical "nerfs" tend to be long term, as in actual weapon/frame nerfs/changes, these are targeted due to actually being overpowered or underpowered and a fix kicks into place, but rivens by nature will just bounce up as well as down regardless of the rivens own stats, its all dependent on the weapons they are attached too.

I don't think long term or short term is a qualification for the definition because I am unable to see the future. That's like saying I can't say an apartment complex is under construction because I can't call it an apartment complex until after it's been fully built. That is not practical.

If I can right now compare stats and determine that they are lower, they are a nerf irrespective of how long that lasts. If the stats are higher, that's a buff irrespective of how long it lasts. The changes may be reserved at any time, and the new adjustment will be once again measured to see where they fall when compared to previous updates.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Methanoid]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

I don't think long term or short term because I am unable to see the future. If I can right now compare stats and they are lower, they are a nerf irrespective of how long that lasts. If the stats are higher, that's a buff irrespective of how long it lasts. The changes may be reserved at any time, and the new adjustment will be once again measured to see where it falls when compared to previous updates.

then its just a case of, if people think they are being specifically targeted and get angry vs people who know its a normal thing to expect.  Technically any post about rivens getting any change, good or bad is redundant given we know its going to happen periodically, tho to be fair i tend to see more complaints from people who have (imho) wasted a sizeable quantity of plat to buy the latest and greatest riven for the current fotm weapons.

[LSG501]

22 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

Imho something "similar" the riven system should have applied to all mods, with mods keeping their normal static stat(s) and small bonus ones given (like rivens) on top of the normal one, do looooong endless missions and have a very small chance for a normal mod drop to be a modified/mutated mod or even better ones the longer you play, most long standing players like min/max'ing their setups so I would probably play the heck out of that for potential mods with bonus's i like.

No, normal mods are 'normal' because they don't have any gimmicks ... the original intent of rivens was to basically bring 'non meta' to a similar level as 'meta' weapons.  Sadly because DE went about the original rivens in a poorly thought out way we didn't get that, we got the system we have now. 

In all honesty I'd have preferred rivens to basically be clower to what we have in amalgam mods with their set buffs per weapon.  By not having variable numbers in the rivens we wouldn't have the riven capacity issue either (another thing DE didn't think about outside of oooh we can sell slots for plat). 

Mind you I still wouldn't say no to some 'normal' dual element mods (ie corrosive, radiation etc) on a single card, with a reduced overall percentage of course. 

[Methanoid]

33 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

No, normal mods are 'normal' because they don't have any gimmicks ... the original intent of rivens was to basically bring 'non meta' to a similar level as 'meta' weapons.  Sadly because DE went about the original rivens in a poorly thought out way we didn't get that, we got the system we have now. 

In all honesty I'd have preferred rivens to basically be clower to what we have in amalgam mods with their set buffs per weapon.  By not having variable numbers in the rivens we wouldn't have the riven capacity issue either (another thing DE didn't think about outside of oooh we can sell slots for plat). 

Mind you I still wouldn't say no to some 'normal' dual element mods (ie corrosive, radiation etc) on a single card, with a reduced overall percentage of course. 

without something automated mods wise it just means we will remain where we are now, a handful of mods appear in an update, all get quickly farmed then you have no new mods to get.  what i suggested is ofc no magic fix, but something similar is needed to make endless missions (the best endgame we have and always have had) a useful repeatable thing, at least until they do something major with clans and alliances.

[LSG501]

13 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

without something automated mods wise it just means we will remain where we are now, a handful of mods appear in an update, all get quickly farmed then you have no new mods to get.  what i suggested is ofc no magic fix, but something similar is needed to make endless missions (the best endgame we have and always have had) a useful repeatable thing, at least until they do something major with clans and alliances.

Not really, you don't need to completely change riven acquisition to change the way rivens work.... you can keep the rng drop approach of what weapon and how often you get them from sorties etc.  Just have fixed stats (either fully or on each stat depending on approach) which are pre-balanced for the weapon they're being applied to.. no need for 'regular' nerfing etc. 

Your idea is kind of a bit weird.. if all I'm getting is a slightly buffed mod which I have no real need for on anything other than 'end game' as a reward then doesn't this kind of defeat the point of them being rewards for end game... the mods you suggest have are basically stronger versions of existing mods which then in turn makes endgame easier (with that weapon), that seems rather counter productive imo. 

[CaptainBAMF]

I certainly understand the side of the argument of certain weapons being too op with a riven and needing a tweak.

I however also see the other side of the coin, people grinding for tens or hundreds of hours over a year to get kuva to roll into their favorite weapons, only to see a nerf that would making rolling that riven now a waste. Hopefully DE realizes a lot of rage is probably coming from peoples time being flushed rather then just being mad their weapon got nerfed.  Weapon balancing happens all the time in games, but usually their is some form of compensation or partial refund of kuva when it does change.

TLDR = weapon balancing would probably be seen a lot less negatively if we got a portion of kuva spent back proportional to the rivens disposition change. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by CaptainBAMF
A word

[Otobai]

Imagine having an emotional response to riven disposition nerfs.

[RunningChaos]

I just hope they give older weapons the buff they need. The low disposition of the Akstiletto, Soma, Orthos and many more is a joke. Newer, stronger weapons have better dispositions.

[Hypernaut1]

Am I the only one who barely notices disposition changes? My lanka, gram, rubico rivens still rock... It's not like I'll be taking them off anytime soon. 

[tzadquiel]

17 hours ago, LSG501 said:

No, normal mods are 'normal' because they don't have any gimmicks ... the original intent of rivens was to basically bring 'non meta' to a similar level as 'meta' weapons.  Sadly because DE went about the original rivens in a poorly thought out way we didn't get that, we got the system we have now. 

In all honesty I'd have preferred rivens to basically be clower to what we have in amalgam mods with their set buffs per weapon.  By not having variable numbers in the rivens we wouldn't have the riven capacity issue either (another thing DE didn't think about outside of oooh we can sell slots for plat). 

Mind you I still wouldn't say no to some 'normal' dual element mods (ie corrosive, radiation etc) on a single card, with a reduced overall percentage of course. 

you seem to be dwelling in the past a lot, because you can grip it by something that was done poorly. its boring to read, especially when it spans across more than 2 or 3 posts. 

Riven mechanic is healthy in my opinion - it is the players who spend a lot of money on rivens  that can feel the bitter taste of dispo change. 
And what you are describing further is the classic 'wanna sell the cake but want to keep the cake' bullS#&$. 

[FlyingDice]

17 hours ago, Methanoid said:

Imho something "similar" the riven system should have applied to all mods, with mods keeping their normal static stat(s) and small bonus ones given (like rivens) on top of the normal one, do looooong endless missions and have a very small chance for a normal mod drop to be a modified/mutated mod or even better ones the longer you play, most long standing players like min/max'ing their setups so I would probably play the heck out of that for potential mods with bonus's i like.

The last thing we need is more power creep. Stop catering to the "muh power fantasy" crowd.

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, FlyingDice said:

The last thing we need is more power creep. Stop catering to the "muh power fantasy" crowd.

Personally, I would disagree there, I would say the 'last thing' we need would be more consumables or pay to win type mechanics ala games like Runscape for example. What many folk call "power creep" is standard progression deals.

[BlackVortex]

On 2019-09-18 at 7:02 PM, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

After a certain point rivens provide the only meaningful thing in the game to grind for for a very large number of players.  Kuva survival is the biggest time sink the game has.  Rolling rivens is usually crushingly dissapointing and yet huge numbers put themselves through it because they feel there's nothing else left for them to do.

And considering a player having rivens on their weapons makes absolutely no difference to you or your gameplay your comment shows what an entitled little snowflake you are that you're looking forward with glee to your fellow players being hit with even more disappointment. 

You don't like rivens, fine, ignore them, don't use them.  Slavering at the prospect of fellow players feeling genuine disappointment at their best rivens being nerfed that maybe cost them dozens of hours grinding kuva?   That's toxic af. 

my thoughts exactly, although I like Rivens and understand the nature of the Rivensystem, lets be honest, DE introduced this as another way to make money:
- buying up to 120 riven slots @ 1800pl
- people buying boosters to get more Kuva out of it (the only reason I ever buy boosters is for Kuva)
- people buying platinum to get expensive Rivens

and that's all just fine, but the whole idea of less popular weapons being used is kind of stupid.
who in their right minds is going to take an Amphis, Kraken or a Harpak into endgame content?

aside from all of that, I do find people who gloat over other people's suffering in a game like Warframe a clear example of people who have a screw loose in their heads
in a competitive game there's still the excuse of competition, but in a game like Warframe(where it's mainly about co-op rather than competition) it clearly shows an anti-social stance and lack of morals.

[Hypernaut1]

15 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

my thoughts exactly, although I like Rivens and understand the nature of the Rivensystem, lets be honest, DE introduced this as another way to make money:
- buying up to 120 riven slots @ 1800pl
- people buying boosters to get more Kuva out of it (the only reason I ever buy boosters is for Kuva)
- people buying platinum to get expensive Rivens

and that's all just fine, but the whole idea of less popular weapons being used is kind of stupid.
who in their right minds is going to take an Amphis, Kraken or a Harpak into endgame content?

aside from all of that, I do find people who gloat over other people's suffering in a game like Warframe a clear example of people who have a screw loose in their heads
in a competitive game there's still the excuse of competition, but in a game like Warframe(where it's mainly about co-op rather than competition) it clearly shows an anti-social stance and lack of morals.

I want to know who has ever bought platinum to buy an expensive riven. 

Are there really people out there that but 2-3k plat to go buy some meta Riven they don't need? 

For a system that DE created "to make money" they sure make it hard to spend money directly on them. They are fairly common, you can't buy kuva, and they actively reduce stats on popular rivens, Economy is completely player driven. 

[LSG501]

3 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

you seem to be dwelling in the past a lot, because you can grip it by something that was done poorly. its boring to read, especially when it spans across more than 2 or 3 posts. 

Riven mechanic is healthy in my opinion - it is the players who spend a lot of money on rivens  that can feel the bitter taste of dispo change. 
And what you are describing further is the classic 'wanna sell the cake but want to keep the cake' bullS#&$. 

How am I dwelling in the past... I'm posting in a topic about rivens which have in all honesty had issues since day 1 but then I'm not going to trying to white knight for DE so obviously my opinion is 'dwelling in the past'.... 

[Methanoid]

4 hours ago, FlyingDice said:

The last thing we need is more power creep. Stop catering to the "muh power fantasy" crowd.

i did say "something like", either way, regardless of opinions a system of whatever kind is still needed to encourage and reward repeated play at higher levels which we currently do not have, the 1 i mentioned is simply a lazy and easier method to implement, given DE's now massive backlog on Soon(tm) additions/expansions then nothing suitable will be appearing any time quickly.