Incoming Riven disposition update in October 1st/2nd

[BlackVortex]

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Are there really people out there that but 2-3k plat to go buy some meta Riven they don't need? 

Yes

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

For a system that DE created "to make money" they sure make it hard to spend money directly on them.

No they don't make it hard, they make smart use of the player driven market and Kuva was a fairly limited resource, since its an RNG system, rerolling is a gambling sink and people will buy boosters for them
the fact you don't see this means they are very successful making a profit out of it without the majority of players noticing, I'd like to mention this is their good right and a smart move on their end
 

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

They are fairly common, you can't buy kuva, and they actively reduce stats on popular rivens, Economy is completely player driven. 

DE is known to release overpowered new weapons that get nerfed later on after the big sale wave is over.

the fact they release a primed version of a weapon(which is ALWAYS more powerful than it's non-prime counterpart) and with its release do not lower disposition on it is a pretty clear indication they want to push sales before nerfing said riven

[Hypernaut1]

3 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

Yes

No they don't make it hard, they make smart use of the player driven market and Kuva was a fairly limited resource, since its an RNG system, rerolling is a gambling sink and people will buy boosters for them
the fact you don't see this means they are very successful making a profit out of it without the majority of players noticing, I'd like to mention this is their good right and a smart move on their end
 

DE is known to release overpowered new weapons that get nerfed later on after the big sale wave is over.

the fact they release a primed version of a weapon(which is ALWAYS more powerful than it's non-prime counterpart) and with its release do not lower disposition on it is a pretty clear indication they want to push sales before nerfing said riven

Those scheming devs! 🙄

[Caliboom]

I would prefer that rivens were completely removed to be honest, they ruined the game and the economy.

[(PSN)Midcall]

Am 18.9.2019 um 17:33 schrieb VotumPrime:

Oh man the riven market is going to be so pissed lol.

Holy crap! They nerfed Rubico and Catchmoon rivens into the ground! LOL

On the resource double weekend i grinded out 450k cuva. I spent it all on 2 catchmoon riven i really liked. One of those riven has numbers like this now: +90% damage. , 50% multishot, 30% fire rate. For this values i would never have spent that much time for farming cuva. Now i know it doesnt matter which weapon i use, DE will adjust them earlier or later , depending on use (who cares what weapon ppl use? if everyone would use catchmoon and ppl like it, why not let them ? Its not a pvp game) I never farmed cuva again from that point. And since riven and cuva was my  only endgame thing as maxxed mr27 for long time i have nothing left to do. Got back into Destiny 2 which i enjoy a lot.  I would be happy if there would be any sort of endgame or something i enjoy where i know my time is not wasted (like it is with cuva farming)

[(PSN)Midcall]

Am 18.9.2019 um 18:03 schrieb 844448:

Reason I don't use riven mods, they're pretty volatile and it's not like the weapons are very weak if you don't put a riven on them

of course they re not weak.  u dont need in 99% of the game rivens. but let me tell u as mr27 with all weapons, its boring af to make build. its like 6 mods are usually already standard, damage, multishot, cc + cd, 2 elemental. 2 spots for "something". riven give u the possibility to make a bit more room for testing stuff and enojoy weapon

[844448]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Midcall said:

of course they re not weak.  u dont need in 99% of the game rivens. but let me tell u as mr27 with all weapons, its boring af to make build. its like 6 mods are usually already standard, damage, multishot, cc + cd, 2 elemental. 2 spots for "something". riven give u the possibility to make a bit more room for testing stuff and enojoy weapon

MR doesn't mean anything other than you've leveled up everything which is unnecessary to bring into the conversation because you can be MR 27 and still being useless (Many are like this)

[Cloverskull]

I gotta say goodbue to my Opticor riven since DE wont stop handing out the Vandals like candy on haloween.

[Kerberos-3]

Oh, Riven nerf? Hold on, I need my food. Where did I put that industrial sized bowl of salt-free poutine?

[BlackVortex]

13 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Those scheming devs! 🙄

 

17 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

I'd like to mention this is their good right and a smart move on their end

 

[Tiltskillet]

21 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

the fact they release a primed version of a weapon(which is ALWAYS more powerful than it's non-prime counterpart) and with its release do not lower disposition on it is a pretty clear indication they want to push sales before nerfing said riven

Well, Stradavar says hi.

That aside though, I think it's somewhat understandable.  There is a case for taking time to evaluate  actual performance and effect on popularity in game.  Otherwise the nerf is preemptive.

But honestly, if I were a Dev, I'd just have a hard time releasing an exciting new prime!...and an _{anti-exciting disposition nerf} simultaneously.  

The real problem to me is that all versions of a weapon are locked to the same disposition in the first place.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[Graavarg]

I didn't believe DE when they stated (some time back) that the disposition system should actually be implemented. But it has been, consistently, and rivens are slowly starting to work more as intended. I respect DE for this, since the amount of salt and crying is humongous.

It is quite simple, rivens were intended to make two things possible: improving the stats of less used weapons (increasing their usage) and adding "flavour" to weapons (adding and increasing features). Rivens were never intended to make the strongest weapons in the game even stronger. Still, that is what actually happens, as rivens add a percentage and the same percentage added to an already high value yields an even greater increase than when added to a lower value (basic math). The only way to balance this is by adding the disposition system, correcting the added percentage upwards or downwards. DE chose to change the disposition based on usage, instead of a mathematical damage calculation, obviously trusting that a huge amount of Tennos would be a better indicator than a formula.

However, by not applying disposition changes consistently and often, rivens ran away from DE and became the ultimate addition to the already most powerful meta-weapons in the game. This in turn inflated prices to ridiculous levels and at the same time created a dark subset of the trading system, where the main goal was to increase plat (not actually playing the game). Getting rivens (from sorties) became a way to "make plat" instead of a generating an interest to try a weapon (again) by getting a riven for it. Hopefully the re-implemented disposition-based re-leveling will continue, and doing so it will also hopefully break the back of the high-end "riven market" simply by making it even more totally insane to pay thousands of plat for a riven (that WILL get nerfed).

What I fail to understand is how anyone could fail to understand that the weapons they continue to use is being hit with successive disposition changes (nerfs). After all, that is exactly the stated intention of the disposition system. As the usage of an overly used weapon levels off, so will the nerfs. If the weapon gets even lesser use, disposition will start increasing. The only two anomalies to the system is that new weapons start at 1.0, regardless of how good or bad they are (their usage will influence disposition changes over time), and that primed weapons start at the disposition level for their un-primed version. Since primed weapons are better, this makes them good candidates for becoming overly powerful with rivens, which will make them much used in game play, which in turn will drive the disposition downwards. Go figure why players are willing to pay exorbitant sums for rivens for new or newly primed weapons, especially if the weapons are good, since upcoming nerfs are basically written on the wall (with huge letters).

Finally, rivens are not actually needed for anything, game-wise. They exist to make less used weapons viable and to add more flavour to the game. It is somehow amazing that a disposition change that lowers the extra powercreep level for some already op weapons by some percentage points can generate so much crying and salt, especially since the system has been described for years and the upcoming change is nothing new under the sun. It is highly improbable that the weapons become "useless"...

Edited September 21, 2019 by Graavarg

[-Kittens-]

On 2019-09-18 at 9:39 AM, VotumPrime said:

Don’t rely on rivens and just go with the most OP weapons.

Except the point of rivens is to fix that thing you just said. Your meta smells bad and should feel bad.

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, -Kittens- said:

Except the point of rivens is to fix that thing you just said. Your meta smells bad and should feel bad.

Rivens can't really "fix" that as implemented.  They could do so, but I think it would require some pretty deep changes.  And it runs the risk of a lot more power creep or making rivens closer to a mandatory system.

The best fix doesn't involve rivens at all--it's for DE to get better at balancing.  Which is so easy to say from here in the cheap seats, but it's the truth.

[Vortuna]

On 2019-09-21 at 1:29 AM, BlackVortex said:

Yes

No they don't make it hard, they make smart use of the player driven market and Kuva was a fairly limited resource, since its an RNG system, rerolling is a gambling sink and people will buy boosters for them
the fact you don't see this means they are very successful making a profit out of it without the majority of players noticing, I'd like to mention this is their good right and a smart move on their end
 

DE is known to release overpowered new weapons that get nerfed later on after the big sale wave is over.

the fact they release a primed version of a weapon(which is ALWAYS more powerful than it's non-prime counterpart) and with its release do not lower disposition on it is a pretty clear indication they want to push sales before nerfing said riven

Bait and Switch that's called, but for stradavar prime to be nerfed right on its first day of release doesn't sound like it.

[MisterHooks]

I'm so looking forward to Tekko prime and Tekko Rivens.

It's going to be a magical day when the Tekko disposition is made better and the Tekko Prime's crit is higher than the base version.

[Qwyteck]

I like the way everyone says dispo changes are fair and all, based on OPness

and suddenly

Viper gets hit 

Several times in a row

[-Kittens-]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Rivens can't really "fix" that as implemented.  They could do so, but I think it would require some pretty deep changes.  And it runs the risk of a lot more power creep or making rivens closer to a mandatory system.

The best fix doesn't involve rivens at all--it's for DE to get better at balancing.  Which is so easy to say from here in the cheap seats, but it's the truth.

riven are mandatory on over half the available content.

[BlackVortex]

6 hours ago, Vortuna said:

Bait and Switch that's called, but for stradavar prime to be nerfed right on its first day of release doesn't sound like it.

did the Stradavar Prime get nerfed on the same day of it's release?
I never saw, heard or read about this. proof?

[(PSN)Deeceem]

Well, my plat is on Fulmin Riven buyers being the most angry ones this time around.

[Sahansral]

Am 20.9.2019 um 23:42 schrieb Caliboom:

I would prefer that rivens were completely removed to be honest, they ruined the game and the economy.

Agreed. When I first heard about them, I thought that rivens would allow weak weapons to be competetive with meta weapons and that I could build rivens with the exact properties I want. The more time invested the better the riven would get. NO RNG involved....

How naive of me, I know.

The current riven mechanics are not very well thought out. Combined with zaws and broken akolyth mods the game is complete bonkers at the moment. A DPS rat race which reduces choice instead of embracing the vast options in the game.

It's depressing.

[Frenotx]

6 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

riven are mandatory on over half the available content.

How do you figure?

[Qwyteck]

2 часа назад, Sahansral сказал:

The current riven mechanics are not very well thought out. Combined with zaws and broken akolyth mods the game is complete bonkers at the moment. A DPS rat race which reduces choice instead of embracing the vast options in the game.

Yes-yes, and broken ass nuke frames not broken at all, it's just a playstyle of choice.

The truth is the main problem with rivens is not in their powercreep at all.

[-Kittens-]

On 2019-09-22 at 3:46 AM, Frenotx said:

How do you figure?

Umm, playing the game and using a crapton of weapons, many of which are borderline obsolete WITH rivens?. Acrid? Sonicor? Embolist? Fists, Sparring, Scythes that aren't zaws? Throwing weapons that aren't corrosive Despair or bleed Fusilai?

 

The fundamental problem is this. Rivens are gambling. Literally. "Instead" (do notice the quotations) of money, you're playing and literally paying potentially for luck and time. Scott's on air, in his voice explanation are/were that rivens are so powerful they can rebalance bad weapons and even change design paradigms by themselves. Except they're random and grind based.

 

What this "economy" does is favor either the literally rich or the lucky. DE knows this, anyone with an ounce of common sense knows this, and the concerns about rivens started as soon as riven for things like the Kohm and Soma appeared. Remember the soma prime? The gun so absurd that untouchable new let's see what happens rivens actually got a balance pass way back when? Yeah. 

Rivens have had issues since inception. Those issues still exist. Those issues exist even though four years ago Scott stated "we have to stop using mods to fix Warframe's balance problems, it's not a habit that promotes longevity [sic]" Well, almost five years later we are using mods to still fix problems. And now, we're making balance passes on rivens designed to avoid having to make balance passes on weapons.

 

Don't get me wrong; the theory is sound; for an investment in gameplay and effort-time, the player can take a loved weapon from an earlier paradigm and balance model and "renew" it to compete with current weapons designed to keep players invested in the game despite the incredibly wide and shallow grind by letting them drive the enemies before them and the lamentation of the women. Great, right?

Except wait, the Brakk no one ever uses is still pretty iffy after two balance passes, while the prisma twin gremlins still clear eidolon/profit taker enemies in a solo run without a riven. much less with one that guarantees both 100% status and orange crits and hey have punch through for your troubles as well. Or about this? The weapon the brakk was the literal antithesis of, the detron now has a version, that will do about the same damage as Drakgoon or Boar Prime.

Part of that now almost six year old imbalance is A there is no brakk wraith or prisma to align with, and B the Mara has the same potential as the vanilla detron, hence the ability to rip off the armor of level 200 gunner in one to two shots and then almost kill them out right with the next. Considering how hard the brakk is to get and when you're supposed to get it, this is pants as a hat nuts. Simply is. No sense. Nonsense. Also the brakk is supposed to be a grineer siege weapon of literal mass destruction, a hand held metal storm. (google it) Just one example.

Instead of yet another new set of themed weapons and mysteriously completely virgin riven to go with, maybe it's time to take both a very hard look at why there is no level 200 content (remember when orokin derelicts were scary? yeah that was five years ago) to use that Detron riven on, why rivens are needed at all, and if having a prime + riven carrying an upgrade mentality actually even benefits the game at all.

The part C to our little conundrum that circles back to A is pretty simple, actually. Making games easy does not make them accessible. It, in fact, does the opposite. This has been objectively, actively shown from Dead Space to Street Fighter to The Witcher. Easy games don't last except to kill time between other, more engaging activities. Warframe has been heading very very quickly down this path for about year, and it's not likely to end well. It's not even the power creep. It's power creep versus enemies and designs that are not keeping up in any other manner other than Fortuna's NO NO NO YOU CAN'T ANYTHING INCLUDING STAND UP, which is pretty obviously being actively avoided by a very large chunk of the player base.

 

To not go down this path:

WF needs to become difficult again, and not in the fortuna "we'll just make everything you do in game not work, YAY BALANCE" way either, which is an equally bad sign.

Rivens need to have a LEGIT reason to exist. Extended stat ranges and updated values thereof is actually a pretty good idea, except it's essentially a loot box right now. You can't get the riven you want, and you can't then tailor that riven to the stats you need to "equalize" it against whatever the flavor of the month™ is in a fair as possible (within reason) manner.

Weapons need to be balanced AGAINST themselves, much less the rivens they can carry. Each "style" of weapon needs to have a version capable of tackling this new harder version of WF and still retain it's identity and uniqueness. With Zaws and Kitguns, the final answer is Catchmoon and Polearm, with a try hard of the millenium mention going to the Maiming Atterax, and that's not a satisfactory answer to anyone actually invested in the game's unique approach to weapon and combat design. It's also not a very good answer to variety or player investment.

Rivens need to synergize with their weapons, and maybe not in a MOAR NUMBERS fashion, and players need to build a Riven that doesn't rely on LITERAL GAMBLING and ACTUAL MONEY to achieve payers satisfaction, because one look at the Trading Post and Riven.Market says absolutely that they do, oh boy do they; I'm in there myself.

If DE thinks they are going to continue to avoid scrutiny currently engaging the rest of the industry because you don't "have" to spend "money" to get the kind of riven you'd like (except you totally, totally do), I think next year is going to be very interesting, and not necessarily in a positive manner.

They don't have to make it easy. It could cost 35K kuva to lock a stat type, and the you'd still have to roll at +-3500 a pop to get the actual numbers you want, and the next stat you lock would cost double that and even the same for locking a negative. Long term goals to fight newly harder enemies and gambling all in one package, if the money derived from it is so crucial to DE's survival, and if rich people don't want to grind kuva, well the solution to that is already quite out there in trade chat, innit. 

This is all dancing around the truth that actual money should never be the answer to game balance. Ever.

There are solutions that benefit both dev and players out there and I can tell you the current system is long term untenable.

Edited September 24, 2019 by -Kittens-

[Tiltskillet]

20 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

did the Stradavar Prime get nerfed on the same day of it's release?
I never saw, heard or read about this. proof?

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1078777-equinox-prime-hotfix-2458-24581/

 

[Tiltskillet]

16 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Umm, playing the game and using a crapton of weapons, many of which are borderline obsolete WITH rivens?. Acrid? Staticor? Embolist? Fists, Sparring, Scythes that aren't zaws? Throwing weapons that aren't corrosive Despair or bleed Fusilai?

 

Ah, that kind of content.  I was thinking of it in the sense of "stuff to do" rather than "stuff to play with".  There's not really a true night and day distinction there, and your point is totally valid.