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[DE]Danielle

Arbitrations Revisited: Hotfix 25.7.6

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27 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

So, math.  Let's do a bit.  

Rotation rewards are now A,A,B,B,C,C,C,C...

The easiest way to express this is a per 2 rotations old to two new rotations.  

 

Old:

A: 36.5% chance of 1300 endo.  This averages out to 474.5 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 237.25 endo per round.

B: 48% chance of 1600 endo.  This averages out to 768 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 384 endo per round.

C : 47.5% chance of 2000 endo.  This averages out to 950 endo for two rounds.  Alternatively, each round would average to 475 endo per round.

New:

A: 40% chance of 900 endo.  This averages out to 360 endo per rounds.

B: 39.5% chance of 1200 endo.  This averages out to 474 endo per round.

C : 29.5% chance of 1500 endo.  This averages out to 442.5 endo per round.

 

This means the endo farm is better on round A and B (on average).  It also means that the longer you play the worse the endo rewards get.  What it doesn't factor in is the Sculptures, but I'm not going to include them.  They require you then go out and farm up a bunch of stars to get the full value, so they're just a false value proposition.

 

What about the feeling?  That's a touch more interesting.  Your reward possibilities are where the RNG nature of rewards becomes an issue.  There's a rather interesting bit of this math that people don't often take into account, and that's that averages (as calculated above) don't represent a single run but a functionally huge number of them.  When you get one arbitration per hour, and spread out enough runs to be statistically significant, you'll suddenly be less optimistic.  Before there was a 36.5% chance of endo and a corresponding 63.5% chance of not getting endo.  This means that the likelihood of getting no endo in a 6 round run was 63.5*52*52.5 or 17.3% chance of not getting endo.  Now you've got a 60*60*60.5*60.5*70.5*70.5 or 6.5% chance of getting no endo.

Mathematically then, 30 minutes in the old arbitration generates less endo on average (1096.25 vs. 1276.5).  The older rewards structure offers a greater chance on getting no endo directly as a reward (17.3% versus 6.5%).  The new mode only cannibalized the endo rewards (except 0.5% for the aura forma on A round), and is now adding vitus essence and auras/arcanes.

 

Despite all of the math adding up, what still makes me hate this change?

1-3% drop rates for game modes meant to be "the ultimate challenge."  The "end game" rewards are auras and arcanes that are meh at best, because their usage windows even at full upgrade are limited.  The auras are also trash, because they either mimic mods that already exist, or are positive negatives that mean nothing when Corrosive Projection exists and is the only way to deal with the armor scaling insanity that arbitrations highlight painfully.

Let's strip out the new auras and arcanes.  Each new arcane can cost 5 vitus essence and the auras can cost 20.  That's 20 for an aura that is likely to be not entirely positive and 20+ endo for an aura.  Plow all 20-30% drop percentages that you freed up into two unit Vitus essence drops (10%) and the rest into rolling guard, vigorous swap, adaptation, and the ephemera.  Call it Arbitrations 2.1, and consider it a complete success.  There's plenty of reason to keep playing, the rewards are great, and we get to decide when the stuff is earned rather than pray to RNGesus.

 

This is Eidolons all over again, with a slightly different artificial timer.  Instead of 45 minutes every few hours you've got once an hour and even worse drop percentage chances.  After several hundred runs, I still don't have 10 copies of each arcane (barrier, energize, aegis, and another escape me despite having about 60 healings).  You don't get a happier fan base by extending play with crappy RNG mechanics, and you definitely don't get players willing to spend money.  Can you please just not ruin another game mode with crap RNG?  Every freaking time you get something that might be fun the last step ruins it.  Sabot Rounds (1 after about 120 Profit-Taker deaths), Lato and Braton Vandals (still looking for Lato parts 100+ full rounds, A-A-B-C, in), and Adaptation/Rolling Guard buried behind crap drop rates which require cheese because your health/armor mechanics are terrifyingly bad.

 

 

The equation you are looking for is an S-curve, not a logarithmic function.  S-Curves start with minimal reaction, reach a window where they have a large response, and then plateau.  This is what armor should do, so that the early game is more forgiving, as you gain power enemies gain power too, and that as you plateau your enemies can plateau slightly beyond what you are to remain a challenge.  

But what about the few levels where certain low level enemies would suddenly be amazing?  Simply start the higher level enemies up the scale.  But what about everything being better than the player?  The heavies are better than the player, but the standard enemies get to be less than the player and compensate with numbers (think Dynasty Warriors).  What about the bosses?  Mechanics trump stats.  Give them the health and armor of a heavy, but extra mechanics.  Think Lech Krill, the sisters from the sabatoges in the void, or even the Razorback.

Once you fix the broken scaling, change the rewards from some crappy RNG to earned, and start listening to feedback instead of collecting multiple forum pages and doing nothing with it until a year later (read: the rewards for arbitration sucked and everyone provided that feedback, but only now are we doing things in September 2019 after an October 2018 launch) we'll be happier.  Right now, you're functionally mirroring Bungie.  How exactly did Anthem turn out again....oh yeah...what a thunderous failure......Can you maybe not do that?  Maybe not say you are listening and then demonstrate you either aren't or don't care.

 

How's that Chinese backlash going?  Maybe it's time to speak with us rather than at us.  Maybe it's time to drop the thread of this being a personal attack, and listen to what the players want.  Here's a clue, if they say rewards and content now maybe they're actually asking for something to do.  Maybe instead of the words, you understand the sentiment that the Nightwave failed to give us appreciable dailies, and that content is too sparse.  Maybe, just maybe, you start by fixing crap rewards based on RNG to be based upon using consistent rewards to get good rewards we choose, and having the RNG require less than 100 runs for 25% of your player base to ever see.

We don't want you to give us stuff, we want to have things that we want to earn.  If you don't understand that, and we're a vocal minority, then please continue.  The easiest way to not want to play Warframe is to play it and discover the flaws baked into the core.  My friends list is tribute to that.  

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26 minutes ago, Cephalon_Pestilence said:

Bit of a counter point. Sometimes right, you just die. Ive been Revenant with 10 skins left, and all of a sudden I'm dead. Or any warframe with Quick Thinking, suddenly dead. If you dont want to revive them. Dont revive them. Simple. 

It's not as simple as that. If it was, then I couldn't care less about revives, and I'm sure a lot wouldn't care anymore.

The problem with revive is that we are actively punished by other players who died. We get hit by revive burden, being given index-like debuff. The true problem is that you either get rid of these thing by collecting 5 and reviving this idiot who died in wave one, or you die and left. The problem is that because of the dead player, you get handicapped. And there is only one way to get rid of a burden if you accidentally grab it, it's to grab 5 and Rez him. While most players there DON'T want to revive the players who died. So the revive mechanic ( or more precisely the revive burden tokens ) are actively harming the overall experience by weakening us.

Again, if you could drop them manually, or manually chose to pick them up ( which would be the best ) it wouldn't be that much of a problem anymore, and some may even want to take the risk, now that it wouldn't be forced on us anymore.

Edited by mikakor
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After all the feedback the message is simple: Players want use their precious time (collect vitus essence) to get what they want (arbitration shop). Not use/waste their time in HOPE to get what they want. Whole game is around getting "loot boxes" that automatically opens on each rotation. Feels like wasting time more than using time.

Imagine that after a month of work it's your payday. Instead of getting what you want - payment, the boss gives you dices. The number of dots you get will indicate reward you get. Yes, you will work to roll the dice. Would you work in that company? Hell no.

Edited by Sebith
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1 hour ago, Rogunz said:

 

The problem with your calculations is excavation.

They only reduced the timer by 40 seconds so a full cycle for an excavator went from 240 seconds to 200.

And yet it's still by far the most rewarding mode with rotations around half the length of survival.

This really isn't a buff to Endo farming if the slowest arbitration mode is only slightly better while the most rewarding mode was made significantly worse.

 

I'd argue that if you stay any reasonable length of time, defense generally ended up slower than survival, though I haven't checked the numbers, excavation probably did indeed get worse, but I suspect all the others got better, (Maybe not disruption.)

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Dear DE,

I think Phorid need new tileset, Phorid looks so bored with Grineer Asteroids 🙃

Thank you.

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The arcanes should be in the vitus exchange not in the drop tables and I cant say Im a fan of the AABBC change with the upscale of vitus costs and the arcanes in the drop tables with more AABB rotations even with shorter times spent per rotation seems like a change that changes nothing or dare I say makes it a bit worse and the drop chane of vitus from the drones is gonna be the same as a rare resource like orokin cells and thats not the best

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10 hours ago, -TSA-warramssie said:

You can lie too ? - seems to me you cant or you didnt try hard enough . cause this is not a lie, this is actually the truth about the conclave as is the truth about Endo and a 6 year old playerbase. You have no clue what are you are talking about or what an overkill of accumulated resources are. We have millions of endo, a billion of credits and thousands of vaulted relics. I can feel the envy , but truth hurts so they say.

I'm MR27, have been playing for about 2 years (account is older as I tried in like 2015-2016 and hated WF back then). I still need endo. 

 

But hey, you have fun with the new arcane that get's out paced by a bronze mod. 

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3 часа назад, master_of_destiny сказал:

Right now, you're functionally mirroring Bungie.  How exactly did Anthem turn out again....oh yeah...what a thunderous failure...

I'm all in favor of your post and wish I could upvote more than once... But if you'll allow me a small correction. Anthem was Bioware's thing. Bungie is making Destiny. Not like it matters much.

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It's like every time we make one step forward we make two steps back. Or like some kind of a monkey's paw.

The only thing I was thinking while playing Arbies - I unlocked them not so long ago, but already got tired of mechanics - "Man, wouldn't it be better if the time for rewards was the same as in usual modes?"

DE grants my wish and just kills the only reason to play arbies by nerfing the amount of endo and chances of drop. OK, I get it. At some point I would just get all the endo I need and would have maxed all the mods, that would make me play arbies less. But right now - I don't want to touch it at all. Because, you know, it should be and might be fixed in the future - because it goes the same all the time. Something is unrepairably broken and then it gets fixed. And after that all the guys who wasted their time on unfun gameplay start to whine why developers fixed something.

I feel like this game rewards not playing it more and more.

Edited by BloodRavenCap

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17 minutes ago, Darth_Predator said:

I'm all in favor of your post and wish I could upvote more than once... But if you'll allow me a small correction. Anthem was Bioware's thing. Bungie is making Destiny. Not like it matters much.

I am a moron.  You are correct, and the change has been made.  

 

Thank you for catching that.

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I haven't been playing for that long to see the apparent issues you've pointed out. But from my simpler perspective, I can see that they've added some meme mods as rotation drops, which is quite unfortunate, but halved the waves required for the rewards, which I am very happy about, because to me, that made arbs into playable missions, that don't get painfully boring before the first reward and actually have enough players to form a full squad every time.
I can appreciate that.

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I get the impression that arbitrations wasnt planned out clearly when it was 1st implemented. 

It felt lazy just double all timer,and a few other stuff. Hardest code most likely the cosmetic and mods. It feels like a quick fix for content while DE was focusing on Fortuna to keep the players happy because by then we had months of almost nothing.

And now were stuck with the mess and DE trying to fix it. This is already the 3de version of the loot tables and the mode numerus changed including visual since no-one tested the drones visual because some players couldn't see them and i think it had to be changed 2 times.

Players already hated the some of the mod in the loot table as well as the ephemera since they are bad drop after getting the 1st. What does DE do add more to the drop table that players hated that played it for its loot(endo).I get it you want us to play the mode for the rewards. keep the mod in table if need be but remove the arcanes and put them in the shop farming 10 of each will take way to long especially since not all of them drop on c and they are split between rotations the ones on c will by far be the cheapest ones after a few months. 

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On 2019-09-18 at 4:13 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Arbitrations Revisited: Hotfix 25.7.6

New Arbitration Rewards:

  • New Aura Mods:
    • Aerodynamic: 6 seconds added to Aim Glide/Wall Latch time, decreases damage taken while Airborne by 24%*
    • Swift Momentum: 30% faster Charge Attack speed, 6 seconds added to  Melee Combo time*
    • Shepherd: Increases Companion Armor by 180 and Companion Health by 300*
    • Combat Discipline: Allies gain 20 Health when they make a kill, but the aura bearer loses 10 Health when the bearer makes a kill.*
    • Melee Guidance: Reduces Melee Combo timer on Self by 6 seconds, increases Melee Combo timer for Allies by 12 seconds*
  • New Arcanes:
    • Arcane Primary Charger: On Melee Kill: 20% chance that Primary Weapon damage is increased by 200% for 8 seconds*
    • Arcane Blade Charger:  On Primary Weapon Kill: 20% chance that Melee damage is increased by 200% for 8 seconds*
    • Arcane Pistoleer: On Pistol Headshot Kill: 30% chance to gain 100% ammo efficiency for 4 seconds*
    • Arcane Bodyguard: On Six Melee Kills Within 30 seconds: Heal companion by 600*
    • Arcane Tanker: On Heavy Weapon Summon: Gain 1200 armor for 16 seconds*

WTF is all this crap doing here? Not a single good shyt that not a single tenno would want. DE plz

Suggestion: make it either drop from drones and/or vitus trade

Edited by kuryux
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On 2019-09-18 at 9:13 PM, [DE]Danielle said:
  • New Aura Mods:
    • Aerodynamic: 6 seconds added to Aim Glide/Wall Latch time, decreases damage taken while Airborne by 24%*
    • Swift Momentum: 30% faster Charge Attack speed, 6 seconds added to  Melee Combo time*
    • Shepherd: Increases Companion Armor by 180 and Companion Health by 300*
    • Combat Discipline: Allies gain 20 Health when they make a kill, but the aura bearer loses 10 Health when the bearer makes a kill.*
    • Melee Guidance: Reduces Melee Combo timer on Self by 6 seconds, increases Melee Combo timer for Allies by 12 seconds*

 

why would this be Aura mods..!??

I would never tinker this for a corrosive projection or other aura mods..

i would have thought it better mods if these would have been exilus mods.

 

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solo extract is bugged in survivals (at least in arbitrations) any player extracting will now drag the whole team out of the mission like it used to

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2 hours ago, kuryux said:

WTF is all this crap doing here? Not a single good shyt that not a single tenno would want. DE plz

Suggestion: make it either drop from drones and/or vitus trade

I disagree. The auras are all interesting.

Arcanes affecting melee and primary damage are pretty sweet but the duration is kind of low unless you stack with weapon swap speed.

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2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Arcanes affecting melee and primary damage are pretty sweet but the duration is kind of low unless you stack with weapon swap speed.

not sure how that matters since you can literally go back to the previous weapon you were using just by aiming.....the whole reason they are doing melee 3.0 (even if they are taking for-freaking-ever on it)

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On 2019-09-19 at 7:13 AM, Anthraxicus said:

Considering how much garbage is taking up the loot tables now (worthless Auras mods and Arcanes), Endo should've been increased by 75%, not reduced to 75%.

 

I said this before I actually saw the drop tables.

Also 75%*2 equals 1.5x because technically it's double the rotations, but yeah hurray for useless stuff.

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Any chance we could get a fix for Vauban Prime's coattails and Mesa Prime's Regulators not properly applying skins?

Edited by Brachion

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So...even less incentive to play this gamemode, ok...

On 2019-09-18 at 8:13 PM, Peter said:

So you decided to ignore the whole feedback? Good luck lol

Yeah, nothing new lol, but hey they are TOO BUSY making another boring/slow/pointless grind but in actual space.

(If you don't know what I am talking about, i'm talking about Empyreon)

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On 2019-09-19 at 2:27 AM, Xerachiel said:

Remove the revives.
Also stop try to make ALL game modes accessible to new players.
You are forcing all players who has not much to do to leave, because you keep dumbing game modes to include new players while removing any bit of challenge the experience players are looking for.....

New players should NOT have access to EVERYTHING! They should have game mods to aim at and get better for! 

^this

On 2019-09-19 at 4:12 AM, DisKorruptd said:

why would you want to remove the ability to revive teammates?

Because players bring badly modded or squishy warframes to Arbitration, and they keep dying, thinking no worries, others can revive me.
Resurgence burdens RIP the health from warframes that carry them and i don't want to help players who are not willing to help themselves and improve their builds so they don't keep dying.  I had to work at my builds so i would be able to survive Arbitration, and then DE decided to make revives possible.
Yes, more players can now do Arbitration but that doesn't mean they are ready for it.

On 2019-09-19 at 8:43 AM, SW___ said:

Remove Arbi revives = end of arbitration

IMO Arbitration will get better when revives are removed from it
or we can drop resurgence burdens when they are picked up instead of ONLY being able to get rid of them when 5 are taken to downed player.

19 hours ago, Cephalon_Pestilence said:

Bit of a counter point. Sometimes right, you just die. Ive been Revenant with 10 skins left, and all of a sudden I'm dead. Or any warframe with Quick Thinking, suddenly dead. If you dont want to revive them. Dont revive them. Simple. 

"Dont revive them. Simple. "
Which would be fine but for not being able to drop resurgence burdens.

On 2019-09-18 at 8:13 PM, -AxHx-Vile said:

Remove Arbi revives please.

Yeah, remove Arbitration revives please or LET PLAYERS DROP RESURGENCE BURDENS when they are picked up by accident.

Now that Drones have a small chance to drop Vitus Essence, can see more squishy warframes will be playing Arbitration expecting to be revived every time they die and they are going to keep dying. This change does nothing but promote leeching.
No thanks. I don't mind working with other players in the mission but that's co-op, its not supporting someone that's unprepared for Arbitration.

I don't mind the drones, what i do mind is the resurgence burdens we can't drop unless its to revive a player.
Bring back no revives for Arbitration.

Also DE stop try to make ALL game modes accessible to new (and relatively new) players. (Someone else also mentioned this)
Don't dumb game modes to include new players while removing any bit of challenge the experience players are looking for.....

New players should NOT have access to EVERYTHING! They should have game modes to aim at and get better prepared for! 
I had to work on my builds to be able to survive Arbitration or I died in 2nd rotation, and next thing DE make revives possible in Arbitration.
Arbitration as it was first introduced with no revives meant players had the challenge to step up to.
That's now gone.
In its place is now the 'need' for going to other side of map, when someone dies, avoiding killing drones because of resurgence burdens we can't drop if they are picked up.
Players who die in Arbitration are taxing on players who don't die.
Bringing back no revives in Arbitration would still allow players who can't survive more than one rotation access to Vitus Essence, but they will only get one per hour unless and until they work on their builds.
Those who don't survive Arbitration 1st rotation would also then have something to aim for with improving their builds. becoming better players.

Looks like will be soloing Arbitration from now on, IF i keep doing Arbitration.
Way to go on keeping players in group activities.

(and yes i do realise i repeat myself here - its a small failing of mine)

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"All changes are potentially subject to later changes based on feedback, so try out a few mission types and tell us your thoughts!"
The drop tables one was the first thing that the people told you to change for very good reasons, and instead put those things in the shop. Kinda useless to ask for feedback before the update and proceed to totally ignore it.

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13 minutes ago, Twisted_Wisdom said:

IMO Arbitration will get better when revives are removed from it
or we can drop resurgence burdens when they are picked up instead of ONLY being able to get rid of them when 5 are taken to downed player.

I see where you are coming from, but give me just a second to argue a slightly different point.

 

Burdens do suck, because they introduce a penalty to the other players.  The arbitrations by nature quadruple stacking the penalty.  Spawns are faster, drones make enemies invincible, and the enemy scaling means that you're rapidly capable of being one-shot by things into only the 3rd or fourth reward period.  Instead of quadruple stacking, let's just go back to triple stacking with a brief penalty for being revived.  Maybe something similar to the penalty for dying as an operator?

This offers us a penalty for death, that doesn't make it unreasonably for everybody else to resurrect.  It does, on the other hand, still let people who walk into arbitrations expecting a carry die.

 

Regarding the arbitrations as a challenge....I have my doubts.  It's largely a gear check, for gear available as a very rare drop from arbitrations (rolling guard and adaptation).  It's only challenging in that you have to cheese it to keep going because the BS enemy scaling used by the game makes fair play impossible.  When a stray rocket from a bombard can one shot you through full health and shields it's pretty BS to be doing a defense where enemies literally bum-rush you from all sides at once.  This is what shield gating would fix, but apparently the "test" with Hildryn is being analyzed by the one monkey with a calculator at DE.  In the event you missed the joke there, this is a bad referential joke to the monkeys with type writers recreating the works of Shakespear given enough time. 

 

I guess, in short, I get where you are coming from but disagree about the solutions.  Arbitrations already require 100% of the star chart to unlock, so it isn't exactly a newbie activity (remember, Lua is locked behind the Second Dream and the fortress is also locked).  Likewise, I've had to revive well equipped players because of a BS spawn or magic bullet/grenade that appeared from out of view and had no clues beyond instant death.  This isn't therefore a situation where revives are bad, but the penalty being to lose a player, have debuffs on a second, and all the other penalties is complete garbage.  It's why people hate the system, because halving (or more) a team because of bad mechanics and paying for it five times (the team member carrying the burden is skipped in the initial statement under the auspices of removing it) isn't a challenge so much as concentrated bovine fecal matter.  

Hopefully that verbal stretch made light of the issue.  DE most definitely doesn't seem to be paying attention, or at least dismissing descent as personal hatred and saltiness.  My contention is that if I were salty I'd suggest half of what I see on the in-game chat.  I come here to discuss how the game can be fixed, to then be ignored, and a year later have found some quick suggestions implemented as DE's 100% original solution to a problem they created.  Read: Universal Vacuum.  Read: Rivens (before the constant nerfs).  Read: improvements to the organic pet system.  These are the things that get discussed here, and DE "listens" to and implements years later.

 

Remember when organic pets were garbage?  Remember when prime garbage clogged our inventories?  Remember when dark sectors actually brought content to the game because clans lost their crap over controlling them?  This tenno remembers, and he's not forgotten that suggesting these in a friendly manner was ignored.  This tenno even remembers that it took royally pissed players to get a universal vacuum that wasn't nerfed to uselessness, and that even after than fetch didn't come for years (still waiting on the Kubrow collar to make it back into unvaultings).

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