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How do you players want the DEsigners to change their minds?


(PS4)Dishinshoryuken

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Good day and good times to all 

I came from playing a Emmisary Survival to reading a few topics that have in them that the "designers will not change their mind/do what the players want/keep doing the same thing." Now, I have played vids for a freakin long time and I gotta say that DE does more for changes, updates, and looking at what players suggest more than ANY other game company whose games I have played.

So what do you players want DEsigners to change their minds about? What should they do from their side that sees the number of players as a way to keep making the game and keeping the rent paid for the company and for the employees? What grand ideas have we that makes all feel welcome, enticed to keep playing, and gives DE some claim to listen to the players?

Curious.....thanx

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I believe the current thing is about how DE quickly changed their stance on the Universal Medallions affecting Conclave. There are some long standing things that some players, at least the ones i've bumped into in game, are just...bad grinds. Such as the Hema Mutagen Samples, Vauban Prime Oxium costs, and how DE's response to not correcting these mistakes is "we don't want to devalue progress players already made". Sure, there are *some* that would be upset, but i've ran into a lot in game that...or well everyone except like...two people, well they just don't care, they just want new players, new clans, to not have to suffer the grind for it. Though this is more about the Hema than Vauban prime.

The current issue, near as I gathered, was One person on twitter(again, this is what i've heard from like...everyone i've spoken to) complained/ranted/raved about the medallion thing and thus DE changed it. Because of one player screaming.

So, on this subject of "What do I want the DEsigners to change their minds about?", I want them to be willing to say "Hey, we #*!%ed up, this grind is a bit too much, so we are going to reduce it and refund people what they spent on it." Which they *have* shown they are *very willing* to do in the past. And yet for some of the more extreme examples of grinds(Such as Hema) they say "Nah, we don't wanna because it would 'invalidate other people's efforts'."

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54 minutes ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

Now, I have played vids for a freakin long time and I gotta say that DE does more for changes, updates, and looking at what players suggest more than ANY other game company whose games I have played.

This is irrelevant. DE can make as many changes as they like, but if they don’t do exactly what someone wants then “they are bad”.

55 minutes ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

What grand ideas have we that makes all feel welcome, enticed to keep playing, and gives DE some claim to listen to the players?

Why do all have to feel welcome? If I ask for high level endgame content, but make it MR0 player viable, what do I get? 

 

I agree with the above person. Sometimes DE really just needs to say “sorry, we made a mistake” and revert/fix and issue. Hema is a good example, because it was stated to be a typo. The high cost was mentioned quickly, but DE did nothing.

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In general players are actually fairly split on what the game needs, and DE senses that and becomes hesitant on changing their antiquated systems.  Some examples are:

  • Rivens
  • Universal Medallians
  • Damage 3.0
  • Melee 3.0
  • Overpowered Frames/Weaponry/Etc
  • Enemy scaling
  • Challenging content
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It's their game. At the end of the day, they are making a game, and we choose to play. It's their creative endeavor. We are here because they as developers created a game they wanted to make, not cater to mass consensus. 

There's no such thing as a great game designed by community. It takes a steadfast vision. If it were up to the community, WF would devolve into something painfully generic and boring.

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To be honest, everyone who complains about that are mostly spoiled and even snowflaky. Not all of course, but a LOT are. Here's why:

1) You can look at the huge fix list after every update to tell DE listens to issues. There can be upwards of over 50 fixes easily. The more complex the issue, the longer it takes but they do work on the issues people post about. Often though, people whine about a non fix when it's one they've identified and assume they're being ignored..

2) Content comes monthly and quarterly but when players say "no content" or "content drought", they're falsely applying that to the TYPE of content they want...which leads to...

3) Most complainers are either kids that want everything instantly or hardcore players that seem to forget that 2000 hours spent playing one game for 5 hours a day is 400 STRAIGHT DAYS! Sustainable content for them is impossible and especially for a game not meant to be super difficult. The vet thing is as dumb as it gets. They want more but more is not a snap of the finger. And since more isn't now, they publicly bash the company and hide their immaturity with phrases like "white knight", "avocados". They have a poor understanding that large content = more time invested. 

4) Endgame content is already in the game so there's a false narrative spreading. DE understands that that by making the content too difficult would result in pleasing the minority but upsetting the majority, hence the different levels of disruption. Disruption is endgame content with multiple levels of difficulty (depending on node). Lastly, data shows a low count of tridolan and orb fight wins that contradict the messages from the forums which means DE knows that many commentors are 100% lying. 

5) Youtubers are doing a great job of being disgruntled sources of information to a "game they love". Newcomers and casuals are coming to the belief that DE is some sort of bad company that somehow is failing...although they only went to the channel for advice and education.

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Lastly, data shows a low count of tridolan and orb fight wins that contradict the messages from the forums which means DE knows that many commentors are 100% lying. 

Do you have any source of this? If you mean rough numbers, well, that's probable considering many players already have everything from them and don't need to run them.

17 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Content comes monthly and quarterly but when players say "no content" or "content drought", they're falsely applying that to the TYPE of content they want...which leads to...

Well, most people looks for big updates, not a single Warframe and a couple of weapons that's usually underwhelming (excluding wisp). For me nightwave is the only thing that made me play, didn't even login since I reached rank 30

20 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

You can look at the huge fix list after every update to tell DE listens to issues.

I don't think the small fixes are the issues people blame DE for not listening. We usually refer to something more important

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

hardcore players that seem to forget that 2000 hours spent playing one game for 5 hours a day is 400 STRAIGHT DAYS!

No it's not... I want to think this is over exaggeration. I got 243d 10h 33m played, (mission hours, not steam) which is 5843 hours in total. Your math is a wee bit off.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

players say "no content" or "content drought",

This I think largely comes from the YouTube community that says there's a "content drought" and it just sounds like a good like minded word that spreads easily from loose lips and empty minds. Maybe that's insulting but you know what the saying is...

I'm not complaining about your post just so you're aware Gen-son, just adding some additional thought(s).

I believe Tridolon wins are done much more heavily on PC than console from what you said. I got several friends with 4k to 5k captures, and not even mentioning how many kills on each Eidolon. I've even been shown a few others that have 10k captures on Hydrolyst alone. Recruiting chat is always filled with Tridolon messages 10 minutes ahead, leading up to the actual night.

31 minutes ago, Zekkii said:

Rivens

I think the biggest issue with Rivens, aren't Rivens themselves, but the huge need of a kuva gain rate revisit. If they put out the best QoL change to Kuva ever, it would be a huge sigh of relieve to the general player base, and the hard core farmers. Double the drop of regular kuva siphons, kuva flood, and survival. The only viable method right now, is getting a booster.

If it was boosted up to what a booster gives, then it'd be so much better to actually farm for. To get actual bang for your buck. And having a booster? It'd be superb. Currently you can run for 3 or more hours, and spend all of that in 5 minutes or less, with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Double the Kuva in Siphons/survival so it's more bang for your buck, and that's the tl;dr QoL change that Rivens need.

RNG in the rerolling process wouldn't feel so bad knowing Kuva was a little easier to get than a bee sting walking through a beekeepers hive yard.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Hixlysss said:

Such as the Hema Mutagen Samples, Vauban Prime Oxium costs,

Yeah... these are not even comparable. One is an uncommon resource practically only available in Derelicts (and rarely ever encountered on Eris!) where you can get about 20-30 per 40 minutes of Derelict Survival without a farm frame or booster and opening every single locker and breaking every container. The other is a guaranteed drop from the very common Oxium Osprey found almost everywhere there are Corpus... in addition to being available in lockers and breakable containers and probably also a possible drop from other Corpus units. Oh yeah, you can also get 100 Oxium from low level Cetus and Fortuna bounties. Sure wish you could get 100 Mutagen Samples through low level bounties... considering it takes 40 minutes to get 20-30 of them without a farm frame or boosters and opening every locker and breakable container.

7000 Oxium != 5000 Mutagen Samples ... not even close. Don't make me laugh.

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43 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

3) Most complainers are either kids that want everything instantly or hardcore players that seem to forget that 2000 hours spent playing one game for 5 hours a day is 400 STRAIGHT DAYS! Sustainable content for them is impossible and especially for a game not meant to be super difficult. The vet thing is as dumb as it gets. They want more but more is not a snap of the finger. And since more isn't now, they publicly bash the company and hide their immaturity with phrases like "white knight", "avocados". They have a poor understanding that large content = more time invested. 

Are we really pretending you need 2000 hours in the game to find most content trivial?  Not everything in the game needs to be designed for new players; we already have 400 different missions to fight level 20 enemies, and yet none to fight enemies above level 100.  Everyone wants to start at the finish line, but there's nothing to do here but keep fighting the same enemies that pose no threat to anyone and die instantly.

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16 minutes ago, nslay said:

Yeah... these are not even comparable. One is an uncommon resource practically only available in Derelicts (and rarely ever encountered on Eris!) where you can get about 20-30 per 40 minutes of Derelict Survival without a farm frame or booster and opening every single locker and breaking every container. The other is a guaranteed drop from the very common Oxium Osprey found almost everywhere there are Corpus... in addition to being available in lockers and breakable containers and probably also a possible drop from other Corpus units. Oh yeah, you can also get 100 Oxium from low level Cetus and Fortuna bounties. Sure wish you could get 100 Mutagen Samples through low level bounties... considering it takes 40 minutes to get 20-30 of them without a farm frame or boosters and opening every locker and breakable container.

7000 Oxium != 5000 Mutagen Samples ... not even close. Don't make me laugh.

Fair. But at the time of the Hema's release I was sitting on close to 5k mutagen samples from not needing them for so long. The same with Oxium. The thing to point out here is DE made these with these high costs to deal with players sitting on stockpiles of these resources, a 'resource sink' so to speak. Most likely they looked at the 'average total' of these resources and said '#*!% it' and based the prices off that.

Also Oxium was a bit harder to obtain back then, but still easier than mutagen, how ever the thing to point out is people complained equally about both these resource costs. Vauban's cost was actually 10k oxium before but only got reduced to 7k due to complaints.

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2 hours ago, Alcatraz said:

No it's not... I want to think this is over exaggeration. I got 243d 10h 33m played, (mission hours, not steam) which is 5843 hours in total. Your math is a wee bit off.

Sorry Alcatraz, I was using actual hours played divided by a projected 5 hours per day playing (5 hours per day × 400 days=2000 hours). What the game counts is every hour played @ 24 hours per day. Ex: If you played 6 hours per day for 4 days, the game will count that as one 24hr day. 

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1 hour ago, Zekkii said:

Are we really pretending you need 2000 hours in the game to find most content trivial?  Not everything in the game needs to be designed for new players; we already have 400 different missions to fight level 20 enemies, and yet none to fight enemies above level 100.  Everyone wants to start at the finish line, but there's nothing to do here but keep fighting the same enemies that pose no threat to anyone and die instantly.

Not at all. The mod system in Warframe prevents the need to hunt for "legendary gear" so I don't think Warframe's original gaming model was designed for high level difficulty. That said, DE is following a predictable path and are looking to create a massive update to keep us occupied while they finally start addressing the endgame stuff. 

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4 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

how DE quickly changed their stance on the Universal Medallions affecting Conclave

They went from "we don't have a stance on this yet, we're gonna survey player feedback and see where to go from there" to "we've listened to Conclave players and decided on a stance". Also, for what it's worth a single angry tweet was definitely not the only opinion against making Unimedallions apply to Conclave, it was just the one that got the most clicks.

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Ironically, there's something I DON'T want them to change their mind on.

They've recently been on a trend of making frames that can't just nuke/switch off/tank the map with a push of a button, but instead require that you play the game to get what you want. Obviously, such frames are in the minority, but as they go along and rework things, hopefully that can change.

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If I am a DEsigner at this point in time I'd develop Schizophrenia if I were to go by what the community says. 

But to answer the question in particular from my own personal opinion, I'd like for them to get into tit for tat and be done with one thing being too strong, and thus universally applicable. Case in point--Maiming Strike, this mod is actually useless because it has no place in the game as a tool. It's completely obsolete by it's sheer power alone which is an utter paradox.  

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I'd say, "listen to the veterans, consider their proposals". That would make a huge difference. There are around 40 or 50 million accounts, many of them are veterans, but daily only around 50 thousand people are playing. So there are literally millions of veterans waiting for endgame content or high level content, new quests or weapons... Simple, just give them something, cause a single veteran may help a dozen of new players if they meet in game. Veterans deserve some care, not just the new players.

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2 hours ago, XzWasPzX said:

I'd say, "listen to the veterans, consider their proposals". That would make a huge difference. There are around 40 or 50 million accounts, many of them are veterans, but daily only around 50 thousand people are playing. So there are literally millions of veterans waiting for endgame content or high level content, new quests or weapons... Simple, just give them something, cause a single veteran may help a dozen of new players if they meet in game. Veterans deserve some care, not just the new players.

They have, several times. Each time has been improved over the last. The latest, Disruption, is an endless, endgame mode where you can earn a warframe, two new weapons, kuva, a new focus lens and more.

Prior to that was Kuva Survival with an endless mod rewarding system called kuva where you can "update your legendary mod",  aka riven, by rerolling it to personal perfection.

Prior to that was Sanctuary Onslaught, a place to earn higher focus points, weapons, relics and a warframe. The elite version had power restrictions but offered better rewards.

The Eidolon fights rewarded players with up to six tiers of aura mods, depending on if you killed or captured the eidolons. Aura mods, aka extra slots, we're also rewarded for the operator by trading in the collected sentient drops. Vets spent literally entire days raiding these in order to collect the rewards.

Then there's the axi relic defense and survivals, replacing the old single, non selectable, item per rotation tier 4 system with a new multi choice tier 4 system. Depending on how many players are in the squad and the relics they chose, there are up to 16 possible choices per rotation and 4 of those selectable at one per player guaranteed.

So....yes, the vets, like myself, have been catered to, listened to and heard. The problem is simple: we want more...of everything. More enemies, more difficulty, more gear, more environments, more new stuff, more rewards. DE cannot possibly churn out a solution for that because it is an ENDLESS hunger. Most of us are gluttons of a game that has given us a heck of a lot over the years and are just too hungry to rationally allow DE the time to create something for us. That's fine. The problem however, is that some of us are like that spoiled loud crying kid that really, really wants another trophy without understanding that they were carried and can't even handle the current content. They are too loud, they're fakes, snowflakes, whiners that don't realize you can see their stats.

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hace 6 minutos, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 dijo:

They have, several times. Each time has been improved over the last. The latest, Disruption, is an endless, endgame mode where you can earn a warframe, two new weapons, kuva, a new focus lens and more.

Prior to that was Kuva Survival with an endless mod rewarding system called kuva where you can "update your legendary mod",  aka riven, by rerolling it to personal perfection.

Prior to that was Sanctuary Onslaught, a place to earn higher focus points, weapons, relics and a warframe. The elite version had power restrictions but offered better rewards.

The Eidolon fights rewarded players with up to six tiers of aura mods, depending on if you killed or captured the eidolons. Aura mods, aka extra slots, we're also rewarded for the operator by trading in the collected sentient drops. Vets spent literally entire days raiding these in order to collect the rewards.

Then there's the axi relic defense and survivals, replacing the old single, non selectable, item per rotation tier 4 system with a new multi choice tier 4 system. Depending on how many players are in the squad and the relics they chose, there are up to 16 possible choices per rotation and 4 of those selectable at one per player guaranteed.

So....yes, the vets, like myself, have been catered to, listened to and heard. The problem is simple: we want more...of everything. More enemies, more difficulty, more gear, more environments, more new stuff, more rewards. DE cannot possibly churn out a solution for that because it is an ENDLESS hunger. Most of us are gluttons of a game that has given us a heck of a lot over the years and are just too hungry to rationally allow DE the time to create something for us. That's fine. The problem however, is that some of us are like that spoiled loud crying kid that really, really wants another trophy without understanding that they were carried and can't even handle the current content. They are too loud, they're fakes, snowflakes, whiners that don't realize you can see their stats.

If vets have been listened, where are the raids? Cause every vet i know wants it, or have asked for it. But no, raids are not coming, devs dont say a word bout it, its a taboo in fact to talk bout raids. I still say, listen to the vets.

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13 hours ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

I gotta say that DE does more for changes, updates, and looking at what players suggest more than ANY other game company whose games I have played.

gotta admit, "some" changes from player feedback they have indeed implemented, however i do not recall any players "wanting" fishing, mining, photography, pokemon, archwing, operators, streetfighter2 or guitar hero as much needed features in a sci-fi space ninja run and gun horde shooter.

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1 hour ago, XzWasPzX said:

If vets have been listened, where are the raids? Cause every vet i know wants it, or have asked for it. But no, raids are not coming, devs dont say a word bout it, its a taboo in fact to talk bout raids. I still say, listen to the vets.

I don't want Raids.

22 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

gotta admit, "some" changes from player feedback they have indeed implemented, however i do not recall any players "wanting" fishing, mining, photography, pokemon, archwing, operators, streetfighter2 or guitar hero as much needed features in a sci-fi space ninja run and gun horde shooter.

Because we are all sitting in our own little echo chambers. Especially some vets like that kind of stuff, to spend time in the game with different activities than what they do all the time. Operators have been my favourite addition to the game since it started, I absolutely love the shawzin and Captura communities are growing more and more. These new ideas are what I love about Warframe and why I'm still playing after 6years. Some are hits, some are misses, but it always makes me look forward to what they'll think of next.

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