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Avlaen

Current melee is still blegh.

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I don't think we needed at this point a melee 3.0 the only major issues were in the last system the damage type balances and the elemental balance. Sure, they wanted to implement the block in some way and force us to use our combos but now the whole system is feels clunky. I personally hate the slow animations which blocks you to do sucessfully any melee attempt. Without the stances the problem is the same and you just lose a lot of mod capacity by not using them.

For me the autoblock is not that bothersome I can live with that but if you want to kill fast and be efficient (in a lot situation is useful) you need fast attack animations which not blocks your movement.

Behind the scenes hopefully they are working on this issue too but we cannot be sure. This is an important thing and widely affects the playerbase so they should not leave it in halfway otherwise they could lose a lot of players whom tries to melee.

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13 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

This is actually an extremely difficult solution. A lot was changed for the current melee system (for example the swapping speed from gunning to melee). DE can't just flip a switch and revert that back. And also if DE gives legacy switches for everything, then there will never be progress...

I don't see how that swapping speed change is anything more complicated than either zeroing out the animation time or the contents of a playAnimation() function. That could extremely easily be backported to the old system.

Or not even that, because at the beginning of the new system, quick melee still existed alongside it - when you had an archgun equipped. The two simultaneous codepaths are still there. DE had to go and explicitly disable it.

12 hours ago, trst said:

Because it's still unfinished. There isn't any reason whatsoever for them to take any feedback along the lines of "change it back" if they still intend on finishing the update.

I see no sign that they are going to finish the update - we've been like this for 7 months now with not only zero improvement to the state of things, but an active regression (melee breaks scanning, mining and fishing even more). In fact, the only real sign we have is that they are going to abandon the melee update - see the new aura mods which provide bonuses to charge attacks and combo duration.

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24 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

I don't see how

That's easy. You don't know how Warframe is made.
It's safe to assume that Melee 2.9 (what we have now) isn't just a simple change of numbers or anything. It's safe to assume that reverting it back would take some time.
Time DE could invest in working more on Melee 3.0. So reverting things back would push back Melee 3.0 even further. Not a smart decision.

And now think about shareholders of DE. If they see that DE just reverts a big system-change, do you think they would be happy with that?
And what's with all the people liking the current system? Compared to the old system, the current one is way better. I would hate DE for reverting it.

All in all it's better if DE keeps things as they are and keeps on working on Melee 3.0 in order to ship it sooner more than later.

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1 minute ago, WhiteMarker said:

That's easy. You don't know how Warframe is made.
It's safe to assume that Melee 2.9 (what we have now) isn't just a simple change of numbers or anything. It's safe to assume that reverting it back would take some time.
Time DE could invest in working more on Melee 3.0. So reverting things back would push back Melee 3.0 even further. Not a smart decision.

And now think about shareholders of DE. If they see that DE just reverts a big system-change, do you think they would be happy with that?
And what's with all the people liking the current system? Compared to the old system, the current one is way better. I would hate DE for reverting it.

All in all it's better if DE keeps things as they are and keeps on working on Melee 3.0 in order to ship it sooner more than later.

Perhaps not, but neither do you know how its made. The best either of us can do is to look at the visible effects and try to infer the underlying changes.

What I do know is that we already have a working system in the form of melee 2.0. DE can't possibly be incompetent enough to delete old code the moment it's been replaced, version control systems have been standard for any large project for decades. We also know that quick melee and the current system are compatible, because that's what you had with archguns.

You like the current system, I hate it. The OP evidently does as well, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist. Nor the gigantic megathread which DE have tried to hide by unstickying it. The question here is in the balance of preferences - how many prefer it compared to the old system. If the new system is worse, then not reverting it would be the bad idea. What would their shareholders think if they implemented something crap and then left it there, knowing that it was crap all the time.

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What we need are OPTIONS.

Manual-Block or Auto-Block selection would solve a lot of issues. I would personally rather have Manual-Block and have to use the F key to get back to my Primary/Secondary even if it included a holster time. While some don't see the use in Blocking, many of us did. Block/Parry can prevent all that one-shotting and stun-locks that people cry about if used properly.

Auto-Block also made every Shield/Melee (Arc & Brunt) weapon worthless, because their greatest benefit was the bonus granted during BLOCKING. Also, Blocking while meleeing stopped, or slowed, directional movement. This allowed to curb the animation-overuse we see on Stances now. While they look cool in practice, for actual gameplay the animations are sheet. "Hey look! You can break dance while getting shot and not be able to hit the target you were actually aiming at!". Wonderful.

As for the comments from DE that we can not equip a gun.....yeah, and the system could be well planned out and programmed correctly too.

Edited by Ryim_Drykeon

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1 hour ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

As for the comments from DE that we can not equip a gun

that comment is so assinine that I give up trying to comprehend the reason why.. we were able to do so before why cant we do it now? = lacking vision

Edited by ranks21

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To me melee doesn't have enough frames of useful animations(doesn't flow well). Combos don't stay with the target your attacking so you dance away locked in a canned useless spectacle. Meanwhile there's a million stances with shallow same button press gameplay. Let's look at that machete chop for the same swing ten billion times. What's very laughable and should be embarrassing is that the emotes have more style than the whole melee system. Put that ina pipe and smoke it

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Not trying to antagonize here, but I really don't get how horrible yall find this change...

Sure, for valkyr, as much as I understand her, there are a few changes she needs, completly ok with that.

But in general, before the change, it never really felt different weither I was mashing quick attack or carefully inputing combos : pretty much anything in front of me would get one shot blender style. Yeah, having the weapon in hand, I could potentialy block the thin, fast moving, black, ancient's tendril with a block... But in the massive visual clutter the game can become, that never occured to me as a realistic plan.

Now, I can take advantage of the stance without holding f for a second, I can reflex block by pressing f once intead of a second. Sure, we should be able to hold f to lock the melee in hand, to glide and guarantee combos. Although, I want this more for the stylish glide, as I did not have much problem with the block combos so far.

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23 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Not trying to antagonize here, but I really don't get how horrible yall find this change...

Sure, for valkyr, as much as I understand her, there are a few changes she needs, completly ok with that.

But in general, before the change, it never really felt different weither I was mashing quick attack or carefully inputing combos : pretty much anything in front of me would get one shot blender style. Yeah, having the weapon in hand, I could potentialy block the thin, fast moving, black, ancient's tendril with a block... But in the massive visual clutter the game can become, that never occured to me as a realistic plan.

Now, I can take advantage of the stance without holding f for a second, I can reflex block by pressing f once intead of a second. Sure, we should be able to hold f to lock the melee in hand, to glide and guarantee combos. Although, I want this more for the stylish glide, as I did not have much problem with the block combos so far.

Having a key thats required for melee combos also pull out your gun is just terribly jarring and messy, oh im trying to do my combo, oh now i have my gun out and im shooting because someone thought having a melee combo button and aim on the same key was a good idea.

 

It just totally disrupts the flow, and practicaly ruins valkyrs claws.

Edited by Avlaen

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7 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

I see no sign that they are going to finish the update - we've been like this for 7 months now with not only zero improvement to the state of things, but an active regression (melee breaks scanning, mining and fishing even more). In fact, the only real sign we have is that they are going to abandon the melee update - see the new aura mods which provide bonuses to charge attacks and combo duration.

On multiple occasion now since the last update they've said they're "working on it", it's more of a non answer than anything but it's not an indication they plan to abandon the update. If anything it seems like yet another situation where DE bit off more than they can chew and continued biting off more anyways with the scale of every update they have in progress.

Also the aura mods mean nothing as we know both combo and charge attacks were getting reworks in the rest of the update, not removals.

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21 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

"Melee 1.0 + stances" is what we have, in an attempt to leave us with a Melee system instead of disabling it completely.

 

... Funny thing though, its exactly what people asked for. "Quick Melee with stances plz!!" like I saw in hundreds of different topics... So~, learn to live with it in peace, until 3.0 comes out.

So wrong it's not even funny. Nobody was asking for quick melee with stances, and that's not what we got either. We lost the fluid quick melee animations and exalted melee got indirectly nerfed in exchange for being forced to use S#&$ty stance animations. There's a reason just about everyone using melee at all any more is spin spamming, and it's not just because it's good.

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38 minutes ago, trst said:

On multiple occasion now since the last update they've said they're "working on it", it's more of a non answer than anything but it's not an indication they plan to abandon the update. If anything it seems like yet another situation where DE bit off more than they can chew and continued biting off more anyways with the scale of every update they have in progress.

And how long are we going to have to wait for them to slowly continue chewing on one of the most important mechanics of the game? How much longer do we need to suffer a half-baked melee which is neither a jack of all trades nor a master of anything?

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21 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

There's a reason just about everyone using melee at all any more is spin spamming, and it's not just because it's good.

You're even more wrong there than what you pointed out on what I said. People don't spin spamming because of how broken Melee is, they use it because of Memeing strike + Riven stat counterpart and there's no other reason for it besides Memeing Strike + Riven stat counterpart. This isn't even debatable.

And yes, people asked for stances to be used on Quick Melee, since it was the only way to give relevance back to it. Use the search function to find all those old topics about it, as I'm not going to lose time to search for something I know it happened, both in the forums AND ingame plenty of enough times for me to blatantly memorize, against my will, what was said.

And yes, what we have is Melee 1.0 + stances. Its not even worth debating because if you take the stance off, you get Melee 1.0 with Damage 2.0.

To avoid people from using auto-block with the Reflex Guard mod (which is exactly where it would make the most sense), they changed it to increase blocking angle (as if that would be more useful than a chance at blocking without having to press the Q-Melee button).

If you have a problem with something I have said, then its your problem, and yours alone. I'm not going to discuss perception variances about it, because its pointless. Everyone can see what this broken melee dung of a system actually is. Take away the stances, and its a full regression to Melee 1.0, including the auto-block debacle.

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2 hours ago, trst said:

On multiple occasion now since the last update they've said they're "working on it",

I remember when people were still interested in DE improving stealth gameplay, and the kept saying for years how they're going to be working on it. Then the said they couldn't because other systems like animations and AI need to be improved for them to do anything with stealth. I think the last time they talked about it was about three years ago, maybe longer. So "we're working on it" doesn't necessarily mean they're actually making progress. It can just as well mean that they have spread their resources too thinly, once again, and don't have the time.

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its the same with archwing flight controls that needed minor tweaks to make it fluid and useful then they went totally bonkers with it now basically no one plays archwing like they used to when it was full of bugs. biting off more than they can chew is an understatement.

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2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

You're even more wrong there than what you pointed out on what I said. People don't spin spamming because of how broken Melee is, they use it because of Memeing strike + Riven stat counterpart and there's no other reason for it besides Memeing Strike + Riven stat counterpart. This isn't even debatable.

 you guys love to blame maiming strike for the spin attacks that players love to do and youre all basically wrong. the reason why maiming strike is loved is not because of whatever power you get from it, its far from that. it is the closest thing to "COPTERING" that was taken out of the melee moveset and DE had to do something so we get it in a mod<< if that didn't happen most of the melee players would just quit and plenty have done so already << get the facts straight. and no matter how great you are at parkour or bullet jumping bs, it can never EVER reach the speeds of coptering.

and now youll start to understand why Warframe got popular back in the day<< couple that speed with regularly updates, quests, new mods etc and you have a gaming hit<< now you will see why the older/long time players with over 5k hrs invested say that the game has lost its identity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KeuCSCY9z8

bullet jumping in comparison<< remember coptering needed no mods for functionality or speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7siviHwqV0U

Edited by ranks21

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I annihilate with melee.  If you have a good weapon with a good stance for that weapon, melee should be no issue.  Unfortunately the stances for some weapons will probably always be a hindrance if you aren't willing to try others.  

While I understand all weapons should be viable, as it is now they are not and that might be why it is taking so long to roll out melee 3.0.   Not an easy fix and many stances being reworked... I hope.  Only daggers should be inferior unless your a stealth frame.  Who brings a dagger to a sword fight?... assassins that who.

Edited by (PS4)Ashagin

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Il y a 7 heures, Avlaen a dit :

Having a key thats required for melee combos also pull out your gun is just terribly jarring and messy, oh im trying to do my combo, oh now i have my gun out and im shooting because someone thought having a melee combo button and aim on the same key was a good idea.

 

It just totally disrupts the flow, and practicaly ruins valkyrs claws.

Yeah I get how that can be annoying.

The real question I'm asking is how much of a benefit do you get from using combos anyway ?

Weither I'm carefully doing combos that force slash procs and whatnot, or just mashing melee into oblivion, the result is pretty much the same, stuff dies about as fast.

Appart from a very select weapons where the mashing combo is annoying (and obviously valkyr that needs that fix), what are you loosing of such importance ?

Legit asking, in case I'm missing something

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1 hour ago, Fallen77 said:

Yeah I get how that can be annoying.

The real question I'm asking is how much of a benefit do you get from using combos anyway ?

Weither I'm carefully doing combos that force slash procs and whatnot, or just mashing melee into oblivion, the result is pretty much the same, stuff dies about as fast.

Appart from a very select weapons where the mashing combo is annoying (and obviously valkyr that needs that fix), what are you loosing of such importance ?

Legit asking, in case I'm missing something

Fun for the most part, but i mainly use rapiers where RMB combo clears adds nicely The held combo forces a finisher and the stadnard combo is best for slash procs, but if your not using combos, we are just back to melee 1.0 and are ignoring all the fun improvments melee 2.0 came with

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Il y a 8 heures, Avlaen a dit :

Fun for the most part, but i mainly use rapiers where RMB combo clears adds nicely The held combo forces a finisher and the stadnard combo is best for slash procs, but if your not using combos, we are just back to melee 1.0 and are ignoring all the fun improvments melee 2.0 came with

Okok, then it's mostly loss of style and confort (which I respect, can't judge taste).

But that got me thinking, the melee aim glide is a bigger loss than I thought, as blocking midair got completely unreliable. Not that I'm ever missing this ability on my day to day grind, but I can see how some melee only users would want that back pretty badly.

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On 2019-09-20 at 2:08 PM, Avlaen said:

"eventually" isnt good enough its been a problem for too long as it is.

Don't know what to tell you other than they won't do it. Melee 3.0 will come after a major content drop because many are getting bored with the lack of content. 

On 2019-09-20 at 2:08 PM, Avlaen said:

Especially with all the feedback, and none of it is being acted on?

It's probably on the list along with various mission-breaking bugs and other stuff. Unfortunately a simple recode won't fix it as evidenced by the fact they haven't talked about fixing it or really even mentioning it at all as a major concern.

On 2019-09-20 at 2:08 PM, Avlaen said:

And giving us a "legacy" toggle would be a easy solution untill melee is fixed

No, sorry, doubt that will work. It's like asking for a toggle to the old parkour system. So much has changed it'd likely require a complete rework of the melee code, and would likely be remedied by melee 3.0.

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11 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Yeah I get how that can be annoying.

The real question I'm asking is how much of a benefit do you get from using combos anyway ?

Weither I'm carefully doing combos that force slash procs and whatnot, or just mashing melee into oblivion, the result is pretty much the same, stuff dies about as fast.

Appart from a very select weapons where the mashing combo is annoying (and obviously valkyr that needs that fix), what are you loosing of such importance ?

Legit asking, in case I'm missing something

I'll take the question as I wandered that myself too before actually starting using combos. Your doubt is legit and you are even right to a certain extent as quick melee is perfectly capable of dispatching opponents......up to a certain level. Combos can force some statuses such as slash procs sure but can also inflict knock down, finisher damage and give damage boost to the whole combo. It doesn't sound much in lower and mid levels, even early "high" level enemies if you use the right weapon and elements.

Another perk of combos is the mobility they allow as some of them can be used to whirl around the room lightning fast-like. Depending on the occasion a nikana specialize in a fast and pretty decent to control advance or you can use stave to turn into a mindless and hard to control tornado that will propel you trough a group of enemies. Some of them are easier to control and use than others. Now you might think "why not just use a gun?" but combos are actually really, really useful and able to outperform the fastest gun in some situations. Think of it like a "plus", it's better to have it even if you don't use it and you know it's there. In the past I would have encouraged you to try them as some of them are really cool looking and effective to use but, right now, the combo system has been turned into a fustercluck that is quite unpleasant to deal with. If you want to try combos the old way the only solution is to equip a melee only so that the right mouse button will no longer force a ranged weapon and revert to block and yes, it also allows you to melee glide again. Hope it was helpful

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il y a 34 minutes, Olphalarepth a dit :

I'll take the question as I wandered that myself too before actually starting using combos. Your doubt is legit and you are even right to a certain extent as quick melee is perfectly capable of dispatching opponents......up to a certain level. Combos can force some statuses such as slash procs sure but can also inflict knock down, finisher damage and give damage boost to the whole combo. It doesn't sound much in lower and mid levels, even early "high" level enemies if you use the right weapon and elements.

Another perk of combos is the mobility they allow as some of them can be used to whirl around the room lightning fast-like. Depending on the occasion a nikana specialize in a fast and pretty decent to control advance or you can use stave to turn into a mindless and hard to control tornado that will propel you trough a group of enemies. Some of them are easier to control and use than others. Now you might think "why not just use a gun?" but combos are actually really, really useful and able to outperform the fastest gun in some situations. Think of it like a "plus", it's better to have it even if you don't use it and you know it's there. In the past I would have encouraged you to try them as some of them are really cool looking and effective to use but, right now, the combo system has been turned into a fustercluck that is quite unpleasant to deal with. If you want to try combos the old way the only solution is to equip a melee only so that the right mouse button will no longer force a ranged weapon and revert to block and yes, it also allows you to melee glide again. Hope it was helpful

It's true that I don't consider ennemies past 1 hour of arbitration, as I'm too bored to stay any longer, and my BS/CO zaws have always done the job until there. But yes, I suppose forcing slash and finishers beyond lvl 150ish might become necessary, it's really hurting you if you aim to go there, I see I see.

But for equipping only melee, I imagine melee only users would like to lvl up mr fodder at the same time, yeah, the more I think about it, the more I get why yall disappointed !

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On 2019-09-20 at 2:54 PM, Avlaen said:

I used to be a primarily melee player, nowadays i barely use it because of the new "melee" and so far despite a lot of feedback and requests for something like a toggle, ive seen no real mention from the devs about responding to the feedback, and its no longer a case of its new just get used to it.

Why does RMB aim my gun when im trying to do a combo? why does auto block mess up my inputs? why cant i Glide with a melee weapon? All this would be solved by having the current system AND the ability to hold F to equip our melee weapon like before.

Warframes gone from one of my favourite games to something i play just to not miss out on nightwaves, because my favourite part of the game has been made an awkward mess for a long time now. Especially if its a frame like valkyr

Yeah...you really DO have a good point when it comes to Valkyr’s playstyle.  Auto swapping and directional groundslams could be EASILY implemented with old melee.

It’s looking like this is basically what the community is asking for.

Edited by (PS4)Silverback73

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