Saryn's 4th ability

[DawnFyreSon]

1 hour ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

finally that she is not that good against super high level enemies? Saryn takes time to use. And a lot of energy which some players found ways around with like Dig. 

Not every frame is meant to destroy maps. For example, Loki is meant for stealth missions like spy. A Saryn is not a good choice for spies. Even with a rhino roar TRIPLING the damage, Saryn still cannot wipe out level 100s as quickly as people be claiming. Those people are either omitting a lot of info such as the spores building up over time to be able to kill quickly, or they are greatly exaggerating. The Simulacrum is not a very good evidence or proof since there is a thing called True Damage that unalerted enemies take and a paused AI takes more damaged than an unpaused AI. 

I’ve been playing high level missions a lot for Neo and Axi relics, new content, resources, etc. and a Saryn has NEVER done what you people be claiming she does. Which means y’all are specifically focusing on weak missions where any frame could kill hordes quickly. 

So you are just going to ignore that ESO is a thing, and she is the single best frame there? Last time I leeched ESO (from a saryn btw, because no point trying when a frame can do it all) the enemies were level 100+ and saryn was pretty much killing them on spawn, even when they were grineer.

It seems its you who is focusing on on false claims. We are not talking about level 30 enemies, because at that point there are alternatives to killing huge hordes like volt, and to a lesser degree maimquinox. It seems you havent really been reading the posts just skimming them. You keep rehashing the same elitist arguments without addressing any of the points raised.

Explain this:

1. Why does Saryn get to have a 50%(!) speed buff, same as volt, making her an A-tier speedframe?

2. Why does Saryn get to apply the two best status effects in this game, when every other nuke frame gets its damage deleted by armor (GL hitting ESO lv8 with volt with only one CP in your squad)

3. Why does Saryn get to have the cheapest ability costs in the game? When a Volt needs to run ESO he really needs to have an EV trin unlike Saryn who can just solo carry all of it.

And ESO is just an example. So no we are not talking about starchart trash.

[Hellmaker2004]

3 minutes ago, DawnFyreSon said:

1. Why does Saryn get to have a 50%(!) speed buff, same as volt, making her an A-tier speedframe?

Because she does not share the speed with teammates, it only last half the base duration for twice the cost.

 

3 minutes ago, DawnFyreSon said:

2. Why does Saryn get to apply the two best status effects in this game, when every other nuke frame gets its damage deleted by armor (GL hitting ESO lv8 with volt with only one CP in your squad)

It is only the best depending on what content you are doing / what faction, and Corrosive does nothing against most Corpus enemies, most Infected enemies and it is worthless if the group runs 4x Corrosive Projection(This is the meta by the way), same with Viral. Sure it reduces the enemies red health or yellow but when the shield is the main source of EHP(effective health points) that wont matter as much.

ESO Lv 8 is easy to hit. You can do that with a decent melee weapon on a 100% Tank Frame.

 

6 minutes ago, DawnFyreSon said:

3. Why does Saryn get to have the cheapest ability costs in the game? When a Volt needs to run ESO he really needs to have an EV trin unlike Saryn who can just solo carry all of it.

Because Miasma by itself deal less damage than most other damage frame and it is pretty much a requirement to always use spore with it. And big surprise but 75 + 25 = 100, the same as most other frames four ability although that also varies a lot.

I guess what we could argue is Molt and Toxic Lash both being 50 Energy is a outline from the norm. Perhaps Molt is so cheap because the default EHP that it has before it absorb is pitiful amount. Or the fact that the so much complained speed bonus only last five seconds default compared to volts team-wide ten second default duration is the reason.

What about Toxic Lash, why does that only cost 50 energy you say? 
Well first off the order of ability's does not dictate cost, it is a common thing that the first ability is the cheapest, the second ability cost slightly more and the third ability cost even more than the second one and last but not least the fourth ability cost the most. However there are plenty of other frames where this is not true so Saryn is hardly the only one.

But the reason it cost so little is, despite what people always assume spreading spore is not something the game does by itself. You have to actively work on it or they will simply fall off, and anyone who play Saryn know that letting spore fall off is devastating on the generation of spore damage, something that will eventually happen because when the so called scenario where everything dies occurs guess what, this is when Spore have reached critical mass and despite what a lot of people think spore does not automatically stay there, it losses 20% Value instantly, and then 10% value every 0.5 second until you manage to re-spore. And this is something that Toxic Lash help with this since any damage done by weapons affected by Toxic Lash will guarantee spore spread.

 

There are plenty of post where people complain about ability dependency on a frames ability, and that is literary how Saryn is designed, the main outlier is that while you are bullet jumping trying to find new targets and cast spore on them, strike enemies afflicted by spore while you keep toxic lash up, Cast molt when in danger or Cast Miasma to cripple foes health you are not thinking that most of her kit would be worthless if they did not synergies because you are pretty much occupied doing all of those things.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

12 minutes ago, DawnFyreSon said:

So you are just going to ignore that ESO is a thing, and she is the single best frame there? Last time I leeched ESO (from a saryn btw, because no point trying when a frame can do it all) the enemies were level 100+ and saryn was pretty much killing them on spawn, even when they were grineer.

It seems its you who is focusing on on false claims. We are not talking about level 30 enemies, because at that point there are alternatives to killing huge hordes like volt, and to a lesser degree maimquinox. It seems you havent really been reading the posts just skimming them. You keep rehashing the same elitist arguments without addressing any of the points raised.

Explain this:

1. Why does Saryn get to have a 50%(!) speed buff, same as volt, making her an A-tier speedframe?

2. Why does Saryn get to apply the two best status effects in this game, when every other nuke frame gets its damage deleted by armor (GL hitting ESO lv8 with volt with only one CP in your squad)

3. Why does Saryn get to have the cheapest ability costs in the game? When a Volt needs to run ESO he really needs to have an EV trin unlike Saryn who can just solo carry all of it.

And ESO is just an example. So no we are not talking about starchart trash.

Again more assumption. I’m MR27 1/2. I’ve played with every frame and I still try to figure out ways that 2 or more different frames could benefit one another in a coordinated squad. In other words I’ve played with Saryn. I’ve made multiple different builds from 337% power strength to 280% range, to over 200% duration and even 175% efficiency. Currently run a 265% range plus 154% power strength plus 160% efficiency and 95% duration. Even with the range the spores still have a difficult time spreading. And I’ve played with dozens of Saryns yet the only ones you keep mentioning only exist in the forums.

Next, I’m well aware of ESO and enemies do not start off at 100, so omitting the details of which zone you were in during Elite Sanctuary Onslaught does not help. Not to mention people who refer to regular Sanctuary Onslaught as ESO. And I’ve brought a Rhino into multiple Onslaughts, especially to farm for the Fire Steps, and I have powered up a Saryn and TRIPLED the damage. Still did not kill them “instantly” but enough for us to keep going to zone 8, and many players have asked the Saryn for their builds. Some even said “Saryn is OP” while my Rhino is tripling the damage. Only a few people who are fully aware of Rhino’s capability would ask me for my build. 

Then Saryn is not the only killframe. A buddy of mine usually brings Equinox into the ESO and I power him up with my rhino which allows US to destroy the enemies and keep the efficiency up. After all, the objective is to “kill everything you encounter. Do not relent”. Everybody I’ve encountered expressed how glad they were for me and my buddy and even asked if they could continue to farm with us. 

Then, as a rhino powering up a Saryn, I’m still able to run around and kill enemies. Mostly the super tough ones. I may not kill as much as the Saryn or Equinox in the group but I don’t stand around and make excuses to do nothing. Never did even when I was a newbie 3 years ago. 

Saryn does not have the cheapest cost. Most enemies are weak against Viral and some of the tough ones are weak against corrosive. And Saryn having both makes her the best for pure grineer killing. Equinox can kill decent level corpus and infested faster than a Saryn. Maybe if DE buffed up the other frames to do more damage then I would understand. Or if DE made other weaknesses beside Viral and Corrosive more noticeable. My volt power strength is over 300% yet still has a hard time killing level 30 enemies. Mainly grineer. 

Volt is way faster than Saryn. My volt increases the squad’s speed by 2.5x and lasts for 24 seconds. My saryn even at 299% strength couldn’t make me run that quick with her Molt.

Every frame has a purpose. But y’all choose to only focus on how much damage could be done or how many kills y’all can get. Saryn is not the best frame and never will be. Otherwise EVERYBODY would be using her and making posts demanding for the others to be buffed. She is absolutely useless against bosses while chroma and rhino can kill them easily. She is not that useful in open world maps due to the wide open areas and her abilities can’t reach that far while chroma and rhino are usually chosen to destroy enemy ships before they can arrive on the field. 

What I find funny is that every time me and a buddy get together and do missions like ESO and destroy everything with our Rhino and Saryn/Equinox combo, I soon find a post by a newbie saying that Equinox or Saryn should be nerfed. If it is that big of a deal then these posts should be getting like 100-1,000 likes and votes. But they don’t. Because most people see the value in Saryn and knows she is NOT the best frame in the game. She is just ONE of the best for pure killing objectives. 

I’m pointing out facts based on my experience. All you’re doing is saying “they exist and should be removed”. Not providing enough evidence to support. Videos would help with your claims but yet you people refuse to provide any. 

Until DE reduces the grind requirements, demands for nerfs are never going to be fully supported by the community. 

Again, you have solo and recruit if you want a squad purely for fun. The rest of us are going to continue to grind for what we need/want within the time periods we have since some of us have lives outside this game and don’t have the time to bring a valkyr into an ESO. 

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

14 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Because she does not share the speed with teammates, it only last half the base duration for twice the cost.

 

It is only the best depending on what content you are doing / what faction, and Corrosive does nothing against most Corpus enemies, most Infected enemies and it is worthless if the group runs 4x Corrosive Projection(This is the meta by the way), same with Viral. Sure it reduces the enemies red health or yellow but when the shield is the main source of EHP(effective health points) that wont matter as much.

ESO Lv 8 is easy to hit. You can do that with a decent melee weapon on a 100% Tank Frame.

 

Because Miasma by itself deal less damage than most other damage frame and it is pretty much a requirement to always use spore with it. And big surprise but 75 + 25 = 100, the same as most other frames four ability although that also varies a lot.

I guess what we could argue is Molt and Toxic Lash both being 50 Energy is a outline from the norm. Perhaps Molt is so cheap because the default EHP that it has before it absorb is pitiful amount. Or the fact that the so much complained speed bonus only last five seconds default compared to volts team-wide ten second default duration is the reason.

What about Toxic Lash, why does that only cost 50 energy you say? 
Well first off the order of ability's does not dictate cost, it is a common thing that the first ability is the cheapest, the second ability cost slightly more and the third ability cost even more than the second one and last but not least the fourth ability cost the most. However there are plenty of other frames where this is not true so Saryn is hardly the only one.

But the reason it cost so little is, despite what people always assume spreading spore is not something the game does by itself. You have to actively work on it or they will simply fall off, and anyone who play Saryn know that letting spore fall off is devastating on the generation of spore damage, something that will eventually happen because when the so called scenario where everything dies occurs guess what, this is when Spore have reached critical mass and despite what a lot of people think spore does not automatically stay there, it losses 20% Value instantly, and then 10% value every 0.5 second until you manage to re-spore. And this is something that Toxic Lash help with this since any damage done by weapons affected by Toxic Lash will guarantee spore spread.

 

There are plenty of post where people complain about ability dependency on a frames ability, and that is literary how Saryn is designed, the main outlier is that while you are bullet jumping trying to find new targets and cast spore on them, strike enemies afflicted by spore while you keep toxic lash up, Cast molt when in danger or Cast Miasma to cripple foes health you are not thinking that most of her kit would be worthless if they did not synergies because you are pretty much occupied doing all of those things.

Not to mention she is built purely for killing. Nothing else. Other frames provide support or defense with some horde killing while Saryn is pure horde killing. And many enemies are immune to elemental effects and abilities. Which makes Saryn useless against them. You hardly see a trinity in missions, mostly cause she doesn’t kill huge hordes of enemies like most others. She is pure support. Inaros is common in survival, sometimes Loki, which can be a pain when those players refuse to kill the enemies quickly enough to drop life support. 

The objective in defense is to kill all the enemies in order to progress and to do that would require a frame like Saryn to kill them quickly if you plan to farm for relics. So there is no surprise if you find a Saryn in a defense. 

Funny how nearly every post is about a saryn encounter DURING A DEFENSE mission or ESO. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Kwikwilyaqa]

Why people make posts about Saryn over and over again with childish arguments?

Don't you guys realize that damage types that are broken since ever? Of course a garantide viral proc is over the top damage, because viral literally cut HP at half (besides the damage it causes). Saryn have toxin (that bypass shield), corrosive (that strips armor) and viral builded in her abilities - this is literally the holy trinity against all factions in the game. She only does not have Radiation and Slash to have all the damage types that are relevant in the game (gas is also relevant because it procs toxin clouds).

Now take Ember with heat. Is not only her abilities that are underwhelming - heat have low damage output overall and a deplorable CC attached as status proc (being effective only against some infested and a few grineer types - the irrelevant ones, because if you add armor to the equation heat can't do nothing against it). Slash in the other hand, being True damage, bypass shield and armor - and people call Maim the problem. The frames are not the damage the abilities output and how effective they are against the factions. Cold, Electric, Blast (all insignificant CC procs) and Magnetic (effective only against the players)... all practically useless in overall gameplay with very few niche uses. Same goes to impact (minor CC) and puncture (30% less dmg) compared with Slash.

What is broken is the damage types and status procs, not frames or abilities that are builded around them (and every rework make them worse because the system is rotten from the inside). Any reworked damage type will reflect in "elemental" frames immediately. This post in a distant future maybe is about Frost because cold was buffed to the point that it almost broke the game... but, again, they will be talking about Frost and not cold or balance...

Edited September 29, 2019 by Kwikwilyaqa

[Xepthrichros]

6 hours ago, DawnFyreSon said:

So you are just going to ignore that ESO is a thing, and she is the single best frame there? Last time I leeched ESO (from a saryn btw, because no point trying when a frame can do it all) the enemies were level 100+ and saryn was pretty much killing them on spawn, even when they were grineer.

It seems its you who is focusing on on false claims. We are not talking about level 30 enemies, because at that point there are alternatives to killing huge hordes like volt, and to a lesser degree maimquinox. It seems you havent really been reading the posts just skimming them. You keep rehashing the same elitist arguments without addressing any of the points raised.

Explain this:

1. Why does Saryn get to have a 50%(!) speed buff, same as volt, making her an A-tier speedframe?

2. Why does Saryn get to apply the two best status effects in this game, when every other nuke frame gets its damage deleted by armor (GL hitting ESO lv8 with volt with only one CP in your squad)

3. Why does Saryn get to have the cheapest ability costs in the game? When a Volt needs to run ESO he really needs to have an EV trin unlike Saryn who can just solo carry all of it.

And ESO is just an example. So no we are not talking about starchart trash.

Ok then. Propose the alternative

You want her to be slow? Have bad statuses? Expensive ability costs?

So literally unplayable? 

And supposing even if you don't nerf her all the way, and just leave her as a mediocre nuke frame, comparable with the rest, then the question next will be. Why should I build her then? The other nuke frames blueprints can be obtained more easily in dojo, or other planets in the star chart that are before Sedna. If I have to go all the way to Sedna to get her, and she doesn't have anything new to offer, then, why the heck should I farm her, besides being mastery fodder like much of the new warframes released lately?

And also, about ESO. In most public games, people tend to leave at zone 2, and sometimes even zone 1, when there is NO saryn around. Because nobody wants to dawdle around 60-80% efficiency with a bunch of "trihard i wan muh fun" players using subpar equipment and getting subpar affinity.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Xepthrichros
Better clarity

[TenebraeAeterna]

On 2019-09-28 at 5:52 AM, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

The one major reason I use a pure power strength build on my rhino is to apply a 206% roar all teammates, including Saryn, to destroy all enemies and farm for the resources or relics we need/want. I wouldn’t be holding the amount of platinum I currently have if I just stood back and watch all the Valkyrs and Inaroses run around slowly picked off one enemy at a time.

I actually find “fun” in real teamwork such as combining abilities together to accomplish a goal as quickly as possible, as efficiently as possible, for the soul purpose of farming resources and relics. Not “okay the valkyr gets the north corner, the Inaros gets the south, the Excalibur gets the west, and wukong you get the east. Okay everybody let’s complete this mission and farm for relics as slowly as possible”.

So I’ll say it again. Y’all want “fun” slowly picking off enemies, then play solo, find friends, or go to recruit. Cause DE is not gonna keep making it harder and hard to grind and farm for everybody else just cause a few newbies make “what about me” complaints. 

Don’t like the grind then go play a game that isn’t grindy. 

I don't think you understand what people are talking about.

The situation you're talking about is great, the entire team synergzing with one another to maximize efficiency. That's not the issue, it's a Saryn nuking everything themselves. As I stated previously, it's pretty silly to tell players that they shouldn't expect to play the game until the last 10% of it. This isn't a walking simulator, it's a combat oriented game. If there's no combat for the rest of the team...well, you should get the point. If you don't, you're being intentionally obtuse. Like I said though, I've only come across this situation a couple of times...but I can fully understand people getting extremely annoyed if they encounter it more often than I have. I never would have stuck with the game if most of my matches ended up like the one match I spoke of previously. If it's an issue other people encounter often, and the dev team would know through internal data, then I think the best solution would be what I spoke of previously...where a system was implemented for random sorting that would give people who've been matched with Saryn players a breather during matchmaking. Then you don't need a nurf, you just give players a break from being randomly matched with people who are typically wiping the entire map...thus alleviating the burnout. Disable the system at off-hours and make it so teaming up, obviously, doesn't factor in the system.

[Xepthrichros]

On 2019-09-28 at 1:59 AM, TenebraeAeterna said:

 

Translation:

"Wait until Eidolons, Orb Mother fights, and Arbitration if you want to play the game." Which is, basically, what you said in your previous post.

Yes, that is a very absurd statement to make.

Your Rhino requires you to actually be around the enemies you're killing, not half-way across the map. I wouldn't know anything about Vauban...because I have never seen one played and hear that he's utter garbage now. I have him waiting in the foundry though...so I'll eventually mess around with him. Can't speak on him though...as I've literally never seen him played.

Some of the rest of your rant I actually agree with, but the issue with this is that Syran isn't restricted to top-end content and what you are saying to anyone below top-end content is, "You don't get to play until the last 10% of the game. Deal with it." Once again, yes...that is a very absurd statement to make. Fun is subjective. It's not fun to stand around for 90% of the game and watch other players do everything for you either. You might as well not even be playing the game, at that point. It may have been fun for you to do that, but there's a fair share of people out there who actually want to play the game for more than 10% of it.

I'm fairly new to the game... I started a long time ago, but quit before even completing the tutorial because I just couldn't get into it...hence why I have a Loki as my starter, as finishing the tutorial recently gave me my first pick from way back when, instead of the Volt I chose this time around. Got all the planets unlocked, got this season of Nightwave finished, came in a little while after this season started. Got Syran recently, haven't leveled her yet and completed the entire main story with only a few of the side quests to do.

The only frame I've ever seen do what I've described in my previous post is Syran. Thankfully, I haven't experienced it very often...so it was a novelty to me, something I found to be amusing. If, however, my experience with the game would have been encountering more Syran players...I probably would never stuck around because of how boring that match was. The humor only lasts so long...which is likely why the one guy in that match seemed slightly aggravated, as I suspect he had dealt with this sort of thing more often than the rest of us.

That said, this is all based off theory too.

It was a novelty for me and I've only had this situation happen a couple of times. What I'm saying is based off the possibility of it happening to people often. That doesn't mean it does, which is something they can monitor internally via data. This might not even be a problem for ANYONE. I don't know. What I'm saying is that I could easily see a problem for players if it's happening to them often, that they're being matched up with Syran players.

What's a fix that wouldn't require a nurf? (As stated, I don't like nurfs in general.)

Random match-ups factor in how many times you've been matched with a Syran player and actively seek to avoid matching you up with them too often...or matching you up with too many Syran players that have been tagged as heavy nukers. That would probably work... Off-hours would disable the system if there weren't many players online, and grouping up directly wouldn't factor in the system at all.

That would probably work just fine...if there's even a problem to begin with.

...but telling people that they shouldn't expect to play 90% of the game because you like your nuking power is absurd, you have to understand that.

Oh yeah, because balancing the game around level 1 enemies is great game design. /s 

As said before, why bother leveling up if the experience throughout is more or less the same. Even in dark souls you can level up and from a higher level, absolutely one shot enemies, including bosses. And this comparison is relevant to warframe cos warframes oneshot enemies too. 

But ok, seems like you are not ridiculous as some others. You just want matchmaking fixes. Unfortunately, your ignorance is showing. People have suggested that before, and it was rejected, and DE themselves want to force everyone to play together for some weird reason. To me, due to conflicting playstyles, this is just annoying people and triggering calls for nerfs and counters to such calls, and arguments, all day long, but some people want this to remain so.

I have personally suggested difficulty slider for EVERYTHING, from star chart enemies to orb mothers. Because clearly some people want their little defense missions on Saturn or Sedna to be difficult and interactive (as much as that makes me roll my eyes). Included in my suggestion idea:
- Difficulty settings ranging from "Easy" to "Hell" mode.
- Normal mode also exists - this is the game as it is currently with no modifications. 
- Make nukers weaker on "Hell" setting by way making enemies tankier, spawning more challenging enemy types, and warframe energy becomes less available. This applies even to places like Hydron
- Make even Eidolons and Orb Mothers easier on "Easy" setting and allow nuker abilities to work on them, but not at full damage. Maybe 30% damage.
- Reward playing on harder difficulties with having the drop rates or chances for certain loot is buffed. Meaning if a certain gun blueprint has 2% drop chance in Normal mode, then in Hell mode, the drop chance goes to up to 4% or higher.
- Playing on easier mode means the chance is lower, maybe from 2%, it is dropped to 1%. But never 0% so people still have a chance at getting it at easy mode.

Result? People trashed that idea too saying:
- Difficulty sliders are "things of the past" and "developers have moved away from it". Which I still consider a bunch of bullocks, I bought 4 new games this year and all of them involve difficulty sliders, not to mention other games in the past few years.
- What if nobody plays hard mode? Well, then you have your answer. If you find nobody joining you when you choose difficult modes, maybe indeed nobody likes the way you play, you are the minority, and you still ask for nerfs and impose your desires on others. And if the devs made setting just for you, turns out nobody wants to play your setting. Too bad for you. Though admittedly this is my hostile bias speaking. With a difficult setting, there is also a very good chance a new wave of players comes along and plays the game just on Hell mode only. So, while the introduction of the mode may initially be unpopular, maybe in a few weeks or months, a new population of Hell only players will spring up and play the game like this all the time.

Additionally, DE just created a new mod chance booster so there we go, instead of having better chance at good loot via way of difficulty sliders, they just made a pay to win option. 

 

Anyway, I can see you really don't know much (based on how you don't even have a Rhino), and have a rather weird gameplay experience where you don't see nukers. I don't know what region you live in. But assuredly, when I play in Asia, it is common to see Saryns or another nuker speeding things up. And most of the time, players stay instead of leave. So this shows that most people are okay with efficiency or even prefer it. To nerf or rebalance things just so a small percentage of people who want to have "something to shoot", is still absurd. This is like sacrificing the majority's preference to appease the minority. Translated to cash. Sacrifice most of your profit to win the profit of a few. Bad idea. Bad business. Absurd. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

My absolute favorite Saryn build i've created had only 40% power strength, and her Spores augment. 

It was beautiful. She gave about 40% additional corrosive damage to allies and could spread her corrosive and viral endlessly, allowing her allies to handle anything they came against without her doing all of the direct killing. 

Her corrosive may only be great against armor, but viral+toxic+weapon damage works well enough against everyone. She doesn't need to be handle it all herself. 

[TenebraeAeterna]

16 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Oh yeah, because balancing the game around level 1 enemies is great game design. /s 

That's a nice straw-man ya got there.

16 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

As said before, why bother leveling up if the experience throughout is more or less the same. Even in dark souls you can level up and from a higher level, absolutely one shot enemies, including bosses. And this comparison is relevant to warframe cos warframes oneshot enemies too. 

This isn't Dark Souls, it's a multiplayer game.

16 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

But ok, seems like you are not ridiculous as some others. You just want matchmaking fixes. Unfortunately, your ignorance is showing. People have suggested that before, and it was rejected, and DE themselves want to force everyone to play together for some weird reason. To me, due to conflicting playstyles, this is just annoying people and triggering calls for nerfs and counters to such calls, and arguments, all day long, but some people want this to remain so.

Well, yeah...I tend to favor alternative methods of fixing a solution over nurfing. Normally, I tend to want other aspects of the game brought up to par with the competition...but, in this case, the issue is that Saryn is capable of taking the entire point of the game away...so bringing the other frames up to par don't fix anything, just make more problems. If DE has turned the notion of matchmaking down, then I don't see any other method of fixing the problem for anyone who ends up in this situation too often.

Again, this isn't a walking simulator. If that's 90% of the game for people, they're not going to stick around for that 10% at the end.

16 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I have personally suggested difficulty slider for EVERYTHING, from star chart enemies to orb mothers. Because clearly some people want their little defense missions on Saturn or Sedna to be difficult and interactive (as much as that makes me roll my eyes). Included in my suggestion idea:
- Difficulty settings ranging from "Easy" to "Hell" mode.
- Normal mode also exists - this is the game as it is currently with no modifications. 
- Make nukers weaker on "Hell" setting by way making enemies tankier, spawning more challenging enemy types, and warframe energy becomes less available. This applies even to places like Hydron
- Make even Eidolons and Orb Mothers easier on "Easy" setting and allow nuker abilities to work on them, but not at full damage. Maybe 30% damage.
- Reward playing on harder difficulties with having the drop rates or chances for certain loot is buffed. Meaning if a certain gun blueprint has 2% drop chance in Normal mode, then in Hell mode, the drop chance goes to up to 4% or higher.
- Playing on easier mode means the chance is lower, maybe from 2%, it is dropped to 1%. But never 0% so people still have a chance at getting it at easy mode.

Result? People trashed that idea too saying:
- Difficulty sliders are "things of the past" and "developers have moved away from it". Which I still consider a bunch of bullocks, I bought 4 new games this year and all of them involve difficulty sliders, not to mention other games in the past few years.
- What if nobody plays hard mode? Well, then you have your answer. If you find nobody joining you when you choose difficult modes, maybe indeed nobody likes the way you play, you are the minority, and you still ask for nerfs and impose your desires on others. And if the devs made setting just for you, turns out nobody wants to play your setting. Too bad for you. Though admittedly this is my hostile bias speaking. With a difficult setting, there is also a very good chance a new wave of players comes along and plays the game just on Hell mode only. So, while the introduction of the mode may initially be unpopular, maybe in a few weeks or months, a new population of Hell only players will spring up and play the game like this all the time.

Additionally, DE just created a new mod chance booster so there we go, instead of having better chance at good loot via way of difficulty sliders, they just made a pay to win option. 

If I understand you correctly, you mean something to the effect of a Easy, Normal, Nightmare, etc mode for each mission on every planet? I mean, I wouldn't be opposed...but it would be a bit more convoluted than matchmaking, I think. Granted, if it was designed well enough...it could be as smooth as butter. Guess it really depends.

17 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Anyway, I can see you really don't know much (based on how you don't even have a Rhino), and have a rather weird gameplay experience where you don't see nukers.

I have Rhino. Not Rhino Prime, but Rhino.

I main Wisp.

I see nukers, they just don't usually clear the entire map instantaneously.

17 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I don't know what region you live in.

USA.

17 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

But assuredly, when I play in Asia, it is common to see Saryns or another nuker speeding things up.

Again, speeding things up isn't really what's being talked about. It's literally turning the game into a walking simulator for the rest of the team. As stated, I haven't come across this situation often, personally, but if I had...I probably wouldn't remained playing. So, I can sympathize with people who may be getting themselves teamed up with too many Insta-nuke Saryns.

17 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

So this shows that most people are okay with efficiency or even prefer it.

That's like saying people who stand in line at the DMV must enjoy it because they stay in line.

It's a means to an end, the fact that they didn't leave for the match doesn't necessarily mean they enjoyed standing around.

17 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

To nerf or rebalance things just so a small percentage of people who want to have "something to shoot", is still absurd. This is like sacrificing the majority's preference to appease the minority. Translated to cash. Sacrifice most of your profit to win the profit of a few. Bad idea. Bad business. Absurd. 

I do not think the majority want a walking simulator, that's silly. If they did, they would be playing a walking simulator...rather than a blatantly combat-oriented game. You're jumping through hoops here. As for a nurf, I don't want to see a nurf either...though it's saddening to see that the team waved off a better matchmaking system, as it leaves really only one option if they do find this to be a problem internal data. Again...this might not even be an issue, but I do see a lot of complaints about it and I can easily see why, judging from the few times I've stumbled upon it myself.

[Miyabi-sama]

1 час назад, TenebraeAeterna сказал:

I do not think the majority want a walking simulator, that's silly. If they did, they would be playing a walking simulator...rather than a blatantly combat-oriented game. You're jumping through hoops here. As for a nurf, I don't want to see a nurf either...though it's saddening to see that the team waved off a better matchmaking system, as it leaves really only one option if they do find this to be a problem internal data. Again...this might not even be an issue, but I do see a lot of complaints about it and I can easily see why, judging from the few times I've stumbled upon it myself.

Are you sure you're not overexagerrating? Not even a bit?

Perhaps the only way I walk in this game is on the Orbiter or in Captura. Rest of the time I spend in the fast paced action looter-shooter. There is no way one cannot simply snatch a dozen of kills from a solo Saryn, if we are not taking in account enemies below Uranus levels.

The problem is either ~20% of annoyed players play walking simulator, or 100% of players have a nerfed Saryn, who loses her glorious DoT damage and turns in just another debuff frame.

The stakes are very very high, both times Saryn got a rework (not nerf) made people upset for years. The amount of backlash will be way more than one puny forum topic.

And in the end someone said here if Mag had those elementals of Saryn... But I honestly guarantee can wreck Grineer on Hydron with my balanced build Mag up to wave 10. After wave 10 can still do that but will face energy problems. Still, people are coming in my sessions and barely do any crap, leaving me with 50% of team overall damage most of the time while I am not even sweating or trying hard.

[Xepthrichros]

5 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

This isn't Dark Souls, it's a multiplayer game.

Actually Dark Souls also has multiplayer. If you don't know something, don't try to rebut from ignorance. And the point here is, not so much multiplayer or single player, but that for a game that is often reported as being challenging, it still allows for many ways to cheese. And warframe has cheese aplenty too, that's the comparison.

5 hours ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

rather than a blatantly combat-oriented game.

Once you obtained stronger gear, at a certain point, star chart enemies are no longer "Combat". They are just walking planks of wood. And yet this is not a flaw. This is a normal part of RPG level progression. You get equipment that's strong, low level enemies start to mean nothing. You become either so tanky, or even your gun and melee deal enough damage to one-shot everything and soak up non-stop enemy fire and still be alive. In fact, weapon damage is the main game at high level play, capable of one-shotting bosses. So, should we nerf all the guns because one or two veterans with maxed out guns with the best riven, is quickly finishing off an Eidolon, depleting the various phases of health, before that 1 newb Eidolon player that randomly joined that game, can get a chance to shoot? And we listen to that newb eidolon player who complained about only being able to do 2% damage and says unfair? No, that's backwards logic. You are punishing the veteran for farming thousands of hours, to gain his strength, just to accommodate the new player for them to "have something to shoot". This is unfair to the veteran who invested way more time and effort and perhaps even money to obtain this one-shot capability, just because a selfish newbie who may not even spend a dime, complains. Then again, most normal newbies just marvel at the veteran and proceed to start farming and spending money themselves, so they become as powerful as the veteran. It's the minority of weird "muh interactivity" players that just want to nerf everything in this game, and slow down everything, in a game where you have to kill the same boss, or run the same mission 200 times, to get the loot you want.

But I am digressing into the high level play stuff. So with fodder enemies, we all know we can tank their damage with no fear of death, and we can also slaughter them in a second with any gun or melee. This already = no challenge = brain dead target practice. Now, we have options: We can shoot them one by one and fall asleep from boredom. Or we can nuke so this boring mission gets over quickly and we move on with our lives, and do something else in warframe that doesn't make  us sleep. Normal people choose nukes to get it over with quickly. Also, thanks to nukes, the mission often is done in under 10 minutes, or even 5 minutes... and usually it's about 2-3 minutes for the games I have. So actually, even if you are one of those "muh interactivity" people, but you are reasonable and have SOME patience, you'd be able to think "ok I can't kill much now but it's just 2 minutes, and then I'll re-roll with a different party of public players, and maybe then I kill something"

I get that some people advocate nerfs or intentionally use subpar gear to get "interactivity". To me, these folks are pretty much the "level 1 challenge" players in other games. In those games, such people intentionally do not level up, and limit themselves cos they want to feel difficulty and challenge. Difference is, most of these level 1 challenge players in other games have good sense to know that playing at level 1 is their personal preference and don't impose it on others by telling the developers to delete the level up system from the game. Warframe, on the other hand, has level 1 players telling people to nerf the entire world around their expectations and that's nonsensical. And they argue it is a team game and they have a right to play. Uh huh, and your "Right to play" is apparently higher than the rest of the team that like to nuke? Or your team mates who just can't be bothered to deal with planks of wood and want it to be over fast? Or the people that want power fantasy and actually find it enjoyable to see 100 enemies die at the press of a button? Who are you and why are you so special? Level 1 challenge runners are usually the minority in any game community. Most people want to experience the game for all it offers and all the nukes included, not intentionally hamstring themselves - and more so, not get some developer nerfing them just cos some "muh challenge" "muh interactivity" guy screamed too loudly and too often for his minority opinion to be dictated to the rest. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Loza03]

On ‎2019‎-‎09‎-‎28 at 10:52 AM, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

The one major reason I use a pure power strength build on my rhino is to apply a 206% roar all teammates, including Saryn, to destroy all enemies and farm for the resources or relics we need/want. I wouldn’t be holding the amount of platinum I currently have if I just stood back and watch all the Valkyrs and Inaroses run around slowly picked off one enemy at a time.

I actually find “fun” in real teamwork such as combining abilities together to accomplish a goal as quickly as possible, as efficiently as possible, for the soul purpose of farming resources and relics. Not “okay the valkyr gets the north corner, the Inaros gets the south, the Excalibur gets the west, and wukong you get the east. Okay everybody let’s complete this mission and farm for relics as slowly as possible”.

So I’ll say it again. Y’all want “fun” slowly picking off enemies, then play solo, find friends, or go to recruit. Cause DE is not gonna keep making it harder and hard to grind and farm for everybody else just cause a few newbies make “what about me” complaints. 

Don’t like the grind then go play a game that isn’t grindy. 

"Y'all want "fun" going as efficiently as possible, then go play solo, find friends, or go to recruit. Cause DE is not gonna keep making it harder and hard to play and have pub team missions for everybody else just cause a few newbies make "what about me" complaints".

See how pointless that line of reasoning is? How just saying "just play solo, stop letting me have my fun in pubs" is so easily turned against everyone and so doesn't actually support any given stance? Arguing developer intent doesn't work either - DE can and has made things harder to grind, as well as easier to grind. They've made things for team players and not for team players. Saying "this is how the devs want it" is, in most cases, relies on reasoning and evidence that's equally as vague and equally as reversible. At the end of the day, it comes down to a simple fact. Everyone wants to have their fun in pubs. You like to have your fun being efficient, other people like to have their fun with teamwork.

Simply put, the devs should aim to accommodate as many ways people find fun at once in order to enable this, and not let one group - in this case, people who want to run as efficiently  as possible - be able to take over and the fun away from everyone. If the roles were reversed, and things were only efficient to grind if you needed a super-precise, meta group where if even one person is doing their own thing the whole mission was ruined from your perspective, you'd probably either not be here, or be complaining that grinding isn't fun in this game, and people would be saying "Don't like a fun casual game, go play a game that isn't casual".

[Xepthrichros]

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

You like to have your fun being efficient, other people like to have their fun with teamwork.

If your teamwork doesn't produce efficiency at low level enemies, you are 4 headless chickens not knowing what you are doing. Wasting time, shooting at things which are zero threat anyway and just pretending you actually felt a challenge. It's kinda laughable. 

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

in this case, people who want to run as efficiently  as possible - be able to take over and the fun away from everyone.

If this group is somehow dominating, then maybe its because its popular, and your less efficient ways of play is not.

You know what? How about you go face the reality of your unpopular views. Please go recruiting now and try to invite people to your game by saying "No nukers allowed". Lets see how long that takes to recruit. Cos I know when I recruit and ask for nukers, the response is almost instant. This is an overt expression of an implied desire of this community, they prefer efficiency. If you want slower ways of play, which you think is "fun", realize you are the minority and stop shoving your view down everyone's throats, other people have other ways of "fun" and they outnumber you. 

Actually, I know you will never do what I suggest because you do not want to confront the reality of your unpopular opinion. I did it for you. I went to recruit. "LF/H ESO, no nuke frames please" and also for Hydron. Result? 5 minutes of silence. Meanwhile, I see other people all asking for Nuke or generally meta frames for their games and their teams are all filling up. 

Furthermore, I've seen some people complain elsewhere that the game is grindy, while also not using nuke frames. The nuke frames are literally DE giving you that farming booster built into a skill, the press 4 ability, and instead you all opt to not use it. And even ask for nerfs. So utterly illogical. 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

If your teamwork doesn't produce efficiency at low level enemies, you are 4 headless chickens not knowing what you are doing. Wasting time, shooting at things which are zero threat anyway and just pretending you actually felt a challenge. It's kinda laughable. 

If this group is somehow dominating, then maybe its because its popular, and your less efficient ways of play is not.

You know what? How about you go face the reality of your unpopular views. Please go recruiting now and try to invite people to your game by saying "No nukers allowed". Lets see how long that takes to recruit. Cos I know when I recruit and ask for nukers, the response is almost instant. This is an overt expression of an implied desire of this community, they prefer efficiency. If you want slower ways of play, which you think is "fun", realize you are the minority and stop shoving your view down everyone's throats, other people have other ways of "fun" and they outnumber you. 

Actually, I know you will never do what I suggest because you do not want to confront the reality of your unpopular opinion. I did it for you. I went to recruit. "LF/H ESO, no nuke frames please" and also for Hydron. Result? 5 minutes of silence. Meanwhile, I see other people all asking for Nuke or generally meta frames for their games and their teams are all filling up. 

Furthermore, I've seen some people complain elsewhere that the game is grindy, while also not using nuke frames. The nuke frames are literally DE giving you that farming booster built into a skill, the press 4 ability, and instead you all opt to not use it. And even ask for nerfs. So utterly illogical. 

I’ve given up trying to reason with these people. I try to understand their point of view but that requires being pretty selfish to do and I’m not a selfish person. Me and like 7 other guys have played this game for a while and we hardly use Saryn but when one of us does, the rest of us basically support it. Many arbitrations were successful due to a Rhino Buffed Saryn taking out majority of the enemies and leaving the drones and more annoying to kill enemies left for us to get rid of. 

Only time a Saryn has been a problem for us is during a defense fissure mission. The Saryn would nuke the map before the guys were fissured thus leaving us with not enough reactant to open relics. 

I made a post about speeding up the fissuring process in defense missions to avoid this issue and I was told to “play solo”. Like these trolls don’t know how relics and fissures works. The more players, the more relics, the more prime parts to choose from. 

Most of these trolls don’t even try to provide an alternative. The few that do are basically asking for a whole new different game. Might as well go play a different game that is not grindy. But they don’t care. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Morticoccus]

On 2019-10-01 at 10:21 AM, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

I’ve given up trying to reason with these people. I try to understand their point of view but that requires being pretty selfish to do and I’m not a selfish person. Me and like 7 other guys have played this game for a while and we hardly use Saryn but when one of us does, the rest of us basically support it. Many arbitrations were successful due to a Rhino Buffed Saryn taking out majority of the enemies and leaving the drones and more annoying to kill enemies left for us to get rid of. 

Only time a Saryn has been a problem for us is during a defense fissure mission. The Saryn would nuke the map before the guys were fissured thus leaving us with not enough reactant to open relics. 

I made a post about speeding up the fissuring process in defense missions to avoid this issue and I was told to “play solo”. Like these trolls don’t know how relics and fissures works. The more players, the more relics, the more prime parts to choose from. 

Most of these trolls don’t even try to provide an alternative. The few that do are basically asking for a whole new different game. Might as well go play a different game that is not grindy. But they don’t care. 🤷🏻‍♂️

And when anyone tries to argue that Saryn plays into the whole "efficient farming" paradigm, they cry that they are not allowed to do anything.

A team with 4 of these people is basically 4 people trying to outdo each other with their own streamlined kill builds instead of working together.

 

If you hate not having anything to do when paired with Saryn then play a frame that can support Saryn, and then you have things to do. Instead of crying about "muh DPS".

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

4 hours ago, Morticoccus said:

And when anyone tries to argue that Saryn plays into the whole "efficient farming" paradigm, they cry that they are not allowed to do anything.

A team with 4 of these people is basically 4 people trying to outdo each other with their own streamlined kill builds instead of working together.

 

If you hate not having anything to do when paired with Saryn then play a frame that can support Saryn, and then you have things to do. Instead of crying about "muh DPS".

A lot of players be trying to outperform the other. It’s like the majority of players are lone wolves for the most part but then we have these extremely greedy ones, slothful ones, and just straight up crybaby ones that act like the game revolves around them. 

I’m a type to f team player that tries to not only find the most efficient way to accomplish a mission for the purpose of farming(imagine being the only farmer in a village of like 100 people) but I try to also find some cool fun combinations as well. 

Like my fissured Nidus + a fissured Rhino + an equinox were able to achieve 1,898% rhino roar and by my calculations it could still get higher. But you won’t find a video of that because to achieve such a “godly” level requires TEAMWORK. Most videos are made by more lone wolf type players. The most teamwork you may find is during a Hydrolyst capture. 

A more fun combination I recently did was I created a Volt Shield and electrified it and used the augment to allow Gauss to pic it up and run over enemies and not only knock them down, but zap them to death. 

I also used the same method but with an atlas. The strength of Hercules, speed of Mercury, and shield of Zeus, you might as well be called Shazam. Lol

But when I farm for new primes, polarize weapons and frames, even help newbies obtain new frames, I try to use the most efficient builds and combos to get the job done. Even part of one of my fan concepts I’m trying to think of a new type of mission that requires a bit more skill than a simple “kill everything you encounter. Do not relent” mindset. 

But to completely nerf a frame because a few players feel left out of a SPECIFIC mission is definitely not the way to go. If DE made a mistake and didn’t fully calculate Saryn’s capabilities(similar to old chroma) and decided to correct it, I would understand. But to nerf because a few players demand it when they don’t fully understand how this game works is a whole other story.

I’m all for suggestions on what would be a better alternative FOR ALL players but so far no one can really provide one without demanding an entirely new game.  

Only thing I can think of is similar to Monster Hunter World, and that is to create 2 modes:

1). The normal mode that we currently are aware of.

2). An elite mode where all enemies of all planets are like level 60.

Only the sortie really provides such a level and the highest I’ve seen so far for regular missions is 50. But at least this way, with a higher and better rewarding system, the elite mode could be a way for more higher rank players to go all out. And once a newbie gets better and somewhat less selfish at the game then they could easily join the elites. 

With the exception of no life trolls, the elite mode would be a way to separate newbies from veterans(basically) without changing the entire game. And create a better challenge for higher rank players to “have fun” while still farming and grinding. 

But that’s just my opinion. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by (PS4)chris1pat8twins