Who are the most balanced Warframes in the game?

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

You must be new.

Yes i m new.

[JackHargreav]

45 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Ahh ok but i considered a balanced one a frame ables to be useful in both survival and defensive missions. If you mean survivability NIdus(on long terms) is superior to Inaros and for scaling you just need a maiming strike weapon with slash. If you speak about survivability even ivara can last longer.

As I said, Nyx. She's good for every content pretty much.

She has Cc, armor strip, and a really good tank with that augment.

Also i don't use maiming strike. And I'll never use it ever.

Btw for long survival there's Revenant. He can deal % dmg unlike any other frame.

[ShortCat]

6 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Yeah since enemies can scale up into the infinite and beyond, the most balanced frames are the ones that can also scale like that.

Except it is not intended for us to stay indefinetly in missions.

[JackHargreav]

35 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Except it is not intended for us to stay indefinetly in missions.

Says who? 

Especially with frames like Rev.

[Cubewano]

7 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Yeah since enemies can scale up into the infinite and beyond, the most balanced frames are the ones that can also scale like that.

Most effective =/= Most balanced

The point of infinite scaling (at least the general application) is to push players limits to a breaking point, having tools without breaking points is about as broken a logical match up as it gets, and balance wise is just extremely faulty and really only serves to invalidate the initial design/gameplay loop. I'd say most balance issues for the game are directly tied to the failure of moderation on this particular interaction. 

A properly balanced frame would be one that is able to actual fit that gameplay loop without rendering it entirely invalid, whether through being over or under tuned to the experience, which it does seem people understand since a lot of people's list compromise of under stated frames who can scale perfectly well and handle content within reason but aren't so unfathomable as say our big nukers that opposition is hardly ever seen much less felt.

Edit: I'd say frames like Nidus, Harrow, Trinity, Ivara, and the like are solid examples overall of more balanced frames in my opinion, they're all powerful by their own right, but not overwhelmingly so that everything becomes effortless into infinity (though i guess there is a mild exception for covert dagger ivara but that's a more specific debate)

Edited September 28, 2019 by Cubewano

[Atsia]

18 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Says who? 

Especially with frames like Rev.

DE themselves? They said (on multiple occasions IIRC) they don't particularly like or want to incentivize endless missions.

[JackHargreav]

26 minutes ago, Atsia said:

DE themselves? They said (on multiple occasions IIRC) they don't particularly like or want to incentivize endless missions.

I guess that nw 60 min survival challenge was just a typo then.

[JackHargreav]

43 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Edit: I'd say frames like Nidus, Harrow, Trinity, Ivara, and the like are solid examples overall of more balanced frames in my opinion, they're all powerful by their own right, but not overwhelmingly so that everything becomes effortless into infinity (though i guess there is a mild exception for covert dagger ivara but that's a more specific debate)

And what frames I brought up?

Nyx and Revenant. But I could bring up Zephyr, Inaros and valkyr too.

Non of them are overwhelmingly powerful. They can stay alive easily but they can't just dps the S#&$ out of everything. Still these frames can go really far, even the frames you mentioned are more than capable to go for a really long time in a survival. Except maybe Harrow and Trin.

Edited September 28, 2019 by JackHargreav

[Enxchiol]

On 2019-09-24 at 5:16 PM, Imniscor said:

Of course you did not see, you are an undergeared player. Inaros with 9000 health + Adaptation + Arcane Guardian + Arcane Grace will never die because the health regen is based on MAX health and Inaros has plenty of it and will out regen anybody, even a 300% Power Strength Oberon...

Plus Inaros can buff his own armor using his 4 and with it you can reach up to 1k health REGEN per second on a 99.99% damage reduction character that has a 9000 health to cushion stuff.

At level 1113 my strategy is to kill enemies using Exodia Contagion + 400% DMG Riven. It will one shot enemies even at that level.

Back then, when the maximum possible damage was limited to 2.8 billion damage, I could do it very easily with many frames.
Since they nerfed the damage a few years ago, I can still do some pretty high damage with my Exodia Contagion.

I started playing this game in October 2012*, so don't mind my arrogance as a founder and alpha test player.

* Forum account was created separately back then and I created mine in Feb 2013.

I'm quite interested in how you're killing enemies at such level with Exodia Contagion. You simply do not kill enemies with damage alone at that level, let alone oneshot them. Are you using some other mechanic aswell, or is that strategy from some time ago when Exodia Contagion had that bugged interaction with Covert Lethality adding 100x damage?

[VentiGlondi]

Ivara is an absolute powerhouse of damage but she still requires aim and dies from being sneezed at.

She's probably the only damage frame that actually requires aiming. Everyone else is just "Hey I'm gonna quickly wipe out everything with my eyes closed"

Welp, I just remember Titania.

Wouldn't be it just swell if killing things required more skill than having a functional index finger?

Edited September 28, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[ShortCat]

16 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Says who? 

DE. Endless missions don't have a hard finish line, but instead utilize infinite scaling to push players out of the mission. This was a general design decision and should be a common knowledge at this point. You are free to challenge yourself and see how far you can go, but certain Frames/mechanics just bypass fail conditions and turn game sessions into a patience contest.

16 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Especially with frames like Rev.

Or Ivara, or Ash, or Nidus - Frames which just ignore general game rules, with CL dagger abuse or immortality. Naming an unblanced Frame is exactly what was not asked in this thread.

16 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

I guess that nw 60 min survival challenge was just a typo then.

How exactly does a 60min run invalidate the above stated approach?

[JackHargreav]

48 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

DE. Endless missions don't have a hard finish line, but instead utilize infinite scaling to push players out of the mission. This was a general design decision and should be a common knowledge at this point. You are free to challenge yourself and see how far you can go, but certain Frames/mechanics just bypass fail conditions and turn game sessions into a patience contest.

Or Ivara, or Ash, or Nidus - Frames which just ignore general game rules, with CL dagger abuse or immortality. Naming an unblanced Frame is exactly what was not asked in this thread.

How exactly does a 60min run invalidate the above stated approach?

Unbalanced in what sense. As far as i'm aware in every game you scale up to enemies. 

Which you don't really do, at least not in the traditional sense, but you can make the frames and weapons in such a way. Which from my point lf view is normal. Since otherwise the game would scale you like in any other game, if we didn't have the modding system. So those frames anything but broken.

Some frames don't scale but also those frames have a hard time on lvl 50 missions, like Titania. And those frames I just look at as terribly designed.

[ShortCat]

3 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Unbalanced in what sense. As far as i'm aware in every game you scale up to enemies. 

Which you don't really do, at least not in the traditional sense, but you can make the frames and weapons in such a way. Which from my point lf view is normal. Since otherwise the game would scale you like in any other game, if we didn't have the modding system. So those frames anything but broken.

I do not understand what you try to say with those lines, or to what part of my response those even relate.

5 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Some frames don't scale but also those frames have a hard time on lvl 50 missions

There are Frames that underperform, and then there are Frames that overperform, both of those groups are not balanced.

[JackHargreav]

Just now, ShortCat said:

I do not understand what you try to say with those lines, or to what part of my response those even relate.

There are Frames that underperform, and then there are Frames that overperform, both of those groups are not balanced.

I'm just explaining my view on balance.

U mentioned Ivara. But Ivara still a pretty balanced frame considering she can go for long runs but she also can die easily. 

I just don't take high level enemies as any sort of a cap. As for me the player should scale up to enemies. As I said of course we don't have traditional scaling but some frames can be used to do long runs with the right mods which kinda replaces that.

So for me a frame like Rev is not broken. He's well balanced since he can go up against anything. But also the risk of getting killed is still there. You have to pay attention for what your doing.

Unbalanced for me means a frame that can just stand in place taking damage and nuke lvl 300s while doing so. Or a frame that struggles to stay alive even on mid lvls like Titania.

[bibmobello]

14 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

I'm just explaining my view on balance.

U mentioned Ivara. But Ivara still a pretty balanced frame considering she can go for long runs but she also can die easily. 

I just don't take high level enemies as any sort of a cap. As for me the player should scale up to enemies. As I said of course we don't have traditional scaling but some frames can be used to do long runs with the right mods which kinda replaces that.

So for me a frame like Rev is not broken. He's well balanced since he can go up against anything. But also the risk of getting killed is still there. You have to pay attention for what your doing.

Unbalanced for me means a frame that can just stand in place taking damage and nuke lvl 300s while doing so. Or a frame that struggles to stay alive even on mid lvls like Titania.

Someone already told this: "Balanced" doesn't fkn means it can do 10 hours survival alone aor it can't die by 100 level 9999 bombards. Balanced means a frame able to do well in almost any kind of missions and no Ivara can't because it's too slow for some kind of solo  missions like  target defence or excavations and even interception after the sound arrow nerf . She has even problems against infested because it's full of parasitic enemies there.  With the right build she can cover 3 far spots and kill enemies far away, with a duration build she can cover an hostage if the idiot would not run away like a retarded...  Anyway ivara has to be considered a swiss multitool knife.

Edited September 29, 2019 by bibmobello

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, JackHargreav said:

As for me the player should scale up to enemies.

But, this is neither intended nor incentivised by design, because...

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Endless missions don't have a hard finish line, but instead utilize infinite scaling to push players out of the mission.[...] You are free to challenge yourself and see how far you can go...

Those are 2 fundamentally different views,  built upon different foundations with different endgoals in mind.

 

[-Equi-]

Am 27.9.2019 um 10:51 schrieb JackHargreav:

Because i enthrall enemies and only after that i use reave or dance macabra on them. So in my case he needs a bit of time to kill enemies.

Yes it takes some time, but its on a good way like this. Not broken, not bad.