Umbra and the lack of warm up

[-GrT-kostasp99]

the mistake this game does is letting everyone get into missions that cannot complete with low lvl weapons, the first good step was with fortuna that didnt allow players get in that didnt complete lvl 5 on the syndicate that was awesome cause all you saw was MR20+ get in the missions and not mr1 just wondering around dont know what to do. the same block should plains had cetus syndicete lvl 5 to enter and unlock eidolons and plains. Protect the new player from frustrating and old players from missing newbies in the plains.

the only that must be fixed here is to put certain blocks so the player knows what to do and after he completes those steps can go into the mission easy so doesnt get frustrating

[MetalGrayFox]

How old is your son ? Are they the recommended 17+ mature age the game suggests, cos based on what I read, it sounds like they might not be 🤔

Anyway, "Extreme frustration in having to die repeatedly(NO gamer enjoys that)" - I mean, depends on the game first of all. Some games are designed around dying and learning from fights/boss fights. In other games, this continuous death can mean you are not ready for this part of the game, so go do some other content and power up. And when you think you are ready, come back and try again. 

 

Sounds like you are trying to rush your boy through the star chart for some reason, that's great for you guys, but ask yourself why? So they can do Arbitrations seems a weak reason, considering that's not really aimed at newer players. No real benefit in rushing through a proposed easier game to come to Arbitrations and have no sufficient gear to go the distance there as you were carried through everything beforehand and the solo quests were made super easy. 

The game is not difficult, it needs to be more difficult lol. Sure some guidance could be added to suggest what to do to power up your operator and amp, I 100% agree with that. Introducing a way to build an amp which does not involve using your weak amp against a boss you barely tickle with it is so necessary. The Eidolon loop of use mote amp vs teralyst so you can make a better amp to kill the same boss faster needs a step before it, a way to gear up for your first Eidolon fight which does not involve battling with the Eidolons. Not sure if and how that could happen, but this is clearly a not-great part of the game for players with only a mote amp and nobody to carry them through.   

 

[Yamazuki]

8 hours ago, Klaleara said:

2.  The Mote amp is trash.  Like, way more trash than it really needs to be.  Pretty sure a wet noodle literally does more damage.  I feel like it could definitely use a bump imo.

I feel like this is probably the bigger issue. I remember doing the quest a long time ago with Mote Amp too, and remembered just how bad it was last month when my GF got to the quest and also did it with the Mote Amp. There's just too much of a difference between Mote Amp and the first one you can actually make. It's not like getting a first amp is even one of the objectives while clearing the star chart and doing quests either.

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We can check some stats on this as well to see the quit rates in the fight vs Amp level, it's probably worth reviewing!

I'm not sure amp level is the right thing to compare quit rate to.  Amps, like all weapons don't get better stats as they rank up.  They get better stats after gilding, but that's not saying much in the case of the Mote.  If anything, seeing the quit rate of people with the Mote vs any other amp might be more revealing.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Mote amp is atrocious. This alone gives operators a terrible first impression. It's literally unusable even for a vet with all passives and arcanes unlocked. New player's should not get a starter amp that shoots like wet noodle and that runs out of energy after a second of firing it, it makes operators look weak and not fun to use, plus makes bosses like Harrow , Umbra and The Queen lame and frustrating.

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[AzureTerra]

19 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

The fact that its the starter Amp is not indication enough?

Maybe if the rest of them were not locked behind an obnoxious rep wall then more people would have better amps

Edited September 25, 2019 by AzureTerra
Amp not map

[Methanoid]

my main doesnt bother with amps/operators due to my intense dislike of mining and fishing so i only had the bog standard mote amp (which wasnt even max lvl for ages) i just put up with the annoyance given that the biggest annoying part lets you carry on forever and your terrible damage doesnt get repaired so you can just chip away small piece by piece.

But yeah i can see it being a major annoyance for relative newcomers, but thats warframe in a nutshell, its been like that for ages even when just starting out.

[Methanoid]

39 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Maybe if the rest of them were not locked behind an obnoxious rep wall then more people would have better maps

if they are like me, its the method required to get the parts, I am an old fart and i hate fishing/mining/etc, i can only imagine how much of a fun sucking experience it must be for younger kids who just want to run and gun, the only thing more boring doing it would be watching some poor streamer doing it on youtube or twitch.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

14 hours ago, Mysandwich said:

While I do agree there needs to be some indicator for newer players that the mote amp is trash, I have recently had a similar scenario in which I've been helping my GF get into the game (I created a second account in order to go through  the content with her) and it was fairly easy to get a 1-1-1 amp with which we had no problem taking care of Umbra. But without my prior knowledge of amps we probably would have ended up facing Umbra with the mote amp like I did when I first played and it was very frustrating. I think I remember sitting up on a ledge somewhere he couldn't reach and just whittled away at his shield.

Mote amp needs a buff. It shouldn't compete with the top tier crafted maps, but it shouldnt be useless either.

[(PSN)trontor]

16 hours ago, ThumpumGood said:

So he goes fail fail fail. Extreme frustration in having to die repeatedly(NO gamer enjoys that) in order to defeat Umbra with his gear.

[...]

Just a thought and Idea. What say you?

I agree. But IMHO the problem starts earlier. The last mission of the Chains of Harrow quest is already very frustrating with only a Mot Amp, an operator with 200 health and no health re-generation.
 

Several hundred hours of game time later this is all easy because I've got a 4-2-7 Amp, an operator with 650 Health, Rejuvenating Tides and Magus Replenish. The problem is as often that the game doesn't make it obvious to you that you should and how you can get these upgrades.

[(PSN)trontor]

16 hours ago, 844448 said:

I think it's better to bring your son hunting vomvalyst (vom-vom) and take it slowly instead of taking him all over the place

Hunting Vomvalysts with Ivara was how I got my 2-1-2 Amp, too. But most players don't even know that you can get a decent Amp this way. They probably join public Teralyst missions and hope to get carried until they get the cores for a decent Amp that way.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Stealth_Cobra:

Mote amp is atrocious. This alone gives operators a terrible first impression. It's literally unusable even for a vet with all passives and arcanes unlocked. New player's should not get a starter amp that shoots like wet noodle and that runs out of energy after a second of firing it, it makes operators look weak and not fun to use, plus makes bosses like Harrow , Umbra and The Queen lame and frustrating.

 

I've done all that with the mote amp and con only confirm that it was terrible. I could have built a better amp by than bt the fact that you had to either basically leech Eidolons or farm Vomvalysts or the Sentients on Lua made me think : Nope.

The Umbra fight was basically me abusing the operator "immortality" by shooting him with the amp, getting wrecked, immediately going back to spioler mode to shoot a bit just to get wrecked again and again and again. Harrow and second dream have been somewhat similar, but less atrocious.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Stuff like the Mk1 guns are excusable since they can be modded and are good enough to clear the early star chart, but you get the mote amp much much later in the game, and by the time you get it, you're facing again enemies that are barely affected by it. Although honestly, still think giving new players MK1 weapons is lame, as it's not like a regular Braton or Paris would break the balance, and it sucks to force new players to level, put catalysts and maybe forma trash-tier budget guns when you could give them their slightly better counterparts, which are still inferior versions of their prime counterparts. Just give noobs the real deals and keep Mk1 guns as cheap mr fodder (or just remove them and credit everyone the mastery).

Back to Mote Amp. Again, problem isn't the damage, but energy consumption. It's a beam weapon with a one second battery life and that takes like three seconds to recharge, and it's low damage means you can barely manage to kill a low level unarmored target before you have to recharge it. 

The fact it's useless for eidolons (main purpose of operators) doesn't help either, as you have to leech other people's runs for quite some time to upgrade to any other amp, all of which are at least usable. It's quite the grind to build that first amp, especially if you want a meta one.

Mote amp should be slightly worse than 1-1-1 , not unusable. It should probably have an alternate fire too.

Edited September 25, 2019 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[ThumpumGood]

18 hours ago, MetalGrayFox said:

How old is your son ? Are they the recommended 17+ mature age the game suggests, cos based on what I read, it sounds like they might not be 🤔

Anyway, "Extreme frustration in having to die repeatedly(NO gamer enjoys that)" - I mean, depends on the game first of all. Some games are designed around dying and learning from fights/boss fights. In other games, this continuous death can mean you are not ready for this part of the game, so go do some other content and power up. And when you think you are ready, come back and try again. 

 

Sounds like you are trying to rush your boy through the star chart for some reason, that's great for you guys, but ask yourself why? So they can do Arbitrations seems a weak reason, considering that's not really aimed at newer players. No real benefit in rushing through a proposed easier game to come to Arbitrations and have no sufficient gear to go the distance there as you were carried through everything beforehand and the solo quests were made super easy. 

The game is not difficult, it needs to be more difficult lol. Sure some guidance could be added to suggest what to do to power up your operator and amp, I 100% agree with that. Introducing a way to build an amp which does not involve using your weak amp against a boss you barely tickle with it is so necessary. The Eidolon loop of use mote amp vs teralyst so you can make a better amp to kill the same boss faster needs a step before it, a way to gear up for your first Eidolon fight which does not involve battling with the Eidolons. Not sure if and how that could happen, but this is clearly a not-great part of the game for players with only a mote amp and nobody to carry them through.   

 

1. He doesnt play if Im not playing.
2. Sometimes Im doing things that even carrying him wont work.
3. Opening the Map allows him to do all of the NW missions. (he has had a few where if the node is locked, it wony let you run the mission)
4. Sometimes I have to do things he cant go on. He generally sticks to lower level stuff but knew that was excal(he started with excal) and wanted the upgraded version. so he did the quest while I was doing something else.
5. He and I both learn games better with the sink or swim policy. I was MR5ish and pulled into an endless with clannies to NPC lv 300. This was when there were 3 deaths per day. Dragging him thru this is much easier on him than it was on me.
6. To be clear, with as stubborn as he is, Im less worried about him than I am about retaining new players. He gets over it and moves on  to the next challenge whereas I can see a lot of players giving up on the game. I dont want this to happen. I want to see MR 30 and the start of end game where the real challenges should begin,

 

[Krenlik]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Mote amp is atrocious. This alone gives operators a terrible first impression. It's literally unusable even for a vet with all passives and arcanes unlocked. New player's should not get a starter amp that shoots like wet noodle and that runs out of energy after a second of firing it, it makes operators look weak and not fun to use, plus makes bosses like Harrow , Umbra and The Queen lame and frustrating.

 

I still only have a (non-maxed) mote amp.   Yes, some quests were... challenging.  🙂

(I blame my desire not to do groups, especially in high-stress content, and certain content virtually requiring groups.)

Edited September 25, 2019 by Krenlik

[MetalGrayFox]

54 minutes ago, ThumpumGood said:

1. He doesnt play if Im not playing.
2. Sometimes Im doing things that even carrying him wont work.
3. Opening the Map allows him to do all of the NW missions. (he has had a few where if the node is locked, it wony let you run the mission)
4. Sometimes I have to do things he cant go on. He generally sticks to lower level stuff but knew that was excal(he started with excal) and wanted the upgraded version. so he did the quest while I was doing something else.
5. He and I both learn games better with the sink or swim policy. I was MR5ish and pulled into an endless with clannies to NPC lv 300. This was when there were 3 deaths per day. Dragging him thru this is much easier on him than it was on me.
6. To be clear, with as stubborn as he is, Im less worried about him than I am about retaining new players. He gets over it and moves on  to the next challenge whereas I can see a lot of players giving up on the game. I dont want this to happen. I want to see MR 30 and the start of end game where the real challenges should begin,

Fair, I think of these points I agree with 3 and still think the old alerts should exist alongside NW. It is sad to be locked out of weeklies and elite weeklies sometmies and not have an easy alternative route to get nightwave points or the things purchasable from the store. I guess the invasion thing is there for those who want to grind rep, seems too time consuming to be worth it imo. 
The other points seem more personal and your own philosophy on gaming, not saying they are not valid but considering their personal nature I just could not get behind them as strong reasons for the game to be made easier or changed. Perhaps we are on different paths, I still want an end-game and real challenges, but it seems everything just becomes easier with time instead. I think you gave a nice example yourself, went from 3 lives up to 5 revives now. Also I played most of the game unassisted in the beginning and I quite enjoyed that, learning things as I went along, so very different experiences there for us. Anyway, let's see how the new player experience unfolds over the next few months/years. I do pray it becomes more easier for players to navigate it unassisted and more focus is placed on the story quests and other areas which help newer players understand the core game. 
 

[ThumpumGood]

Just now, MetalGrayFox said:

Fair, I think of these points I agree with 3 and still think the old alerts should exist alongside NW. It is sad to be locked out of weeklies and elite weeklies sometmies and not have an easy alternative route to get nightwave points or the things purchasable from the store. I guess the invasion thing is there for those who want to grind rep, seems too time consuming to be worth it imo. 
The other points seem more personal and your own philosophy on gaming, not saying they are not valid but considering their personal nature I just could not get behind them as strong reasons for the game to be made easier or changed. Perhaps we are on different paths, I still want an end-game and real challenges, but it seems everything just becomes easier with time instead. I think you gave a nice example yourself, went from 3 lives up to 5 revives now. Also I played most of the game unassisted in the beginning and I quite enjoyed that, learning things as I went along, so very different experiences there for us. Anyway, let's see how the new player experience unfolds over the next few months/years. I do pray it becomes more easier for players to navigate it unassisted and more focus is placed on the story quests and other areas which help newer players understand the core game. 
 

Fair points.
On end game: The fact that we dont have MR 30 yet means there wont be end game for a while. Only 3 more MR to go, but that's still a long way off.
And DEFINITELY agree with, " I do pray it becomes more easier for players to navigate it unassisted and more focus is placed on the story quests and other areas which help newer players understand the core game. "  The whole post started with the fact that I was startled by how difficult and painful it actually was without focus and a good amp. And with that, the realization of how much we miss or forget from being at top MR and/or having it all. It's going to change my look at forum posts by newbies having issues for sure.
 

[5H4DE]

I mean, I also did the umbra fight without any focus unlocked and an un-gilded mote amp. Yea it was frustrating at first but nothing I'd quit over, got the hang of it after a bit and it became quite the easy fight even in that state.

[MetalGrayFox]

I was not aware MR30 was a point for end game to start being a focus. I think for now I have accepted it won't exist for some time to come in Warframe, and so seeking challenge elsewhere is fine for me. 

And yes, I understand the point of having basic nodes locked behind something like the pain point mentioned in your original post, perhaps quests overall need to be reviewed and things of this nature should not be on the path to unlocking the star chart. It's all very complex and that can be the most off-putting thing. Anyway, with some number crunching on DE's part for when new players are leaving we can only hope they will make some positive changes going forward. 

[ThumpumGood]

6 minutes ago, MetalGrayFox said:

I was not aware MR30 was a point for end game to start being a focus. I think for now I have accepted it won't exist for some time to come in Warframe, and so seeking challenge elsewhere is fine for me. 

And yes, I understand the point of having basic nodes locked behind something like the pain point mentioned in your original post, perhaps quests overall need to be reviewed and things of this nature should not be on the path to unlocking the star chart. It's all very complex and that can be the most off-putting thing. Anyway, with some number crunching on DE's part for when new players are leaving we can only hope they will make some positive changes going forward. 

That's not a bad idea but Im not sure they can do it with the Ropalolyst bing a part of the star chart and needing the node unlocked. However, I believe he was able to drop an extractor without the Rop so... could be doable.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

I had to really kite the hell outta umbra in that mission. I have a lot of game experience and others wont have that.

It was basically drain the mote into him, run around, drain mote again (doing like, what, 20 to 50 a tic?), run around, drain mote into him, rinse repeat, and all while getting killed a lot.

 

Now....it is important to note when you get killed repeatedly his armor/health doesn't go back to 100.

 

Cause I was getting killed repeatedly so I I'm glad I didnt have to deal with constantly going back to 100%

 

With that said, I personally thrive in the chaos so it was fun but I have to admit also frustrating.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Yea it's basically people in chat asking "why are you guys even here" while trying to get at least something for some standing so I can actually get a different amp. I know I was weak, that's why I used my own money to buy mods and formas to contribute something at least. 

 

One time all I had to offer was a 138% 30 sec Roar so I just ran around spamming that and popping energy pads.

 

Some people are nice though. They understand it's a vicious circle: you obviously cant get a better amp if you cant kill a teralyst.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

On 2019-09-24 at 7:44 AM, ThumpumGood said:

When I came back to the game, I was pretty well established. Most frames, all the important weapons, decent Amps. So doing Umbra wasn't an issue for me. Then I set up an account for my son and helped him thru a lot.

The situation: Trying to get the map opened for Arbitration and having to finsih all of the quests to be able to do the Flydolon. MR10, the Apostasy Prologue opens up. Mote Amp is 7, doesnt have focus yet buit does have a well set up Loki, Ignis Wraith and Sonicor(no kitguns yet). Me with being ahead of the curve when I did it, didnt realize the extreme difficulty of doing it in his position.

So he goes fail fail fail. Extreme frustration in having to die repeatedly(NO gamer enjoys that) in order to defeat Umbra with his gear. He did it but was ready to quit. I had to reassure him that nothing else in the game was this difficult.

So after relating all of this, Im looking at the very real possibility that we've lost players due to this frustration. My suggestion is that there be either a quest to get a real amp or adding a requirement that you make and lv an amp to 30 before you can do it. This gives the player the information that the Mote is too weak and that you need some focus established before you will be able to compete against Umbra. It also might end the players having to be carried in Eidolon farms because they dont have anything that will work against the eidolons with any success.

Just a thought and Idea. What say you?

Yup. 6 of my family joined. 3 joined before me.

4 quit because of mote amp vs umbra. 

My stepson got so frustrated, upset and discouraged. I had to put him on restriction for a day. Yeah, he finished it. It was after I gave him R3 replenish and lockdown. Not sure how he did it but I was mowing the lawn when he ran out to tell me. 

I had no issue but I'm a game addict lol. I play games better than I breath. I never have issues.

It's definitely hard enough to be discouraging especially when you don't know you are under equipped. 

Same for MR 9 test. 

[BDMblue]

Could it be made that the quest only becomes available after a new amp is made and levelled to 30?

[NovusNova]

Think I used Specters to distract him while chipping away with mote amp, was never that bothered with operator stuff.

At some point I’ll need to revisit and get better amps.