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[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

53 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

No, it's clear you're the one failing to grasp concepts here. You're thinking of the ideal scenario. The one that will never happen. So keep on dreaming, and hope reality doesn't slap you back down to Earth too hard.

Hey now dont reveal yourself so easily as the shadow-leader of the Riven Mafia by making threats like that 😂

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, FrostDragoon said:

Nobody buys this bull****, just so you know.

And your proof of that is?

Also, your proof that an auction house/trading house is? And don't say WoW, cause that's the one exception in a sea of MMOs with dead economies

[FrostDragoon]

Just now, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Hey now dont reveal yourself so easily as the shadow-leader of the Riven Mafia by making threats like that 😂

Oh, damn. Shots fired!

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Okay Economics isnt your strong suit, I see. You dont understand that Supply and Demand goes both ways. It will prevent people selling extremely cheap (market gets flooded, nobody buys) and will prevent price gouging on the high (to be "more expensive than Primed Chamber")

☝️Four words destroy this:

"Tragedy of the Commons."

AKA:

"Go back to class." 

1 hour ago, (PS4)True_Reclaimer said:

Big Brain Gang 2020

Would you be surprised to learn that Neanderthals had larger brains than modern humans, and Albert Einstein had a famously small brain? 

Explains a lot, doesn't it? 😛

11 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

And your proof of that is?

Also, your proof that an auction house/trading house is? And don't say WoW, cause that's the one exception in a sea of MMOs with dead economies

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer from that one. 

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

And your proof of that is?

Also, your proof that an auction house/trading house is? And don't say WoW, cause that's the one exception in a sea of MMOs with dead economies

In the first place, you don't get to say "Don't give the example I was asking for," and it's not an exception. Just because others have failed doesn't mean the concept did. Those other MMOs always have other issues too.

In the second place, let me point you to my reply to the same nonsense from a different user on the same topic in a different thread:

Spoiler

40 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

As for giving examples, I'll say a few things about that:

1) Google exists. Use it if you really want an example and aren't just making bad faith arguments. "Give examples" is usually a playground argument, the kind your future ex-girlfriend will use to make a stupid claim that everyone knows is false but is banking on how hard it actually is to cite hyper specific things about your relationship from memory--nevermind the fact that this is usually a distraction from the fact that their own argument holds no water whatsoever. When I tell people the information is out there and that they should look for it themselves, it's because they have the power to fix their own ignorance. They simply don't want to.

2) Not all good ideas have historical precedent. You think the Wright Brothers had any examples of people being able to fly? There were plenty of nay-sayers for that too, I guarantee it! Now international flight is a common and important part of modern life (at least on the macro scale).

3) "Give an example" is often a form of the Begging The Question fallacy, They assume that no examples exist or that those that do all have the same particulars as the point they want to make. Not only are the other examples rarely (if ever) an apples to apples comparison, but it is equally rare that externalities are accounted for.

4) Giving examples is mostly only useful for proving a point has some level of validity, not for disproving the validity of something. It's the "prove God doesn't exist" problem. Evidence generally points to the affirmation of something, rarely the denial of it, and even those denials hinge on other logical mechanisms to be true (such as the mutually exclusive nature of two potential truths--if one is true, the other cannot be).

There's plenty more I could say about it, but I think I've made my point.

 

That being said, I'm still happy to give you some other examples.

- Elder Scrolls Online does a multiple AH system to keep the economy decentralized and avoid some of the price fixing nonsense you lot are always so worried about. I'm not a fan of that particular flavor, but I have to admit it does work.

- DDO had a successful AH. Don't know how that game is doing these days because I quit like 5 years ago, but hey. It worked.

- SWTOR has a successful AH. It has other issues with the game, but the economy is fine.

- EverQuest is an ancient game that refuses to die, but it uses a multi-vendor AH system (called the Bazaar) that still works.

Hilariously, the opposite sort of thing happened in that game. As the game aged and the player base shrank, along with massive inflation due to bots and RMT, the value of items skyrocketed. WoW had something similar happen over time for similar reasons, but as has been stated ad nauseam, those games relied on in-game currency which made them susceptible to such things. Warframe relies on premium currency that you only generate from DE promos and cash purchases. Either way, you have to remember that those games are 10-20 years old, so that kind of inflation was inevitable anyway.

- Firefall was an excellent game that had a lot of development issues, but featured a dual AH--you can set prices with in-game currency or the premium currency. It was actually what originally got me into Warframe, as a matter of fact, because at the time they had a lot in common.

[FrostDragoon]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Four words destroy this:

"Tragedy of the Commons."

AKA:

"Go back to class."

Oh, speaking of neanderthals... He wants to cite an economic idea that relies on a zero sum assumption about finite resources as anti-capitalistic propaganda. Cute, except it doesn't really apply to Warframe in any reasonable sense.

[Uhkretor]

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

If we are talking resell of prime parts or riven mods then most would likely pull that gag, but when it comes to mods, ayatan statues, gems, fish, etc. the idea of them wanting to resell those for much more is kind of ridiculous in itself. Please do not over over-think particular elements.

Not overthinking it, just stating what they all want to do but can't do it.

1 hour ago, Avienas said:

Try to do a double read on what i post, i basically stated i would have multiple PMs up that i sent to various wtb messages, what i would do is i would keep each tab open, sometimes its only 5 to 10 minutes but if i am not getting alot of traffic despite having very CLEAR CUT filters to not interfere with most wtbs and what not, i can usually be a bit patient. Which helps we can use time stamps and what not.

Oh no, I read what you said. I just found it weird why you would wait so long without replies. I don't take that long even with multiple tabs.

[Gabbynaru]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Just because others have failed doesn't mean the concept did.

No, the concept didn't fail, but when so many things using that concept have failed, people being weary of it and considering it a terrible idea is a reasonable expectation, because precedent makes it clear that it is a risky and failure prone concept.

9 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

In the second place, let me point you to my reply to the same nonsense from a different user on the same topic in a different thread:

Yeah, okay... Have you considered that maybe I just want to be educated when asking for examples, and what better place to ask than someone who apparently knows this stuff that I'm asking examples for? You assuming ill intent doesn't mean inquiring about examples is something stupid. But if you're unwilling to provide them, just say that instead of acting like you're somehow better cause you have knowledge the other party doesn't.

13 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

That being said, I'm still happy to give you some other examples.

Good, thank you! See, I had no idea of those, because all the MMOs I've played had dead economies, and were using auction/trading houses. I've heard about WoW from someone once, but it was in passing. Now that you have put out those examples, why don't you educate people on why they work? Wouldn't that make your points and your support for this idea so much stronger?

[AureliusVarro]

il y a 10 minutes, Gabbynaru a dit :

No, the concept didn't fail, but when so many things using that concept have failed, people being weary of it and considering it a terrible idea is a reasonable expectation, because precedent makes it clear that it is a risky and failure prone concept.

Yeah, okay... Have you considered that maybe I just want to be educated when asking for examples, and what better place to ask than someone who apparently knows this stuff that I'm asking examples for? You assuming ill intent doesn't mean inquiring about examples is something stupid. But if you're unwilling to provide them, just say that instead of acting like you're somehow better cause you have knowledge the other party doesn't.

Good, thank you! See, I had no idea of those, because all the MMOs I've played had dead economies, and were using auction/trading houses. I've heard about WoW from someone once, but it was in passing. Now that you have put out those examples, why don't you educate people on why they work? Wouldn't that make your points and your support for this idea so much stronger?

WF has lots of prime parts and platinum sinks, like Baro or slots and cosmetics, so inflation(the problem behind most collapsing AH economies) wouldn't be more of a problem than it is now.

[FrostDragoon]

44 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

1. No, the concept didn't fail, but when so many things using that concept have failed, people being weary of it and considering it a terrible idea is a reasonable expectation, because precedent makes it clear that it is a risky and failure prone concept.

2. Yeah, okay... Have you considered that maybe I just want to be educated when asking for examples, and what better place to ask than someone who apparently knows this stuff that I'm asking examples for? You assuming ill intent doesn't mean inquiring about examples is something stupid. But if you're unwilling to provide them, just say that instead of acting like you're somehow better cause you have knowledge the other party doesn't.

3. Good, thank you! See, I had no idea of those, because all the MMOs I've played had dead economies, and were using auction/trading houses. I've heard about WoW from someone once, but it was in passing. Now that you have put out those examples, why don't you educate people on why they work? Wouldn't that make your points and your support for this idea so much stronger?

1. That's extremely fallacious. It's human nature, but it's incorrect. D3's RMAH was an example of how to do AH wrong, but people didn't take the reasons for its failure as lessons for moving forward. They took "AH doesn't work in ARPGs" instead, which is false.

2. You have no idea how often trolls ask for examples in bad faith. Couple that with your antagonistic replies and you can see why I would rather tell you to seek the answers yourself. A big part of that is that when I just give people answers, they want to dismiss them simply because I provided it. When they find it, it's true (for them). Yay, stupid psychology, but that's how people work. 🙄

3. That was why I said your ignorance of them doesn't make their existence invalid or false. That's why I kept saying that if anyone would simply act in good faith, they would find out for themselves. The fact that nobody wants to means I'm highly justified in assuming either ill intent or fear of being wrong.

As for trying to educate certain... neanderthals... around here, their own ignorance and ego makes that basically pointless. They are unwilling to listen. I've been over the pro-AH side of this in other games that have similar awful "trade" as this game for years and it's always the same stupid "points" that hold no merit from these people. Their understanding of game economies, player behavior, and game health is just too simple-minded. They won't be persuaded because they don't want to be.

I'll tell you what, though. If you're sincere in wanting to have a discussion about this, offer the three most important points that you think shows why an AH is a bad idea. Given how easy the "crashing prices" one is to debunk, and has been repeatedly on these forums, I'd be really surprised if you still believe that one. I'm not saying it can't be one of your points, but you have a herculean task ahead of you to make that particular case plausible. Also, for the sanity of the thread and keeping this civil, let's agree to keep a certain chimp out of it.

Edited September 27, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[Gabbynaru]

37 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I'll tell you what, though. If you're sincere in wanting to have a discussion about this, offer the three most important points that you think shows why an AH is a bad idea.

Very well. I won't even use the "crashing market" one, even though we have to agree to disagree on that one, since my personal experience tells me that's exactly what's gonna happen. But anyway, here we go:

1. It's anti-social

Auction/Trading Houses are inherit to an environment that allows for multiple people to partake in it, in our case MMOs, which are theoretically supposed to be social experiences. With the current system, people have to talk with one another, even if it's just as little as "inv". Auction/Trading houses remove that requirement, which inherently weakens and goes against the concept of an MMO, off a social experience.

2. The mafia

Well, someone already mentioned that one, and I have also personally witnessed mafia-like behavior in relation to warframe.market. There will always be groups and individuals wanting to monopolize and control the prices of items for their own gain. Even the current system has it. But in an environment like an auction/trading house, which will allow for mass dumping of inventories and little effort in managing their sale, said groups and individuals will be even more aggressive in protecting their profit margins, which will lead to greater player harassment and, going back to my previous point, more anti-social behavior.

3. Digital Extremes half-asses everything

Since we are talking about auction/trading houses in the context of Warframe, allow me to remind you that Digital Extremes doesn't exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to managing and sustaining content. More often than not, they put out something that proves to be in a bad state, and generally forget about it for years to come. So, I applaud you if you trust DE to do a much better job with this, but I personally do not have much faith in them actually managing the auction/trading house in a way that is satisfactory and safe for all players involved. Remember that bad plat is still an issue, and with auction/trading houses taking away the small amount of protection people have against that (taking screenshots of the trades, which can easily be forgotten about, since trading/auction houses act as a set and forget type of trading), bad plat could potentially turn into an even bigger issue than it currently is.

Agree or disagree with this, I've tried my best. Based on the experiences I've had and the information I know, that's my view on things. If you think I'm an idiot... well, I never said I am not, so educate me.

[Steel_Rook]

6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

If it's this easy to dissect the first sentence of his "argument," do I even need to be the one to destroy the rest of that nonsense?

Well now you know why I have that person on ignore.

I cited prices from a few games I remember off the top of my head. In the case of World of Tanks, I went to their store as it exists today to pull prices, because they shifted their Premuim model around recently. Used to be able to buy it for Gold, but I don't see that option any more, and there's no 30-day Premium offer so I looked at buying two 15-day ones. I also cited Payday 2. While development on that has also been discontinued, it did sell "character + gun" packs for $5 and "heist + gun" packs for $7. And that's not a few of those, either. Check out the game's store page and marvel at some 50-odd DLCs across 5 years.

Now, one could argue that "modern" F2P games are very expensive, selling a literal red dot for $1, selling a cosmetic axe for a combined $80 or whatever. One would be correct, but there's a caveat to that argument - that's the sort of monetisation the gaming community broadly HATES, and keeps raising a stink about. Indeed, one of the chief selling points of the real-money gambling that is loot boxes is the ability to hide intended value so as to PREVENT players from being incensed about it. Overwatch, for instance, gives the impression that skins are cheap, yet every time one goes for sale for real money, it runs ~$30. That's their actual intended asking price, with loot box costs and odds back-calculated to arrive at around that price on average.

In short, Warframe's cash shop prices are deliberately made exceedingly expensive. We can either accept this as the marketing gimmick that it is, driving players to buy in bulk whenever that 75% off drops... Or we can go the other way and lump Digital Extremes in the same category as your Activision and EA and 2K and Warner Brothers for exuberantly-priced, intrusive monetisation. No, they don't have paid loot boxes, low of a bar as THAT particular perk has become these days. They do have most of the other stuff, however. The only reason I've been willing to spend the some €400 on Warframe that I have (I checked my receipts recently) is precisely BECAUSE I spent damn near all of it on 75% discount. At that price, the game's monetisation is affordable and fair, offering a pretty decent deal. At that price, yeah - I'd argue that Warframe has some of the fairer monetisation with good value for money. That's one of the main reasons why I feel that Warframe's monetisation was designed around 75% off.

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Very well. I won't even use the "crashing market" one, even though we have to agree to disagree on that one, since my personal experience tells me that's exactly what's gonna happen. But anyway, here we go:

1. It's anti-social

Auction/Trading Houses are inherit to an environment that allows for multiple people to partake in it, in our case MMOs, which are theoretically supposed to be social experiences. With the current system, people have to talk with one another, even if it's just as little as "inv". Auction/Trading houses remove that requirement, which inherently weakens and goes against the concept of an MMO, off a social experience.

Technically Warframe`s Market chat is already HEAVILY unsocial at the moment, because how it mostly flows is:

• People post in Chat and wait till they get a reply on it. Which does not help if said person does not put a little research to check if said item has enough popularity to get a active post or they get to enjoy repeatedly posting in what can turn into hours of waiting.
• People reply to the message and then wait till they get a reply from the initial poster. Which since the former has no idea if the person is afk, already got the item or just is a troll who was offering a supposedly believable amount of plat for the item.
• Initial Poster replies back to one of the numerous requests they got if the item. Again pretty much a repeat of point 2 but in most cases you do not expect the Initial poster to reply back to anyone else besides the one they are interested in so the others end up with the 2nd point happening more then likely.
• If value has not been offered out yet, then usually the buyer/seller just states a price and more often then naught, its either go with this price or nty and leaves. Barely anyone wants to haggle despite it could of take easily an hour for one of the to reach this point. Same pretty much applies if the value was stated earlier but how often do you think people will agree to a different value then what they stated?

Because of how the chat system works it has no proper checks or organized manner to tell people when a person is still selling/buying an item nor can they really use a ACTUAL AUCTION of bidding values to get the item in a haggle-like manner compared to others. It ultimately is up to the poster to handle everything and its up to the other person to persuade them even if they were to offer what the person wants, but then someone could last second flip the table even when they are in the literal trade station, with only 1 to 3 button presses away before the trade is accepted.

Pretty much you can write this off as people in warframe market chat do not want to be `social` but instead just declare something they want to offer/request and get done with the sale, usually because they want to get back to the actual game of grinding in some form.

Quote

2. The mafia

Well, someone already mentioned that one, and I have also personally witnessed mafia-like behavior in relation to warframe.market. There will always be groups and individuals wanting to monopolize and control the prices of items for their own gain. Even the current system has it. But in an environment like an auction/trading house, which will allow for mass dumping of inventories and little effort in managing their sale, said groups and individuals will be even more aggressive in protecting their profit margins, which will lead to greater player harassment and, going back to my previous point, more anti-social behavior.

Your honestly going to always get reseller trashbags because its the same thinking on things like stock exchange, house flipping, etc. happen. If we were to get a trading house its quite easy to prevent people from putting large number of same items on the market, such as a limit of 1 item at a time and you need say hit MR 10 to get a 2nd slot and 20 for a 3rd slot. They could also prevent people from putting up the exact same item, since it would not allow you to say, post a entire prime set as a single item. Plus the usual cooldowns to put another thing up on the AH list and maybe even a waiting period to where people can`t collect the plat till say maybe, the next reset time.

As for people puling the harassment logic, they can simply hide the names of players who put stuff up on the market when pricing history is posted, it would just show the item name, the date of said item and what it sold at. Though clearly ANYONE can do player harassment in market chat since they can quite literally spam 3 to 4 wall text messages, every minute while carefully avoiding common tags that get filtered while putting fake tags of wts and wtb to hit those positive filters to slip into those, aka what the usual troll messages of nudes/girlfriend and even wtb plat get to bypass the normal use of filters.

Quote

3. Digital Extremes half-asses everything

Since we are talking about auction/trading houses in the context of Warframe, allow me to remind you that Digital Extremes doesn't exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to managing and sustaining content. More often than not, they put out something that proves to be in a bad state, and generally forget about it for years to come. So, I applaud you if you trust DE to do a much better job with this, but I personally do not have much faith in them actually managing the auction/trading house in a way that is satisfactory and safe for all players involved. Remember that bad plat is still an issue, and with auction/trading houses taking away the small amount of protection people have against that (taking screenshots of the trades, which can easily be forgotten about, since trading/auction houses act as a set and forget type of trading), bad plat could potentially turn into an even bigger issue than it currently is.

Honesty i could think of some companies who do much worst then D.E., try looking up Ankama who is basically some company who runs two french games by the name of Dofus & Wakfu. The latter they did quite a bit of ruining by having a good concept but then put it full subscription based game with a FFT like model setup, takes even longer to chunk out sizable updates or even hotfixes then D.E. takes and still insist on using a `booster subscription requirement` to access the latest content in the game, after they slowly inched from a limited f2p then just basically having all but that latest content be f2p, but because it only opens up when the next new area is released in a update, can easily take many maaaaany months. I ended up leaving that game cause one of my accounts got hacked despite having proper security measures in place, had everything valuable stripped from it and they basically said they can`t do anything about it despite the fact i had actual money used on that account, yet they want to say i should of had a stronger password, despite changing said passwords to really complicated ones way before the incident occur. Granted very sure they are a larger company then D.E. though yet they defaulted straight to shoveling out `costume packs all the time` and might as well be only doing an update in more then half a year of waiting when i still followed the site a while then outright bleached my mind of any fond memories of wakfu.

Never the less i would say D.E. does take some effort by actually putting some hotfixes out and showed SOME notice by back-pedaling on the umbratization warframe thing. But i will agree they need to put more notice on such things and its why i hope as more of these threads pop up, the more D.E. takes notice that they may need to go as far to delay railjack maybe a month or so just to quickly fix things up for the community, then get fated that a combination of badly designed content again could flare the player base up again to where these issues get once again brought up.

Heck at this point when i was having to wash one of my associate`s cars just now i was reminded of how a general auction works and would likely be a even more dumb`d down way to handle the marketing but i wont chatter about that till another post i guess.

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Avienas

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Well now you know why I have that person on ignore.

I cited prices from a few games I remember off the top of my head. In the case of World of Tanks, I went to their store as it exists today to pull prices, because they shifted their Premuim model around recently. Used to be able to buy it for Gold, but I don't see that option any more, and there's no 30-day Premium offer so I looked at buying two 15-day ones. I also cited Payday 2. While development on that has also been discontinued, it did sell "character + gun" packs for $5 and "heist + gun" packs for $7. And that's not a few of those, either. Check out the game's store page and marvel at some 50-odd DLCs across 5 years.

Now, one could argue that "modern" F2P games are very expensive, selling a literal red dot for $1, selling a cosmetic axe for a combined $80 or whatever. One would be correct, but there's a caveat to that argument - that's the sort of monetisation the gaming community broadly HATES, and keeps raising a stink about. Indeed, one of the chief selling points of the real-money gambling that is loot boxes is the ability to hide intended value so as to PREVENT players from being incensed about it. Overwatch, for instance, gives the impression that skins are cheap, yet every time one goes for sale for real money, it runs ~$30. That's their actual intended asking price, with loot box costs and odds back-calculated to arrive at around that price on average.

In short, Warframe's cash shop prices are deliberately made exceedingly expensive. We can either accept this as the marketing gimmick that it is, driving players to buy in bulk whenever that 75% off drops... Or we can go the other way and lump Digital Extremes in the same category as your Activision and EA and 2K and Warner Brothers for exuberantly-priced, intrusive monetisation. No, they don't have paid loot boxes, low of a bar as THAT particular perk has become these days. They do have most of the other stuff, however. The only reason I've been willing to spend the some €400 on Warframe that I have (I checked my receipts recently) is precisely BECAUSE I spent damn near all of it on 75% discount. At that price, the game's monetisation is affordable and fair, offering a pretty decent deal. At that price, yeah - I'd argue that Warframe has some of the fairer monetisation with good value for money. That's one of the main reasons why I feel that Warframe's monetisation was designed around 75% off.

Good points but I do recall relics and before that, Void keys used to be offered in the in-game marketplace.

[FrostDragoon]

3 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Agree or disagree with this, I've tried my best. Based on the experiences I've had and the information I know, that's my view on things. If you think I'm an idiot... well, I never said I am not, so educate me.

Since @Avienas beat me to it, I don't think I need to address those three in detail right away. I'd be more curious what your response will be. However, contrary to the bad opinions of the trolls around here, simply disagreeing with me isn't why I would assume someone is an idiot. If you want to know why I would, well, you don't have to look very far in this thread. 😛 I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.

While I understand the fear of "mafia" and harassment tactics, we can't allow those to be the reason to not pursue positive change to the way the market works. First of all, it's a bit like caving to terroristic threats--it's exactly what they want you to do. Secondly, and more importantly, there will be bad actors in any system. They are here now. That won't change. What we want to focus on is how it effects the majority of players, especially with regard to those who we consider "newb" or "casual" primarily as a result of the exclusive nature of the current system keeping them out of what the game actually has to offer if they could use the market to overcome the paywalls.

Bad plat is a complicated issue, but again I don't see it as particularly different than now. That's more up to DE to fix. If you wanted to argue they should go after that first, I would be inclined to agree with you, but that doesn't mean it's an excuse to ignore the obviously bad system we have now.

Edited September 27, 2019 by FrostDragoon

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

Good points but I do recall relics and before that, Void keys used to be offered in the in-game marketplace.

I think relic packs are still purchasable from the market, but some of the stuff there is (pardon the pun) a relic of the past. Either DE never cared to clean up the store or they left it there deliberately in the off chance someone would be dumb enough to buy it. Most players who have cleared the star chart have a decent idea of what they should/shouldn't buy from the store and it doesn't take a lot of math to figure out the rest.

[Avienas]

47 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Since @Avienas beat me to it, I don't think I need to address those three in detail right away. I'd be more curious what your response will be. However, contrary to the bad opinions of the trolls around here, simply disagreeing with me isn't why I would assume someone is an idiot. If you want to know why I would, well, you don't have to look very far in this thread. 😛 I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.

While I understand the fear of "mafia" and harassment tactics, we can't allow those to be the reason to not pursue positive change to the way the market works. First of all, it's a bit like caving to terroristic threats--it's exactly what they want you to do. Secondly, and more importantly, there will be bad actors in any system. They are here now. That won't change. What we want to focus on is how it effects the majority of players, especially with regard to those who we consider "newb" or "casual" primarily as a result of the exclusive nature of the current system keeping them out of what the game actually has to offer if they could use the market to overcome the paywalls.

Bad plat is a complicated issue, but again I don't see it as particularly different than now. That's more up to DE to fix. If you wanted to argue they should go after that first, I would be inclined to agree with you, but that doesn't mean it's an excuse to ignore the obviously bad system we have now.

For the TL;DR: Using an excuse to give the reason why to not do something is the same as ignoring the problem altogether. If no one steps up on ways to state that said problem needs to get addressed and many people give plenty of ways on how it could be addressed, then the frustration continues to be a boiling issue to ruin the enjoyment of a game. For a few examples:

• One of the major factors on why i never stuck with Dauntless, despite being a F2P monster hunter-like game, was the fact they never had a loadout set system, which having to change equips, re-equip `gemstones` every time i want to do a different fight since i focus mainly on playing war-pike on it, is rather tiresome.
• For why i am planning to drop Mobius Final Fantasy at the end of this month is the tedious grind and chasing after clearing difficult content becomes clockwork boring as i boost weapons just to reach those thresholds that i cannot easily clear without specific supreme cards. Well-designed game with generous gacha and what not, but eventually a repeat of constantly the same thing for the most part tires one out. Funfact i was even a day 1 player on Mobius Final Fantasy, took a hiatus for a couple of months once due to burnout and even though i easily caught back up, i basically lost the care after the FF8 collab was mostly thru for this month.
• What made me rage-quit Kingdom Hearts RE:Union, the introduction of a new medal tier(6 star tier basically) for your collectable equips for stats being locked behind a direct pvp system that only whales could rank high enough to get said goodies, less you paid money for them, no idea if they fixed it but i left that game ages ago.
• For Vindicitus? Frustrating combat which unless you dump real money to give guranteed success rates on enhancing gear to high values or risk destroying your super rare drop goods. If not done, then basically enjoy getting one-shot by the enemies later on and i left when it was in the level 80s, plus lets not even get started on how difficult it was to acquire money to just buy high level sets off the market board that likely had plenty of dollar bills dumped in them.

I especially do not want warframe to be stuck in one of these situations where just a single thing that is never addressed, can utterly sour the game itself, especially since its been around for many years as a free to play game on multiple platforms and even was compared to Destiny 1 as one heck of a `which is better` debate, when the latter was just getting released.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Avienas

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I think relic packs are still purchasable from the market, but some of the stuff there is (pardon the pun) a relic of the past. Either DE never cared to clean up the store or they left it there deliberately in the off chance someone would be dumb enough to buy it. Most players who have cleared the star chart have a decent idea of what they should/shouldn't buy from the store and it doesn't take a lot of math to figure out the rest.

The mod packs also at least had some elements of that, though some of that was cleaned up recently right?

[(PSN)Onder6099]

13 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Yeah, well... You probably misunderstood what I said...

 

... But since you're pointing out that "everyone is born innocent" and that "people change" due to things that are rubbed, thrown, stabbed and/or fired at their faces through the course of their lives, really... Let me point out that, within the womb, the soon-to-be child inherits the traits of their family tree up to the 5th generation... And because of that, the soon-to-be child may, or may not, be born innocent. The theory of "Under the right circumstances (...)" applies to everything. This can be present even before birth, up to the 5th generation, and it doesn't even need to be directly related. So, after all I've mentioned just now...

Life teaches nothing new on those cases. It only brings whatever they have underneath their skin, back to the surface for all to see, and it even reinforces whatever they're hiding... And, lets face it, its a lot easier to let those out when you're sitting behind a screen instead of being face to face.

 

I'm personally content in trading what I can, for the meager cost that cosmetics have. The way I manage my inventory, slots are the least of my worries if not outright expendable...

And even if I wanted to trade something more valuable, I have other tools available that will most likely help me to trade, other than the trading chat. One of those tools is exactly the same one that allowed the creation of this topic, so~... I don't know, humanity's greatest ability is the ability to adapt and~... Pretty much anyone that has created topics of this nature, just as this one, only shows me that they lack the ability to adapt to the reality their facing.

It wasn’t my purpose to go so deep into human mentality. I just want from players to stop for a while a try to become more self critical and realize how greed affects them. Ideas presented and based on: this is good for me, don’t mean it’s good in global merit, technical it’s against all because they lead into more market recession where supply exceed demand.

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

It wasn’t my purpose to go so deep into human mentality. I just want from players to stop for a while a try to become more self critical and realize how greed affects them. Ideas presented and based on: this is good for me, don’t mean it’s good in global merit

Up until this point it's vague enough that either side could read it as being in favor for their argument.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

technical it’s against all because they lead into more market recession where supply exceed demand.

You're going to have to try real hard to substantiate that one, because there's not actually a good (historical) reason to think that will happen.

People often talk about "supply and demand" while demonstrating a poor understanding of the terms, their relationship, or--worst of all--how they actually do/would apply to Warframe. All the bad arguments I see from people about how "prices will crash" and "everything will be 1p" seem to stem from this problem. So I have to ask, what makes you so sure that would be the case for Warframe when that isn't the case for most games that have an AH and given the fact that Warframe is uniquely situated to deal with a lot of those issues through currently existing systems should an AH exist here?

[(PSN)Onder6099]

46 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Up until this point it's vague enough that either side could read it as being in favor for their argument.

You're going to have to try real hard to substantiate that one, because there's not actually a good (historical) reason to think that will happen.

People often talk about "supply and demand" while demonstrating a poor understanding of the terms, their relationship, or--worst of all--how they actually do/would apply to Warframe. All the bad arguments I see from people about how "prices will crash" and "everything will be 1p" seem to stem from this problem. So I have to ask, what makes you so sure that would be the case for Warframe when that isn't the case for most games that have an AH and given the fact that Warframe is uniquely situated to deal with a lot of those issues through currently existing systems should an AH exist here?

Can you please explain me another reason, except recession (increased drop rate included) why price for R3 Energize drop from 3k to 1k and you must spend 3x more time to get those 3k?

[adek183]

Newest Prime Access is going to introduce a new booster type "Mod drop chance booster" and recently farming frames got nerfed. This is very bad timing if you'll ask me and I think DE is slowly turning into another EA-like company. Nerfing farming methods just to sell them as a temporary "booster" later is super scummy and blantly pay to win. What's next endo booster? I hope this thing never gets added into the game and DE was just joking even though 1st April is long gone.

[--RV--ChaosStar]

So today as I was browsing the Atlas Prime access page I saw something new:

"BONUS: 7-Day Mod Drop Chance Booster" 

This raised some concerns and overall I think it will be a bad addition to the game. Here is why:

Recently there were changes made to how looting abilities work in game with the classic Pilfdroid/desecrate combo getting nerfed, as well as the interaction of the Chesa Kubrow and Nekros. Now in close to 5 years of being part of the community, the fact that Nekros and Hydroid were the classic farm buddies was the norm. Everyone was used to it. So when the synergy got nerfed we were all concerned since farming and Warframe go hand in hand. 

What is more: while affinity, resource drop chances and the double resource Booster are a convinience that allow you to get resources for weapons, frames and gear faster mod drop chance boosters sound kinda like pay to win to me since mods directly affect the gameplay. I think that everyone that has played the game enough will agree that having a fully modded frame or weapon VS not is a big gap in power.

The point is: Just some months after removing a synergy in game that was of easy access to everyone and that allowed us to farm more conviniently, we get a new booster to address farming mods instead of us getting the good old, known to everyone method. 

Anyway this is all I have on the matter. This is coming out of concern for this game I love so much and that I wish remains fair for new and old players alike fsr into the future. 

 

[(PSN)ZombDestroyer11]

We need to talk about this more.

 

My reaction to this? No. Especially after the Double/Triple Desecrate loot farming nerf people have been doing for years. This feels very much more like EA, rather then DE.

Simply, besides how scummy it feels to get this after the aforementioned loot nerf, it even feels like a new player plat trap. If this booster doubles mod drop rates, and we've got mods that drop at a rate of about 1.25%, then this isn't going to help anyways, especially when the rates can be even lower then that. A new player could be tricked into thinking that the booster is needed to get some of the best mods in the game. 

Rewards in Warframe have already been suffering lately. We shouldn't have to pay to get more/better rewards. Pure and simple. I don't want this game to turn Pay to Win, and this inches ever so more to that. I came back to this game for the very reason that DE and Warframe are different from everyone else, that they don't nickle and dime people. Other communities and games have been destroyed because of it. Heck. We're watching it happen right now with Activision and Call of Duty. I hope this is a one time thing, my best case scenario is this is removed for something else. Bonus if the loot nerf is reverted or brought back in some way that doesn't make you pay up. 

 

What do you all think?

[swiftasacoursing]

There’s already multiple topics about this, so please copy what you have here and post it in those threads instead