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Trinity: A (Drastic?) Rework

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19 hours ago, Xzorn said:

That's not specific to your topic. That's just a generalization of what happens when DE touches a frame that's already in decent shape.

Ah, apologies. I thought you meant that my concept of WoL was somehow worse than the current and it would butcher Trinity 

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10 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I had to check it. My mind is blown actually. You've played almost as long as I have and still try to say curing healthy guys is better than ill ones.

Um, no, actually, I've in fact stated the opposite; that saving people from literal death is better than simply making them less likely to die. A reliable instant revive means you literally cannot die unless you're playing Arbitration or are running on some particularly restrictive cooldown.

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Do you really believe that this resist was implemented in the game specifically for Gara and Chroma? Or for the people who slap Adaptation?
Sure I guess, let's forget about squishframes, they're not deserve any resist at all. They had to be building for health, armor and resists in the first place huh? Let's buff Chroma with Bless. Or Gara.

I'm sorry, what? I'm not saying that tanky frames deserve more tankiness, I'm saying that, mathematically speaking, damage resistance is going to work better on tanky frames than squishy frames, whether you like it or not. It is therefore correct to say that a resurrect is generally more powerful than mere damage reduction, as damage reduction needs to either be really high or work on an exceptionally high health pool in order to be worth anything. I do in face believe squishy frames deserve good protection, especially in the game's current state, but rendering them literally immune to death is possibly not the healthiest way of going about it, especially when you look at the problems other games have with resurrect-type abilities.

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First of all, this is not a political debate. And I was rather respectful to your opinion.

You have mocked me and my opinion from the very start; don't try to be cute about it.

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Second, that argument as silly as it can be is mostly true. Most of the first abilities are starter abilities. Game progressed further, power became redundant. Change the power please, not the entire kit.

... which is what has been suggested, in that both the OP and I proposed a first power that was useful in addition to not being redundant. Also, my argument is silly... because it's true? What?

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In the end of the day DE reworked entire Excalibur's kit not because his one Super Jump ability was disgusting.

I can't even begin to see how this has any relevance to the discussion. Excalibur was reworked because his kit was outdated, and not only did Super Jump get scrapped, but he received changes to all of his abilities, plus an entirely new one on his 4. He is therefore a prime example of why older kits deserve comprehensive reworks if that helps improve them significantly, rather than mere surface-level tweaks. Meanwhile, you seem to be trying to frame his rework as a simple one, which... well, good luck with that.

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And why are you discussing this if it is silly? Maybe read my last sentence in that part eh?

It is silly to me, but it clearly isn't to you, as you are clearly either unaware of the ridiculousness of what you are suggesting, or are willing to endure the embarrassment for the sake of it, which is why I took the time to explain to you precisely why you are wrong. I have read your post in full, yet that last sentence did nothing to disprove the fact that Trinity would benefit from more changes than just a redo to her 1, for reasons already explained above.

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Yep, that's what I am telling you. But remaking ability for this reason? If it will be great at any level of content - it must be broken and OP AF.

That's not really true, though, an ability doesn't have to be broken just to feel good or useful -- Gauss's Mach rush, for example, feels good to use without being particularly overpowered in the grand scheme of abilities in Warframe. The reason EV deserves a rework isn't simply because it's not that useful in the game's current state, but that it breaks the game when it is useful: Trinity has probably had the unhealthiest impact on the game's entire meta for years on end, simply because she could provide infinite Energy to her teammates and make them practically invulnerable to boot. Even now, while Energy generation on abilities isn't especially valued, Trinity blows every other Energy-generating effect out of the water, simply because hers is so cheap to deploy and powerful in the amount it restores. Balancing the ability would require nerfing its Energy generation to virtually nothing, which is not something anybody wants. Thus, changing her Energy generation into something that requires more participation (and doesn't necessarily rely on a particular Corrupted mod build) would benefit her regardless.

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Yes, to be honest every frequently used ability has to be free of locks. This in particular seem very clearly when you play Banshee and always have to freeze while casting Sonar. Then you hop on Mag and voila you can cast midair in aim glide while reloading.

Agreed, and in general I think animation locks should either not exist or be restricted to abilities that are specifically meant to be used only rarely. Trinity's abilities are all spammable to a degree, therefore I don't think she really needs animation locks.

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20 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

saving people from literal death is better than simply making them less likely to die

I'd rather not to fall on my buns not being able to use powers, barely moving and making a last stand with my handgun only. Which can be unequipped for many reasons. And in the same time being a burden for the team. That's why absolute majority of people just forfeit and press "revive" . That is the prime reason why aug like Necros's Soul Punch exists. It is a some form of funny luxurious gimmick. Also Oberon just makes you not die with a relatively small vulnerability window with Phoenix Renewal.

To sum my observations of gameplay both in premade and random matchmaking people most of the time choose to kill themselves and use a per-mission revive regardless of buff/effects/saved energy loss. Because in low level content people tend to speedrun tedious missions, in sorties it still counts as tedious, and finally in arbitration we have completely different mechanic.

This is not the case of toxicity amongst playerbase when you know people won't revive you minding their own business. It is I believe quite opposite, an attempt to evade time waste and the need for allies to possibly backtrack. Hence even when I rush to save the nearby downed guy, even when I start to revive him, I often see people revive on their own.

The proposition of reviving ability is a several years too late now, as it could be superb when Warframe had old per-day revive count limits.

As of today massive AoE spammable resistance is a greater good taking in account fast paced and very mobile combat system. Dedicated "revive frame" is anticlimactic to say the least.

If you want to see something new implemented, I believe it is for the greater good to leave the purpose (and the end result of use) of specific skill if it does its job fine throughout the years of nerfs. Just like Saryn example.

52 минуты назад, Teridax68 сказал:

mere damage reduction

Saves lives...

55 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

rendering them literally immune to death is possibly not the healthiest way of going about it, especially when you look at the problems other games have with resurrect-type abilities.

Hence we have nullifiers and enemies capable of dispelling. Meleeing nullifiers can quickly prove any power based immunity temporary. Same for bottomless pit falls, when you get stripped of all buffs and left in staggered state.

And be very careful comparing WF to other games. Since OTHER games give you some death penalty, whether it is loss of current inventory, long travelling distances to the spot of death, some debuffs or negative scores. Warframe do... nothing! A small affinity loss is neglectible for most of the time. With this in mind keeping the pace of game via keeping everybody ptotected and healthy is a greater priority.

1 час назад, Teridax68 сказал:

mocked me and my opinion

And already regret that since you seem quite reasonable person, so I'm trying to smoke a calumet of piece.

1 час назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Also, my argument is silly... because it's true? What?

Not yours. Mine. I agree that my previous statement about WoL is pretty silly. But. On the other hand, I agree with the dude above who'd choose to leave current WoL untouched rather that butcher the whole kit (like OP suggested) with unpredictable playstyle changes. Which brings us to...

1 час назад, Teridax68 сказал:

I can't even begin to see how this has any relevance to the discussion. Excalibur was reworked because his kit was outdated, and not only did Super Jump get scrapped, but he received changes to all of his abilities, plus an entirely new one on his 4. He is therefore a prime example of why older kits deserve comprehensive reworks if that helps improve them significantly, rather than mere surface-level tweaks.

And it is true. They did it to keep him up with current gameplay. Not just because his super jump was a meme.

But on the other hand Trin is as good as ever. Doing her job. Most popular support frame. A "frame-enabler". So I don't see a reason to proclaim about Trinity desperately in need of drastic changes based on one wonky ability and other annoying ability.

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20 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Dedicated "revive frame" is anticlimactic to say the least.

^^ Especially with Operator’s Void Mode being a thing unless you can revive a Teammate while tanking (which can be possible unless the enemies can do a lot of Damage through the really high DR she can get from Arcane Guardian + Adaptation, Link, and Blessing. She can be a good Melee Frame in Mot.).

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I do in face believe squishy frames deserve good protection, especially in the game's current state,

 

They used to have protection. It was called CC =D

Pretty much why we have this Tank + DPS meta now. There is a threshold based on level where DR / eHP is useful for any frame but obviously does get out scaled comparatively. Then again now that CC is unreliable at best I'm not sure these squishy Glass Cannon frames have much else to work with besides sitting behind Volt's Shield.

Sad really.

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My phone died when I have been answering so I have to continue to answer here.

1 час назад, Teridax68 сказал:

That's not really true, though, an ability doesn't have to be broken just to feel good or useful -- Gauss's Mach rush, for example, feels good to use without being particularly overpowered in the grand scheme of abilities in Warframe. The reason EV deserves a rework isn't simply because it's not that useful in the game's current state, but that it breaks the game when it is useful: Trinity has probably had the unhealthiest impact on the game's entire meta for years on end, simply because she could provide infinite Energy to her teammates and make them practically invulnerable to boot. Even now, while Energy generation on abilities isn't especially valued, Trinity blows every other Energy-generating effect out of the water, simply because hers is so cheap to deploy and powerful in the amount it restores.

Mach Rush? Is that the thing when he's shooting straight ahead and bashes his head in the wall? It has no practical implementation in teamplay aside of the fact it is synergizes with his own abilities (being almost mandatory thing in his resource management issues as people complain), and if it wasn't - we'd have another meme ability like Zephyr's tail wind. Aside of that Tail Wind still has practical use in a great open area (like Ropalolyst fight).

Back to EV topic. I see some faint trace of judging players in using the ability DE are well informed about for a LONG time. People judging Saryn and Limbo players in topics a bit below. What is good of it? Let people to play as they want, do not demand to redo the abilities which are working as intended for a long time. Minding your own playstyle is a great virtue. Since it is not the ability which does work wrong. It is players who use the ability to the max they can squeeze of it. Is it fundamental evil if people could manage to stay 20 minutes or 20 waves longer, because of Trinity enabled that?

I have a long story with Banshee's abusers who used her as 100m area AFK nuke. I always thought Banshee's purpose is gunplay with mild CC/debuff. I minded my own playstyle and wasn't upset if someone used Banshee not as I wanted. In the end she got long waited nerf, which isn't a nerf at all, just a rework in line with her intended theme. I smirked, shrugged and kept going. And this is a prime reason I keep defending something I value in this game from getting worse, especially from reworks consisting of poor compilation of other frames' augmented abilities and Overwatch ultimates. Defending from getting worse just because someone assumably abused something, that is not giving any meaningful edge in player's progression, because they like that thing.

2 часа назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Agreed, and in general I think animation locks should either not exist or be restricted to abilities that are specifically meant to be used only rarely. Trinity's abilities are all spammable to a degree, therefore I don't think she really needs animation locks.

If only those upper body animations were not so clumsy... 🤣

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4 минуты назад, Xzorn сказал:

Sad really.

Especially sad considering "glass cannons" can have workarounds to stay in batle, but it is so unreliable people won't bother with using them, giving preference to Mesas and Wukongs, who are on a spotlight now and cherished to the point of absurd: Mesa Prime's buttcheeks were "buffed". But does anyone even noticed Nova Prime's hips and butt actually a bit smaller than original Nova? Where's my buff DE? REEE.

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26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I'd rather not to fall on my buns not being able to use powers, barely moving and making a last stand with my handgun only. Which can be unequipped for many reasons. And in the same time being a burden for the team. That's why absolute majority of people just forfeit and press "revive" . That is the prime reason why aug like Necros's Soul Punch exists. It is a some form of funny luxurious gimmick. Also Oberon just makes you not die with a relatively small vulnerability window with Phoenix Renewal.

All of which Trinity would be able to negate instantly under your rework. You are making it sound like a fraction of a second's worth of being downed is somehow a major inconvenience.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

To sum my observations of gameplay both in premade and random matchmaking people most of the time choose to kill themselves and use a per-mission revive regardless of buff/effects/saved energy loss. Because in low level content people tend to speedrun tedious missions, in sorties it still counts as tedious, and finally in arbitration we have completely different mechanic.

Yes, people will often force-kill themselves because waiting for someone to come and channel for a full 5 seconds to revive them is tedious. With your proposed version, not only would this be itself negated, but it also risks creating the expectation of Trinity auto-reviving anyone who gets downed regardless of range.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

This is not the case of toxicity amongst playerbase when you know people won't revive you minding their own business. It is I believe quite opposite, an attempt to evade time waste and the need for allies to possibly backtrack. Hence even when I rush to save the nearby downed guy, even when I start to revive him, I often see people revive on their own.

Yes, again because channelling to revive means spending several seconds being downed. This is itself different from being revived instantly from a distance at no real cost to anyone else. I'm not quite sure which parallel you're trying to establish between to very clearly different situations.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

The proposition of reviving ability is a several years too late now, as it could be superb when Warframe had old per-day revive count limits.

Which, in other words, means that the proposal is slightly less relevant now that anyone can revive a set number of times per mission. I don't otherwise see why it would be worth bringing up a long-obsolete design feature.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

As of today massive AoE spammable resistance is a greater good taking in account fast paced and very mobile combat system. Dedicated "revive frame" is anticlimactic to say the least.

... why are you putting down your own concept? Would this not be an argument against a mass resurrect?

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

If you want to see something new implemented, I believe it is for the greater good to leave the purpose (and the end result of use) of specific skill if it does its job fine throughout the years of nerfs. Just like Saryn example.

Okay, but then why aren't we keeping the specific purpose of healing enemies across the map? That I think is a far more solid niche than reviving people, yet you are sacrificing one piece of Blessing's identity while advocating to keep what I'd argue is a secondary feature, while championing the latter as an essential part of its purpose.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Saves lives...

As do instant revives, which are guaranteed to do so as opposed to merely making so more likely.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Hence we have nullifiers and enemies capable of dispelling. Meleeing nullifiers can quickly prove any power based immunity temporary. Same for bottomless pit falls, when you get stripped of all buffs and left in staggered state.

But then that counters the current Blessing just as much as the one you're proposing. Why bring up Nullifiers, then?

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And be very careful comparing WF to other games. Since OTHER games give you some death penalty, whether it is loss of current inventory, long travelling distances to the spot of death, some debuffs or negative scores. Warframe do... nothing! A small affinity loss is neglectible for most of the time. With this in mind keeping the pace of game via keeping everybody ptotected and healthy is a greater priority.

Not really, even in games where death is cheap, resurrecting people runs into the common issue of players waiting for allies to die, which then leads to some players throwing themselves like lemmings and expecting to be resurrected. Mercy in Overwatch was a major case of this. The problem isn't the cost of death here, the problem is the subtly perverse incentives generated by revive abilities.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And already regret that since you seem quite reasonable person, so I'm trying to smoke a calumet of piece.

Okay, that sounds good, let's go with that.

26 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Not yours. Mine. I agree that my previous statement about WoL is pretty silly. But. On the other hand, I agree with the dude above who'd choose to leave current WoL untouched rather that butcher the whole kit (like OP suggested) with unpredictable playstyle changes. Which brings us to...

And it is true. They did it to keep him up with current gameplay. Not just because his super jump was a meme.

But on the other hand Trin is as good as ever. Doing her job. Most popular support frame. A "frame-enabler". So I don't see a reason to proclaim about Trinity desperately in need of drastic changes based on one wonky ability and other annoying ability.

But I can tell you right now that she is in fact in need of a deeper set of changes. Keeping WoL in its current state makes no sense in this respect while she retains the rest of her kit intact. Moreover, the redundancy in her kit is but the tip of the iceberg: her abilities are clunky to cast, more so considering how dependent she is on spamming damage reduction on multiple timers, and her specialty in two entirely different niches makes her a problem when those niches are valuable. As mentioned in the OP, she provides both Energy and protection far too cheaply, and the result is a monster frame that has dominated the metagame for years, and that likely is the reason why everyone basically gets to have all of her benefits for themselves nowadays.

3 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Mach Rush? Is that the thing when he's shooting straight ahead and bashes his head in the wall? It has no practical implementation in teamplay aside of the fact it is synergizes with his own abilities (being almost mandatory thing in his resource management issues as people complain), and if it wasn't - we'd have another meme ability like Zephyr's tail wind. Aside of that Tail Wind still has practical use in a great open area (like Ropalolyst fight).

... an ability doesn't need to contribute to a team to feel good to use. Yes, Gauss overall has a team play problem, because his one real team play ability gets dumped on by his usual mod setup, but Mach Rush is undeniably fun to use nonetheless independently of his other abilities, especially in the Plains or Vallis.

3 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Back to EV topic. I see some faint trace of judging players in using the ability DE are well informed about for a LONG time. People judging Saryn and Limbo players in topics a bit below. What is good of it? Let people to play as they want, do not demand to redo the abilities which are working as intended for a long time. Minding your own playstyle is a great virtue. Since it is not the ability which does work wrong. It is players who use the ability to the max they can squeeze of it. Is it fundamental evil if people could manage to stay 20 minutes or 20 waves longer, because of Trinity enabled that?

I'm sorry, where exactly did I judge people on using any playstyle here? I merely pointed out that EV's design is spammy by nature, and that its implementation thus has room to improve.

3 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I have a long story with Banshee's abusers who used her as 100m area AFK nuke. I always thought Banshee's purpose is gunplay with mild CC/debuff. I minded my own playstyle and wasn't upset if someone used Banshee not as I wanted. In the end she got long waited nerf, which isn't a nerf at all, just a rework in line with her intended theme. I smirked, shrugged and kept going. And this is a prime reason I keep defending something I value in this game from getting worse, especially from reworks consisting of poor compilation of other frames' augmented abilities and Overwatch ultimates. Defending from getting worse just because someone assumably abused something, that is not giving any meaningful edge in player's progression, because they like that thing.

There is a difference between fixing something and applying some lazy nerf that fixes nothing. Unfortunately, DE do have a track record for the latter, with Ember as probably their biggest victim, but they have nonetheless achieved the former on many occasions, namely through proper reworks. Saryn, Nezha and Wukong are now better than ever, and so because they received comprehensive changes that let them play properly.

13 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

They used to have protection. It was called CC =D

Pretty much why we have this Tank + DPS meta now. There is a threshold based on level where DR / eHP is useful for any frame but obviously does get out scaled comparatively. Then again now that CC is unreliable at best I'm not sure these squishy Glass Cannon frames have much else to work with besides sitting behind Volt's Shield.

Sad really.

Agreed, and the biggest culprit in this respect is ability-immune enemies, whose overwhelming presence in a lot of high-level content makes certain frames, like Banshee or Ember, unable to function entirely. There's also the whole issue of how our first line of defense is our mobility, yet the enemy's accuracy algorithm and scaling damage is absolutely not conducive to that, though that's a whole other discussion thread by itself.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

There is a difference between fixing something and applying some lazy nerf that fixes nothing. Unfortunately, DE do have a track record for the latter, with Ember as probably their biggest victim, but they have nonetheless achieved the former on many occasions, namely through proper reworks. Saryn, Nezha and Wukong are now better than ever, and so because they received comprehensive changes that let them play properly.

When it comes to DE reworking Frames, there would be a nerf included no matter what unless DE give that Frame QOL improvements after the Rework. Nezha’s rework was a step at the right direction for Team play while Wukong’s and Saryn’s, not so much. Those two are more Focused on Solo than with a Squad. Especially Saryn where she likes to wreck a room of High Level enemies by herself like Ash kind of do. Btw, the Person who though about the Rework for those three Frames is the same person who created Nullifiers and Sapping Ospreys: Pablo (although i hate how often Corpus spam their Nullifiers at higher levels.). Ember’s rework was more of a train wreck though.

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10 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

... why are you putting down your own concept? Would this not be an argument against a mass resurrect?

Dude, I'm not OP. 🤣 
I am actually AGAINST every concept OP brought and discussing it. I don't know when did you lost me.

12 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Not really, even in games where death is cheap, resurrecting people runs into the common issue of players waiting for allies to die, which then leads to some players throwing themselves like lemmings and expecting to be resurrected. Mercy in Overwatch was a major case of this. The problem isn't the cost of death here, the problem is the subtly perverse incentives generated by revive abilities.

Oh, I see a great window for abuse! Come on guys, sit on your asses for 15 seconds (more with Oberon there) and shoot your OP secondaries at those grineer. Don't be afraid, baby Trinnie will get us back on feet in no time!
And due to how revive works in our game, you get a small window of invincibility every time you get revived. Even Nidus's passive and Oberon's Phoenix Renewal has it.

16 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

makes certain frames, like Banshee or Ember, unable to function entirely

Ever heard of Banshee's augments?

18 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Saryn, Nezha and Wukong are now better than ever, and so because they received comprehensive changes that let them play properly.

Or they could end up in trash bin, cuddling with Nyx and Vauban altogether (by common player's opinion, not mine).

 

22 минуты назад, Teridax68 сказал:

I'm sorry, where exactly did I judge people on using any playstyle here? I merely pointed out that EV's design is spammy by nature, and that its implementation thus has room to improve.

2 часа назад, Teridax68 сказал:

The reason EV deserves a rework isn't simply because it's not that useful in the game's current state, but that it breaks the game when it is useful: Trinity has probably had the unhealthiest impact on the game's entire meta for years on end, simply because she could provide infinite Energy to her teammates and make them practically invulnerable to boot. Even now, while Energy generation on abilities isn't especially valued, Trinity blows every other Energy-generating effect out of the water, simply because hers is so cheap to deploy and powerful in the amount it restores. Balancing the ability would require nerfing its Energy generation to virtually nothing, which is not something anybody wants. Thus, changing her Energy generation into something that requires more participation (and doesn't necessarily rely on a particular Corrupted mod build) would benefit her regardless.

38 минут назад, Miyabi-sama сказал:

I see some faint trace of judging players in using the ability DE are well informed about for a LONG time.

First they say "annoying", second they yell "OP PLZ NERF". When someone mentions how powerful the ability is It almost always boils down to discussion of balancing issues.
Excuse me if you're not from that kind of folk.
Again, EV is fine. It is merely enabler for people's crazy ways of playing game. Take it away and this game will have one less option.
I am treating with best regards every good rework, when stuff DE implementing does not cause functionality loss or alteration. But how much examples there are?

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41 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Especially sad considering "glass cannons" can have workarounds to stay in batle, but it is so unreliable people won't bother with using them, giving preference to Mesas and Wukongs, who are on a spotlight now and cherished to the point of absurd: Mesa Prime's buttcheeks were "buffed". But does anyone even noticed Nova Prime's hips and butt actually a bit smaller than original Nova? Where's my buff DE? REEE.

 

Oh man. Don't have to tell me that sadness. I did a lvl 300 Solo Survival with both Banshee and Ember a long time ago. I know I couldn't do it now with Ember because having to re-apply her WoF for ambient CC would just be too taxing on top of the other crazy stuff she has to do to simply not get hit even once.

Even still those were pretty much the hardest runs I've done out of majority of frames.

Trinity happened to be one of my favorite Solo runs. lvl 370 no specters and pre-adaptation. Why I don't do it anymore. It's up to 3h+ investment at this point. Adaptation did nothing but widen the spectrum by making tanky frames even more tanky with squishy frames getting relatively low to no value from it.

 

34 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Agreed, and the biggest culprit in this respect is ability-immune enemies, whose overwhelming presence in a lot of high-level content makes certain frames, like Banshee or Ember, unable to function entirely. There's also the whole issue of how our first line of defense is our mobility, yet the enemy's accuracy algorithm and scaling damage is absolutely not conducive to that, though that's a whole other discussion thread by itself.

 

Yea, I've mentioned Nullifiers and their eagle-eye for years. You can mitigate the chance of getting hit with tricks, jumping, line of sight. All that jazz but certain frames just inevitably have no countermeasures and simply cannot deal with them. They will get shot right out of the air at some point. Seen it happen so many times.

DE has been after CC since the Void came out and seems like they finally got it without much complaint since CC is now seen as something that just slows down the mission instead of helping players stay alive and being a very reliable defense method.

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8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Dude, I'm not OP. 🤣 
I am actually AGAINST every concept OP brought and discussing it. I don't know when did you lost me.

My mistake, I got confused there. But then again, why are we arguing on this if we can both agree that giving a frame a mass revive is a risky idea?

8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Oh, I see a great window for abuse! Come on guys, sit on your asses for 15 seconds (more with Oberon there) and shoot your OP secondaries at those grineer. Don't be afraid, baby Trinnie will get us back on feet in no time!
And due to how revive works in our game, you get a small window of invincibility every time you get revived. Even Nidus's passive and Oberon's Phoenix Renewal has it.

Or, alternatively, Trinity simply makes no effort to care about her teammates until they die, and then only presses 4 when she sees the notification that someone's down, which is generally the opposite behavior you'd want from her.

8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Ever heard of Banshee's augments?

I have. Please, by all means, let me know how they help her consistently survive in high-level play against ability-immune enemies.

8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Or they could end up in trash bin, cuddling with Nyx and Vauban altogether (by common player's opinion, not mine).

Sure, it's a coin flip, though DE's recent track record for frame reworks has been good. Time will tell what Vauban and Ember's reworks will look like too.

8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

First they say "annoying", second they yell "OP PLZ NERF". When someone mentions how powerful the ability is It almost always boils down to discussion of balancing issues.
Excuse me if you're not from that kind of folk.

I'm not, and in fact the issue you quoted is me saying that Trinity breaks the game in ways that are not immediately noticeable to players. Trinity isn't like Ember, Saryn, or Equinox, the later of whom all annoy people just by entering a mission, because when Trinity's around, players tend to actually really like her (and sometimes even feel entitled to her utility, even when playing hallway hero on the other side of the map). Rather, Trinity's had a much more subtle, yet devastating impact on the metagame where her existence broke both the game's enemy scaling and its Energy economy, where even in high levels enemies were reduced to pushovers. It's also made it very difficult as a result to design supports to compete with her for a long while, because she gave almost everything one could want from a support. It's only recently with the greater focus on damage that frames like Octavia and Harrow have finally overtaken her. It's not simply a problem of balance, because nerfing her Energy generation doesn't stop it from being incredibly cheap, and Blessing remains one of the most powerful abilities in the game despite its many severe nerfs.

8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Again, EV is fine. It is merely enabler for people's crazy ways of playing game. Take it away and this game will have one less option.

But again, my point is that being an "enabler for people's crazy ways of playing the game" here simply means "letting players cast without Energy restrictions", which is not particularly crazy, but is seriously unbalanced due to how it lets people spam their most powerful abilities essentially for free, all of the time. There's a difference between a "crazy" playstyle, e.g. pulling off some insane and niche synergy for awesome results, and simply godmoding.

8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I am treating with best regards every good rework, when stuff DE implementing does not cause functionality loss or alteration. But how much examples there are?

Nezha's rework removed his total invincibility, and Wukong's rework removed his total immortality and long-range knockdown, to name a few things that got cut.

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