Do you think the next mainline will include difficult or sustainable content?

[Leyers_of_facade]

difficult content? not at all likely
in the extremely unlikely case that the content isn't blatantly easy upon release, we will see forum being flooded by nerf requests... and the difficulty will no longer exist.

[Proslackernifty]

23 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I’m exited about the new mainline. But I do wonder if it’ll contain some new content that has a lot of replay value then what’s currently in the game from my own personal opinion. I wonder if railjack will have some sort of difficulty vs more tedious team communication that was shown in LOR. 

Do you guys think the rewards would be good? 

And if yes or no do you think railjack and the rest of the mainline has a lot of replay value put into it? 

I can't wait for the day that DE gives us the "sustainable content" that so many people ask for.  And then I can harvest the tears when those people complain about grinding and time sinks.  

Stay lovely, "sweatshawp"

[maddragonmaster]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

not everyone does, and people can be wrong, or over exaggerate. that said just because people aren't devs doesn't mean they can't know anything about game design, critical thinking is a gift we are all capable of utilizing and many people have experience with gaming even if they don't pursue it as a profession and that does allow insight/comprehension. 

and players shouldn't have to avoid utilizing the tools of the game to have an adequate experience as I noted in a previous response. that is not only poor balancing, but wasteful management of game functions that took time and money to develop in the first place which can reflect poorly on the overall experience aka poor game design. most games pursue game balance for a reason, it isn't a standard just because most dev teams are extra charitable and willing to go the extra mile, it impacts the experience, heavily.  

not saying need to avoid utilizing tools of the game to have adequate experience. i am saying that if they expect there to always be challenge no matter how cheesy cheep their tactics that they pull off is ignorance. there needs to be a minimum difficulty area since  the star chart doesn't have a clear difficulty boundary so any random joe can wander in any mission. so if lets say they pumped up the difficulty of an easy access place then there could be a new player trap that proceeds to smack new players and players of less experience to the point the new player either stops playing the game entirely, or stops going to that mission node till they are more geared, or they go and complain about the difficult on the forums.  if there isn't a difficulty gate then the difficult minimum needs to be fair enough for said person to get the minimum required experience. 

now if DE decided to work on making a difficult road path, then it is fair by my standards. whether they add some kind of difficulty slider or added a few nodes of a tougher variety is fine by me. 

and sorry but the reason i am arguing about whether it is only DE's fault for warframes state or not is because i don't know you or the other people in this thread thats complaining about the difficulty. if you or someone has a degree in game mechanics or is close to it  then i am sorry, but unless you have the exact know how on how a game like warframe functions in and out you have just as much weight as my words do. 

plus as far as i know everyone that demands for higher difficult doesn't seem to pay in mind to anyone that either is a new player, a causal player (because most people that are vets, or hardcore players seem to insult them a bunch), or a person with some disability that may cause issues in performance. and the just go about stating whatever ludicrous punishment the want to set for if you make a mistake with out a care for others.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

3 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

honestly needs to be a communal effort between the dev's and the players. dev's need to find ways to encourage us to play the game without including power creep and the community needs to get into a mindset that doesn't equal to heavy meta= faster rewards. because thats the whole bit of players do meta builds, which is to farm faster. while this would be better for dev's to reduce the grind by making the stuff more easily obtainable, we the players just need to relax every now and then. honestly admit there have been some times i got impenitent and resort to some tactics that makes it easy for me but in the long run. i might of gotten that item far quicker, i then have nothing to work to. while i can now accept that my actions that if i go the fast and easy route i will end up reducing options of stuff i can do.

True, but as they say "if you build it, they will come". It starts with the devs introducing a meta layer to the game that the players can care and manipulate through play, without dangling +1 stat carrots in front of their faces. Any power fantasy is fleeting since players get used to it quickly, but there are other things we crave, like recognition and a sense of doing something that matters. I have no doubt DE could provide, but I'm not sure they're willing to do that, because while the game might get a stronger foundation to keep veterans around, if there only rewards for those kinds of game mechanics would be achievement based they couldn't monetize them.

If I wasn't sure they wouldn't do it already, I'd have suggested them opening an endgame founders program(with new cosmetics/titles/things that don't affect gameplay.)

[maddragonmaster]

3 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

True, but as they say "if you build it, they will come". It starts with the devs introducing a meta layer to the game that the players can care and manipulate through play, without dangling +1 stat carrots in front of their faces. Any power fantasy is fleeting since players get used to it quickly, but there are other things we crave, like recognition and a sense of doing something that matters. I have no doubt DE could provide, but I'm not sure they're willing to do that, because while the game might get a stronger foundation to keep veterans around, if there only rewards for those kinds of game mechanics would be achievement based they couldn't monetize them.

If I wasn't sure they wouldn't do it already, I'd have suggested them opening an endgame founders program(with new cosmetics/titles/things that don't affect gameplay.)

the idea is to remove the need of the current meta layer, not fortify it. it is the main thing that stresses me to no end. "you have to run this for the best tactic." 'you can play the way you want to play, as long as it is this build." "other builds are trash"  this is why i have strong and firm foot against increasing the difficulty gap in warframe, because i want the attempt of meta to be the most useless it ever can be. as long as difficult or challenging content makes meta builds have a firm foothold, then i am going to make a hard pass. call me spiteful but i resent ever looking up how to build a chroma because i felt very hard pressed into building him one way when i would prefer playing him the other.  "build him with as much strength and duration as possible, forget range it doesn't matter, blah blah blah, he is only effective in boss like eidolon and orb mothers."  

 ever since that happen i slowly grew to be spiteful of meta because i would rather play chroma with enough range to use the spectral scream because he is a dragon themed frame, and that what sold me on him and warframe. a mmorpg that i was a fan of shut down. saw chroma, jumped in and thats all she wrote. rest of the game slowly grew on me.  call my reasons for starting warframe what ever, chroma was still a selling point to me.

[Cubewano]

31 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

not saying need to avoid utilizing tools of the game to have adequate experience. i am saying that if they expect there to always be challenge no matter how cheesy cheep their tactics that they pull off is ignorance. there needs to be a minimum difficulty area since  the star chart doesn't have a clear difficulty boundary so any random joe can wander in any mission. so if lets say they pumped up the difficulty of an easy access place then there could be a new player trap that proceeds to smack new players and players of less experience to the point the new player either stops playing the game entirely, or stops going to that mission node till they are more geared, or they go and complain about the difficult on the forums.  if there isn't a difficulty gate then the difficult minimum needs to be fair enough for said person to get the minimum required experience. 

now if DE decided to work on making a difficult road path, then it is fair by my standards. whether they add some kind of difficulty slider or added a few nodes of a tougher variety is fine by me. 

and sorry but the reason i am arguing about whether it is only DE's fault for warframes state or not is because i don't know you or the other people in this thread thats complaining about the difficulty. if you or someone has a degree in game mechanics or is close to it  then i am sorry, but unless you have the exact know how on how a game like warframe functions in and out you have just as much weight as my words do. 

plus as far as i know everyone that demands for higher difficult doesn't seem to pay in mind to anyone that either is a new player, a causal player (because most people that are vets, or hardcore players seem to insult them a bunch), or a person with some disability that may cause issues in performance. and the just go about stating whatever ludicrous punishment the want to set for if you make a mistake with out a care for others.

that cheese is called power progression and imbalanced tools, it isn't some complex mechanic abuse combination that leads to it, it is genuinely mechanics of the game just not being balanced properly, and the only way to avoid that is to yes, avoid utilizing tools of the game. years ago maybe you'd have a point, where cheese tactics requires specific team compositions and builds along with proper positioning, but just using select frames, weapons, and blanket growth mods, or matchmaking with anyone who has them, makes the game into a walking sim presently, it is not a high effort high complexity feat. that said i'm not sure what makes you think i want the power floor raised to fix this issue, as you note in only impedes on the power scale of beginners, and would leave those with broken tools still all the broken. i think it's more essential to bring in the power ceiling, or more specifically, invent a power ceiling to begin with and then lower it to a reasonable boundary so that the divide between players never gets as exaggerated as it has become.

the problem isn't where we start, it's where we ultimately wind up.

i'd also say the worry for new players being left out by balance shifts is already an existing concern with current power structure of the game, it is easy for a new or non-meta player to feel left out when a single moderately geared player can stomp entire maps in an instant locking those new and non-meta players out of any real play options, i know people who no longer player with others specifically because of that, and i can only imagine how many just stopped playing outright because of such a setup.

in regards to creating difficulty road path, the game already has that, it's called the entire starchart which raises in levels from node to node in a linear pathway that is meant to signify the progression of ones power throughout their gaming experience, and then into things like sorties and arbitrations and eidolons and so and so forth. it falls flat of course because our progression is so out of whack but it is there. note a difficulty slider without harsh rebalances to frames all the same wouldn't work since a lot of what makes us broken is mechanically driven, you can't just brute force your way to a solution with higher numbers for that, as shown by any number of absurd length endurance runs. 

everything else you said i must kindly ask you to lean away from, as it seems to just be a lot of making broadly and grossly negative/condescending assumptions about my or anyone else's position. generalizing is never a good thing, and drawing negative assumptions of my or anyones stances from the get go without just open exploration instead is only going steer against a healthy conversation. now if you think my suggestion has issues with the field you list you can inquire into it, i addressed some of the matter of new players above, and I'd frankly label myself a fairly casual player where gameplay difficulty goes myself so i'm not unconcerned there either,  but if there is more you want to ask about my position in regards to those fields go ahead, but don't assume what my stance is there without actually hearing it. 

as for fault, like it or not it is on de, you can debate how forgiving we should be about those faults, and how difficult a position it is to manage, but the difficultly of the game is entirely de's design and that is just a fact. they made all the mechanics in the game, all the weapons, the frames, the combat interactions, the armor system, the mod scaling, the ability functions, the enemy ai, it is their game with their designs and their choices and it will always be so until the game dies or they sell it to an entirely different dev team then the responsibility would fall on them as the new active developer for the game. they are in charge of all of this and in turn responsible for whatever comes of it.  

 

 

[kevoisvevo]

On 2019-09-27 at 4:21 AM, K4RN4 said:

We already have replayable content. It's called riven mods.

don't know if you are sarcastic or not. watching paint dry is more exciting than rolling for rivens lol

[maddragonmaster]

6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

that cheese is called power progression and imbalanced tools, it isn't some complex mechanic abuse combination that leads to it, it is genuinely mechanics of the game just not being balanced properly, and the only way to avoid that is to yes, avoid utilizing tools of the game. years ago maybe you'd have a point, where cheese tactics requires specific team compositions and builds along with proper positioning, but just using select frames, weapons, and blanket growth mods, or matchmaking with anyone who has them, makes the game into a walking sim presently, it is not a high effort high complexity feat. that said i'm not sure what makes you think i want the power floor raised to fix this issue, as you note in only impedes on the power scale of beginners, and would leave those with broken tools still all the broken. i think it's more essential to bring in the power ceiling, or more specifically, invent a power ceiling to begin with and then lower it to a reasonable boundary so that the divide between players never gets as exaggerated as it has become.

the problem isn't where we start, it's where we ultimately wind up.

i'd also say the worry for new players being left out by balance shifts is already an existing concern with current power structure of the game, it is easy for a new or non-meta player to feel left out when a single moderately geared player can stomp entire maps in an instant locking those new and non-meta players out of any real play options, i know people who no longer player with others specifically because of that, and i can only imagine how many just stopped playing outright because of such a setup.

in regards to creating difficulty road path, the game already has that, it's called the entire starchart which raises in levels from node to node in a linear pathway that is meant to signify the progression of ones power throughout their gaming experience, and then into things like sorties and arbitrations and eidolons and so and so forth. it falls flat of course because our progression is so out of whack but it is there. note a difficulty slider without harsh rebalances to frames all the same wouldn't work since a lot of what makes us broken is mechanically driven, you can't just brute force your way to a solution with higher numbers for that, as shown by any number of absurd length endurance runs. 

everything else you said i must kindly ask you to lean away from, as it seems to just be a lot of making broadly and grossly negative/condescending assumptions about my or anyone else's position. generalizing is never a good thing, and drawing negative assumptions of my or anyones stances from the get go without just open exploration instead is only going steer against a healthy conversation. now if you think my suggestion has issues with the field you list you can inquire into it, i addressed some of the matter of new players above, and I'd frankly label myself a fairly casual player where gameplay difficulty goes myself so i'm not unconcerned there either,  but if there is more you want to ask about my position in regards to those fields go ahead, but don't assume what my stance is there without actually hearing it. 

as for fault, like it or not it is on de, you can debate how forgiving we should be about those faults, and how difficult a position it is to manage, but the difficultly of the game is entirely de's design and that is just a fact. they made all the mechanics in the game, all the weapons, the frames, the combat interactions, the armor system, the mod scaling, the ability functions, the enemy ai, it is their game with their designs and their choices and it will always be so until the game dies or they sell it to an entirely different dev team then the responsibility would fall on them as the new active developer for the game. they are in charge of all of this and in turn responsible for whatever comes of it.  

 

 

i never denied that it wasn't DE's fault. i stated that that community as a whole had some of the blame (though it might of came out wrong) for spreading out the knowledge of the meta builds to other players and kept quiet on those meta builds to avoid alerting DE to their meta builds, or at least threw fits when they do nerf them. when ever there is a meta build made ot found out DE only starts noticing after a great many of players start either stating the issue or notice the usage. when ever there is a word of a nerf the community fights  tooth and nail on those debates, whether the nerf was deserving or not.  how exactly can DE can fix their problem if the community itself is in the way?  they say the want difficulty and challenge but when DE decides to bring in anything that out preforms the way the star chart is currently set up there is a massive uproar.

as for say i am sorry about my assumptions but ever since a certain point of time i grew a bit more and more cautious about the idea of increasing the difficult of warframe. honestly not sure why everyone refers the word difficulty with so much affection. i always refer difficult as a stressful mess only fit for my seething hatred for it. might be just the way i raised but i always found difficult as something you avoid. challenging not sure how i feel, but i don't have a clear dislike of it.

[kevoisvevo]

On 2019-09-27 at 4:37 AM, K4RN4 said:

They build up CC immunities really fast and their health scaling is insane. Have you ever done 20+ rounds?

magus lockdown and madurai void strike. you can solo till round 25 that way with inaros + redeemer prime

[Aldain]

It depends on the structure that Empyrean has and how much of it is based on actions vs how much is based on a numbers game.

The current issue Warframe is facing in terms of difficult or dynamic content comes from the issue of numbers cutting any knot that the devs try to tie for us to undo.

Because of the absurd level of damage that can be reached by some weapons or Warframes it is VERY difficult to design anything that isn't "too easy" because a chucklehead with a Maiming Stike whip can Beyblade their way through everything or a Mesa can press 4 and obliterate a small army.

Anything that CAN stand up to such things usually do so by either immunity or absurd damage reduction, which creates this state of very static "use this and pretty much only this" content (Wolf of "Bring a Radiation Rubico" Six anyone?) which is the opposite end of the extreme.

Empyrean needs to find methods to separate players from their absurd power for the completion of certain goals without making enemies narrow solution sandbags, which is what purpose a Railjack can serve as the combat is a new system that does just that, while also having classical elements and goals that utilize our typical Warframe gameplay without trivializing either of them.

[Hypernaut1]

DE should release a Vet difficulty mode where your stats are 20% less effective and you can only have 1 teammate. 

Enemies are brought back to their original effectiveness (meaning manics will stalk you, Bombards rockets chase you, scorpions will hook you etc, snipers snipe you etc)

A.i. uses nullifiers to hide elite units, don't fall for invisibility too long, ambush players, etc

And I'll watch the same people cry about cheese and nerfs. 

[maddragonmaster]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

It depends on the structure that Empyrean has and how much of it is based on actions vs how much is based on a numbers game.

The current issue Warframe is facing in terms of difficult or dynamic content comes from the issue of numbers cutting any knot that the devs try to tie for us to undo.

Because of the absurd level of damage that can be reached by some weapons or Warframes it is VERY difficult to design anything that isn't "too easy" because a chucklehead with a Maiming Stike whip can Beyblade their way through everything or a Mesa can press 4 and obliterate a small army.

Anything that CAN stand up to such things usually do so by either immunity or absurd damage reduction, which creates this state of very static "use this and pretty much only this" content (Wolf of "Bring a Radiation Rubico" Six anyone?) which is the opposite end of the extreme.

Empyrean needs to find methods to separate players from their absurd power for the completion of certain goals without making enemies narrow solution sandbags, which is what purpose a Railjack can serve as the combat is a new system that does just that, while also having classical elements and goals that utilize our typical Warframe gameplay without trivializing either of them.

this is the main reason i tried to state before. the only issue with how DE is going to fix this is in a way thats going to make plenty of people upset. thus what i stated early by community will make a racket of any changes they don't like, and plenty of people have gotten to their nuke builds. 

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

DE should release a Vet difficulty mode where your stats are 20% less effective and you can only have 1 teammate. 

Enemies are brought back to their original effectiveness (meaning manics will stalk you, Bombards rockets chase you, scorpions will hook you etc, snipers snipe you etc)

A.i. uses nullifiers to hide elite units, don't fall for invisibility too long, ambush players, etc

And I'll watch the same people cry about cheese and nerfs. 

and while i am unsure if your joking, serious, or just taking a stab at the community, those idea's leave me uncertain of how they would be implicated. so it makes me think negatively about it and thus have a negative opinion on difficulty and challenge.  because why bother with anything that's too frustrating in real life? so why bother playing a game thats going to stress you out more then the stresses in  real life? 

Edited September 28, 2019 by maddragonmaster
error

[Hypernaut1]

5 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

this is the main reason i tried to state before. the only issue with how DE is going to fix this is in a way thats going to make plenty of people upset. thus what i stated early by community will make a racket of any changes they don't like, and plenty of people have gotten to their nuke builds. 

and while i am unsure if your joking, serious, or just taking a stab at the community, those idea's leave me uncertain of how they would be implicated. so it makes me think negatively about it and thus have a negative opinion on difficulty and challenge.  because why bother with anything that's too frustrating in real life? so why bother playing a game thats going to stress you out more then the stresses in  real life? 

Those are legitimate difficulty suggestions. I don't think people know what they want when they ask for difficulty. 

This game can be difficult, even with 4 players, but there is ALWAYS a request to nerf effective enemies, even by vets. 

A good portion of the enemies in this game can actually give the player a hard time (without scaling) in their original form. Problem is, anything DE releases an enemt than can actually counter the player, the forums explode with complaints. Anything the enemy does effectivity is considered "cheesing". 

There was a time when even rollers were dangerous, people cried. There was a time when the manic required focus, people cried. Bombards would wreck your defensive run if you didn't have players specifically hunt them out (even a Frost would be spending energy like crazy to maintain globe) Ancients would pull you into a sea of enemies if you weren't aware of their presence. The Nox should be a charging PiTA with a specific weak spot. Bursas were a legit mini-boss that could take a careless team down. There was an endless cry to just get rid of nullifiers. 

This game has had difficulty, but the majority of the player has shown that they hate to lose to anything and prefer to have enemies that go down without a fight. 

What people want seems to be this nebulous level of difficulty that only appears difficult, yet somehow vets succeed at 95% of the time with a sliver of health. 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

A good portion of the enemies in this game can actually give the player a hard time (without scaling)

There's one of the big problems with enemies in Warframe, scaling is messed up and has to keep up with the long-time players who won't lose anyway, but simultaneously can confuse and irritate people who are trying to get into Warframe because the scaling is poorly communicated.

Overall the scaling issue is where difficulty problems arise because both players and enemies scale in a non-linear fashion, which means that one can easily outstrip the other, this in turn causes people to believe the game is too easy until level 1000+ enemies start showing up and having 1-shot hitscan bullets or too easy because players can deal one billion damage with a single bullet which makes enemies just as easy to ignore rather than fight.

By the same effect it can be considered too hard because armor can get to the point where anything that a player throws at the enemy deals scratch damage until a certain break-point is reached or enemies start dealing massive damage with hit-scan bullets meaning a single second can kill you.

Now I'll preface this with saying that I believe the problem is both on the player numbers and the enemy design, not one or the other exclusively.

However blaming the playerbase for not liking clunky design like seeker missiles on Bombards or one-hit-kill Manics isn't going to help anyone. Enemy design needs to be more like how the Nox and Bursa currently are, with more player interaction required with the enemies to down them rather than just "insert this much lead to win" that we have now.

Examples would include enemies that have armor plates or other such weak points that make them easier to kill if shot off or attacks that deal higher amounts of damage (like say a missile barrage from a corpus robot) that if dodged will leave an opening to deal heavy damage through when done. Obviously these examples are very broad and just an illustration of a concept, but the overall issue isn't from the numbers side, and the solution won't be found on the numbers side either.

The design needs to support the gameplay, and currently Warframe is torn between a meat-grinder simulator and a game of rocket tag depending on the level of the player in question and that is why the fanbase is so massively divided, there's little common ground that we all can share to stand on.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

11 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

the idea is to remove the need of the current meta layer, not fortify it. it is the main thing that stresses me to no end. "you have to run this for the best tactic." 'you can play the way you want to play, as long as it is this build." "other builds are trash"  this is why i have strong and firm foot against increasing the difficulty gap in warframe, because i want the attempt of meta to be the most useless it ever can be. as long as difficult or challenging content makes meta builds have a firm foothold, then i am going to make a hard pass. call me spiteful but i resent ever looking up how to build a chroma because i felt very hard pressed into building him one way when i would prefer playing him the other.  "build him with as much strength and duration as possible, forget range it doesn't matter, blah blah blah, he is only effective in boss like eidolon and orb mothers."  

 ever since that happen i slowly grew to be spiteful of meta because i would rather play chroma with enough range to use the spectral scream because he is a dragon themed frame, and that what sold me on him and warframe. a mmorpg that i was a fan of shut down. saw chroma, jumped in and thats all she wrote. rest of the game slowly grew on me.  call my reasons for starting warframe what ever, chroma was still a selling point to me.

Problem is, you're not going to get DE to change anything about the current meta. They have a track record of only nerfing gear if its completely throwing out a huge chunk of the entire arsenal we have available, and then only after enough time has passed for their revenue stream for these weapons(players buying with plat + riven sales) to have dried up enough- usually under the guise of 'respecting player investments'. Sure, they might do something about catchmoon or whatever is currently trending on their stats, but only in half a year so, when they've power creeped it with the next best thing. So that ain't gonna happen.

What I think needs to happen is for an endgame to be implemented that doesn't reward stats or permanent cosmetics, and doesn't require players to oneshot 1000 levels worth of alloy armor. Sure, have those who minmax be more effective and reward their competitive nature with challenge cup like rewards that stay with the top scoring players as long as they are on the top of their respective lists. But if you want sustainable endgame content you need to look beyond rewards and towards fun, satisfaction for playing the game itself, and rewarding the player for playing the game by changing the game world to reflect that. Not just on an community wide scale, but on an individual one too.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

16 hours ago, Proslackernifty said:

I can't wait for the day that DE gives us the "sustainable content" that so many people ask for.  And then I can harvest the tears when those people complain about grinding and time sinks.  

Stay lovely, "sweatshawp"

If the content was fun and engaging people wouldn’t complain about grinding and time sinks.... because they’d love doing it regardless 😉 

cant wait to harvest some resources and have more fun and being engaged when they do implement something like this.

 

stay salty oh wait I didn’t read your name? 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

17 hours ago, 844448 said:

Like nox where he takes little to no damage if not shot at the head or wolf? People cry "it's too hard" or "bad design"

So you can't go beyond the limits? See how people cry it's an unfair nerf hammer from DE and start ringing the bell like it's the end of the world and see how your daikyu with riven no longer feeling strong

With how people claim they blast away and survive level 200+, you want them to have more armor/health/shields? Is that what you mean?

What makes better AI able to give you challenge when you have area damage skills and things like ignis wraith or arca plasmor?

Tell me, are you a player that play warframe for the gameplay or the rewards? Isn't this the nature of humans, only doing something if there's a reward behind it but at the same time don't really want to go through that length for the reward?

You don't want difficult content, you actually want something engaging that can't be automated and looks like you don't even know what you really want and throwing the cliche saying of "challenge", "difficult" and "sustainable"

•nox and wild by Design are great. Nox to this day still isn’t an issue a simple enemy that has a weak point you are supposed to exploit. Wolf was an issue that needed to be rebalanced properly.

• one yes possibly. I don’t see how capping damage or something in that manner is a true issue at the end of the day it’s likely that we’re still going to kill and one shot everything on the star chart short of a few enemies. And I’m okay with my daikyu riven not being broken anymore? If there is a balance for everything Therese a balance for everything.

 

• the goal is to fix the formula so enemies don’t just become unkillable unless your using true damage stripping armor completely and one shots you from everything. A structural fix like that could yield higher or lower enemies depending on how they fix it. So yes and no.

 

• smarter AI being able to do more and possibly effectively counter or negate or dodge our current methods of damage and or abilities and of movement poses as a challenge because we have to be attentive to the enemies as they may not just kill us but restrict and or counter us. They might utilize things that could be detrimental to our movement PlayStyle etc.

 

being that I have pretty much everything I want. I play for fun generally. I don’t care about weps or frames or mods as is now because if I like it I’ll just farm it go to trade chat and buy it or cop it off of a friend. So no rewards don’t really interest me with warframe anymore particularly because the rewards have sucked recently. 

I do want difficulty and more engaging content.

but I’m also fine with just more engaging content that’s fun. It dosent have to be hard or super challenging but rather engaging and more enjoyable then what’s currently on the latter. And while your correct that I don’t know entirely what I want that’s not a terrible thing. It’s Warframe I’m open to see the Devs ides of what sustainable and engaging content is. Not just me many others.

 

youre call of cliche is hilarious to me because I can say your constant questions that yield the same every time is cliche to me. I’d never dare try to knock you for your curiosity however.  I use sustainable and difficult because I’m not the only one who has ideas for these things and my ideas and or suggestions may differ. You can not like want or feel obligated to engage with me if you’d like or if I feel cliche also if you don’t care for the thread why participate in it?

[844448]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

one yes possibly. I don’t see how capping damage or something in that manner is a true issue at the end of the day it’s likely that we’re still going to kill and one shot everything on the star chart short of a few enemies. And I’m okay with my daikyu riven not being broken anymore? If there is a balance for everything Therese a balance for everything.

With capping damage, how high is the cap on enemies? At what level should they stop scaling? And how you make it balanced to prevent people only using a portion of weapons because it has the best DPS?

6 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

smarter AI being able to do more and possibly effectively counter or negate or dodge our current methods of damage and or abilities and of movement poses as a challenge because we have to be attentive to the enemies as they may not just kill us but restrict and or counter us. They might utilize things that could be detrimental to our movement PlayStyle etc.

I had a thread about it, where enemies have airburst grenade to negate our bullet jump spam and it's not seen as something good. Take a look at it

8 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

youre call of cliche is hilarious to me because I can say your constant questions that yield the same every time is cliche to me. I’d never dare try to knock you for your curiosity however.  I use sustainable and difficult because I’m not the only one who has ideas for these things and my ideas and or suggestions may differ. You can not like want or feel obligated to engage with me if you’d like or if I feel cliche also if you don’t care for the thread why participate in it?

Reason I say cliche? We have this used too often just to hide the meaning "we want new content".

Now, how do you make difficult content without resorting to cheap tactics like invincibility, massive damage reduction or weak spot and not overhauling the game from its core such as changing the formula? So far, my ideas for counter and such get a big no no

Then, how to make things sustainable without rewards? So far people fight bosses because the rewards when the fight itself is good, then proceed to trash talk once they got all rewards so how do you make this sustainable content for people with this kind of perspective but doesn't resort to massive grind or low RNG?

So far, I can't find the answer for these two problems that can satisfy all sides and the answer is always the same thing that doesn't solve a thing

[XzWasPzX]

En 27/9/2019 a las 3:21, K4RN4 dijo:

We already have replayable content. It's called riven mods.

We re talking bout sustainable content. Thats not. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

32 minutes ago, 844448 said:

With capping damage, how high is the cap on enemies? At what level should they stop scaling? And how you make it balanced to prevent people only using a portion of weapons because it has the best DPS?

I had a thread about it, where enemies have airburst grenade to negate our bullet jump spam and it's not seen as something good. Take a look at it

Reason I say cliche? We have this used too often just to hide the meaning "we want new content".

Now, how do you make difficult content without resorting to cheap tactics like invincibility, massive damage reduction or weak spot and not overhauling the game from its core such as changing the formula? So far, my ideas for counter and such get a big no no

Then, how to make things sustainable without rewards? So far people fight bosses because the rewards when the fight itself is good, then proceed to trash talk once they got all rewards so how do you make this sustainable content for people with this kind of perspective but doesn't resort to massive grind or low RNG?

So far, I can't find the answer for these two problems that can satisfy all sides and the answer is always the same thing that doesn't solve a thing

• that’s something that would need to be taken in consideration with every weapon frame and ability  to find an adequate balance within the four of level and such 

• I had posted a thread months ago about possibly reworking how forma and weapon damage types work allowing you to modify certain stat % with each forma up to a certain amount and while true it will make strong weapons stronger it would allow for more customization and allow weaker weps to compete.it wasn’t revived well.

 

please link it! I’d love to read!!!!

 

personally I none of that is weak if done correctly! But we can add more boses like the current event and orb  possibly. Enemies or bosses that can regen health if too much damage is done to them from a certain. Damage type to prevent nuking to a degree. 

Enemies or bosses that can revive other enemies and force us to kill the later or them before they continue to do so 

things like that. The issue with warframe is all we have is those mentioned cheap tacts and easy ways to exploit them because of our damage output and ability damage about put. So it’s seen as very trivial and cheap

 

gamemodes that require more engagement things that require our attention. It dosent have to be hard but something other then get to point a then b and boom you win. Adding smaller puzzles or requiring. More to do during a mission adding more voicelines and lore (adding more lor 😞. )and possibly cutscenes immersing the player more during gameplay things of that manner.? It’s up to the devs and as I said i hope with the next mainline and railjack being it’s a blank slate they can provide much more content like such 

 

the thing is you can’t satisfy all sides. From all my conversations with you I can tell you’re a beyond Intelligent being. I respect that and I used to be like you at one point. While I’m more leaning towards “veteran side” I’m an advocate for fun for the general population of warframe. The thing is me and you both know this community is very casualized and tends to shy away or shun out challenge of things that can be completed shortly or with little effort. And another side gets upset about the same. As someone mentioned above it’s both the devs and the players fault for this. DE got very slack with game balancing and created what is current wf meta and the foundation that it stands on till this day. And the playerbase conutined to push this and help shape it .I’d like to try to find a good balance in between 

 

also of course everyone wants content. But I’d rather wait as long as needed if de would produce better content then what theve been offering. I’m not impatient. If de was to release one contentfull mainline a year but it was jam packed to the brim of things and engaging missions quests etc id be satisfied 

Edited September 28, 2019 by (PS4)sweatshawp

[GrimAtrament]

15 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

DE should release a Vet difficulty mode where your stats are 20% less effective and you can only have 1 teammate. 

Enemies are brought back to their original effectiveness (meaning manics will stalk you, Bombards rockets chase you, scorpions will hook you etc, snipers snipe you etc)

A.i. uses nullifiers to hide elite units, don't fall for invisibility too long, ambush players, etc

And I'll watch the same people cry about cheese and nerfs. 

 

19 hours ago, Leyers_of_facade said:

difficult content? not at all likely
in the extremely unlikely case that the content isn't blatantly easy upon release, we will see forum being flooded by nerf requests... and the difficulty will no longer exist.

^ this i see this thread all the time and its almost always by the same people crying to DE to nerf the content.

12 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

 because why bother with anything that's too frustrating in real life? so why bother playing a game thats going to stress you out more then the stresses in  real life? 

because not everyone plays video game as a tool for there escapism?

look at dark souls.

Edited September 28, 2019 by hazerddex

[maddragonmaster]

2 hours ago, hazerddex said:

because not everyone plays video game as a tool for there escapism?

look at dark souls.

never play dark souls and never cared about dark souls. this is a matter of warframe which is a mmo. its an entirely different game from dark souls. so it is pointless to refer dark souls. if you want to have a better reference for games like this then look at other mmo's that manage their difficulty setting better. while i play monster hunter series which has some challenge to it, i do note know what type of challenge or type of difficulty you or the dev's are saying because i keep on getting mixed messages from stuff like the DE staff like one of the dev's saying filthy casual once, and another saying "prepare to die a lot" which has me on the defense the entire time expecting DE to create a type of "difficult challenge" that just evolves wrangling control off my toon and the rest of the teams control of their toons and then beat my and their toons till they send me back to my ship with the failed mission screen. i don't enjoy failing a mission because there is no rewards for failing a mission so i don't see the point in spiking the difficult at all. 

i might blowing the imagining of difficult all out of proportion but it not like the community or developers did anything to easy my concerns. 

[maddragonmaster]

apologize for my outburst. been a sour mood because i been trying to farm something in monster hunter world iceborne and it involves having to break the part on the head of a certain monster with a really strong monster that spams a deadly attack way too often. 

Edited September 28, 2019 by maddragonmaster

[K4RN4]

3 hours ago, XzWasPzX said:

We re talking bout sustainable content. Thats not. 

How is it not? You can sink near infinite amounts of time to get stronger. How is that not sustainable?

[maddragonmaster]

1 minute ago, K4RN4 said:

How is it not? You can sink near infinite amounts of time to get stronger. How is that not sustainable?

whats so sustainable about gathering kuva and then gamble all that kuva away to get an riven of an allready over powered weapon more over powered? if it is already great without a riven then it is pointless.