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Why Content Doesn't Matter


Ceroneous
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While playing MHW I started to realize how multilayered and engaging the content was on that game and that is because the strategy, skill and struggle to improve that makes the time investment worth it. After taking a break from Warframe due to the horrible relic farm for the Rhino unvaulting in 2018, I honestly haven't opened a relic ever since and I've realized why no matter what DE releases it will never matter the way it is atm. The main problem with Warframe content is the unimportance of the enemies, objectives and rewards. Literally most players including me don't bother to kill enemies on a majority of maps, we just zoom through maps to complete the objectives as fast as possible for 5000 credits. What Warframe needs is to slow the game down drastically, so that each map can be utilized to it's fullest. DE needs to give players a reason to strategically think, develop skills, and not run through the map carelessly. Gameplay IMO should be revamped so that enemies aren't just fodder, and get killed by overpowered weapons. 

Ways to make content matter:

---Slow down pacing of the game by introducing stronger complex enemies that require skill development to defeat

(basically make it so bosses take around 20-30mins to beat with abilities and situtations that players have to learn to overcome that boss)

(good job on the ropalyst boss, but it needs another step further)

---Give rewards that matter and bonuses based on objective completion

(EX: Kuva rewards as a bonus for completing an objective)

---Introduce unique mechanics and situations for maps

(EX: Maybe there could be something like turrets that a team can utilize to take down a boss)

-Make rifles and other weapons matter

(EX: Make weapons like staticor  have like 3 AOE charge blasts and needing  to cool down after 3 uses to discourage spamming )

(Basically make multilayered weapons, they are just to simple and strong atm)

---Multilayered enemies

(Enemies are like the Nox and bombard should not be fodder, unique mechanics like shooting the helmet for increased damage is a good start)

(EX: Noxes, Noxi? should be absolutely scary to face, make them tankier and require helmet breaking to kill, bombards can have weak spots in their armor)

(Of course if enemies get stronger than the amount we face should adjust for balance)

---Make encounters with a sense of importance

(Each room in a map should be dangerous, at no point should players just run by enemies, maybe introduce room objectives and better rewards)

(Maps don't have to be so big either with this change)

(Include traps possibly, special buffs, room specific special weapons,etc.)

Conclusion: Warframe is unique of game course ,but as it is players are just too powerful, and content has to be absurdly difficult too even survive us. That's where it becomes tedious such as the Wolf of Saturn Six's huge HP pool and other issues like maps not having engaging encounters, and rewards to warrant playing the content. Overall the game isn't really being played right now, content is just being cheesed, hell I can't even remembers maps on the star chart since us players have just ran through most of it.

I do think there's a lot of positives in the game like the story quests, customization, and so on ,but I can't remember when I actually cared about taking down enemies.

What does everyone else think?

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While playing MHW I started to realize how multilayered and engaging the content was on that game and that is because the strategy, skill and struggle to improve that makes the time investment worth it. After taking a break from Warframe due to the horrible relic farm for the Rhino unvaulting in 2018, I honestly haven't opened a relic ever since and I've realized why no matter what DE releases it will never matter the way it is atm. The main problem with Warframe content is the unimportance of the enemies, objectives and rewards. Literally most players including me don't bother to kill enemies on a majority of maps, we just zoom through maps to complete the objectives as fast as possible for 5000 credits. What Warframe needs is to slow the game down drastically, so that each map can be utilized to it's fullest. DE needs to give players a reason to strategically think, develop skills, and not run through the map carelessly. Gameplay IMO should be revamped so that enemies aren't just fodder, and get killed by overpowered weapons. 

Ways to make content matter:

---Slow down pacing of the game by introducing stronger complex enemies that require skill development to defeat

(basically make it so bosses take around 20-30mins to beat with abilities and situtations that players have to learn to overcome that boss)

(good job on the ropalyst boss, but it needs another step further)

---Give rewards that matter and bonuses based on objective completion

(EX: Kuva rewards as a bonus for completing an objective)

---Introduce unique mechanics and situations for maps

(EX: Maybe there could be something like turrets that a team can utilize to take down a boss)

-Make rifles and other weapons matter

(EX: Make weapons like staticor  have like 3 AOE charge blasts and needing  to cool down after 3 uses to discourage spamming )

(Basically make multilayered weapons, they are just to simple and strong atm)

---Multilayered enemies

(Enemies are like the Nox and bombard should not be fodder, unique mechanics like shooting the helmet for increased damage is a good start)

(EX: Noxes, Noxi? should be absolutely scary to face, make them tankier and require helmet breaking to kill, bombards can have weak spots in their armor)

(Of course if enemies get stronger than the amount we face should adjust for balance)

---Make encounters with a sense of importance

(Each room in a map should be dangerous, at no point should players just run by enemies, maybe introduce room objectives and better rewards)

(Maps don't have to be so big either with this change)

(Include traps possibly, special buffs, room specific special weapons,etc.)

Conclusion: Warframe is unique of game course ,but as it is players are just too powerful, and content has to be absurdly difficult too even survive us. That's where it becomes tedious such as the Wolf of Saturn Six's huge HP pool and other issues like maps not having engaging encounters, and rewards to warrant playing the content. Overall the game isn't really being played right now, content is just being cheesed, hell I can't even remembers maps on the star chart since us players have just ran through most of it.

I do think there's a lot of positives in the game like the story quests, customization, and so on ,but I can't remember when I actually cared about taking down enemies.

What does everyone else think?

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as much these are sound nice but the game already build thus far and can't revert to all these suggestion easily. Even if DE wanting to improve one of these...it take them months or years. the core game is already fast-pace tho, we can't slow down at this point. MH series on other hand has its core since very beginning..on World part however...was developed by different team (fresh maybe)...gameplay might feel different but core still there..you still hunting monster

so what im implying is...you can't change the core gameplay that has been set since the beginning. Sure melee 3.0 is (probably?) coming that might change melee as we know it but true to be told here....we still press E quickly as possible as before

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1 minute ago, ZzVinniezZ said:

as much these are sound nice but the game already build thus far and can't revert to all these suggestion easily. Even if DE wanting to improve one of these...it take them months or years. the core game is already fast-pace tho, we can't slow down at this point. MH series on other hand has its core since very beginning..on World part however...was developed by different team (fresh maybe)...gameplay might feel different but core still there..you still hunting monster

so what im implying is...you can't change the core gameplay that has been set since the beginning. Sure melee 3.0 is (probably?) coming that might change melee as we know it but true to be told here....we still press E quickly as possible as before

i mean of course they can slow down, just as they've sped things up over the year, it's just a matter of proper balancing. just cutting down on the effectiveness of aoe tools would bring back the pacing of combat for this game a hot bit. warframe wasn't always a mindbogglingly fast as it is today, gameplay used to be more responsive and less melt the room as you run, aiming was somewhat valuable at a point even, and you'd need an organized team to do what single frames can potentially do today, it isn't a matter of it being a part of the games core at this point, just a matter of design direction and game balance, and in that regard I agree with the op that better (and slower) pacing would do wonders for this game. maybe not drastically slower, but slower all the same. it's hard to expect people to remain satisfied with such bare bones combat loop in the long term as we have now, where most of the experience is a blur, and engagement is set at the barest of minimum, made even worse when this is supposed to be and advertised as a co-operative shooter.

so yeah...the beginning was slower paced actually and it's not remotely impossible to scale present pacing back with the will power for it. the core of this game wasn't made with present pacing in mind and that's probably part of why game balance is such a hot mess nowadays for that matter. 

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~ Complains about content not important ~

59 minutes ago, Ceroneous said:

What Warframe needs is to slow the game down drastically, so that each map can be utilized to it's fullest.

~ Willingly chooses to zoom through the map ignoring enemies for the 5000 credits ~

200.gif

 

Edited by Uhkretor
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15 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

i mean of course they can slow down, just as they've sped things up over the year, it's just a matter of proper balancing. just cutting down on the effectiveness of aoe tools would bring back the pacing of combat for this game a hot bit. warframe wasn't always a mindbogglingly fast as it is today, gameplay used to be more responsive and less melt the room as you run, aiming was somewhat valuable at a point even, and you'd need an organized team to do what single frames can potentially do today, it isn't a matter of it being a part of the games core at this point, just a matter of design direction and game balance, and in that regard I agree with the op that better (and slower) pacing would do wonders for this game. maybe not drastically slower, but slower all the same. it's hard to expect people to remain satisfied with such bare bones combat loop in the long term as we have now, where most of the experience is a blur, and engagement is set at the barest of minimum, made even worse when this is supposed to be and advertised as a co-operative shooter.

so yeah...the beginning was slower paced actually and it's not remotely impossible to scale present pacing back with the will power for it. the core of this game wasn't made with present pacing in mind and that's probably part of why game balance is such a hot mess nowadays for that matter. 

true...but the problem right now is game balancing. Enemy armor need a better scaling than what we have now, they are really bullet sponge and warframe power is meh to anything beyond level 50 (except for few warframe who can kill high level enemies)

Edited by ZzVinniezZ
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BTW guys to clarify I'm not comparing the two, I'm just making observations that I've noticed about the state of the game and I'm not saying changes gotta happen to all content I just mean I think some ideas should be incorporated or experimented with into new content.

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11 minutes ago, ZzVinniezZ said:

true...but the problem right now is game balancing. Enemy armor need a better scaling than what we have now, they are really bullet sponge and warframe power is meh to anything beyond level 50 (except for few warframe who can kill high level enemies)

which is a part of pacing, and worth addressing, though I disagree that enemy scaling is the primary problem when we have frames that can handle enemies well into the thousands of levels with little struggle, and clear rooms of enemies in the triple digits within moments. players have out paced pretty much all enemy mechanics, which is why de have to put so much work and restrictions into new bosses to keep them from immediately being invalidated by the sheer scale of our powers. enemy scaling was a problem like three years ago when we weren't even half as strong as we are now and enemies could still pose a threat, right now the priority should be fixing us (at least partially so that we operate within some level of a reasonable power range) then moving onto scaling. 

Edited by Cubewano
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15 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

~ Complains about content not important ~

~ Willingly chooses to zoom through the map ignoring enemies for the 5000 credits ~

200.gif

 

I also reinforce the idea that encounters are not rewarding therefore creating circumstances where WE speed through every map. Please don't cherry pick, looking for a respectable discussion, if you have a counter point bring it up it might change my mind.

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I'm gonna say no to 30 minutes to fight ONE boss. That is a long-ass battle against a single opponent, and a real pain if you mess up (especially if combined with other ways to slow things down) because you can't just pop right back in at the start of the boss fight, you'll be clearing the entire level again.

And also, no thank you to Nox-style enemies being made more common until DE stops making weapons that can't headshot. My Arca Plasmor cries sad little tears every time I run into one.

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... I do have a counter point, but its as much of your interest as enemies you find on a given map since you, or anyone else that does the same thing for that matter, willingly chose to zoom through the map ignoring enemies...

19 minutes ago, Ceroneous said:

I also reinforce the idea that encounters are not rewarding therefore creating circumstances where WE speed through every map.

Encounters are rewarding, provided you don't aim solely for those 5000 credits.

You get paid proportionally to the amount of work you do... If you do nothing other than aiming for those 5000 credits, then you only get those 5000 credits.

 

... so~, what's your point again?

Edited by Uhkretor
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1 hour ago, Ceroneous said:

While playing MHW I started to realize how multilayered and engaging the content was on that game and that is because the strategy, skill and struggle to improve that makes the time investment worth it. After taking a break from Warframe due to the horrible relic farm for the Rhino unvaulting in 2018, I honestly haven't opened a relic ever since and I've realized why no matter what DE releases it will never matter the way it is atm. The main problem with Warframe content is the unimportance of the enemies, objectives and rewards. Literally most players including me don't bother to kill enemies on a majority of maps, we just zoom through maps to complete the objectives as fast as possible for 5000 credits. What Warframe needs is to slow the game down drastically, so that each map can be utilized to it's fullest. DE needs to give players a reason to strategically think, develop skills, and not run through the map carelessly. Gameplay IMO should be revamped so that enemies aren't just fodder, and get killed by overpowered weapons. 

Ways to make content matter:

---Slow down pacing of the game by introducing stronger complex enemies that require skill development to defeat

(basically make it so bosses take around 20-30mins to beat with abilities and situtations that players have to learn to overcome that boss)

(good job on the ropalyst boss, but it needs another step further)

---Give rewards that matter and bonuses based on objective completion

(EX: Kuva rewards as a bonus for completing an objective)

---Introduce unique mechanics and situations for maps

(EX: Maybe there could be something like turrets that a team can utilize to take down a boss)

-Make rifles and other weapons matter

(EX: Make weapons like staticor  have like 3 AOE charge blasts and needing  to cool down after 3 uses to discourage spamming )

(Basically make multilayered weapons, they are just to simple and strong atm)

---Multilayered enemies

(Enemies are like the Nox and bombard should not be fodder, unique mechanics like shooting the helmet for increased damage is a good start)

(EX: Noxes, Noxi? should be absolutely scary to face, make them tankier and require helmet breaking to kill, bombards can have weak spots in their armor)

(Of course if enemies get stronger than the amount we face should adjust for balance)

---Make encounters with a sense of importance

(Each room in a map should be dangerous, at no point should players just run by enemies, maybe introduce room objectives and better rewards)

(Maps don't have to be so big either with this change)

(Include traps possibly, special buffs, room specific special weapons,etc.)

Conclusion: Warframe is unique of game course ,but as it is players are just too powerful, and content has to be absurdly difficult too even survive us. That's where it becomes tedious such as the Wolf of Saturn Six's huge HP pool and other issues like maps not having engaging encounters, and rewards to warrant playing the content. Overall the game isn't really being played right now, content is just being cheesed, hell I can't even remembers maps on the star chart since us players have just ran through most of it.

I do think there's a lot of positives in the game like the story quests, customization, and so on ,but I can't remember when I actually cared about taking down enemies.

What does everyone else think?

I disagree.  We have plodding, damage-phased, sponge enemies already that compensate with indiscriminate AoE damage and Mob Spawn Spam.

What is needed are enemies that are as fast and mobile and deadly as Warframes.

The most obvious comparison for me are those NASTY midsized tan, tick-like Orbs that pop and go nuts trying to kill you.  They are infinitely more fun to fight than Orb Mother.

The NW Season 2 boss flirts with this.

Old school Manics that had a pounce finisher were a great example. (RIP nerf)

When is the last time something in the game ran at you and it gave you pause?  

That quick dude in the summer squirt gun fight?  😆😆😆

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

Comparing a game where you basically chase & fight one giant boss with a melee weapon with a game where you fight hordes of enemies by the hundreds with all sorts of weapons + powers

Seems legit

It does unless you can explain what is inaccurate/inapplicable about the ops claims. 

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I was going write a literal wall of text about how you have the right philosophy but your context is garbage but then I got hungry so I'll just opine that you're espousing how content rich a game where they literally recolor the monster with no other changes and call it !!!new content!!! is.

k.

i like MHW, but it's just as grindy and simple as WF is... actually it's more. On both counts. Also speedrunning MHW is totally a thing, because rare drops, much like WF, are pretty predatory. But good luck getting those epic streamstones. *waves in palico*

Edited by -Kittens-
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37 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I disagree.  We have plodding, damage-phased, sponge enemies already that compensate with indiscriminate AoE damage and Mob Spawn Spam.

What is needed are enemies that are as fast and mobile and deadly as Warframes.

The most obvious comparison for me are those NASTY midsized tan, tick-like Orbs that pop and go nuts trying to kill you.  They are infinitely more fun to fight than Orb Mother.

The NW Season 2 boss flirts with this.

Old school Manics that had a pounce finisher were a great example. (RIP nerf)

When is the last time something in the game ran at you and it gave you pause?  

That quick dude in the summer squirt gun fight?  😆😆😆

 

 

 

I like that, thanks for adding to the discussion, gave me another perspective about another direction new content could go.

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48 minutes ago, Daliena06 said:

I'm gonna say no to 30 minutes to fight ONE boss. That is a long-ass battle against a single opponent, and a real pain if you mess up (especially if combined with other ways to slow things down) because you can't just pop right back in at the start of the boss fight, you'll be clearing the entire level again.

And also, no thank you to Nox-style enemies being made more common until DE stops making weapons that can't headshot. My Arca Plasmor cries sad little tears every time I run into one.

I am not promoting tedious battles or Nox style enemies just situations where we can be more engaged and less shoot first all the time. But yess I agree I may have been too generous about the complete time for boss fights lol. 

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Ehh... I agree with your stance, but I think you may have gone too far in the other direction without considering some inbetween options.

I do agree Warframe could be "slowed" down. But by that, I don't mean arbitrary blocks like your standard single-player mission based game. I would rather parkour required more skill rather than how mind-numbingly easy it is now. Maybe make it that you could run past maybe 1 or 2 enemies, but any more would gun you down if you tried to ignore them. Or give enemies tether grenades. You'd think with how long they've fought the tenno, tether grenades would be standard issue by now. Maybe make it that enemies are quicker to lock down a tile making it that if you want to move fast, you have to both move fast and undetected if you don't want to be locked in.

I understand all of these are annoyances but it doesn't make sense for the enemy to let you through easily. They know of our speed and countermeasures should be introduced. However, if this will slow down the mission, rewards also need to be looked at to factor in the increase mission time. Make side objectives that give you bonus rewards. Complete mission undetected? More credits. Sabotaging the facility or ship? More bonus credits. Finding the leader of that enemy contingent and capturing him? Never enough credits. You can easily fit a lot of side objectives into a single node. However that player may have chosen that node for a focused objective (certain material or needed to complete for event) and can choose to ignore side objectives.

Bosses should most definitely not take 30 minutes to kill unless you are running underleveled and inneffective weapons. I think the kill time for normal bosses, 10 minutes max for the average player is reasonable. Considering you were referencing MHW, you should know that depending on the skill of the player, a hunt can be under 5 minutes on average. Under 3 for a skilled and lucky player, and if you are trying to speedrun, under 2 minutes.

I also think your topic is a bit too broad and some of the points you brought up deserve their own threads.

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49 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I do have a counter point, but its as much of your interest as enemies you find on a given map since you, or anyone else that does the same thing for that matter, willingly chose to zoom through the map ignoring enemies...

Encounters are rewarding, provided you don't aim solely for those 5000 credits.

You get paid proportionally to the amount of work you do... If you do nothing other than aiming for those 5000 credits, then you only get those 5000 credits.

 

... so~, what's your point again?

My point is that we are literally skipping enemies/content without having a reason to participate in it, literally parts of the map have no other reason to exist and therefore is often just ran through. I'm not promoting that all content should be revised nor am denying that willful choice isn't a part of skipping areas, instead I'm saying that perhaps new content should be more purposeful, and allow room for more strategic decisions so as to not allow for cheese (AKA skipping past) basically. I believe that filling that space where we run through with purposeful map design and engaging unique enemies/situations can be beneficial. 

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