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Kaotyke

What we can have for difficulty?

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I've been pondering this for a bit now.

A lot of people in these Forums come and go asking for difficult content to test their weapons on. And I was just imagining what would those words entail.

Enemies with a Sh*BLEEP*ton of health would be the dreaded bullet sponges.

Enemies that can CC you around are annoying.

Enemies that disrupt your powers are cheesy.

Enemies that can OHK you are dairy products.

Enemies that are too mobile are a nuisense.

Enemies that have invincibility phases are spoiled milk.

Enemies with weakspots are aiming tests.

Enemies that ignore powers are fake difficulty.

In so many instances I see people asking for difficulty, but here I am, putting every single thing that comes to mind that would make the game more difficult and it turns out that: its not the kind of difficulty people want. Its not the kind of difficulty people ask for. Its not ANY kind of difficulty.

We have people asking for difficulty and never especifying what it is. Just "Difficulty". I could send a level 6868 Stalker on your ASS and he wouldnt be called difficult.

What would be difficult?

We have powers, mods and Arcanes that deal % HP damage.

We can do infinite CC on enemies that are not immune or has diminishing returns.

We have weapons that, with the right setups, will deal humongous numbers of (often unecessary) damage (looking at you, Rubico with Rhino Roar and hitting enemies with 20k HP)

Methods of healling and Warframes that will only let you die if you screw up (Dont hit the Zipline of Ivara with an explosive weapon, it has a hitbox)

And we have to remember what kind of game this is: a Horde type. We are meant to destroy such numbers of enemies.

At this point, I believe the Demolishers are the kind of enemies we need. Yeah, I know. They are just a combination of annoying, cheesy, fake difficulty and bullet sponges, but even then we have people who can completly destroy them in seconds.

The Wolf was an enemy that had the most glaring combination of them all: MASSIVE Bullet Sponge, immunity to powers, Weakspot (the eye seemed to have an 8x multiplier along with being a headshot, making it do 16x damage) and he could OHK the squishiest frames after being level 60 while the likes of Inaros and Nidus would go out and grab some drinks as they just let the Wolf innefectively wail on them.

DE has the infamous WhiteBoard, and one of the topics are "Difficulty".

And I have to wonder is who the F*BLEEP*CK will play a "hardcore" level if it doesnt reward them. Because everything these days are about the damn rewards. Screw a good gameplay loop, screw having fun. How can you REWARD me for that? Damn mercenaries.

One of the things that come to mind is: give the resource a higher drops chance, resource quantity boost, a credit multiplier and Mod drop chance multiplier*. Because we mmust reward those people or they wont play!

Enemy level is drastically increased (begin at 300 on EARTH), but their damage is capped. This means certian enemies on Earth will ALWAYS deal, say: 30 damage to you. Enemies on venus will deal 35, on Pluto is 70... You catch my drift. BUT they also deals a small % of your HP as damage as well, like... 1% for fast firing enemies and 10-20% to the likes of Bombards and snipers and melee enemies.

All abilities of CC have diminishing returns, with a cap of lasting 70% less, enemies have Ability damage resitence of 90%.

Status is resisted, enemies with shields wont get proc'd by status unless the shields are depleted first, toxin doesnt by-pass the shields.

Certian Melee enemies will rush you while pulsing a Nullifer Disruption field like the Demolishers to get rid of your pesky Iron Skin, Instead of Explosive granades, the grandes will do Nulifier pulses after detonating. Doing no damage, but also getting rid of your pesky Link and Blessing Combo, those granades and enemies will ALSO reset your Adaptation, so keep your ass moving.

Snipers will have a rough idea on where your Invisible Warframe is and shoot that place. They will have less 50% Accuracy, but you will need to keep your ass moving.

Headshot multiplier is 2,5x instead of 2x.

Corrosive proc is now temporary: lasting 5 seconds.

Power that strip Armor last longer: 10s, but they restore armor after that time.

Corrosive Projection is 1/4 as effective.

Covert Lethality now deals 50% of enemy HP instead of fatal.

Mods and powers that deal % enemy HP as damage are now capped at 50;5 at most.

Magus Lockdown doesnt tether enemies so they can get out of the radius if they move. Max number of 1 mine per enemy so no spamming. Trying to use it again will make the enemy shrug it off and take no damage. Same as Magus Overload.

Enemy numbers are DRASTICALLY decreased*.

We now have a different game type: not a horde shooter anymore.

*The increased % of drop/boost chance has to be worth it to reward the mode.

Reward. Reward. R-e-w-a-r-d.

If I wispher in their ears this word, would they get excited?

To activade your Hard-On mode, just click a button on Navigation or something... it will make a copy of the Starchart and only the people playing this mode will show/spawn in your mission.

Will these suggestions work, @[DE]Steve? I'm unsure. The forum goers are very divided and/or indecisive on what they want for difficulty.

But they keep saying they want it. Like people asking for good food. And when we bring an Argentinian Sirloin Cap, they scream "THIS IS NOT GOOD FOOD!". And when we ask "What kind of food?" They just scream "THE GOOD KIND!". I dont envy your guys on this front a single bit.

I tried.

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I thought hard mode is nightmare missions. They could add some additional modifiers to that mode, like no ammo drops, health drops, cc immunity ontop of adding certain existing Sortie limits like (melee only) etc. But it doesnt really add difficulty it just pushes people into solely 1 style of gameplay for each modifier (which is always the most efficient). Especially when rewards are concerned.

I think the game is difficult its just anyone whos played for more than 24 hours is probably well conditioned in whats required to beat the games challenging aspects. So at this point i think if you want challenge look to PVP/team death match. You'll find your challenge against humans not AI.

I thought i liked challenge. However a very bad experience in Dragon Nest from the lvl 24 cap to level 70 cap made me much wiser. The challenges became a chore and it shoehorned groups of players into just hating any class or combo that was considered "inefficient" or disadvantaged to the group. This created a very toxic culture in the community. Things escelated when Shanda moved the challenging content that was previously solely in raids into general content. It killed allot of relationships because "oh we cant do this with you because your class is no good" or "youre undergeared" or "Youre blocked because you wiped us last time" or "sorry we got someone else who has better gear then you" or "lets wait for someone who has god tier equipment".

Its fascinating to see Blade and Soul currently stuck in the same mess Dragon Nest had. The thing is if you only have just 20minutes to 1 hour a day to play a game. You dont want to be studying up every single mechanic or browsing youtube to find your answers. Im thankful that DE so far has avoided falling into such a spiral. But with the angry youtubers and streamers about. Im fearful for what the future might bring.

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<Forum goer.

I haven't once asked for difficulty.

But then I also understand that it is a looter shooter based off of tedium and not a typical MMO based off of difficulty. There are tons of games out there for difficulty.

I think it is fine as it is but that is my personal opinion.

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5 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

I've been pondering this for a bit now.

A lot of people in these Forums come and go asking for difficult content to test their weapons on. And I was just imagining what would those words entail.

Enemies with a Sh*BLEEP*ton of health would be the dreaded bullet sponges.

Enemies that can CC you around are annoying.

Enemies that disrupt your powers are cheesy.

Enemies that can OHK you are dairy products.

Enemies that are too mobile are a nuisense.

Enemies that have invincibility phases are spoiled milk.

Enemies with weakspots are aiming tests.

Enemies that ignore powers are fake difficulty.

In so many instances I see people asking for difficulty, but here I am, putting every single thing that comes to mind that would make the game more difficult and it turns out that: its not the kind of difficulty people want. Its not the kind of difficulty people ask for. Its not ANY kind of difficulty.

We have people asking for difficulty and never especifying what it is. Just "Difficulty". I could send a level 6868 Stalker on your ASS and he wouldnt be called difficult.

What would be difficult?

We have powers, mods and Arcanes that deal % HP damage.

We can do infinite CC on enemies that are not immune or has diminishing returns.

We have weapons that, with the right setups, will deal humongous numbers of (often unecessary) damage (looking at you, Rubico with Rhino Roar and hitting enemies with 20k HP)

Methods of healling and Warframes that will only let you die if you screw up (Dont hit the Zipline of Ivara with an explosive weapon, it has a hitbox)

And we have to remember what kind of game this is: a Horde type. We are meant to destroy such numbers of enemies.

At this point, I believe the Demolishers are the kind of enemies we need. Yeah, I know. They are just a combination of annoying, cheesy, fake difficulty and bullet sponges, but even then we have people who can completly destroy them in seconds.

The Wolf was an enemy that had the most glaring combination of them all: MASSIVE Bullet Sponge, immunity to powers, Weakspot (the eye seemed to have an 8x multiplier along with being a headshot, making it do 16x damage) and he could OHK the squishiest frames after being level 60 while the likes of Inaros and Nidus would go out and grab some drinks as they just let the Wolf innefectively wail on them.

DE has the infamous WhiteBoard, and one of the topics are "Difficulty".

And I have to wonder is who the F*BLEEP*CK will play a "hardcore" level if it doesnt reward them. Because everything these days are about the damn rewards. Screw a good gameplay loop, screw having fun. How can you REWARD me for that? Damn mercenaries.

One of the things that come to mind is: give the resource a higher drops chance, resource quantity boost, a credit multiplier and Mod drop chance multiplier*. Because we mmust reward those people or they wont play!

Enemy level is drastically increased (begin at 300 on EARTH), but their damage is capped. This means certian enemies on Earth will ALWAYS deal, say: 30 damage to you. Enemies on venus will deal 35, on Pluto is 70... You catch my drift. BUT they also deals a small % of your HP as damage as well, like... 1% for fast firing enemies and 10-20% to the likes of Bombards and snipers and melee enemies.

All abilities of CC have diminishing returns, with a cap of lasting 70% less, enemies have Ability damage resitence of 90%.

Status is resisted, enemies with shields wont get proc'd by status unless the shields are depleted first, toxin doesnt by-pass the shields.

Certian Melee enemies will rush you while pulsing a Nullifer Disruption field like the Demolishers to get rid of your pesky Iron Skin, Instead of Explosive granades, the grandes will do Nulifier pulses after detonating. Doing no damage, but also getting rid of your pesky Link and Blessing Combo, those granades and enemies will ALSO reset your Adaptation, so keep your ass moving.

Snipers will have a rough idea on where your Invisible Warframe is and shoot that place. They will have less 50% Accuracy, but you will need to keep your ass moving.

Headshot multiplier is 2,5x instead of 2x.

Corrosive proc is now temporary: lasting 5 seconds.

Power that strip Armor last longer: 10s, but they restore armor after that time.

Corrosive Projection is 1/4 as effective.

Covert Lethality now deals 50% of enemy HP instead of fatal.

Mods and powers that deal % enemy HP as damage are now capped at 50;5 at most.

Magus Lockdown doesnt tether enemies so they can get out of the radius if they move. Max number of 1 mine per enemy so no spamming. Trying to use it again will make the enemy shrug it off and take no damage. Same as Magus Overload.

Enemy numbers are DRASTICALLY decreased*.

We now have a different game type: not a horde shooter anymore.

*The increased % of drop/boost chance has to be worth it to reward the mode.

Reward. Reward. R-e-w-a-r-d.

If I wispher in their ears this word, would they get excited?

To activade your Hard-On mode, just click a button on Navigation or something... it will make a copy of the Starchart and only the people playing this mode will show/spawn in your mission.

Will these suggestions work, @[DE]Steve? I'm unsure. The forum goers are very divided and/or indecisive on what they want for difficulty.

But they keep saying they want it. Like people asking for good food. And when we bring an Argentinian Sirloin Cap, they scream "THIS IS NOT GOOD FOOD!". And when we ask "What kind of food?" They just scream "THE GOOD KIND!". I dont envy your guys on this front a single bit.

I tried.

The thing about enemies that do the thing that is suggested is that enemies that

 cc

stun 

limit movement 

etc.

arent a bad thing. Yes they are annoying but not every enemy is meant to be a mindless pushover. Personally I believe we need more enemies that do these things as it provides more of a challenge it requires more engagement to handle these enemies and requires you to activity seek out and take care of said problem before it becomes an issue.

 

i agree with diminishing returns completely it negates the spam of moves but I do think it should only cap at around 20%-30% maybe 40% at max as this is a looter horde shooter. 

Capping damage how. Halving damage wouldn't solve the issuses based on how status and elements work along with crit. And capping dammage but boosting enemy level hp armor and more would result in more of a bullet sponge meta making corrosive more common and over valued on missions. Viral and slash would still be very deadly and used almost indefinitely as well. We’d just be doing so much less damage to effectively more tanks targets that may or may not one shot us.

the idea of shielded  enemy’s being immune to status proc is interesting but at the same time given you are nerfing dmg as well as capping ways to do damage and nerfing it as well. Enemies with high shield properties would be a pain in the arse. So have magnetic and corrosive proc on shield to maybe enhance chance of status to apply and have a lower chance of status applying to enemies with shield.

i can say the base headshot multiplier is fine now being that bosting it up by.5 would make a drastic effect for crit Rivens sand harrow. Effectively making harrow a s+++++ frame with a beefy crit multiplier riven and his ult.

corrosive projection is fine imo .

i do agree that covert lethality may need a nerf but at the same time it’s only really really really and issue on stealth frames which are effectively squishy so it’s fair to have high dps but such low armor health values.

in short none of this is possible however . This is too many nerfs to the game and that would honestly kill the game if done even if trying to ween the community off of what it is currently. I think starting with railjack and the next mainline they should start progressively making harder content and enemies with higher ehp armor and shields with some of those tactics you hate above. And slowly bring enemies and content up to the current level and lethality of weapons 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

This is too many nerfs to the game and that would honestly kill the game

Dude... this is why I called this a "Hard-On" Mode. And not a "The whole game should be like this."

Its like the amazing "toggle everything" people keep sprouting about, from the graphics to the mechanics. Let's toggle everything.

Steve said about giving the players the option to adjust the difficulty of the levels in the past (Normal, Hard and so on). So you could play against enemies that are Sortie level on all planets if they wished and with players that put similar level.

And reading  the rest of your text, I have to wonder if you read more than one line of each paragraph, you are speaking of things that would be relevant if I wanted this to change the whole game.

This is not what this thread is about.

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Stop making new guns stronger and stronger? Stop making new mods add more and more height to the power ceiling? Stop making infinite stackable resists? Add more mission tasks untied to killing S#&amp;&#036; and actually use brains/reflexes/movement skill?

Meh, just give us difficulty. So we could pay it a visit, stand there still, tanking whatever comes and oneshotting with our OP-lobbers. Rinse and repeat.

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45 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Dude... this is why I called this a "Hard-On" Mode. And not a "The whole game should be like this."

Its like the amazing "toggle everything" people keep sprouting about, from the graphics to the mechanics. Let's toggle everything.

Steve said about giving the players the option to adjust the difficulty of the levels in the past (Normal, Hard and so on). So you could play against enemies that are Sortie level on all planets if they wished and with players that put similar level.

And reading  the rest of your text, I have to wonder if you read more than one line of each paragraph, you are speaking of things that would be relevant if I wanted this to change the whole game.

This is not what this thread is about.

Even in a separate mode this being complexity different from the core game toggle-able or not it’s an issue amongst what a majority of the community is used to. A lot of people are going to see a hard mode and while me and your are interested in things like this you have to understand that the latter who tries this drastically different style of warframe wont likely enjoy it . That’s not a bad thing but first impressions matter look at how conclave lor and fortuna was revived upon release look at Arbys etc. the light under which the mode is brought to is very important and unless we can ween the playerbase off this super power fantasy  a  hard mode like such that you reccomend wont exist or if implemented would be DOA suffering the same fate as other modes. No upkeep etc

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crowd control - games had made cc good when there are ways to break out of them or because animation/effects/combat isnt so cluttering or random that they are understandable and planned rather than being in the wrong place at the wrong time by luck to be stuck in a loops

ability disruption - disruption on abilities are annoying in a adrenaline paced game but it could be done better if they had more of a blocking effect rather than canceling effect while nullies and drones are artificial answers  that "solves" the problem by just standing there rather than making sheer mechanical base ways to do so or atleast broken for different roles of different cheese

one shot - again is artificial difficulty where fixed scaling is something ppl had been asking for but when warframes dont infinitely scale as well, they give u boring enemies that let u go hours in where u need to learn to cheese to play rather than walk away from it

mobility - the problem with mobility in warframe (although personally i do enjoy some) is again its nothing but a screen clutter of animations/effects/design but mostly they need to be predictable which ill get back to in a minute

invincibility - again its a adrenaline based game so putting a wall instantly out of no where feels like crashing a race car, u can break up several GOOD mechanics in the game giving different roles to different enemies with each having different ways open on how to be handled without being cheesed

aiming test - i see no problem with this for how much ppl love the nox, it may be annoying on eidalon because again its invincibility phases so the most efficient and only way are one shot snipers and its a singular boss that doesnt involve every other mechanic the game focus on

ignore powers - if EVERYTHING ignores EVERY abilities then the only value is having high ehp which again back to scaling when tanking is a strange concept in warframe as where tanks in other games have a role of body blocking, taking aggro, or maybe make an objective like reviving more easy but who needs that wen u have operators

pure difficulty and FAIR difficulty are entirely 2 different things when it comes to game design. pure difficulty is simply making your experience as rough as possible that give players a sense of challenge BUT this style works better for games where players arent power hungry and in a slower paced environment like dark souls or say call of duty. fair difficulty is about creating good but predictable mechanics, this mean the layout needs to be given on simple understanding to the player with multiple mechanical plays to focus on and allowed multiple ways to go about them. fair difficulty is making sure everything has a purpose to use but at the same time making sure nothing is abused but in warframes case everything is divided where dps just go here to nuke cheese, tanks just be go be invincible to look pretty there cheese, stealth is op but honestly for the time mark ppl play why stealth wen u can map clear. theres no absolute reason to be any role but u shouldnt create the pure difficulty system thats sole purpose is to cancel out that style to play but to give it a challenge to play that style but give more importance to use other style of play along side each other giving actual relevance to use something as the same to exactly everything else to create a well balanced gameplay loop. in warframe even i absolutely hate the idea of nerfs im gonna be honest for a fair difficulty system both enemies and our kit need to be properly adjusted such as scaling as a whole works in the game or instead of just nuking we have kits where players need to be active in some way to deal said GOOD dps unlike ember which was just a stat change with still lazy mechanics that isnt even really good to begin with. though honestly difficulty can relate to one thing for sure endgame and to what degree is difficult enough is hard to say sometimes since not every single person is the same but i can definitely they can do alot better in thier current state by mechanics, ai, or abilities. atleast thats how i see it in my own opinion~

 

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Dude, just play long endurance survivals. Challenge yourself. In the end of the day many players would like to test their strength even without a meaningful reward.

And if you implement separate hard gamemode with more/better rewards then everyone will be playing this aside of people who haven't took a bait and playing with their own pace. And there will be someone who will say "ooh this is so hard, i can't make it but I want the reward, DE fixitplz".

Look at the Conclave. It is already good several years separate gamemode, but people still cherish a though of getting those damn exclusive skins. Without actually getting good and earning it.

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46 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Dude, just play long endurance survivals.

No. I dont want to spends too long to get enemies to a high enough level. I literally CANT. I feel like throwing up if I stay sitting for too long. I have to either stand up or walk around.

I made this precisely with the idea to avoid this kind of thing.

I made this in an atempt to make enemies start much stronger, but with their own limitations and buffs so it avoids the dreaded OHK and have everyone run Inaros.

47 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

nd if you implement separate hard gamemode with more/better rewards then everyone will be playing this aside of people who haven't took a bait and playing with their own pace. And there will be someone who will say "ooh this is so hard, i can't make it but I want the reward, DE fixitplz".

Yeah. That is why I put only a multiplier on basic things like credits and resources.

Everything is about reward now. Enjoying the game is a thing of the past.

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2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

No. I dont want to spends too long to get enemies to a high enough level. I literally CANT. I feel like throwing up if I stay sitting for too long. I have to either stand up or walk around.

Currently this is my main issue, having to wait 120 minutes in a survival to get some "challenge" is boring and tedious, and I'm not even talking about meta squads, I do 120 minute kuva survivals while carrying the squad with a Wukong, on public -_-.

For me this is a waste of time, having to wait 2 hours to actually be able to enjoy the build I've worked on for years.

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32 минуты назад, Kaotyke сказал:

No. I dont want to spends too long to get enemies to a high enough level. I literally CANT. I feel like throwing up if I stay sitting for too long. I have to either stand up or walk around.

Then Arbitrations is perhaps the only challenge you can get. Aside of hopping on Sortie Survivals.
Levels there are decent to start off with, no need to yawn and wait for challenge come.

34 минуты назад, Kaotyke сказал:

Everything is about reward now. Enjoying the game is a thing of the past.

One Korean game taught me a lesson about time management and investment / fun ratio.
So I quit playing that game lol.
As long as I have fun I stick with Warframe. The last major burnout happened with me when they've pulled off Orb Mama and Nightwave at once just in time I was catching up with Vallis content after long absense.

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1 hour ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Then Arbitrations is perhaps the only challenge you can get. Aside of hopping on Sortie Survivals.
Levels there are decent to start off with, no need to yawn and wait for challenge come.

Not even that.

I made this thread as to give ideas on difficulty. If Arbitrations gave me that, I wouldnt be making it in the first place.

You are missing the point of this suggestion.

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3 минуты назад, Kaotyke сказал:

Not even that.

I made this thread as to give ideas on difficulty. If Arbitrations gave me that, I wouldnt be making it in the first place.

You are missing the point of this suggestion.

I've already pointed my opinion regarding the topic. Check above.

And let's not forget people were specifically asking DE to make the game easier, more convenient.

Add some power creep on top and here we are.

People need new challenge, untied off their combat stats and power, to be added alongside with regular content. Like additional tasks in endless modes etc. Similar to Sabotage Caches. Or imagine if derelict survival was the only mean to find a vault? So you gotta be trying to survive with dragon keys in your pocket...

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7 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I've already pointed my opinion regarding the topic. Check above.

And I've been pointing out why I dont agree with it. Check above.

7 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And let's not forget people were specifically asking DE to make the game easier, more convenient.

Add some power creep on top and here we are.

And this has to do nothing with this topic.

7 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

People need new challenge, untied off their combat stats and power, to be added alongside with regular content. Like additional tasks in endless modes etc. Similar to Sabotage Caches. Or imagine if derelict survival was the only mean to find a vault? So you gotta be trying to survive with dragon keys in your pocket...

5 Minutes and out. Not hard.

But if you have ideas on how to make more challanges, I would read the thread when you make it.

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3 часа назад, Kaotyke сказал:

Not hard

Gosh. Just how hard you like?

The game doesn't cut you slack when you get all relaxed sometimes. Though again depends on a playstyle.

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Out of the one you have listed I´d say:

Weakpoints - seems to be more of a technical hurdle rather than a problem with people disliking it. From my understanding weakpoints would be one of more appreciated additions at least when they arn´t the only spot you can damage an enemy at all rather than damage bonus for precision.

CC - depends on the type and frequency. Constatnly getting knocked downed without real counterplay is probably the worst feel of all of the listed stuff. I´d say things like slows, grounding, roots or even knock downs can work if they are indicated properly. Also some kind of system that prevents chaining like threshold that enemies need toovercome or more resilience after a recent cc effect.

Mobility - I actually like this kind of stuff if those enemies have proper cooldown/ damage phases

 

Things I´d add or improve upon:

Delayed After death effects - seems to be much more fair compared to things like the annoying drones that can constantly mine the whole area

Auras - better indication like Trinity style links for Ancient Healer or eidolon like ground effects (sparks) for disrupter and a mechanic that prevents them from stacking if you are in the aoe from more than one of the same type.

Better Enemy behaviour - enemies should do far less useless actions like runnning around from cover to cover without any purpose and have better reflexes because there reaction time is hilarious.

Special abilities - For example grineer Commander can mark you (after a delay) for a short period of time and all nearby enemies get increased aggro and accuracy against the marked player

Better ehp distribution between all warframes - currently there can´t be any kind of fair damage value because what´s deadly to one warframe doesn´t even cause a scratch on another one

More and deadly environmental effects - there was a time void laser where an actual threat which probably got changed because of the reason stated above. I´d go as far as adding a death penalty for falling into bottomless pits (and remove the oppressive reset mechanic for the 5m deep ones).

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9 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Gosh. Just how hard you like?

The game doesn't cut you slack when you get all relaxed sometimes. Though again depends on a playstyle.

Very, my dear. That is why I call this a Hard-On.

 

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On 2019-09-29 at 9:14 AM, Kaotyke said:

enemies with shields wont get proc'd by status unless the shields are depleted first, toxin doesnt by-pass the shields.

This idea right here is gold. This should also apply to our warframes as well, as just a mechanic of shields in general.

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1 hour ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

difficulty ? have you tried to solo profit taker with mag ?

Have you tried closing your eyes and playing with your toes?

We can all go out of our way to do things with the intention of making things harder for ourselves, but that doesn't mean there's any difficulty in the game.

 

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7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Have you tried closing your eyes and playing with your toes?

We can all go out of our way to do things with the intention of making things harder for ourselves, but that doesn't mean there's any difficulty in the game.

 

The problem is that with the amount of frames avalaible there always be a way to tone down the difficulty with nuke / tank / buff / CC / removing armor etc...

Then there are some "broken" weapons / gears that makes content  irrelevant : 4 (3) corrosive projection, magus lockdown, maiming strike, condition overload... I don't want the end-game to be "balanced" for these, I'd rather have a nerf of them.

Also the "way" to make harder content with ennemies immunes or dispelling your buff or debuff, without proper "spawning" mechanics, make the game just feels not entretaining : nullifiers spam / parasitic eximus spam / any 1HKO weapons (bombard / grenades). Nightmares and most sortie mutators to "increase" difficuly are also good for the memes at best, and I'd rather have "-100% power strength" or "-100% duration" than "no shield".

And to conclude most players will not like harder difficulty if they can't be carried / and "forced" coop actions will lead to less played content because "new players" will make the game fail, so "older players" will either play with a team or move to other content.

I want harder content, I want nerf of Uber cheesed gears, and I want hard 25min long content that can be done with most builds and in which carrying one noob won't make the game fail and with obviously consistent reward (endo, kuva, riven, etc)

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Part of the reason why the problem of difficulty and challenge in Warframe seems intractable is because we often only look at one aspect of it at a time, when in reality the problem is a combination of many different factors: enemies are cheesy and scale to ridiculous amounts of damage, for example, because our frames are not simply overpowered, but able to use abilities in such a way that there is often no room for interaction. It is impossible to challenge a frame who can make themselves permanently invincible and perma-stun a whole room of enemies at a time, which is why the only counter to that so far has been to make enemies immune to those effects, or make them outright negate them (i.e. Nullifiers). Thus, we are in this lose-lose situation where our power fantasy is implemented poorly, as it trivializes the game, yet the only way to avoid that has been to design enemies that operate by denying our agency, which feels crappy to play against.

As such, I think the solution needs to be a two-parter: first and foremost, we need to reexamine our warframes, and rework/rebalance our abilities so that we can't bypass interacting with the enemy at all times. Secondly, though, after that happens we need to completely take out enemies that negate or ignore our assets, and instead design enemies with more varied tools and tactics: the Jovian Concord update helped significantly in this respect by introducing a variety of flying enemies, allowing for more three-dimensional combat, as well as special enemy types with distinct powers, all of which make for more diverse combat when we're made to deal with those new combat puzzles. Worth noting is that the tileset rework also made a big difference, as the larger and more open tiles mean we were no longer restricted to the monotony of mere corridor shooting. Thus, if we want more challenging and interesting combat, we need to first let ourselves be challenged (via changes to our frames), then design enemies that present us with mechanics to consider and play around, while also updating our environments to enable more diverse combat (i.e. no tilesets that boil down to one long corridor).

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I believe the Eidolons from Plains are a step in the right direction.
The thing why players don't like Eidolons is largely because it largely makes use of Amps and Operators and not much of Warframes and Weapons.

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