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Fake/Illegal Plats

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Dex Xean said:

This is in the EULA

so yea you are screwed and have to deal with it by making a warframe account you agree to the EULA so no you cannot sue for this cuz some person con you out of a item and force your account into negative since it was not DE directly that did that.

EULA's and the often contained "indemnification clause" or "limitation of liability" ONLY protects in a civil suit and does not protect against criminal misconduct. You are 100% right I could not sue them and seek recompense for damages. In that sense, yes, I would be "screwed" as you put it. That is why I specifically said I would file a criminal complaint. No one would go to jail of course, but there could be fines levied against the company.

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3 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

That is absolutely disgusting.

It really is. And threads about this topic usually get locked and or disappear and I gotta say it's not a good look for DE.

 

For people who spend a lot of time in trade chat like I do it might not be that difficult to always have a decent amount of plat "in reserve" so you dont risk going negative but that isnt practical advice for everybody and I really, really dont like the thought of someone having to pay money to get access to the game to undo something somebody else did that they had no control over.

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7 hours ago, Umquaptovis said:

In the interest of fairness i would say allowing the option of either reversing their purchases from most recent to oldes as to prevent a negative balance, or allowing the player to get a reasonable like -50 to 100 plat and say you have 3 days to fix it before we ban you till you pay up would be okay. Then those that really can not afford it can try to fix it with some plat from the market. Rather than being forced out of the game due to things out of their control.

You will actually be given the option of reversing certain purchases through support when you have a negative balance. However, they can only reverse cosmetic purchases from the market because it does not have a stat tracked with it. They can't remove weapons, frames, etc due to the potential problem with Mastery XP and usage stats etc.

 

Generally, this topic doesn't go anywhere because there's no real good solution to it. Forcing people to wait for months before they can trade their Platinum is ridiculous. Creating a loophole for people to funnel a bunch of bad Platinum all over at no cost is devastating to the game. There is simply no satisfactory solution and is really just crying about counterfeit bills being confiscated.

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It's hilarious how blown out of proportion this problem is.  I've traded for years and have made tens of thousands of plat in that time, never had this happen to me.  Maybe this is some big problem on PC or something but I wouldn't know playing on xbox.  I doubt it though, if it really were a big issue that many players had softbans for warframe would have addressed the issue a long time ago or the game would have died.  Not to mention on PC you can get out of the softban with plat coupons that you get over there unless you can't login at all/claim plat coupon login bonus?  I bet if DE released stats on how many people are currently softbanned because of this the number would be smaller then the raiding community that existed when raids were a thing in warframe percentage wise/less then 1% of the playerbase.  

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I skipped this issue with no trading or if I do then I trade with trusted peoples or in house. I am living from my savings what I bought long ago and it is the best option to avoid bad platinum. 

DE have the transaction dates but your trades via player businesses are not recorded. Only if they detect negative play. 

 

Always be sure whom you trade and avoid the uncreative names because they might be potential plat mongers. Keep track the trades by yourself making a screenshot and then you can later verify your part in the deal. 

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Unless you are selling thousands in rivens, you very likely would never run into this issue. Also it would be wise to keep a margin in case you ever get but by the issue of negative plat balance. 

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5 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

That is why I specifically said I would file a criminal complaint. No one would go to jail of course, but there could be fines levied against the company.

Where do you live? Just asking...

You guys are right though, it's a bad system. I understand why the bad plat can't remain in the system (it's not good if the people who bought bad plat or did a chargeback could launder their plats clean by doing this on an alt account, then trade the plats to themselves), but this ways of action not flawed nevertheless. Because 1) if someone is not a complete moron, they can cheat this system anyway 2) a lot of innocent people are punished. I don't think there's any better solution though. Just like irl, if you're caught with counterfeit money, it's just taken away from you, no one will compensate you for the loss, wether or not you were the one who manufactured it is irrelevant.

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Wait, hang on.... did I just really read this?

Is DE not aware of this issue?

 

Any company which decides to allow credit card transactions in their online shops deliberately takes a certain risk of losses. That´s just how CCs work.

Usually, companies have an insurance via the CC company, which is then responsible to get the money back from their customers.

So DE, instead of taking the risk on their own shoulders, hands down the financial damage to the "last" player that received the platinum that had not been paid for??

They put their own risk (of credit card based transactions) and pass it to their player base?!

How totally f***ed up is this (if it is true, and not only a hoax)?

We should maybe raise awareness on DE´s side that this is an issue.

 

The closest solution would of course be, to ban the initial buyer of the platinum and put their accounts into a negative balance that first has to be paid for in order for the ban to be lifted. Those players might of course never pay for their depts, but this way they would eliminate the scammers and avoid repetitions. And if that means that the "bad" platinum remains in the game, then by all means that´s just a drop in the bucket.

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32 minutes ago, IamLoco said:

The closest solution would of course be, to ban the initial buyer of the platinum and put their accounts into a negative balance that first has to be paid for in order for the ban to be lifted. Those players might of course never pay for their depts, but this way they would eliminate the scammers and avoid repetitions. And if that means that the "bad" platinum remains in the game, then by all means that´s just a drop in the bucket.

What's stopping people from regularly creating more dummies to circulate more Platinum into the game? If you don't do anything about that Platinum, it will grow over the months. Eventually, you're looking at millions of Platinum that isn't actually paid for and a lot of it will end up being passed around in trading. It's not just a financial hit on DE but also a potential inflation on the value on Platinum. You would also be fueling dodgy trading with people "selling Platinum for cheap".

DE's definitely aware of the issue, which is why this is the only workable solution they have. Most other options will have significant detrimental effects that will affect the entire game. The only other workable solution, is to completely prevent Platinum trading and potentially trading entirely.

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21 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

And thus why i dont sell stuff for plat. I only buy stuff from other players when really needed and still only with plat i get every 3~4 months from Prime Access.

I wish [DE] kept a Trade/Transaction log for every account and instead of punishing the player who received the fake plat, they would undo the trade and block the account of the fake plat trader.

Well if the plat is removed via Charge-back then most likely the account associated with the Charge-back would be banned. It's standard practice in the gaming industry these days.

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9 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

Generally, this topic doesn't go anywhere because there's no real good solution to it.

I agree with this but at least we can try to talk about it and raise awareness  For instance I was unaware that they could roll back the cosmetics as an option. But you are right there is no perfect fix all here. 

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1 hour ago, Umquaptovis said:

I agree with this but at least we can try to talk about it and raise awareness  For instance I was unaware that they could roll back the cosmetics as an option. But you are right there is no perfect fix all here. 

You honestly think that the bean counters inside DE are not 100% aware of this?    

Regardless..in year 4 alone there were almost 40 million trades....if this issue was even remotely pervasive this forum was would be all about trade bans and negative plat.  Let that sink in...just a little.   Or is this a case of "...if even one person is affected negatively burn it all down and kill everyone"?  Because reading this thread...it is what it feels like.  

 

 

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6 hours ago, IamLoco said:

The closest solution would of course be, to ban the initial buyer of the platinum and put their accounts into a negative balance that first has to be paid for in order for the ban to be lifted. Those players might of course never pay for their depts, but this way they would eliminate the scammers and avoid repetitions. And if that means that the "bad" platinum remains in the game, then by all means that´s just a drop in the bucket.

How would it actually do this though?
Say I create an account, buy 100 USD of plat and trade it away while mule-ing the items back to my main account in a circuitous manner so as to avoid suspicion, and issue a charge-back.  DE bans that account so I create another and repeat that.  DE bans that account as well.  So I create another account and repeat that.

This isn't some B2P game where it takes any time or effort or money to create a new account.  There is absolutely nothing to stop me from creating more and more accounts to do this with, losing DE more and more and more money.
Especially once you see that a charge-back not only removes the money that was given to DE but also gives them a fine, which can very quickly add up.  Charge-backs are made to be very bad for the company that receives them while being very hard to actually fight against, especially since the money is removed and the fine slapped onto the company before they even get proper notification that a charge-back has been filed against them.

25 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

Regardless..in year 4 alone there were almost 40 million trades....if this issue was even remotely pervasive this forum was would be all about trade bans and negative plat.  Let that sink in...just a little.   Or is this a case of "...if even one person is affected negatively burn it all down and kill everyone"?  Because reading this thread...it is what it feels like. 

These threads always seem to turn into some witch-hunt against "big bad DE" when the number of people that suffer from this are very small.  And whenever it is someone harping about their (or a "friends") innocence it just gets bad for everyone involved.

People are just willing to let small things blow massively out of proportion so that they can feel good circle-jerking a non-existent issue.

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4 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

How would it actually do this though?
Say I create an account, buy 100 USD of plat and trade it away while mule-ing the items back to my main account in a circuitous manner so as to avoid suspicion, and issue a charge-back.  DE bans that account so I create another and repeat that.  DE bans that account as well.  So I create another account and repeat that.

This isn't some B2P game where it takes any time or effort or money to create a new account.  There is absolutely nothing to stop me from creating more and more accounts to do this with, losing DE more and more and more money.

And would you also do that from a different PC, a different IP and a different installation of the game itself?

If not, I could bet there is more than one way to bring those fake accounts into correlation with those main accounts. Pretty sure DE has at least the IP and a unique installation ID once you log onto their servers. (Yes, I am aware that IPs can change, be modified or hidden behind proxy servers - but certain values of the IP or the PC ID (/ipconfig) remain the same if you don´t exactly know what you do)

Anyway... this might be a big hoax anyway, as there is apparently little proof that any players have been banned or punished by deleting their currency?

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I have to take DE's side in this.  I think it's unfortunate that potentially innocent people are harmed by the policy, but it has to be in place.  If the policy were not in place, there could be rampant abuse.  I don't think it's a large issue though.  If you read the steam reviews, more trolls are getting banned for being trolls than people banned for having negative plat.

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On 2019-09-30 at 8:31 PM, No1NParticular31 said:

EULA's and the often contained "indemnification clause" or "limitation of liability" ONLY protects in a civil suit and does not protect against criminal misconduct. You are 100% right I could not sue them and seek recompense for damages. In that sense, yes, I would be "screwed" as you put it. That is why I specifically said I would file a criminal complaint. No one would go to jail of course, but there could be fines levied against the company.

if it ever happens, please go all the way in. ballsdeep. make sure to make the most damage out of it. only like this, DE will make a priority to not punish innocent players because of THEIR faulty trade system. it will set a very interesting precedent, forcing them to actually pay attention to this and changing the system to make sure it doesn't happen again.

( in the case it actually happens to you and that you can actually give them fines )

 

as for a solution, just preventing the player to trade platinums that he just bought until the chargeback period is gone. to actually totally prevent any chargeback what so ever. a bit annoying, but then there wouldn't be any more victims.

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8 hours ago, IamLoco said:

And would you also do that from a different PC, a different IP and a different installation of the game itself?

If not, I could bet there is more than one way to bring those fake accounts into correlation with those main accounts. Pretty sure DE has at least the IP and a unique installation ID once you log onto their servers. (Yes, I am aware that IPs can change, be modified or hidden behind proxy servers - but certain values of the IP or the PC ID (/ipconfig) remain the same if you don´t exactly know what you do)

Anyway... this might be a big hoax anyway, as there is apparently little proof that any players have been banned or punished by deleting their currency?

MAC Address can be changed easily while IP can run through a proxy. It's not a practical solution because it won't catch the people who are trying not to be caught if too strict, or catch innocent people by pure chance when their ISP assigns them a blacklisted IP Address if set to be vague. As for different installations of the game, wouldn't work either because of cyber cafes where computers are shared publicly. It doesn't take very long for you to get a new IP address, set a new MAC Address and reinstall the game to become a massive deterrent. Once news gets out that they are tracking them, it becomes a useless precaution.

This is provided, the person in question has a main account as opposed to is just selling the Platinum on cheap to make money. This wouldn't work on someone preying on individuals looking to get Platinum at a cheaper price.

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