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[DE]Rebecca

The Mod Booster and Free to Play.

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9 minutes ago, squirrel_killer- said:

You know what, I agree with you issues with so few farming frames. I just feel your chosen solution was off. The nerf was a poor call. However in the latest Patch notes this list was revealed:

  • Loot while alive: Ivara
  • Loot petrified: Atlas 
  • Loot on death: Wukong, Khora, Hydroid. An enemy can only be killed once, they can’t ‘die’ multiple times.  
  • Loot corpse: Nekros, Chesa

I like this list as it leads into a proposal for a solution to the lack of options.

Of these looters only two are inherently able to loot. The rest require a mod. Mostly augments. The correct solution I feel is to add onto these compatible loot categories and give more frames looter augments. Banshee could loot living enemies with her first ability and enemies frozen by Frost's snowball could become like Ore Gaze for Atlas just as examples. While these abilities have augments already I also feel looter augments shouldn't count against a frames unofficial 1 augment per ability rule. This would expand options for farming, shake up the meta and also add some level of multilayer synergy. Adjust loot chances per frame to try to minimize too many optimal choices and done.

I know I personally would love to use quite a number of frames when grinding resources and mods with friends.

Frost certainly doesn't need a looter aug. His augs are already good and I'd rather see less played frames get these kinds of augs--Valkyr, Nyx, Ember, Vauban, etc

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, WeaselBoy said:

Maybe because Ivara is still by far and away one of the strongest and most versatile frames in the game. The nerfs you listed are so minor that the statement "starting to look like a bleak future" makes me want to keel over with laughter at the absurdity.

She will likely get some changes upon her prime release, every frame does, but she is already in an amazing spot right now that any change would like be quality of life at best. 

I would say its going to depend largely on the player to figure out if they can make Ivara versatile and strong. She certainly can do it, but only if the player bothers to try with her. Its hard to gauge whether people still view Ivara as being versatile or worthwhile to build into. She's at this point, a jack of all trades, master of... well her own self-survival which can still be quite useful. Yes, Ivara has a little bit of this and that in her kit, but she's certainly not considered top pick for anything specifically (in certain categories though, she gets pretty close). Right now, Ivara isn't the best in anything, but she's not the worst either, she's fairly in the middle overall. She's decent overall.

I would hazard a guess, most guides made today in 2019 wouldn't even recommend Ivara as a potential solo-choice oriented frame, mainly because there are better Warframe choices available that require less effort to play or do a better job of trivializing content or just overall better choices in certain situations. That's sad to me, considering back when she was first released in 2015 Ivara was considered an excellent solo-oriented frame back in those days. But Warframe has changed, the game has changed, being slow and methodical isn't considered worthwhile in Wf's gameplay loop nowadays. More often today I hear about people complaining that Ivara was not worthwhile after they farmed her and complained about how underwhelming she was for them.

If I were to ask the average Warframe player what they think Ivara excels in, I'd almost bet the first answer would be spy. And I would be disappointed if they gave that as first answer because Spy isn't difficult nor does one need a stealth frame to complete spy (spy is trivial and very forgiving as a game mode). Sure Ivara can do spy reasonably well, but she's not a requirement nor is any stealth frame needed to complete it (they just make it more convenient to complete it). But I feel like that's the average perception of Ivara all around, that people only think she's good at spy and that's it (obviously the real Ivara players know what she's capable of). First impressions are everything and I'm not exactly confident in the first impression players get when they finally acquire and use Ivara for the first time and try to assess her. But hey, if players are actually using Ivara for spy, at least then she's getting some usage instead of no usage at all.

I would say Ivara is a technical and sometimes complex glass cannon toolbox but will require some actual investment from the player to make her effective. But when players start questioning how to use her toolbox and the amount of effort they have to put in and can't come up with situations in which they want to, then I start growing concerned. The only reason I care is because I'm thinking this will affect her popularity. The only reason I care about that is because Ivara Prime potentially might be coming up after Atlas Prime. The issue, Ivara Prime's release period is the holiday 2019 release slot. That prime release period is known for having popular frames skip ahead of the prime release order for the holiday cash-in. Is Ivara still considered popular in 2019? I'm not sure anymore. Its hard to gauge if there is hype for Ivara Prime coming down the road (there was a little from what I gleaned in other threads, but I was hoping for more). So is there a possibility that Ivara Prime might get pushed back another 3 months from her predicted holiday release date? Maybe (always a possibility given that holiday release time slot). If she does get pushed back, then it means that DE didn't have confidence that Ivara Prime was going to do well in her holiday release slot and that most players don't consider Ivara popular or worthwhile to play with/build into overall. I would love to be wrong and to see my beloved huntress prime in 3 months time instead of 6 months, but we'll have to wait and see. At this point, any quality of life changes that she receives during her Prime release would be greatly appreciated, this is why I want some developer review on her, I'm just begging for anything at this point. That's why I'm concerned about her future, I'd rather be proven wrong though as being wrong would mean her outlook ends up being more optimistic.

Also if anyone pings me about this, Wukong didn't skip order, Wukong was released ahead of Atlas in terms of Warframe releases. Its just that Wukong was released as an early access exclusive to China-Warframe a couple of months ahead of the global version of Warframe.

Edited by BlindStalker

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, BlindStalker said:

I would say its going to depend largely on the player to figure out if they can make Ivara versatile and strong. She certainly can do it, but only if the player bothers to try with her. Its hard to gauge whether people still view Ivara as being versatile or worthwhile to build into. She's at this point, a jack of all trades, master of... well her own self-survival which can still be quite useful. Yes, Ivara has a little bit of this and that in her kit, but she's certainly not considered top pick for anything specifically (in certain categories though, she gets pretty close). Right now, Ivara isn't the best in anything, but she's not the worst either, she's fairly in the middle overall. She's decent overall.

Ivara is one of the the few frames that's in a fantastic spot. As for frames being the "best" at something, that was always a bit subjective. I think Ivara is the best at Spy missions, but Loki has been a top choice for a long time, some players use Limbo, and there are some other decent choices too (Ash, Octavia, Wisp). Ivara can also cheese eidolons pretty well with the right augment and mod setup.

The thing that makes her an amazing frame isn't that she has to be the master of a particular category. It's that her kit is highly flexible to a lot of different scenarios and has strong self-synergy. Other frames that I would put in this category--the extremely well-designed and good frames--would be Wisp, Octavia, Volt (after his rework/update), Nova, and Rhino, just off the top of my head. There are plenty of frames that excel in certain categories, but these ones are all around just very good frames for most situations. In terms of "best design," I would even narrow it down to just Ivara, Wisp, and Octavia.

Edited by FrostDragoon
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20 minutes ago, SQLOwns said:

Does the mod booster affect the entire squad?

Sort of... The roll would be determined by who generated the drop, but if it comes up successful, it would drop an instance of that mod for every person in the squad.

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On 2019-09-30 at 1:59 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Part III: The Loot Frames: 
The third Mistake: not providing closure on the loot-frame changes from The Jovian Concord. We are restoring the loot mechanics to what they were before The Jovian Concord - Warframe Loot Abilities will again be able to yield multiple-drops from already looted corpses. 

Looting abilities serve a very singular purpose - to loot. And when they all stack on the same corpse, they become the only choice for loot-seekers. This puts players in a position of deciding whether or not to bring the frames that have the best looting abilities rather than anything else. Our intentions with the change were to alleviate that, but ultimately we are reverting it in an effort to eliminate bad will that these two items are related in any way. We’d rather make a decision that possibly lessens choice but respects precedent, than have players think the choice was related to a new booster, and actions speak louder than words. We are aiming to get this in on all platforms by tomorrow! 

TBH just give every frame a mod that enhances loot opportunities for one ability.

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6 minutes ago, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

TBH just give every frame a mod that enhances loot opportunities for one ability.

Why do that? If that's the route they wanted to go, they'd just take the easier route and just increase drop chances globally.

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If y'all really wanted to advocate for player choice in frame picking for looting to avoid the same 4 frame squad, you could've multiplied the dropchance for all the warframes at the same time that the stacking property was removed, which would've kept the farming abilities of a squad intact, and would give more choices of frames to people playing the game.

This smells of lies, but the change back to stacking of looting frames is a good temporary placebo.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Why do that? If that's the route they wanted to go, they'd just take the easier route and just increase drop chances globally.

Not quite! By doing what I suggested for every frame to have their own +loot mod for one ability, it means everyone must actively choose to sacrifice one Warframe mod slot for something entirely loot-centric. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that players have the option, with every frame, to slightly limit their build in exchanged for higher reward accessibility. 

Edited by LegendaryNeurotoxin

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Quote

This simply isn’t the case, but it’s the perception that matters. 

i'm glad this line is acknowledged.
as yeah, ultimately whatever plan there may have been, that's not how it turned out in the Game/to the Community. intention for concerningly taking advantage of things or not, the end result when the Construction is over, weighs more heavily on the Homeowner than what the Blueprint says.
so it sounds like we're on the same page, that's good.

 

 

anyways, i feel it's important to mention that the nerfing of l00t Abilities didn't have the 'intended' (or what is assumed to be the intended) effect anyways. it simply made the already less popular/effective l00t Abilities... less popular, and the already more popular/effective ones... more popular.

if you'd like to change something about these things in the future, i must implore keeping that in mind, as this fits into my boat of "anti-meta changes that just increase the 'meta' even more".
it... happens with some regularity in this game, and i really hope that it can be taken to heart that i am unsure if 'anti-meta' changes/decisions in the game has yet to ever actually make positive changes to the game in the end (but rather instead generally nerfing everything but the 'too good' things and forcing Players to use the 'too good' things even more because everything else is barred from use).
or in short, different, is not necessarily better.

  • Applause 2

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On 2019-09-30 at 11:59 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The third Mistake: not providing closure on the loot-frame changes from The Jovian Concord. We are restoring the loot mechanics to what they were before The Jovian Concord - Warframe Loot Abilities will again be able to yield multiple-drops from already looted corpses. 

I applaud to you for reverting this back and implementing it in a logical manner since not being able to loot corpse with Nekros after Khora on-kill loot or Ivara's Prowl made barely any sense and looked incredibly bad in combination with mods drop chance booster. So, thank you for reverting this back.

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would'nt have minded the change to loot if you guys just made the rare things a little less rare. so only one loot frame was like having 2

 

really enjoy the revert tho.

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46 minutes ago, LegendaryNeurotoxin said:

Not quite! By doing what I suggested for every frame to have their own +loot mod for one ability, it means everyone must actively choose to sacrifice one Warframe mod slot for something entirely loot-centric. I suppose what I'm suggesting is that players have the option, with every frame, to slightly limit their build in exchanged for higher reward accessibility. 

Then they would be back to square one with the "there's no choice" crying because everyone would feel compelled to run the loot augs all the time.

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COOL.

This is the first time i feel  the community has been heard in a while.

Pulling loot duplications was the worst thing, mods and mod boosters, I get the perception but I think it's fine.

My main concern was for resources regarding dojos.

Essentially when the nerf hit, that made all dojo tiers twice as costly.  As a competitive dojo builder that really sucks when they are already prohibitively costly for high detail and unique room builds that go to capacity for every room in your dojo that is at max rooms...

Let me explain the problem just in case anyone is listening:

The move from storm to mountain is one I did before, but reverted and cut players who were even pretty active because when you recruit players, generally, they need a lot of help and aren't able to farm for hours for dojo stuff as they aren't capable of the builds needed, and also have many other more pressing priorities like endo and basic mods and a few frames to tackle different challenges, learning trade well enough not to worry about slots, etc.

We have tackled this by creating a  30 Page manual to educate all new players up to endgame levels, and by doing regular giveaways to help players advance, but all of that costs time and energy that is also otherwise not spent on farming for dojo stuff.

Mountain tier specifically is the most challenging spot to be in.  mainly because players that want to be in a big clan want a moon to start.  players that want to have a small clan usually don't want more than storm.  Players that are capable of dojo farming are fewer when you recruit up a new level, which means basically you get hit with a stiff penalty at mountain in that you have the same 5-10 people that can farm and carry the rest of the clan, while also now increasing the number of people that need help from 100-up to 300 and that's a lot of weight with adding the additional cost increase, meaning, we had to make the decision to stay capped at storm until the dojo is entirely done, turning people away that would otherwise benefit a lot from playing with our clan so that we don't get burned out farming for dojo rooms.

As a clan leader I can say for certain it makes it disincentivized for us to move to mountain or moon until the dojo is effectively done, which means we are actively not growing the warframe community as we otherwise could on purpose, which is not in line with what DE should want (to grow the community for new players as much as possible for the sake of additional revenue opportunities).  The nerf to loot frames made this even worse.

Reverting it and adding the mod booster is A ok in my book.  it doesn't help much, basically it's an endo booster and occassionally maybe you might get an extra mod worth some plat while farming, but the chances are simply going from .5% to 1%, which is not a huge difference, but nice as a free sortie reward.

I honestly don't see these as big helps for anyone to invest in except maybe a newer player at first, and frankly, i think removing the credit booster is bad, because It's, on the whole, going to be more useful to literally everyone above mr 12 or so, and mr 0-6 goes by so fast it doesn't matter, and mr 6-12... I don't know, I don't know that you'd want to shorten the time players are at this level since it's the peak of the gameplay for them where content is still challenging since around about mr 12 or so things start getting dramatically easier over time since you should have your first optimal or semi optimal load out complete around this time that will stomp most challenges in the game to nothing.

 

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Posted (edited)

DE, Stuff like this is why I play and enjoy Warframe over any other looter shooter even after like 5 years even though some speed bumps like this occur once in a while. I don't think I'd expect anyone else in the entire industry to revert a nerf that hurt players, let alone be this transparent about the thought process that went into making a controversial change.

While this lootframe """"fix"""" should not have happened to begin with because it gave players a lot of war(frame) flashbacks to Viver, the fact that you all saw sense and undid it is worthy of some huge praise as far as I'm concerned just by virtue of the fact that I don't think any other company would have done this, they would have just said "It's to give you a sense of pride and accomplishment for getting Condition Overload" and left it at that. 

I'm also happy you went into detail about the thought process and precedent behind the controversial changes too and apologized. If more developers just did this and stuck to the notion of "Actions speak louder than words" instead of hiding behind empty PR sentiment, the industry would be in a much better place.

Edited by WMan22
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11 hours ago, ToaSirian said:

Great, now do the same with arbitrations. Please?

Do what?

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-10-01 at 3:59 PM, FrostDragoon said:

Ivara is one of the the few frames that's in a fantastic spot. As for frames being the "best" at something, that was always a bit subjective. I think Ivara is the best at Spy missions, but Loki has been a top choice for a long time, some players use Limbo, and there are some other decent choices too (Ash, Octavia, Wisp). Ivara can also cheese eidolons pretty well with the right augment and mod setup.

The thing that makes her an amazing frame isn't that she has to be the master of a particular category. It's that her kit is highly flexible to a lot of different scenarios and has strong self-synergy. Other frames that I would put in this category--the extremely well-designed and good frames--would be Wisp, Octavia, Volt (after his rework/update), Nova, and Rhino, just off the top of my head. There are plenty of frames that excel in certain categories, but these ones are all around just very good frames for most situations. In terms of "best design," I would even narrow it down to just Ivara, Wisp, and Octavia.

I was sort of alluding to that when I briefly was mentioning spy with her. Though I did maybe talk a little bit more at length with Ivara when I wanted to only just briefly scratch the surface (to be expected of me as all I ever do is think about Ivara).

Spy has a lot more leeway I feel in terms of which frame is categorized as "best" choice for it because it doesn't require a stealth frame to complete them at all. If I had to pick a best frame choice for spy, I would actually say Nova, simply because of her insane speed and potential for best time efficiency completion of spy vaults (granted, the player actually needs to have good reflexes in order to pilot Nova well enough to complete spy vaults in a quick manner). That's only looking at it from a pure time efficiency speed running perspective. But of course there is subjectivity as "best" can be measured in other parameters. Saying Ivara is the "best" spy frame simply because (with her augment) she trivializes any spy vault and it becomes hard to fail a spy vault with her (unless the player is spectacularly incapable) can be another fair measurement of saying she's the "best" for spy. I just don't consider it as important anymore because I feel the vaults are all easy as I've seen every single one of them and know them so well by now.

Eidolon huntress Ivara builds are complicated but genuinely interesting setups and I would say they're probably one of the last skill based type of DPS setups in the hunt. They require actual precision to hit a synovia with whatever weapon she's navigating. I wouldn't equate Ivara's eidolon hunting setups as "cheese", as they're complicated and sometimes difficult to use (more room for error) compared to other conventional DPS hunter setups. But Ivara eidolon huntress builds are cool and interesting builds nonetheless. 

Putting spy aside, yeah I agree that Ivara has a coherent design, a coherent theme and kit that has good synergy built into it. But for all of the amazing utility that Ivara's kit has, there's still a general public perception that Ivara is highly niche and finding use-case scenarios where Ivara's kit is worthwhile is few and far inbetween. Its a great kit that she has, but many still perceive Ivara's kit as only being useful for one thing, which is sad to see, but again I'd like to be wrong about this public perception. That, coupled with the other perception that there are better alternative frame choices to use over Ivara's kit most of the time. With all of Ivara's utility, we hardly ever see her out in public games (but that's also a different story as I'd like to hope the reason being that most Ivara players are just simply playing solo instead). But I think there might also be another side to this, as I think Warframe now is like a wide pool but with shallow depth. There's a lot of things to do in Warframe, but because of its shallow depth, you may not find many use-case scenarios in which Ivara's kit actually demonstrates itself as being very useful (back to niche thing).   

Though, I would also hazard a guess that if a player starts to actually look at picking a stealth frame to use, I'm guessing they only ever likely bother to invest into only one of them and leave the rest of the stealth frames as mastery fodder collecting dust in their arsenal. Because usually, one well invested stealth frame will usually be able to accomplish all jobs that is expected of the stealth frame to complete (whatever those tasks may be).

I wouldn't put Octavia in the same category, Octavia is just flat-out broken OP to me and can trivialize any content without trying much. Octavia is just broken and can't actually be challenged by any enemy in this game, or anything really, she's freaking untouchable. I feel with other stealth frames, the player actually has to put in some effort with other stealth frames to make them useful in a situation.

Anyways, I just hope Ivara gets some developer review before her prime gets here, some sort of QoL adjustments to her would be nice and to dispel public perception that she's only a one trick pony type of frame or extremely niche. Ivara is capable and useful as a frame, I just wish people would give her more of a chance.

Edited by BlindStalker

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1 minute ago, (PS4)ACiDiC_SiNz said:

I think he is referring to DE listening and working with player "feedback."

Feedback in terms of removing Revival Just to take chances away for other people for their own reason is a bit stupid, an opt-out toggle for revival on or off would be good so both sides are happy

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-09-30 at 3:59 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

The Mod Drop Booster has existed in Warframe’s Dev Build for 6 years. We originally had plans to release it with other Boosters, then Twitch Drops. As Prime Access continues, many players have requested more diversity in the Boosters added. We started planning the addition of bonus Boosters with Atlas Prime Access without changing the established pricing structure. The first bonus being a 7-Day Mod Drop Chance Booster - which double’s a killed enemy’s chance to drop a Mod. Its existence is in no way associated with Loot Frame abilities. 

What made y'all keep this concept on the back burner for 6 years, specifically? I know other things have been unrealized concepts for just as long, but I'm curious.

I don't hate it, but it doesn't seem like a good concept. Nor does it seem as valuable as the other boosters. Yes. That's a first-impression judgement without having used it.

Affinity, credit, resource, and resource drop chance boosters all directly (and measurably) affect my gameplay and don't directly affect the player/trading economy. Spending platinum on these to improve my gameplay values my (now more limited) time.

I don't think this new booster falls into that category.

Quote

The future of the Mod Booster will be decided as Atlas Prime Access comes to and end. 

Would it be possible to share the purchase stats once it's over? 

I'm wondering who will actually use it once it's live/how popular or unpopular it will be. Not that knowing that will tell us how useful the booster actually was.

Mixed feelings. I lean toward those that don't see much value in the new booster given the drop chance of the extremely rare mods. 

On the other hand, if I do get it in a sortie or from Baro and it works, I'll take it. Obtaining and selling items to those who haven't the time or patience is how I get all my plat. It's also part of how I lose my plat. I'm not interested in farming specters for Growing Power. Every time that task comes up in NW, I ignore it. This thread reminded me to finally buy it today. I haven't gone after extremely hard-to-get mods in a while. 

Overall, I feel like I can take it or leave it, but am glad the two issues were unlinked (nerf + new booster).

While I also really appreciate the loot 'frames being restored, I also don't see how this addresses the original problem (the niche meta), nor do I see how the new booster won't compound the problem (which the loot 'frame nerf tried to fix), albeit by a fraction.

The easiest solution still seems like either raising the drop chances globally or creating more ways to obtain certain mods by adding it to more drop tables/locations (something which has been done for other hard-to-get drops). If obtaining certain items far too easily (via a meta or with a booster with significantly higher drop chance boost than the one proposed) is frowned upon, then keeping the same drop chance but adding more locations would work.

@xMarvin732

I do not mind revives, but if it has to be opt-in, why not just use Instance Selection? One for revives, one for no-revives. That's already what DE uses when we go to a highly-populated relay, Cetus, Fortuna, or a node with multiple mission types occurring on one location (Fissure, Syndicate, Invasion, Nightmare, Regular, Sortie).

Edited by Rhekemi

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Theres only one and single mistake - its existence.

Well its a good thing tha this fall and next spring there will be no shortage of fps, looters and rpg games so yeah. You can add 5  more boosters if you want.

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