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Gurpgork

Warframes Being Underpowered on Release

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I would like to start out by saying that in general, the new design philosophy that the dev team has adopted with Warframe design is great. Having four coherent abilities that work together to reach a common goal is vastly superior to having one broken ability and three worthless ones like many of the old Warframes had. 

However, a consistent problem with new Warframe releases is that the majority of them have been underpowered on arrival. Whether they need number tweaks, are plagued with usability problems, or just flat out don't do enough, the bulk of the new Warframes have been lacking power. And this isn't really a new problem, either. Gauss is definitely the most recent example of this (it takes a ton of effort to get him to his peak strength, and then his peak isn't all that high), but this problem goes back at least as far as Atlas, and arguably even goes as far back as Oberon. 

Since and including Atlas, 11 of the last 17 Warframes have had this problem. If we go back to Oberon, then 17 of the last 25 Warframes have had this problem. Like, when was the last time you played a mission and saw someone playing Baruuk? What about Hildryn? Or Revenant? 

On some level, I understand why DE chooses to lowball the strength of new Warframes. It's bad to release a new god Warframe that pushes more power creep, and then having to nerf it later, much to the displeasure of the community. But I'd argue that the problem that comes with new Warframes being weak is worse: 

They are played for a couple weeks, and then basically forgotten about. 

This is a problem because the entire point of making new Warframes is so that people will play them. And if they're played for a few weeks and then shelved, then they have not successfully lived up to the purpose that they were created for in the first place. 

This wouldn't really be a problem if the new Warframes got appropriate buffs after their releases, but that doesn't always happen, which means that reworks need to happen down the line. And while this has been effective with Wukong and Nezha, it hasn't always worked out as well as it did for those two; Atlas and Titania have had reworks since their release and still have glaring problems in their kits. 

This is a problem I've been concerned about for a while now, and I'm especially concerned considering the upcoming release of Grendel. Grendel has a really unique and interesting concept, and he's getting an entire new animation skeleton. It would be a shame to have him hampered with weak abilities or unnecessary restrictions that lead to him being forgotten. 

I don't really want to see even more power creep, but I'd rather see another Saryn than another Zephyr. I'd rather have a little bit more power creep than an ever-growing pile of forgotten Warframes. 

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I haven’t tried Khora or Gara at Release but i did play Revenant at Release. His was probably worse than Gauss release. He had so many improvements to his Abilities since Release since he was under performing so badly when he was added to the Game. Gauss got only one Tweak for Team Play but the way his Abilities are, they are facing at the better direction than how Revenant’s Abilities did where they did the opposite at release. Honestly, most likely going to hate myself on this, Garuda had a not good release too. Her Play style wasn’t as bad but she was harder to play at release without other features like Staggers during cast and bigger Blood Alter range. Luckily, Pablo gave her the buffs she well deserved and the buffs that made her my favorite Frame. 

But the Warframes after her had lazier changes like Baruuk and Hildryn but when it came to Wisp, she received bigger changes than them. Of course there’s Gauss which received barely any. So far, the Warframes we gotten lately has been inconsistent for amount of changes each one got.

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9 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

a consistent problem with new Warframe releases is that the majority of them have been underpowered on arrival. Whether they need number tweaks, are plagued with usability problems, or just flat out don't do enough, the bulk of the new Warframes have been lacking power.

I imagine it would be very difficult to make the final compromise in stats when finalizing a frame for release. No matter how much internal testing DE managed to do, the number-crunching meta-machines are likely going to attempt to abuse the mechanics in one way or another. 

To compensate for an ability being over-powered on release, I think it would be a wise choice to start low and scale up - rather than start high and scale down; however, I doubt this is even the case.

It is more likely that testing concluded the numbers to be satisfactory and the frame was released - it is only coincidence that these new frames aren't as ruthlessly strong ("over-powered") as older frames (which cannot be tweaked or balanced out of fear of community back-lash...)

 

16 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

when was the last time you played a mission and saw someone playing Baruuk? What about Hildryn? Or Revenant?

Some frames have much higher difficulty curves, and depending on the style of game-play that you enjoy you lean closer to that corresponding style of frame. If you consistently play mindless missions you're more likely to see frames that don't require a lot of attention to play. However, frames like Baruuk or Garuda require focus and a strict game-play loop, yet, this does not make them bad frames, it makes them unique or niche. 

The purpose of developing your own palette is so that you can discover what you like and dislike; if you dislike complex frames such as Baruuk - it's likely that you're going to want to play a frame with an easier loop. 

 

24 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

the entire point of making new Warframes is so that people will play them. And if they're played for a few weeks and then shelved, then they have not successfully lived up to the purpose that they were created for in the first place.

Not everything is for everybody - warframes are individuals; they are vastly different from one another and are therefor going to attract different audiences. I like to think the beauty of having a growing roster of frames is that there is something for everyone. 

 

26 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

This wouldn't really be a problem if the new Warframes got appropriate buffs after their releases, but that doesn't always happen, which means that reworks need to happen down the line. And while this has been effective with Wukong and Nezha, it hasn't always worked out as well as it did for those two; Atlas and Titania have had reworks since their release and still have glaring problems in their kits. 

I fully agree that previous frames should be assessed and modernized when they become outdated. With all the new content being added to the game, it has become very clear how redundant or irrelevant specific abilities/weapons/etc have turned out to be. 

I support the idea of revisiting and touching up frames that need it - it should be a priority in many cases.

 

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At least I see some Hildryns in energy reduction sorties or energy leech nightmare missions, but that's very situational

She's not horrible though, but to only be able to use her 1 while in her 4 is too restrictive, I end up skipping it, and since her 3 isn't that good...

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2 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

I haven’t tried Khora or Gara at Release but i did play Revenant at Release. His was probably worse than Gauss release. He had so many improvements to his Abilities since Release since he was under performing so badly when he was added to the Game. Gauss got only one Tweak for Team Play but the way his Abilities are, they are facing at the better direction than how Revenant’s Abilities did where they did the opposite at release. Honestly, most likely going to hate myself on this, Garuda had a not good release too. Her Play style wasn’t as bad but she was harder to play at release without other features like Staggers during cast and bigger Blood Alter range. Luckily, Pablo gave her the buffs she well deserved and the buffs that made her my favorite Frame. 

But the Warframes after her had lazier changes like Baruuk and Hildryn but when it came to Wisp, she received bigger changes than them. Of course there’s Gauss which received barely any. So far, the Warframes we gotten lately has been inconsistent for amount of changes each one got.

To be fair, in Gauss's case, what DE would need to tweak are the players but last I checked there are some, how shall we say, ethical issues with kidnapping and reprogramming people.

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There's this frame called Octavia that blatantly broken powerful. Everyone knows it and yet everyone accepts it. There's also Nidus...

I actually hate newer frame designs. They all follow a theme instead of a purpose. Wisp plays like Wisp. No matter how you mod her; she will always play exactly the same. In fact most builds for recent frames vary little due to their design. Show me any Garuda, Gara or Wisp build. I bet there's 2 mod difference at most. It's boring.

Meanwhile I can still show you 3 very distinct Rhino builds, 3 Trinity builds, 3 Nova builds, 3 Ivara builds and before they destroyed them I could have showed you 4 Nyx builds and 3 Mirage builds. All very different in what they were good at, how / when you played them and with what other frames you played them with.

I'd be happy if bugs were simply fixed with new frames and not have to wait until a rework to hope they get fixed. Psh, Nyx still has 5 year old bugs.

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48 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

There's this frame called Octavia that blatantly broken powerful. Everyone knows it and yet everyone accepts it. There's also Nidus...

I actually hate newer frame designs. They all follow a theme instead of a purpose. Wisp plays like Wisp. No matter how you mod her; she will always play exactly the same. In fact most builds for recent frames vary little due to their design. Show me any Garuda, Gara or Wisp build. I bet there's 2 mod difference at most. It's boring.

Meanwhile I can still show you 3 very distinct Rhino builds, 3 Trinity builds, 3 Nova builds, 3 Ivara builds and before they destroyed them I could have showed you 4 Nyx builds and 3 Mirage builds. All very different in what they were good at, how / when you played them and with what other frames you played them with.

I'd be happy if bugs were simply fixed with new frames and not have to wait until a rework to hope they get fixed. Psh, Nyx still has 5 year old bugs.

 1 build for 1 frame, sometimes not even that good anyways = amazing game design. 

3 builds for 1 frame, all of them being stupidly strong = bad game design. 

The things we are vulnerable to see because of free speech. Tsc

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BTW.

Powerful in Warframe is almost entirely subjective because there's nothing but the player's own interests to compare with.

Take that last sentence as example:  " but I'd rather see another Saryn than another Zephyr. "

Spoiler

CqUIrex.jpg

Zephyr Solo....  Go ahead Saryn. Get on it.

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I'm fine with warframes releasing a little underpowered on release: from a pure PR perspective, it helps avoid giving the impression that the developers are trying to sell power creep, unlike so many other devs for games with continuous releases, and in general it's also easier on the playerbase to buff than to nerf. In this respect, I think the problem with many recent frames isn't that they release underpowered, but that there is often insufficient follow-up: in the case of significant failures like Khora or Revenant, the frame might get a massive buff or even a post-launch rework, but when the frame is just meh, like Hildryn, outside of bugfixes there's generally not much further work done.

In many cases, what I also think doesn't help is that these frames only rarely release with a distinct, useful niche: Wisp is by all rights a pretty decent frame, for example, but has failed to generate a lasting presence because she doesn't do any one thing especially well. Hildryn has this cool theme as a shield tank, but in practice her slightly derivative toolset just means you'll mostly bring her to low-level Exterminate missions for her 3, and avoid playing her against Infested or high-level Grineer. Gauss can sprint really fast, and that's cool, but donking into walls on most tilesets isn't really a niche. In many cases, what these frames actually need is a mini-rework, because their kit's kind of disappointing and sometimes even unhealthy or dysfunctional, yet that is not something DE is ready to dedicate all too many resources towards while working on the big ticket releases like Railjack, and then The New War, and then Duviri, and then...

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1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

and before they destroyed them I could have showed you 4 Nyx builds

I miss when psychic bolts did damage. I've still got the Itano Circus build on my Nyx Prime.

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4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

There's this frame called Octavia that blatantly broken powerful. Everyone knows it and yet everyone accepts it. There's also Nidus...

I actually hate newer frame designs. They all follow a theme instead of a purpose. Wisp plays like Wisp. No matter how you mod her; she will always play exactly the same. In fact most builds for recent frames vary little due to their design. Show me any Garuda, Gara or Wisp build. I bet there's 2 mod difference at most. It's boring.

Meanwhile I can still show you 3 very distinct Rhino builds, 3 Trinity builds, 3 Nova builds, 3 Ivara builds and before they destroyed them I could have showed you 4 Nyx builds and 3 Mirage builds. All very different in what they were good at, how / when you played them and with what other frames you played them with.

I'd be happy if bugs were simply fixed with new frames and not have to wait until a rework to hope they get fixed. Psh, Nyx still has 5 year old bugs.

As somebody that has 2 Ember primes because you can not put all builds in the same forma setup(with 10 forma on one allready) or a bullet attractor melee build(that is like 4 years old) for Mag to 1h survivals as only shield tanking melee frame(beside the 230% powerstrength polarize or 20 waves defence speed running builds vs infested/grenier) in the game I could not agree more.

Older frames all share the concept play as you like and change how your frame plays in the modding, where the power of the frame comes from the creativity and understanding of the frames mechanics by the player.

Newer frames in contrast are far less interesting in her design, they are basically unkillable in the hands of anybody but the most novice player(what already kills most potential to design actually interesting and engaging mechanics to keep you alive as a older player), they do not posses any mechanical complexity that would change the way they play and things like old Saryn that massively benifited from letting units bunch up in small groups to kill them with a weapon with punch trough that created a AOE gas bonuce mechanic(like the Arca Plasmor) are replaced by simply press the button and the game will do the rest for you.

When I did level Wukong Prime, Wisp, Gaus and Revenant the last week you could litterally do nothing wrong, even during leveling, what kills litterally any motivation for me to play around with mods and experiement with them at high levels, because I know that nothing will really change and you are playing exactly the same thing.

Also I can think of no frame but Titania that was underpowered at release during the last few years, they might not destroy hole maps full of enemy units by the press of the button but they will get all but the most novice players of the game throught L100 content without much issues, what is enught given that 95% of the player base will never play higher levels than that.

I actually did happen to watch a video about barruk yesterday, where 100% ranged damage immunity as 1 is not worth a nerf(it is stupid design, because you can not fail with that, even if you try), putting the hole map to sleep apearently not good enught, 90% damage immunity on your 3 build in for no reason at all(given that you can not take damage if you are immune to all by your 1 or 5s after pressing 2 you will never get shot) and the 4 ability does to little damage to call the frame sorti viable(what anybody with halve a clue could do easy with any melee released since 2013 and just his 2. ability). Why do people not protest against poor designs like that, where you as a player have litteraly no input over the outcome, because the frame basically does anything allready for you? You can not die, you can not fail, everything you do with the mods will have like close to no impact at all how the frame performs and all the extra visual UI additions to restraint are just set dressing, because it is not a resource(like rage or combo points in WoW is) or something that has to be on a specific point, only archived by actions the player does, it is just there as set dressing. The frame is super powerful, in the hands of even the most novice player, however it is a very boring and poor design form the perspective to get people actually involved in player "her" frame, the reason why you do not see a lot of people play it.

 

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Baruuk have several build actually. The easiest build and the one I like most is a full strenght and efficiency build while completely ignoring the rest.

Baruuk 3 scales with power but is better with low range, 2 profits of range and either low duration (to spam it) or long duration (to sleep your target for a long time) 4 profits solely off strenght and 1 need range and duration to cover 360° and stay up a long time.

Basically with Baruuk you always have to give up at least one stats if you want to minmax an ability. I use his 3 the most for the DR hence I built for strenght at the cost of duration (to bjild Rage with 2) and almost never cast 1.

TBH he's a rather interesting design.

 

I also disagree on your take on Wisp. I play with Wisp player pretty often and it's actually funny how much her build vary from player to players. Just check the size of the mote and the duration/strenght of the buff it gives you. You will see very tiny motes for player with full str/dur that gives you huge buff for a long time, you will see huge motes for player with range/strenght, you will notice some player that completely gave up duration and some that maxxed it...

And some don't even bother and just boost as much as they can her 4 to laser the entire map and use her 2 to move around.

 

Overall I like the recent addition. Sure not all frame can be as versatile as Volt or built with a huge variety of option, but isn't that fine ? I know I have at least two loadout on most of my frame for different reasons.

TBH I also wish DE would release new augment for the "newer" frames. Augment are something that can sometimes completely change a build or the purpose of a frame. See Nezha. One augment is there for better scaling against enemies (Reaping Chakram) while another is a pure teamwork addition : casting the ring on allies.

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On 2019-10-01 at 12:21 AM, GPrime96 said:

But the Warframes after her had lazier changes like Baruuk and Hildryn but when it came to Wisp, she received bigger changes than them. Of course there’s Gauss which received barely any. So far, the Warframes we gotten lately has been inconsistent for amount of changes each one got.

Atleast Gauss is still more than viable without his much needed fixes (just make the battery less annoying and restrictive DE come on). 
The fact that Baruuk’s 4 still remains a garbage exalted is baffling. It can’t be that hard to go in a change a few values.

Hildryn: is mediocre but she works. Mostly because Her whole shield thing works incredibly well.

Wisp: despite all the fixes to her, her 4 is still incredibly underpowered due to it’s ridiculous “1 damage tick a second”.

Revenant: all those changes and yet he didn’t really get any better.

Garuda: Pablo legit spoils us. We either get a bullet proof design like the Nezha rework from him or if there’s glaring issues with the frame he designed then he will make improvements where he can. I mean the man managed to nerf Saryn 3.0 without making her any weaker.

Edit: Also Pablo will actually put out a tweet telling us changes are coming soon.

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3 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wisp: despite all the fixes to her, her 4 is still incredibly underpowered due to it’s ridiculous “1 damage tick a second”.

Revenant: all those changes and yet he didn’t really get any better.

Garuda: Pablo legit spoils us. We either get a bullet proof design like the Nezha rework from him or if there’s glaring issues with the frame he designed then he will make improvements where he can. I mean the man managed to nerf Saryn 3.0 without making her any weaker.

What i always know about Wisp’s 4 is the slow damage wind up she needs, even when combined with her 3. Revenant got his Anti - Synergies and the most expensive 4th in the Game. But yeah Pablo knows how to make a Frame be a Powerhouse while having a couple things for the Squad or make a Frame that’s known to be bad and turn it into a Frame that’s more enjoyable at the start of a Rework. Nidus, Harrow, Garuda, Saryn’s, Wukong’s and Nezha’s rework was from him and look at the results for all of them.

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb Gurpgork:

Like, when was the last time you played a mission and saw someone playing [...] Hildryn? [...]

I see myself playing Hildryn nearly every mission ever since her release. In my opinnion the only not dull tanky frame in the game at the  moment.

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13 hours ago, Xzorn said:

There's this frame called Octavia that blatantly broken powerful. Everyone knows it and yet everyone accepts it. There's also Nidus...

I actually hate newer frame designs. They all follow a theme instead of a purpose. Wisp plays like Wisp. No matter how you mod her; she will always play exactly the same. In fact most builds for recent frames vary little due to their design. Show me any Garuda, Gara or Wisp build. I bet there's 2 mod difference at most. It's boring.

Meanwhile I can still show you 3 very distinct Rhino builds, 3 Trinity builds, 3 Nova builds, 3 Ivara builds and before they destroyed them I could have showed you 4 Nyx builds and 3 Mirage builds. All very different in what they were good at, how / when you played them and with what other frames you played them with.

I'd be happy if bugs were simply fixed with new frames and not have to wait until a rework to hope they get fixed. Psh, Nyx still has 5 year old bugs.

Intentional or not this can be framed as a negative for newer frame design. Of which I dislike. 

Older frames being able to focus on a single power and do amazing is literally what the recipe of "press x to win" is.

DE changed us from slotting in our powers in to having all 4 at once because they want us to use their toolkit. So the fact that newer frames double down on this concept makes total sense. 

Yes. You can mod the newer frames a few ways and they only play like said frame. But to say that means there is little to no build diversity is just false equivalence. 

I have a Garuda build that focuses on her loop of dunking her flesh ball the most effective way. And I also have an undying Garuda melee setup. Can I still dunk with her 4 in this build? Sure. But that's not the playstyle of my build. 

Frankly I think it's preposterous to claim that new frames designs are bad simply because you can still use other abilities to varring degrees.

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Frankly I think it's preposterous to claim that new frames designs are bad simply because you can still use other abilities to varring degrees.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions to my argument based on your own experience.

Your example of press-x-to-win is not something that has ever existed in the Warframe I played. It only existed in farm caves like Draco the community created because there's no challenging content. What did exist were group roles through specialization but that did not exclude other abilities from being used. If the ability is bad for your needs then it's bad regardless where as new frame design it doesn't matter if the ability is bad because you are being forced to use it in order to have full functionality.

It's the difference between actual Synergy and Dependency. Something DE has been quite clueless on. Synergy is subtle and generally lacks blatant numerical bonus effects. Dependency on the other hand requires one ability to gain a bonus for another ability and often neither are good on their own.

The difference is that you could choose to use all 4 abilities on a specific frame (if they were good) or strip down to 2-3 abilities for a group role where as you have no choice in new frame design. All builds are fairly generic and brain dead to mod since all abilities are dependent on each other.

Just because you choose to play something ineffectively by just not using a key ability doesn't make any reasonable argument that Garuda doesn't play the same either way. That's like me playing Loki and saying I can play him without using Invisibility = Diverse frame design. You can play a Rad Disarm Loki and make it work without Invisibility but why would you? The difference is if you play an Invisibility Loki then your Disarm suffers but the frame's overall performance for what you need doesn't. If you're playing Garuda without using her 4th then you're just playing half a Garuda.

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17 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

I would like to start out by saying that in general, the new design philosophy that the dev team has adopted with Warframe design is great. Having four coherent abilities that work together to reach a common goal is vastly superior to having one broken ability and three worthless ones like many of the old Warframes had. 

Stopped here to leave my upvote. Very true indeed

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16 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

So far, the Warframes we gotten lately has been inconsistent for amount of changes each one got.

And ultimately the entire point I'm making would be pretty much a non-issue if new Warframes consistently got the buffs they needed after release. 

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm fine with warframes releasing a little underpowered on release: from a pure PR perspective, it helps avoid giving the impression that the developers are trying to sell power creep, unlike so many other devs for games with continuous releases, and in general it's also easier on the playerbase to buff than to nerf. In this respect, I think the problem with many recent frames isn't that they release underpowered, but that there is often insufficient follow-up: in the case of significant failures like Khora or Revenant, the frame might get a massive buff or even a post-launch rework, but when the frame is just meh, like Hildryn, outside of bugfixes there's generally not much further work done.

There's definitely something to be said for the PR thing, and I understand that viewpoint. I just feel like it's resulting in too many Warframes that are just really meh and forgettable. 

But again, I'd be a lot more favor of the system if there was the sufficient followup. 

14 hours ago, Xzorn said:

There's this frame called Octavia that blatantly broken powerful. Everyone knows it and yet everyone accepts it. There's also Nidus...

I did not say that this problem was universal and absolute. Only that it has been a general pattern, and that the majority of Warframes since Atlas have had it. 

14 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I actually hate newer frame designs. They all follow a theme instead of a purpose. Wisp plays like Wisp. No matter how you mod her; she will always play exactly the same. In fact most builds for recent frames vary little due to their design. Show me any Garuda, Gara or Wisp build. I bet there's 2 mod difference at most. It's boring.

Meanwhile I can still show you 3 very distinct Rhino builds, 3 Trinity builds, 3 Nova builds, 3 Ivara builds and before they destroyed them I could have showed you 4 Nyx builds and 3 Mirage builds. All very different in what they were good at, how / when you played them and with what other frames you played them with.

I will concede that there was some give and take in the adjustment from the old philosophy to the new one, but the old system had some pretty serious problems. Maybe Trinity has more common builds than Wisp does, but the old philosophy very much boils down to "Do you use the one usable ability, or do you completely gut it and use the other usable ability?" And Trinity epitomizes this problem, because you either make Energy Vampire completely broken, which destroys Blessing, or you build for Blessing, which severely hampers Energy Vampire. 

Maybe what we have now leads to less interesting builds, but the old system, as Knight Raime said, lead to the boring "press x to win" gameplay. 

And the old system didn't even always lead to a wider variety of builds. Nekros spent a very long time as a 3 spammer before his first rework (one who doesn't even participate in the mission, mind you), Valkyr basically only ever built for duration and is largely unchanged in that to this day, Saryn had an iteration where she used nothing but Miasma with minimum duration, and Ash used to just press 4 to cutscene. 

Ivara is a Warframe I hold in extremely high regard. Ideally I'd want pretty much everything on Ivara's level in terms of having four good abilities with minimal overlap and really good build diversity. 

Btw of the 3 Nova builds you mentioned, at least 2 of them are still focused around Molecular Prime, but one has 145% strength and the other has 40%. I wouldn't exactly call that a win whether you look at it from either design philosophy. 

13 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

 1 build for 1 frame, sometimes not even that good anyways = amazing game design. 

3 builds for 1 frame, all of them being stupidly strong = bad game design. 

The things we are vulnerable to see because of free speech. Tsc

Well first of all this is a thread criticizing the newer Warframes for being underpowered. 

Also, power is not inherently indicative of good design. Energy Vampire is really powerful, but it's badly designed because it directly benefits from something that is supposed to be a detriment (negative duration). 

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oi.....

I'm pretty sure this is a joke, but I would like to make it clear that I'm not trying to attack anyone for liking any of the Warframes I cited as being too weak. 

Hell, I've even been playing a lot of Baruuk lately, even if I feel like he's a lot of tedium and resource management to basically be an Excalibur sidegrade.

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1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

I'm pretty sure this is a joke

It is, I was trying for playing off the humour with just the word and my Forum name ^^

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1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

I will concede that there was some give and take in the adjustment from the old philosophy to the new one, but the old system had some pretty serious problems. Maybe Trinity has more common builds than Wisp does, but the old philosophy very much boils down to "Do you use the one usable ability, or do you completely gut it and use the other usable ability?" And Trinity epitomizes this problem, because you either make Energy Vampire completely broken, which destroys Blessing, or you build for Blessing, which severely hampers Energy Vampire. 

 

It was never a frame design problem though. It was and still is a game design problem. At least fundamentally.

Saryn for instance has always been in a messy place even to this day but I still recall a pinnacle moment when she became worth nothing other than pressing 4. It was when they removed the immortality duration based Molt from her kit. She used to be able to cast multiple Molts, they were immortal, caused heavy aggro and were Duration based. This ability alone scaled forever. It was good no matter what. Outside that Spores sucked and Toxic Lash sucked regardless.

The point of Saryn in this case is that long ago Warframe became a game that rewards Quantity over Quality hence my previous remark of difficult content. Spamming 4 on Saryn did not work at all past a certain point in levels while her Molt always worked. Which was truly the better ability if we took out the rewards aspect of the game?

We can do the same thing with Ash. Staying invisible, esp with old Stealth multipliers scaled and still scales better than his Blade Storm but again players pick Quantity over Quality because that's what this game rewards.

Now CC is seen as unnecessary when it was once a key part in staying alive and providing value to a group. Does that not raise any red flags?

Because there's been no enemy progression in the game for 5 years it's become a simulator for smashing AoE Damage. Doesn't matter how they design a frame. That's the general goal. They haven't fixed anything with new frame design. They've just limited our options to help keep their flawed system going. Simulor. Nope! Too much AoE, Tonkor, Nope! Ember double Nope! yet all these things didn't work so well at higher levels.

TLTR: The game is broken; not so much the previous frame design format.

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Before we address the points, half the issues with the game and their new Warframes, their roles and purposes clashes or ends up falling rather flat or shallow enough is because of what Missions and their Rewards encourage. Anyone else noticed that Defense is a glorified exterminate with loss condition? Killing enemies fast makes it go fastest and not bringing stuff that makes sure every single attacking enemy die ASAP means you are slowing yourself down. These are looming factors specially in ESO and the "meta" for Damage being really good and CC & Healing losing value. Lots of mission types suffer from this and it's massive thing to address.

22 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

This wouldn't really be a problem if the new Warframes got appropriate buffs after their releases, but that doesn't always happen, which means that reworks need to happen down the line.

They don't need reworks then, just buffs, tweaks, adjustments and most importantly: fixes
 

22 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

Atlas and Titania have had reworks since their release and still have glaring problems in their kits.

It bothers me that people keep saying Warframes get "Reworked" when in reality they just get tweaked or a single ablity of theirs gets reworked. Titania didn't get a major or minor rework, she got a straight up Buff on Tribute, Lantern tweaks(?) and useless Razorfly healing RWing. Atlas could be considered as having received a rework on Petrify, no longer a channel and bonus features.

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Launching something weak and following with buffs is better than launching it broken and machine-gun nerf it. While the end result is overall the same, it's about how the playerbase perceives the changes, nerfs=backlash, buffs=satisfaction.

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It is, I was trying for playing off the humour with just the word and my Forum name ^^

Funny that I summoned you by mentioning Zephyr, but also mentioned Wukong and haven't summoned DeMonkey. 

Although jury's still out on that, I suppose. 

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

It was never a frame design problem though. It was and still is a game design problem. At least fundamentally.

You make some really excellent points, but we've sorta made a jump from "Gauss is kinda meh and so are the other new Warframes" to trying to fix all of the game's problems in this one little thread. So I'm going to address your points in more depth tomorrow.

13 minutes ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Before we address the points, half the issues with the game and their new Warframes, their roles and purposes clashes or ends up falling rather flat or shallow enough is because of what Missions and their Rewards encourage. Anyone else noticed that Defense is a glorified exterminate with loss condition? Killing enemies fast makes it go fastest and not bringing stuff that makes sure every single attacking enemy die ASAP means you are slowing yourself down. These are looming factors specially in ESO and the "meta" for Damage being really good and CC & Healing losing value. Lots of mission types suffer from this and it's massive thing to address.

Again, kinda getting into "fix the entire game" territory, so I don't really have the time or energy to fully address this tonight, but I'm glad you mentioned this. Something I've been noticing lately is that even in arbitrations and disruption missions--both of which actively discourage heavy ability use through ability immune enemies--Saryn is still pretty much ubiquitous. More so in Arbitrations than in disruption, but my point still stands. 

Now we can debate whether this happens because the game inherently encourages a high kill rate over anything else or if this is a problem with Saryn's balance specifically, but for now I'm going to cop out and say that there's a lot of both at play here. 

27 minutes ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

It bothers me that people keep saying Warframes get "Reworked" when in reality they just get tweaked or a single ablity of theirs gets reworked.

This is sorta just nitpicking semantics. The point is that DE looked at these Warframes, made some adjustments, and then still left them in a somewhat disappointing state with major problems with no ETA on further changes. 

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