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Lazarow

How you feel about a Power Level system?

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Posted (edited)

I feel why there is no endgame is because we cant know how much someone is capable of doing, so having a power level system based on warframe modding, weapon and modding(rivens included), companion, operator school nodes, all of that would determine the players power and say how capable they are. Now the main problem would be rivens and warframe diferances of power, as warframes and rivens are very different from eachother so lets say trinity would have about 50 and saryn like 80 because saryn has more power in dps. Rivens Im not sure how they will go but Im just asking and not making a concept cause thats too much work and Im sure a lot wouldnt like this so Id spend so much time for nothing.

I got this idea from some games, lets say Destiny 2 where there is a lot of gear and the devs know whats the maximum power a player can have and at what power level they put raids to be as the system is not as flexible as warframes system which has rivens and modding. 

If devs would know how much power a person has with their loadout then maybe they can know how high level enemies they can handle, kinda makes sence but as I said the system is so flexible and easily changable with rivens so it would be very difficult if they were to make this

okay so this is what Tsukinoki wrote which explains the situation, to my defense I was not there at the time of this chaos,

  2 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

players would feel like they had to build whatever would yield the highest points and all other mod/weapon combos would be shunned. 

This is exactly what happened.

People going for a single C rotation in T4 survival (basically 20 minutes in Mot) were demanding that everyone prove they have a 1200CP+ build in order to have an invite.
Running any form of duration run demanded that people meet a certain minimum before being considered, and if you didn't meet the requirement?  Good luck getting a group.

And even when people tried to not require a point amount it was hard getting a group together because "You aren't vetting CP?  This mission will just fail..." so it was hard even hosting a mission with that system in place if you didn't go along with it.

And it was ridiculous.
Especially since primed mods had the same points as non-primed mods.

  2 hours ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Now imagine if a mod like 'memeing strike" was the top point mod and suddenly everyone had to use it no matter if you hated spin to win or not just to be allowed into a group or even a clan.

This lead to massively garbage builds.
I mean Redirection was worth 40, Vitality 10, and Steel Fiber 40.  Flow on the other hand?  20.
So since you had to maximize on CP to get into a group did you fit in flow, or one of those mods?  Also how useful was Steel Fiber VS Vitality for the majority of frames?  And yet people seeking after CP to get into groups put in a redirection + Steel fiber because it was just more points in their build.

And that sort of situation was everywhere.  Some strong mods had low points, weak/situational mods had higher points...and this was before frames like Hildryn, Nidus or Inaros existed that would throw a further wrench into the mess.

And don't even get started on companions.
Kubrows were worth more points than sentinels, both for mods as well as their base values, meaning you could easily swing your build 200+ points by just swapping out what companion you brought into the mission and whether it had a weapon equipped or not (and even if you weren't going to have your sentinel equipped better give it a weapon with as many high CP mods as you can to artificially inflate your score!)

Edited by Lazarow
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I don't think there's a good way to measure one's skill in WF.

In some missions you don't even need to kill enemies (e.g., mobile defense, interception), so this whole power level thing would be useless in many places

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

I don't think there's a good way to measure one's skill in WF.

In some missions you don't even need to kill enemies (e.g., mobile defense, interception), so this whole power level thing would be useless in many places

A Power Level is how capable you are to kill, the skill does come from modding the warframe and mods which adds to power level, so in a way it is connected. But the power level is not connected to the tactical approach of the mission

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Posted (edited)

DE tried this.
It didn't work and was hilariously flawed due to one thing:
How do you score a mod?  After all its effects on power depend on what its put into....

But then the question comes down to builds.  Is a high power strength, high efficiency, low duration Zephyr stronger or weaker than a max duration, low range Zephyr?  Does health/shields/armor matter for a Zephyr outside of infested missions?  So how should they contribute to the power rating?
Same question about nova: Which is stronger a max power strength or minimum power strength? E.G. slowva vs speedva?
How should health/armor scale in power compared to duration and efficiency on an Assimilat Nyx?  What about a non-Assimilate Nyx?

DE tried conclave points.  It was useless, didn't do anything, and only caused massive toxicity because people could demand "1200+ CP ONLY!" when the mission they wanted was doable with sub 800 CP.
I could build a 1200+ cp zephyr build that is utterly useless, or I can build a sub 800 CP zephyr build that can solo 2+ hours in Mot.

Edited by Tsukinoki
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thankfully warframe has much more depth and is much more complex than a power level system could deal with

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Posted (edited)

Even if such a value could exist and be accurate it still wouldn't help accomplish anything.

The upper limit of what we're capable of killing is limited solely by one's own patience both for the time investment and tolerance for crashes (a number of record attempts have died due to the game not handling enemies and mission durations at such extremes). But also the ability to kill isn't always a valid stat; Spy, Capture, Mobile Defense, Sabotage, and Defection do not require you to kill a single enemy to complete them.

Or what about buffing and supporting frames? Many meta strats have revolved around using Rhino and Trinity who're only there for more damage end energy. Their ability to kill has little influence on how far a team can push a mission.

Edited by trst
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I agree with the above points but want to add that it would also destroy freedom of choice in builds. Players would feel like they had to build whatever would yield the highest points and all other mod/weapon combos would be shunned. If you think there is a "meta" problem now, this would end up making it so everyone used the exact same mod/weapon combos.

Now imagine if a mod like 'memeing strike" was the top point mod and suddenly everyone had to use it no matter if you hated spin to win or not just to be allowed into a group or even a clan.

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Feel like it would make this precedent that some content can be done with blank score cause Alot of "wtf are you doing here this is a ___ and above mission" and it just like a fissure on saturn. Also you included rivens which would lead to a misconception of them being absolutely necessary to increase you power score.

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Posted (edited)

Ugh... Destiny...

Are you really sure that game should be mentioned as an example?

Edited by JackHargreav
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The problem is you can never account for the human element. You can give 2 people an identical loadout send them into the same mission, and one will excel, while another will fall flat. It's one of the biggest issues with game balance, and I do not see it changing anytime soon. What would be difficult for one person maybe next to impossible for another. Do you balance around the 1% or around the majority?

You do not have to go far to see Venus Orb Vallis nerf threads, yet I was perfectly comfortable when it was released to endlessly farm roids alone for hours. That did not stop it from being nerfed to the point it bored me to death, but I understood the change, because everyone I took with me, ran out of revives. 

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So many MMO have gear score or item level. Not only those stats make unnecessary competition, the community are usually toxic. In those games every players are judging by others base on their "numbers", if you don't meet the requirement, you don't get to join the group. Everyone will be chasing the meta, leaving no room for creativity.

Warframe on the other hand is more relaxing, the player only need to do "enough" damage to pass the mission.This open up the freedom to play however you want. EX: A Loki might not deal as much damage as a Saryn, but it excel better at the Spy mission. There are many gameplay situations are immeasurable by number, and that is a good thing.

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1 hour ago, No1NParticular31 said:

players would feel like they had to build whatever would yield the highest points and all other mod/weapon combos would be shunned. 

This is exactly what happened.

People going for a single C rotation in T4 survival (basically 20 minutes in Mot) were demanding that everyone prove they have a 1200CP+ build in order to have an invite.
Running any form of duration run demanded that people meet a certain minimum before being considered, and if you didn't meet the requirement?  Good luck getting a group.

And even when people tried to not require a point amount it was hard getting a group together because "You aren't vetting CP?  This mission will just fail..." so it was hard even hosting a mission with that system in place if you didn't go along with it.

And it was ridiculous.
Especially since primed mods had the same points as non-primed mods.

1 hour ago, No1NParticular31 said:

Now imagine if a mod like 'memeing strike" was the top point mod and suddenly everyone had to use it no matter if you hated spin to win or not just to be allowed into a group or even a clan.

This lead to massively garbage builds.
I mean Redirection was worth 40, Vitality 10, and Steel Fiber 40.  Flow on the other hand?  20.
So since you had to maximize on CP to get into a group did you fit in flow, or one of those mods?  Also how useful was Steel Fiber VS Vitality for the majority of frames?  And yet people seeking after CP to get into groups put in a redirection + Steel fiber because it was just more points in their build.

And that sort of situation was everywhere.  Some strong mods had low points, weak/situational mods had higher points...and this was before frames like Hildryn, Nidus or Inaros existed that would throw a further wrench into the mess.

And don't even get started on companions.
Kubrows were worth more points than sentinels, both for mods as well as their base values, meaning you could easily swing your build 200+ points by just swapping out what companion you brought into the mission and whether it had a weapon equipped or not (and even if you weren't going to have your sentinel equipped better give it a weapon with as many high CP mods as you can to artificially inflate your score!)

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15 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

This is exactly what happened.

People going for a single C rotation in T4 survival (basically 20 minutes in Mot) were demanding that everyone prove they have a 1200CP+ build in order to have an invite.
Running any form of duration run demanded that people meet a certain minimum before being considered, and if you didn't meet the requirement?  Good luck getting a group.

And even when people tried to not require a point amount it was hard getting a group together because "You aren't vetting CP?  This mission will just fail..." so it was hard even hosting a mission with that system in place if you didn't go along with it.

And it was ridiculous.
Especially since primed mods had the same points as non-primed mods.

This lead to massively garbage builds.
I mean Redirection was worth 40, Vitality 10, and Steel Fiber 40.  Flow on the other hand?  20.
So since you had to maximize on CP to get into a group did you fit in flow, or one of those mods?  Also how useful was Steel Fiber VS Vitality for the majority of frames?  And yet people seeking after CP to get into groups put in a redirection + Steel fiber because it was just more points in their build.

And that sort of situation was everywhere.  Some strong mods had low points, weak/situational mods had higher points...and this was before frames like Hildryn, Nidus or Inaros existed that would throw a further wrench into the mess.

And don't even get started on companions.
Kubrows were worth more points than sentinels, both for mods as well as their base values, meaning you could easily swing your build 200+ points by just swapping out what companion you brought into the mission and whether it had a weapon equipped or not (and even if you weren't going to have your sentinel equipped better give it a weapon with as many high CP mods as you can to artificially inflate your score!)

Yeah that does sound bad. Glad I wasn't here for it.

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1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

This is exactly what happened.

People going for a single C rotation in T4 survival (basically 20 minutes in Mot) were demanding that everyone prove they have a 1200CP+ build in order to have an invite.
Running any form of duration run demanded that people meet a certain minimum before being considered, and if you didn't meet the requirement?  Good luck getting a group.

And even when people tried to not require a point amount it was hard getting a group together because "You aren't vetting CP?  This mission will just fail..." so it was hard even hosting a mission with that system in place if you didn't go along with it.

And it was ridiculous.
Especially since primed mods had the same points as non-primed mods.

This lead to massively garbage builds.
I mean Redirection was worth 40, Vitality 10, and Steel Fiber 40.  Flow on the other hand?  20.
So since you had to maximize on CP to get into a group did you fit in flow, or one of those mods?  Also how useful was Steel Fiber VS Vitality for the majority of frames?  And yet people seeking after CP to get into groups put in a redirection + Steel fiber because it was just more points in their build.

And that sort of situation was everywhere.  Some strong mods had low points, weak/situational mods had higher points...and this was before frames like Hildryn, Nidus or Inaros existed that would throw a further wrench into the mess.

And don't even get started on companions.
Kubrows were worth more points than sentinels, both for mods as well as their base values, meaning you could easily swing your build 200+ points by just swapping out what companion you brought into the mission and whether it had a weapon equipped or not (and even if you weren't going to have your sentinel equipped better give it a weapon with as many high CP mods as you can to artificially inflate your score!)

ok that sounds like hell, I mean we have the tridolon groups demanding 100+ captures and that is just too much, Ill edit my original post and add this thing you wrote here. Glad I was not there then, what on earth was I thinking even brining this up lmao

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The problem is that different mods have different value depending on the piece of equipment they are on. 

So you will never actually be able to make something like this even remotely relevant. 

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