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(PS4)Jedi_Arts_

One Move to make focus Schools instantly more competitive

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Step 1: Make Energizing Dash a Way-Bound node.

Done

If you could unbind this ability and use it with any School, there would be so much more reason to look into other schools. The fact is Energy Regeneration is so important in this game. That's why it was brought back in the previous focus rework. But much like Vacuum and Blink, player-usage dominating utilities shouldn't be tied down to one thing. But instead, they should be made available to all of the options. Otherwise, Zenurik will continue to dominate usage the same way Carrier and Itzal have in the past (granted, we haven't seen the implementation of Blink quite yet).

Though, to truly make Focus Schools fully competitive, another focus rework would be required, but that's an entire different discussion for an entirely different time. We have a lot of other things to figure out on this game before tackling that again. But if Energizing Dash was Way-Bound, I think that's just a good simple move that could pay off immediately (and no, without being OP or game breaking).

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Mordecai_Vrykul said:

Maybe they could make it an operator arcane so you could run it with other schools.

And contest with Vigor/Husk/repair/etc.? Thats a backstep of b.s. not even a temporary remedy. It could literally be dumbed down to the Itzal problem all over again. One particular school is just too useful at all times and the rest are stuck in insanely niche situations (Vazarin for share focus farming aka Hydron or just able to heal targets & instant rez, Unairu & Madurai mainly for Wisp & V.Strike for Eidolon speed running and Naramon for the usual Melee only focus farming or even affinity farming in some manner), Unless the entire focus school system as a whole gets rebalanced, then no way they can ever hope to balance it.

You could likely dig thru plenty of older posts on the topic to see some of the solutions that were posted but i will list 2 of them that i posted multiple times in said threads, which can basically be used together but it would still require plenty of skills to be redesigned, balanced and make each one have a strong defined role that actually provides great assistance in how existing gameplay works. So far that they might need to change the very definition of each school in the process. 

  • Custom Loadout- To nutshell it, basically has particular skills categorized into certain things (Dash Augments T1/T2, Blast Augments T1/T2, Passive `aura`, Passive T1/T2, etc.) where say after one has maxed out a particular skill they can equip them in a special loadout regardless of school, in a similar sense to waybounds except you are limited on how many can be equipped at a time for those non-waybound skills. Some restrictions that could be put in place is each skill being worth 50% more of its capacity instead of using it in its respectively pool for each of the skills assigned to the custom loadout. Still, they would need to redesign loads of skills to make each one stand out as much as Zenurik`s void blast, void blast & its bonus energy regen after picking up a energy orb to make such a thing work out better.
  • Situational but serve similar design- This is kind of in the opposite direction where each school will have skills that serve similar function but have different ways for them to operate. Such as every school would have a way to regenerate energy but in different ways. Unairu would let you regain energy as you take damage, Madurai would probably be dishing out damage thru a proc chance and Naramon could have you regain energy by killing enemies with melee, oh and Zenurik would probably instead of just giving a energy field on heal dashing it could proc a energy regen that recovers a fixed amount of energy and possibly when channel abilities are active it instead increases the efficiency of that channel ability to compensate for disabling energy regen. Just to list out a few idea that follow the existing design of the focus trees on how they work currently, still would likely need focus skills to work quite a bit differently to get this kind of style to work.

Anyway i hope that D.E. does not leave focus school reworks on the backburner since the planes of diviri, which i assume is the 2nd part of the empyrean update, after railjack, would have quite a major emphasis on operators and would likely need to do some functionality improvements. Especially if it turns into just like how we unlocked operator mode in the war within, we would get something of similar impact after completing the diviri paradox quest, which i assume is the quest for the planes.

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well than everyone would only use naramon since it`s the most op school if you forget about energysing dash.The only way this could work is if all the focus schools are thrown together and I cant see them doing that

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21 minutes ago, C104 said:

well than everyone would only use naramon since it`s the most op school if you forget about energysing dash

I highly doubt that Naramon would dominate to the extent that Zenurik has. It may be the new most-used school given this scenario, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Because I think there would be significantly more variation than in the Zenurik dominated status quo. Nothing in Naramon is nearly as essential as Energy Regen.

21 minutes ago, C104 said:

The only way this could work is if all the focus schools are thrown together and I cant see them doing that

Actually, I think the only way we could really achieve a well balanced focus system is with a good rework. And that won't be in the cards for quite some time probably. However, a solution like this could alleviate the immediate problem. That problem is that Energy Regeneration is something that Warframes need in general. And if a function like that is tied to a specific loadout choice, that choice will dominate usage.

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I'm hoping deathcube prime will survive long enough with his augment to play around with other schools.  Otherwise, yeah, no need to swap from zen except niche circumstances.  

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19 minutes ago, (NSW)Katsuro said:

or use arcane energize..

Except that's not really a solution for the Focus situation. And Arcane Energize is highly inconsistent, unlike Energizing Dash. And it's one of the rarest and most expensive Arcanes in the whole game. So it's not really an accessible option for most players. It can't really replace Energizing Dash they way you're implying.

I have Energize. I use it to supplement builds as needed. I like it just fine. But, this is off topic. We're talking about Focus right now.

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Vazarin and Unairu aren't competitive because they suck.

I use Naramon and on rare occasion Madurai.

Zenurik doesn't always win, esp at top end of gearing. Unairu was actually good for about 2 weeks then it was quickly nerfed. The Operator based effects for the schools are also simply bad. Naramon again being a better one with a Rad and Disarm. The Execute Dash was good. Then they added Stinging Thorn stance. Zenurik with it's pull which mostly Rhino enjoys but some value with Operator Arcanes as well and a quick Electric stun & Slow on Void Blast that works against most bosses.

At best Operator abilities are Utility based and Zenurik / Naramon still have the better Utility in spite of the Warframe based stuff.

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I have a different idea. Add a reasonable amount of base energy regeneration to all warframes. This way any source of additional energy regeneration is a buff rather than an enabler.

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I'm more in line with what Avienas said: give schools a means of energy regen with conditions related to the school. Energizing dash feels clunky to use, IMO, and it'd be much more fluid if each school had a "passive" / non-Operator way of regaining energy. Ability kills / damage for Zenurik, damage tanked for Unairu, melee kills / finishers for Naramon, healing (incl. shield recharging) for Vazarin, primary / secondary kills / damage for Madurai. Even if it's something like, at certain thresholds, the Warframe / Operator generates an energy-regen bubble like current Energizing Dash, and Energizing Dash becomes an efficiency booster instead. In theory, that shouldn't require retooling everything in the schools, so it could be Focus 3.1415926...

Giving every school Energizing Dash does technically work, but it feels pretty bandaid-y. If they're going to start making updates to Focus, I'd rather they start off with "proper" changes—even incremental ones—rather than stop-gap things.

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Seeing as each tree has it's own void mode, void dash, void blast, and warframe passive it would have been awesome if they allowed us to mix and match branches based on those four things.

Imagine, team invisibility from Unairu's void mode, healing from Vazarin's void dash, enemy slow from Zenurik's void blast, and longer melee combo from Naramon's passive. There are plenty of other cool combinations and it would serve as a reward for those who have progressed through all focus trees instead of just sticking to one.

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21 hours ago, Avienas said:

And contest with Vigor/Husk/repair/etc.? Thats a backstep of b.s. not even a temporary remedy. It could literally be dumbed down to the Itzal problem all over again. One particular school is just too useful at all times and the rest are stuck in insanely niche situations (Vazarin for share focus farming aka Hydron or just able to heal targets & instant rez, Unairu & Madurai mainly for Wisp & V.Strike for Eidolon speed running and Naramon for the usual Melee only focus farming or even affinity farming in some manner), Unless the entire focus school system as a whole gets rebalanced, then no way they can ever hope to balance it.

You could likely dig thru plenty of older posts on the topic to see some of the solutions that were posted but i will list 2 of them that i posted multiple times in said threads, which can basically be used together but it would still require plenty of skills to be redesigned, balanced and make each one have a strong defined role that actually provides great assistance in how existing gameplay works. So far that they might need to change the very definition of each school in the process. 

  • Custom Loadout- To nutshell it, basically has particular skills categorized into certain things (Dash Augments T1/T2, Blast Augments T1/T2, Passive `aura`, Passive T1/T2, etc.) where say after one has maxed out a particular skill they can equip them in a special loadout regardless of school, in a similar sense to waybounds except you are limited on how many can be equipped at a time for those non-waybound skills. Some restrictions that could be put in place is each skill being worth 50% more of its capacity instead of using it in its respectively pool for each of the skills assigned to the custom loadout. Still, they would need to redesign loads of skills to make each one stand out as much as Zenurik`s void blast, void blast & its bonus energy regen after picking up a energy orb to make such a thing work out better.
  • Situational but serve similar design- This is kind of in the opposite direction where each school will have skills that serve similar function but have different ways for them to operate. Such as every school would have a way to regenerate energy but in different ways. Unairu would let you regain energy as you take damage, Madurai would probably be dishing out damage thru a proc chance and Naramon could have you regain energy by killing enemies with melee, oh and Zenurik would probably instead of just giving a energy field on heal dashing it could proc a energy regen that recovers a fixed amount of energy and possibly when channel abilities are active it instead increases the efficiency of that channel ability to compensate for disabling energy regen. Just to list out a few idea that follow the existing design of the focus trees on how they work currently, still would likely need focus skills to work quite a bit differently to get this kind of style to work.

Anyway i hope that D.E. does not leave focus school reworks on the backburner since the planes of diviri, which i assume is the 2nd part of the empyrean update, after railjack, would have quite a major emphasis on operators and would likely need to do some functionality improvements. Especially if it turns into just like how we unlocked operator mode in the war within, we would get something of similar impact after completing the diviri paradox quest, which i assume is the quest for the planes.

I had not put a tonne of though into it tbh. But the custom loadout is definitely the best way to go from the sound of it.

 

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23 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Step 1: Make Energizing Dash a Way-Bound node.

Done

Why only Energizing Dash? It wouldn't make sense to do just the one.

If there was an update to the focus schools it would have to be made to all of them - making each of the nodes unbindable.

I suppose the argument could be made that your pool would balance out the strength of your operator (since you would have to vastly increase your pool to benefit from all of the nodes). 

Furthermore, it would give veteran players more reason to specialize into the other schools. 

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If anyone is wondering why I proposed this the way I did, it's because DE doesn't tend to make "tweaks" unless it's just a very low effort move to make. Anything more than a tweak usually falls into rework territory, and reworks are always a big production to make for them. Even just Warframe reworks take months to get into the agenda.

We can talk about which focus schools you think suck. But those are problems for a rework. And that is just not happening this year at all. Even the tweak I recommended would probably never happen, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss it. But even the Focus Schools that most people consider bad actually have some interesting niche case abilities that people might find useful if they didn't feel like they needed to use Zenurik all the time.

Energizing Dash is easily the most meta usage node in the whole system. And I want to make this clear, that doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Energy Regen is an essential function of running Warframes in this game, and the Energy Orb situation used to be a rather weak RNG based way to do that before focus came out. But if DE just let Energizing Dash be unbound, I think there would be some interesting shifts in usage to where there's a more even spread.

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

If anyone is wondering why I proposed this the way I did, it's because DE doesn't tend to make "tweaks" unless it's just a very low effort move to make. Anything more than a tweak usually falls into rework territory, and reworks are always a big production to make for them. Even just Warframe reworks take months to get into the agenda.

We can talk about which focus schools you think suck. But those are problems for a rework. And that is just not happening this year at all. Even the tweak I recommended would probably never happen, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss it. But even the Focus Schools that most people consider bad actually have some interesting niche case abilities that people might find useful if they didn't feel like they needed to use Zenurik all the time.

Energizing Dash is easily the most meta usage node in the whole system. And I want to make this clear, that doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. Energy Regen is an essential function of running Warframes in this game, and the Energy Orb situation used to be a rather weak RNG based way to do that before focus came out. But if DE just let Energizing Dash be unbound, I think there would be some interesting shifts in usage to where there's a more even spread.

 

Again, that is why i point out the Itzal shenigan all over again. Its not something they should low budget tweak or band-aid patch. Because it encompasses alot more then just tweaking a single ability on a warframe (*cough* Titania *cough*) which seemed rather easy for them to do in a hotfix for cripes sake. Plus at how a operator ability functions, they could easily create a new node by making use of a existing mod and have it apply to either the operator or warframe or even both, that could replace some of the garbage passive ones. Lets go over those details by the WEI:

  • To create a node that applies effects in specific ways they could make use of a node such as Unairu`s +60 armor to both the operator & warframe as the base, they would just need to blank out the applied effect and replace it with the effect as simple as a warframe mod but tweak the necessary values to apply to the appropriate values. If we got down to the most BARE MINIMUM of coding, it would be as simple as a math problem to setup the proper coding for the most basic of abilities.
  • Sure, they might need to debug it, but would it be that hard for them to recreate mod abilities like Rage & Exodia Brave, the latter which could have the proc effect changed to say a critical hit whether its the operator or warframe? Certainly would not be hard for them to take the useless damage reflector unairu operator effect and merge the physical & elemental damage boost effects into a 20 or even 30% overall damage bonus(but for cripes sake let it affect operator damage!) and then use the empty slots to give Madurai an energy regen of its own as a chance proc on crits which applies to either the warframe or the operator or even both? With the one being like Rage could apply in the newly opened Unairu slot, pretty much giving them energy they gain for what said focus schools are all about?

Its not a matter of tweaks or reworks, they could cover most of these small tweaks in a extremely short pace of time(if they just straight up worked on the stuff), no idea how long it would take for them to make sure it functions, since i have no idea how much test work they do, nor do i have any idea on what else they would need to cover, since i also have no idea what kind of code work they have on the game itself. But at the most simplistic level, it should be not that much different, then them changing the values of Titania`s abilities which honestly was just them replacing the values of tribute`s range, duration & etc. on various effects with a completely different digits, as simple as backspacing and typing in a new digit and saving the work.

Overall: They should just honestly just have each school get a specific type of way to regen energy.

  • Unairu- Rage Mod duplicate with probably a better gain rate.
  • Madurai- Chance to recover energy on critical hits, probably slighty low proc chance or low gain value that can stack with multiple procs on crits.
  • Naramon- Something unique maybe such as getting a energy regen that scales on combo counter and probably give a big boost of energy as you go up each tier.
  • Vazarin- Never got around to any good ideas for vazarin honestly, maybe have a energy regen that is active while at full health and persists a few seconds after your health dips below 100%, maybe have higher ranks have a lower health threshold to allow the regen?

Though it would be NICE if they enhanced the base energy one starts with in missions and after reviving from death, so that could be something they could address in some way too maybe.

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On 2019-10-01 at 4:00 PM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

I highly doubt that Naramon would dominate to the extent that Zenurik has. It may be the new most-used school given this scenario, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Because I think there would be significantly more variation than in the Zenurik dominated status quo. Nothing in Naramon is nearly as essential as Energy Regen.

I'm already op af.  if you put ed on waybound, this is my first move.  I can already out dps saryn in eso with my melee.  do you really want EVEN MORE POWER CREEP?

Good god no.  Not until they give us some content to use what we have.

As it is we're already all dressed up with nowhere to go.  If that's not you, then you have other things to worry about first besides trying to change the game.

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15 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm already op af.  if you put ed on waybound, this is my first move.  I can already out dps saryn in eso with my melee.  do you really want EVEN MORE POWER CREEP?

Oh yes, we are at the point where we don't have to worrying about power creep anymore because there is no balance at all...

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9 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Oh yes, we are at the point where we don't have to worrying about power creep anymore because there is no balance at all...

if you're not, then you need to gring more and up your arsenal. or is the game too hard?  if so... well... lot easier than when i came up, and it was easy then.

to be clear, the game is not hard at all, it's grindy... because it's free.  if you don't want to grind, pay some money and skip the grind.  if you can't pay money, then go grind and enjoy your free game.

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