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844448

What will you do if the new balance model doesn't allow one hit kill?

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With railjack, it's said that new balancing system will be made on it because the current balance is "broken".

If the new balance turns out not allowing you to one button nuke and no more chroma, to the point of not being able to one hit kill with snipers unless it's a hit on weak spot, will you accept it or go back to old balance system?

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39 minutes ago, 844448 said:

will you accept it

I'll happily accept any attempt to fix the game.

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I hope they will balance the game so the fights last a bit.

But also i want weapons like shotguns and snipers to stay one shot weapons. Those are usually slow weapons and shotguns are limited by short range anyways. Snipers already a pain to use in close combat.

Bows I'm not sure about. It would be nice if they would be oneshot-ish.

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I'm not sure that the loud part of the community actually realizes how small the amount of people living off cheese actually is. The noise and the continued uneducated opinion recycling really over-exaggerates it.
Zephyr: Melee only.

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10 hours ago, 844448 said:

With railjack, it's said that new balancing system will be made on it because the current balance is "broken".

If the new balance turns out not allowing you to one button nuke and no more chroma, to the point of not being able to one hit kill with snipers unless it's a hit on weak spot, will you accept it or go back to old balance system?

wow when/where did they say this?

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Not really care.

Ohko's have their place (usually in some form of ult or execution or something) but if they're entirely impossible it'll honestly be no big loss, except maybe for sniper rifles or some melee weapons.

TBH, one-shots are just one facet of the issue. It's more easy-access AoE that's the big DPS issue (since instant-killing a single part of a horde is... honestly not that significant), and wide-range CC and the Immortality/invisibility routes to never dying are more problematic.

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I'm hoping it does just that. CC will become significant again--or so one hopes. 

I already almost exclusively use autotrigger guns, so I'm used to shooting something until it folds. 

On the other hand, we don't really want bullet sponges. Those simply get tedious. It's a fine line. 

I'm not worried about it. We'll see what happens and adjust accordingly. 

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Posted (edited)

I feel like you're overestimating what's going to actually happen here. They said they'd try out a different balance model for the railjacks themselves to see if any ideas could be back-ported to the rest of the game if they work out. They probably won't, because of how utterly drastically they'd need to rework literally every number in the game to do so, it's just something that sounds nice to say they're looking at.

The first tweet where Steve talked about this he also expressed that he somehow thought what was clearly the problem with player modding was letting people stack the same stat. Rather then the actual apparent problem of how violently all of the DIFFERENT stats multiply each other.

warframe's core model of modding for guns is inherently exponential, and the gap between optimized and unoptimized guns is easily by factors of ten if not significantly more. And unlike a typical MMO with like, item level escalator balancing versus higher level content (which I don't like either, mind you!), everyone in warframe ends up running the same content, god-like or amateur gear. There's just fundamentally no way of balancing the numbers for this. It's why operators/eidolons were designed around completely eschewing as much of the actual game as possible to make a "balanced" sandbox of only the operator crap for an "end-game" boss. Though that didn't work too well either because it turned out they botched operator balance for the scenario pretty badly, too. This is an irrelevant tangent, though.

Edited by OvisCaedo
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23 hours ago, 844448 said:

With railjack, it's said that new balancing system will be made on it because the current balance is "broken".

If the new balance turns out not allowing you to one button nuke and no more chroma, to the point of not being able to one hit kill with snipers unless it's a hit on weak spot, will you accept it or go back to old balance system?

Anything to make me consider playing for more than 5 mins at a time is welcome. To be truthful I would like some challenge along the lines of a new game doing rounds in the WF community. 

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Does my gun have two bullets loaded?  Yes?  Well, no need to be so stingy with my ammo then.

As for exceotions, I'd say the entire Sniper category (Slow, awkward, or both, should reward skilled play), Shotguns (Requires closing the gap.  High risk high reward), and Melee (See: Shotguns).

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On 2019-10-02 at 4:15 AM, JackHargreav said:

But also i want weapons like shotguns and snipers to stay one shot weapons. Those are usually slow weapons and shotguns are limited by short range anyways. Snipers already a pain to use in close combat.

I just shove my sniper barrel up someone and fire. Works every time.

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23 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Not really care.

Ohko's have their place (usually in some form of ult or execution or something) but if they're entirely impossible it'll honestly be no big loss, except maybe for sniper rifles or some melee weapons.

TBH, one-shots are just one facet of the issue. It's more easy-access AoE that's the big DPS issue (since instant-killing a single part of a horde is... honestly not that significant), and wide-range CC and the Immortality/invisibility routes to never dying are more problematic.

To be fair, the major issue with Invis isn't really a problem with Invis itself. It's mainly the fact that Covert Lethality Daggers exploit it to a ridiculous degree, which results in cheese. The only Invis ability that is problematic is Ivara's Prowl, since the downside is not enough to balance out the tremendous advantages Prowl gets, especially with the Augment.

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I need my Zarr. 

If they fix it to where I can't one shot even level 1 Infested, then I'm not even going to put in research for my Railjack. 

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7 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

To be fair, the major issue with Invis isn't really a problem with Invis itself. It's mainly the fact that Covert Lethality Daggers exploit it to a ridiculous degree, which results in cheese. The only Invis ability that is problematic is Ivara's Prowl, since the downside is not enough to balance out the tremendous advantages Prowl gets, especially with the Augment.

no, the major issue with invisibility is that most enemies have zero capacity to respond to it at all, and will not even attempt to fight back. Covert lethality daggers are a pretty good answer to continuing to deal damage to things endlessly (though there's also no actual point to do so), but in many scenarios invisibility may as well be invincibility. You're only gonna get hit by AOEs that were aimed at other people most of the time.

also if you think ivara's invisibility is broken just wait until you find out what octavia does.

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Posted (edited)

it's far less important that __ Kills something on first contact, and more important that a Spike Damage Weapon deals significantly more Damage than something more akin to an Assault Rifle. more than the delta in Fire Rate.

but, can we be more specific, rather than buzzwordy? the widest issues that we have is that across most of the game, essentially any Weapon 'oneshots' or something close to it. 

 

but even then, i care less about the TTK on a particular Enemy and more about the scope of my interaction with those Enemies. is 90-95% of Enemies still going to be useless garbage like yet-another-Lancer[30]? if so, literally nothing will ever be any different, because the Enemies exist to be useless and uninteresting, and so therefore, they are useless and uninteresting.
if the game doesn't present Enemies that do more than exist to get in your way and soak up one bullet, nothing will ever change. increasing the EHP of Enemies by 20fold or 50fold would make Enemies seem ""harder"" in that you'd need higher Stats to Kill them without dying, but that won't make the Enemies a single drop more interesting to fight.

Edited by taiiat
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2 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

no, the major issue with invisibility is that most enemies have zero capacity to respond to it at all, and will not even attempt to fight back. Covert lethality daggers are a pretty good answer to continuing to deal damage to things endlessly (though there's also no actual point to do so), but in many scenarios invisibility may as well be invincibility. You're only gonna get hit by AOEs that were aimed at other people most of the time.

also if you think ivara's invisibility is broken just wait until you find out what octavia does.

Yes, but where the actual enemies can't respond to it, stage hazards can. Grineer Sensor Doors, Corpus Laser walls, ect. Thats why Ivara's is busted. With the Augement, she can bypass sensors, while the other two, Ash and Loki, cannot. I'm not sure if Octavia's Nocturne buff can bypass sensor doors, but she's so loud that I doubt she could get even one cast of Metronome off and build up the Nocturne buff before she's already getting pelted.

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3 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Yes, but where the actual enemies can't respond to it, stage hazards can. Grineer Sensor Doors, Corpus Laser walls, ect. Thats why Ivara's is busted. With the Augement, she can bypass sensors, while the other two, Ash and Loki, cannot. I'm not sure if Octavia's Nocturne buff can bypass sensor doors, but she's so loud that I doubt she could get even one cast of Metronome off and build up the Nocturne buff before she's already getting pelted.

Bypassing sensors is almost completely irrelevant in everything outside of spy. They are just not a relevant "threat" in anything else. Magnetic doors are annoying, but if you're paying attention you can just break them, and they'll stay broken for the rest of the mission. Amusingly, ivara is uniquely threatened by one stage hazard nobody else cares about, shock mines that rapidly drain her energy in prowl. But, yes, sure, Ivara with augment completely trivializes almost all spy missions. Spy missions are already trivial as pretty much any frame for more experienced players, but she certainly takes less effort and is a good crutch for people who don't know the layouts.

but invisibility is a much bigger balance issue than just spy missions, because it's near-invulnerability in almost all actual combat content. It's also a massive damage boost for melee weapons (though with restrictions; generally only the first hit on an enemy every 4-ish seconds or so.) Ivara's got a good thing going for her with the lack of need to refresh invisibility even briefly, like Loki does, but still has quite a few downsides tacked on. And Octavia then gets permanent invisibility with no downtime, no movement restrictions, no breaking on gunfire, and no disabling of energy regeneration. Takes a modicrum of effort to crouch a few times every thirty seconds or so, but is complete safety with no risk.

it's one of those things that's pretty much just broken even outside of the usual game balance issues of the completely unreasonable numbers on both sides.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

I'm not sure if Octavia's Nocturne buff can bypass sensor doors, but she's so loud that I doubt she could get even one cast of Metronome off and build up the Nocturne buff before she's already getting pelted.

You are incorrect. Octavia's metronome doesn't alert enemy units. Octavia can constantly re-cast metronome as many times as she wants and can keep her nocturne invisibility buff going indefinitely, so long as you remember to crouch spam. Only players can hear the metronome melody, its coded as being silent to guards.

Video proof - I activate metronome multiple times around these grineer guards, they're completely clueless to my pressence and can't even hear me. They remain in their unalerted state (hollow red triangle on enemy radar map shows they are unalerted). I can remain invisible forever with with Octavia just by filling her energy pool up with zenurik dash or energy restores (unlike Ivara's channeled prowl which can't use those energy sources and prowl must be deactivated in order to refill Ivara's energy pool).

Also, this information is listed on the Warframe wiki:

UhKzOT9.png

Also, Octavia is just busted op. She's untouchable once you've got a min-maxed song working with her.

Case and point, Summit's video of when he ran the Ambulas event solo for a 16 hour long interception game (Regular enemies hit the level cap of 9,999 but the Ambulas boss itself was at level 427 in his video and it still gets wrecked by Octavia. And because its a Moa type enemy, you can't use Covert Lethality on Ambulas. Octavia wiped the floor with that boss like it was another trash unit enemy).

Octavia can of course, trivialize other game modes too.

Xzorn's Octavia video where he reaches level 1,300 on Mot Survival. I think Xzorn only left at that point because he got bored. I think she can theoretically hit level 9,999 cap too. Or at least noted in Xzorn's video description. @Xzorn Also, Xzorn, if you feel I present your video out of context then I apologize. But I feel like you did prove the point that Octavia is just straight up capable of breaking whatever "balance" that Warframe supposedly had. Do feel free to correct me though.

Oh and here is somebody's defense run with Octavia going up to wave 85 solo again on Akkad defence. I mean honestly I would've expected that kind of run with an actual team, but who needs a team when Octavia can do everything. (Though to be fair, I feel like the infested are terribly incapable as an enemy faction and barely pose much of a threat, so it really took while before they started doing some actual damage to the defense pod). 

Seriously, Octavia is like the ultimate invisibility frame in Warframe's current game. She has no downsides as far as I can tell.

6 hours ago, Kerberos-3 said:

Thats why Ivara's is busted. With the Augement, she can bypass sensors, while the other two, Ash and Loki, cannot.

You think Ivara's Infiltrate augment is amazing?

Spy vaults are trivial at best and lasers don't pose much of an obstacle at all. Plus there are many frames that can bypass lasers without having to rely on an augment. Also all spy vaults are designed with a route which allows you to get to the vault console without being seen. Spy is designed in way where invisibility isn't a requirement to completion, they can be completed with any frame. 

Wukong - his cloudwalker has Infiltrate innately built into his kit, plus he moves so fast while in cloudwalker that he can zip through an entire vault with his eyes closed. (Video as example)

 

Limbo - can just dodge roll into the rift and then he can bypass lasers. You can also use his cataclysm to destroy corpus cameras. Can also pair Limbo with a Huras kubrow and viola, you've got mobile invisibility. I think there is also maybe an advanced technique where Limbo players activates his 2 to freeze enemies in rift and then uses 1 to banish grineer sentry camera drones as another way to bypass those grineer drones (but don't quote me on this because I don't play Limbo often enough to know about his more refined complex mechanics). In any case the Huras Kubrow can still make you invisible to sentry drones if need be.

 

Loki - can use his decoy and switch teleport to bypass lasers. Now, I will acknowledge that during my quick video tests on Corpus Oceanum spy, I noticed that one of the spy vaults (the U turn one) wouldn't let me deploy the decoy properly on the other side of the lasers (it ironically kept forcing me to place in the laser field). I get the feeling that's a level geometry bug, so you might encounter this issue while using this technique with Loki on some vaults (I'm sorry I'm not going to be testing all vaults with Loki and I'm only showing "proof of concept" that his decoy and switch teleport abilities can be used in a way to bypass lasers).

Wisp - Wil-O-Wisp. Sorry I haven't played her but her Wil-O-Wisp can also be used to bypass those lasers to by teleporting towards wherever the specter stopped.

Nova - and of course, the Queen of Spy herself Nova. Because wormholes just don't care about laser fields at all. Note, Nova is used by highly advanced speed runner players so they're pretty much blitzing right through. But yeah, for Nova speedrunners, what lasers? (I was sort of just blindly looking for a Nova speed runner's video. They get clean runs on Vault 1 and 3, but they still demonstrate that Nova's Wormhole portals can bypass lasers).

There's probably also Nezha as well (I imagine you can use his Blazing Chakram to also bypass lasers because you can instantly teleport to wherever you throw his ring, but I'm not going to go look for a video).

@Kerberos-3 I listed Wukong, Limbo, Loki, Wisp, Nova, Nezha as all having abilities that can bypass laser fields, built innately into their kits. Heck, there probably is a few more frames that I can't think of right at the moment that can bypass lasers as well. Wukong's cloudwalker is probably the easiest alternative to Ivara's infiltrate because its even an invisibility ability too (plus it moves insanely fast to boot as well. So you can speed rush those vaults as well). Also, unlike the other frames, Ivara doesn't have laser bypassing built innately into her kit, she's the only frame who relies on an augment to even be able to do that (in some ways I think its like a handicap at times. In some ways, I also think it was an "after-thought" design to Ivara when DE realized that she might struggle with some spy puzzles without said augment). Do you still think Ivara's infiltrate augment is amazing given all of other alternative choices in Warframe?

Also, to further point out how low the difficulty of spy really is. No offence intended to this player, but their video demonstrates why I think Spy is far too forgiving. They basically rush through the lasers on vault 1 and 2 setting off lasers and alarms and then they properly do vault 3 without tripping lasers. This bypasses the consequence of the spy mission turning into an exterminate afterwards if you trip the alarms on all 3 vaults but still steal the data in time (not that turning the spy mission into an exterminate afterwards is a real consequence by any stretch of the imagination. It just adds extra time to the mission). You can basically bum-rush spy if need be. Spy is a joke for difficulty. 

 

Sure, Ivara + dagger + CL on a survival endurance run has its own merit and is a form of "OP" strong. But there are other frames who can reach level 9,999 cap of enemies too (Octavia as stated above), and I think maybe Revenant too? I don't really know how Revenant works, but I vaguely recall somebody posting an endless survival run with Revenant reaching level cap 9,999. But I could be wrong about him. I don't claim to know everything in Warframe, but I hear about some things here and there.

Plus CL mod is not exclusive to Ivara, any frame that can open enemies up to finishers can make use of CL mod (like Ash + Fatal teleport augment + CL dagger, cheap easy way to OHKO enemies too). Actually, you don't even need the frame to be able to open enemies up to finisher animation. Stinging Thorn (a dagger stance mod) has a melee combo which automatically forces enemies open towards frontal finishers and so you already do CL+Dagger OHKO with any frame. Though I suppose you could also use gas clouds to open enemies up to finishers as another alternative approach (can't find a video, but this one shows Stinging Thorn in action).

Also the other thing about CL+dagger, its really considered a very slow way to kill things and only starts to become relevant when you reach ridiculously high levels of enemies. Most people just opt for using other weapons in general because they're much faster at killing mass amounts of trash units than CL+Dagger and most of the time we're fighting low level units. Its not common for the average player to go up to high levels of enemies I imagine. Heck, it might be true that for the average player, the highest levels they ever see on average is sortie tier 3 level enemies at best (so level 100s). There's also probably bunch of other things I'm glossing over too, that I'm not aware of or unfamiliar with.

I guess the larger point at hand is this. Warframe has balance? Is that a joke?

Edited by BlindStalker
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Posted (edited)
On 2019-10-03 at 2:26 AM, OvisCaedo said:

The first tweet where Steve talked about this he also expressed that he somehow thought what was clearly the problem with player modding was letting people stack the same stat. Rather then the actual apparent problem of how violently all of the DIFFERENT stats multiply each other.

This is at least the case for ability modding which is the other half of the balance problem in this game. The introduction of Corrupted, then Drift, then Augur mods really only meant that instead of 3 slots used for ability mods, it was 5 slots, then 6, then 8, also creating the side effect of people claiming that there are not enough slots. This allowance on the upper ceiling of abilities meant that whenever they balanced an ability at the base line of 100%, it could be built to 250% where it would potentially break the difficulty of the game with enemies being incapacitated beyond combat range or buffs that have ridiculous effects while lasting for more than enough time to feed more energy back into itself.

It's two different areas of balance. This is more about the balance of gameplay interaction to effect where, more often than not, objectives can be completed by repeatedly pressing a single button without a single shot being fired. Multishot and damage is the balance with scaling, where enemies don't scale to our exponential jump between damage and multishot. They definitely should address this issue, else if the game shifts away from exponential damage increase, we would just see more rise to stacking large amounts of damage on a high range ability to kill 10 enemies with 4 button presses instead of firing 20 shots.

Edited by RX-3DR

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From what I've heard they're working with scaling with Railjack. aka a module. aka not Warframe.

Are we really entertaining the idea that DE is going to rework the Damage system which includes scaling, damage modifiers, weak points, enemy damage scaling, double dips, status effects, modding, buff interactions, health types, armor and more? C'mon. They've been stalled on Melee 3.0 for a year now and that's not half as complex.

 

2 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Xzorn's Octavia video where he reaches level 1,300 on Mot Survival. I think Xzorn only left at that point because he got bored. I think she can theoretically hit level 9,999 cap too. Or at least noted in Xzorn's video description. @Xzorn Also, Xzorn, if you feel I present your video out of context then I apologize. But I feel like you did prove the point that Octavia is just straight up capable of breaking whatever "balance" that Warframe supposedly had. Do feel free to correct me though.

Nah, I mean I called her Bored Frame in the video description. It was the most boring run I've ever done.

I worked the math and then tried it out long as I could bare. A lvl 9,999 Bombard kills itself in one hit after multipliers with a Viral proc up from Zenistar. The armor gets stripped with one or two throws from Pox given a Multishot Riven and her innate Multishot bonus so it's gone in a second or two.

Nothing in a well designed game should be doing X damage. By that I mean an ever scaling variable. It removes any need for gear or progress at that point. I also dislike CL based on the same reason. When you only need one mod on a weapon to kill level cap enemies there's nowhere to go after that.

That's likely why DE doesn't bother to go anywhere with the game. It's technically already over in terms of scaling and difficulty. We can level cap numerous ways.

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