Pizzarugi Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said: Git gud boi. Or switch to Destiny 2. And so we've reached the inevitable conclusion where arguments boil down to nonsense, because you have no way of actually defending why your walking "I win!" button doesn't need to be nerfed. At least Destiny 2 is more balanced, which is more than I can say for this game. 😛 Edited October 18, 2019 by Pizzarugi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: Everything you disagree with is "griefing", "abusive" etc. " or "trolling" or "whiteknighting". as you said elsewhere. Ok, let me just add a few more sensational words to your list. But this is clearly a straw man, as I only point to such abusive behavior when the person in question is actively attacking other posters while blanket-denying obvious issues with the game, i.e. the definition of white-knighting. Not a single one of your replies here has attempted to deepen discussion, so much as obfuscate it and pick fights with everyone who's emitted a contrary opinion from yours. In this respect your accusation here comes across more as an attempt at projection and blame shifting than anything else. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: And now I will repeat myself and address your "creative" way of trying to make a playstyle sound as horrible as you can. If radial nuking is such a "griefing" behavior. Explain why people recruit for radial nukers for Hydron and ESO? I should not be seeing anyone ask for Saryn or similar at all. But why is it asked for? Explain why even in random public games, I've seen random players give the team's radial nuker or nukers energy pizzas, or Zenurik energy regen for them, even when the radial nukers may be doing so themselves? As if to implicitly say "hey thanks for speeding up the farm, please continue what you are doing".. Sure, some just go complete AFK or leave. But I've seen people that try to ensure the nuker never runs out of energy too. Because given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game. This isn't just me saying this, this is a quote from Soren Johnson, one of the main designers of the Civilizations game series, and Saryn is a prime example of it in effect: as a hyper-efficient kill frame, she's in demand in certain missions where players care pretty much exclusively about killing efficiency (she's practically mandatory in ESO, for example). That does not, however, mean she is universally in demand across the entire game, nor even that players playing those missions at random will always enjoy having a Saryn on board: when a Saryn enters a game full of people who want to have fun, in this case by engaging in combat with enemies as the game promises, she ruins that experience by removing enemies from play for everyone else, before they can have any real agency over the situation. This is not good, regardless of whether or not she is considered meta for certain mission types, nor is it a healthy mentality to conflate desirability in the metagame with fun. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: Not everyone considers radial nukers a bad thing, or as some sort of personal attack on their own enjoyment or what not. Some people actually accept and help the radial nukers. So first off, we're talking about Saryn, not radial nukers as a whole, and second, the fact that a minority of people are prepared to sacrifice enjoyment over efficiency in a video game does not erase the fact that many more people would rather not have to make that compromise, much less have that compromise made for them. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: Also, explain why is it when you recruit and try to say "No nukers", you have a hard time? I know this, because I tried myself just to see how successful it would go. It wasn't. Waited 5 minutes in silence. As per the above, because it is inefficient, and thus undesirable, even if the result were to be more enjoyable. Incidentally, you just also proved how bad it would actually be to force people who dislike Saryn to rely on Recruiting chat to go for Saryn-less games, or in your case nuker-less games, as five minutes just to enter a single mission is an unacceptably long time. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: Tried again to ask for "casual" game and someone asked me what that entails, which I said preferably no nukers. And he asks me if I have some issue. Technically, not me, I am asking for a "friend", heh. Perhaps you have better luck, who knows. But also, could it be because this is the less popular view? You want to impose a less popular thing on others.Why is it that something could be less popular? Maybe because people generally don't like it? Maybe because people want to kill fodder enemies fast, having mastered the art of killing them, which doesn't require much since the AI of the generic fodder enemy is so basic and their life is paper, and as their levels go up, they just become damage sponges, and you generally know how it goes during the first 100 hours of playing warframe and want to move on to other content like maybe Eidolons, which they have not reached yet? And they want to get the loot and make progress with completing their builds, or getting stuff to sell and earn platinum, etc.? So if you enforce an unpopular view on others and make them play your way, just who is refusing to empathize? I'm rather confused by this line of argumentation, because virtually no statement you've produced follows from the previous one. Why does the undesirability of a suboptimal strat mean that said strat is less fun than the optimal one? Since when has the fun in Warframe exclusively boiled down to rewards, and not the gameplay to obtain them? What you're revealing here is a rather disturbing, goal-obsessed mentality that cares only about loot to the detriment of the actual game, one that unfortunately has been echoed by the handful of people defending Saryn on this thread. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: Now there is a separate issue of after killing the fodder enemies and exhausting the list of good loot this game offers, we are at max power, and even when not using Saryn, we can trivialize anything with our gun and or sword, and can not die even if we take many bullets to the face thanks to effective immortality abilities, stats, and mods, and we end up dying more due to falling asleep in battle than actual difficulty (hence Space Mum: Wake up, Tenno), but this is NOT Saryn's fault. Nor the mods. Nor the rivens. Or anything else I've seen people try to scapegoat as the cause of this boredom. It is LACK OF ENDGAME CONTENT. As we progressed from MR1 to MR27, DE gave us many different ways to achieve overkill or immortality. This part is fine and good, as its part of RPG level progression mechanics. But they didn't give us enemies or modes to match, hence we remain in the state of "overkill" and "immortal" as nothing has scaled up to match us. I similarly do not know how to respond to this, because this is an argument you've conjured out of nowhere that just so happens to prove exactly what is so wrong about the aforementioned mentality: all of the things you mentioned, i.e. immortality, one-shot damage, excessive CC, and so on, make our gameplay more efficient, but also ultimately more boring, when those factors are not kept in check. The end result of a mentality that cares only about rewards and efficiency is one where we trivialize all game content, blaze through to the rewards as efficiently as possible, and find ourselves all dressed up with nowhere to go. It is the reason why veterans fail to derive any challenge from new content, blast through even the most intense grinding barriers long before Digital Extremes can get to the next substantial release, and inevitably burn out. For sure, many of these problems are systemic, particularly with mods, but that does not prevent the existence of specific abuse cases as well: Saryn is one, because the very design of her kit is unhealthy for the reasons mentioned above. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: Easy way to solve this is to just say nerf it all. But nerfs can be perceived negatively, as disrespectful: it can cause previously strong equipment to become trash, with no recourse, no way to restore them to former glory cos the developers gutted it and no forma will ever salvage it. People can feel sleighted, regardless of "live service" terms and conditions. I can agree with this: if a strong, yet ultimately unproblematic feature gets nerfed to uselessness, that's terrible, and disrespectful of the commitment players may have put towards that feature. For all its problems, for example, the Tonkor got overnerfed, and that stung quite a few players. This is not, however, an indictment of nerfs in and of itself, because I think even you can agree that nerfs are often a necessary evil, and can have a beneficial effect upon the game provided they are applied correctly. In this particular case, I don't even believe the solution need be something as simplistic as a blanket nerf, and conflating any redesign with a nerf belies a fundamental insecurity towards change. On many occasions here, for example, I stated that I'd be perfectly fine with giving Saryn a net buff, provided the problematic aspects of her kit were addressed. In general, as also stated, I don't care all that much about power levels, I care about design and how that impacts the game. If Banshee's 1 dealt a billion damage, that damage would be OP, but would ultimately not have a significantly harmful impact upon the rest of the game. Meanwhile, Ember in her current state manages to be both weak and unhealthy, hence why she's getting a rework. Saryn is almost certainly overpowered, but that much is fine; her propensity to make the game less enjoyable for her teammates, however, is not. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: So how to restore challenge or provide interactivity (which is what you want) and hopefully new interest? Also bring new crowds to make the game even appeal to more audiences? MORE MODES and ENEMY TYPES which can take the form of endgame content as well. Not nerf early and midgame stuff and prolong the easy mode - we all know how to deal with these fodder, don't need to make it longer. You mean like Nullifiers? Because those went down so well with the community... /s Also, as proven by ESO, more modes aren't really the answer, because so long as frames trivialize the fundamental mechanics of this game, the only way a mode would deliver a challenge would be by introducing an entirely new set of mechanics, a move that was both unsuccessful and widely derided when DE attempted this with the Exploiter Orb. On 2019-10-17 at 6:13 PM, Xepthrichros said: And to show I empathize, I will copy and paste what I suggest as a possible way to make even the fodder enemies even more difficult to kill (hence interactive), like Hydron and other defense maps, more enjoyable to people that want it. Here's an even more massive wall of text taken from elsewhere on the forums where I posted this. It's a spitball. One probably can add more difficulty settings in between those I put there. Also, there is that concern I've seen regarding not enough players to play games together if everyone is stratified into so many difficulty settings. This will remain a concern only if the game remains the way it does right now. If it has more difficulty settings or challenges, it will start appealing to more audiences, the community gets bigger, and each difficulty setting will eventually have their own player base and I can imagine some people choosing to play exclusively in various settings. I never played Destiny 2 but I heard from some people it has more challenge, and I also see it has more players, . They are around 147k as of the moment I just checked, and Warframe is around 33k in steam. Anyway, wall of text below Reveal hidden contents I think a difficult slider is needed to appease the community's very different views on what they want this game to be for them. We have a bunch that want the game to be more difficult. We have people who want nerfs on all the press 4s. Some want rivens gone. Some hate power creep. Some want skill based play. Some want Warframe to satisfy the urge Dark Souls created within them years ago. Then some want the game to remain easy. They want all thing viable in all situations, fashion frame is the most important. Some enjoy the power fantasy of decimating whole groups of enemies with pure power. Some don't like the idea of meta. Some like meta and understand different frames have different roles. Some frames for spy, some for ESO, some for Eidolon hunts etc. Some ask for enemies and possibly challenging content (e.g. Orb Mother, Arbitration) to be made easier. Some play warframe solo and are concerned how certain short-sighted nerfs affect single player play Some understand warframe has Action RPG elements like leveling up so we have weak level enemies, high level enemies, and warframes and guns that cater to respective power levels, and bringing strong gear to a low level area would result in a steam roll. (one can kill all bosses in Dark Souls in one hit too, with sufficient leveling up, btw... warframe equivalent of leveling = mods) Developers have difficult time catering to one group without upsetting another group. Make hard content and people ask the boss or enemy to get nerfed. Nerf a bunch of frames and get a whole lot of salty rage posts asking for undoing the nerf, making reworks, etc. And now that the long "preamble" is out of the way ---------------- ACTUAL SUGGESTION STARTS HERE ------------------- We need a difficulty slider for all missions and content types. Note: all numbers here are just placeholders. Definitely would need tweaking based on how players perform in the modes. I suggest: Easy, Normal, Difficult, Hell. You can only matchmake with people who are playing on the same difficulty setting. Normal Mode: Basically, the game as it is right now, across the board. No changes or tweaks. Easy Mode: Enemies nerfed, Players buffed. Orb mothers changed from being immune to abilities, to being able to get CC-ed for 20% of the actual full duration, and take 20% of ability damage, likewise for the Eidolon sentient shielding. Players get extra lives. Disruption demolisher units are more vulnerable to abilities, and move slower. Nullifier bubbles are smaller and have less HP. Less nullfiiers and energy leech eximus spawn. Even in arbitration, you are given 2 lives. Arbitration drones no longer grant immunity to abilities but reduce ability damage. Slightly increase shield and energy regen for players. More energy orbs. More time to hack in consoles. Tripping a sensor in spy vaults may not cause "data destruction imminent". BUT loot drop table will be adjusted. Rare, coveted items such as Ephemeras, and good arcanes, certain gold mods, have their CHANCE to drop halved, and the chance for the average loot is increased. You still have a chance to get the rare item as it is still in the drop table. But since it is now going to be easier for you to kill these enemies/bosses due to the easy mode, the chance is reduced. Applies to the loot obtained as rotational rewards, and also the drops from enemies e.g. Acceltra blueprint drop rate will be lowered if you play the disruption in easy mode. Difficulty can even affect animal conservation and fishing and skateboarding. Fish move slower. Animals spook less easily. But rate of rare fish or animals appearing is reduced. Skateboard racing time longer, but points and affinity earned is less. Difficult Mode: Enemies buffed. They get slightly higher fire rate. More armor or shields. And take innate 20% less damage from nuking abilities, and 10% less CC duration from CC effects. Enemies will always survive an initial ability cast. I.e. if fodder Hydron unit is hit by Saryn's spores, their health drops to 1, and to be finished off, has to be hit by a second ability cast such as Miasma or another player's ability, maybe, Pull from Mag, or just a bullet or slash from a zaw. Animals in conservation are more sensitive and alert, they detect you more easily. Fish swim faster. Skateboard race time duration lower. More nullies spawn. More energy leech eximus spawn. Arc trap radius on grineer tilesets increased. Enemy vision detection range increased. Hacking time stricter. I can see certain forum mains using Difficult Mode on Hydron just from all the times I read people complaining of 4-to-win in fodder farming tilesets. For the trouble of playing in difficult mode... Chance of good loot increased, including better drop chances for the relics of the current Prime Access, or relics containing items from the Vault unsealed. Increased chance for Ephemeras and other rare things by 1 or 2% from their current chance. Hell mode: Enemies buffed further. Grineers get shields in addition to their usual armor. Corpus get armor in addition to usual shields. They take 50% less damage from nukes, and CC last 20% shorter. Expect more Bursa, Corpus Techs, Heavy Gunners, Arsons, Bombards, Noxes, Ancient Healers, Leech Eximus, Nullifiers. Nullifier bubbles bigger. Leech auras reach further. Enemy guns have partial damage reduction bypass, so yes, even your Iron Skin, armor, will not utterly trivialize threat or grant effective immortality. Even stricter hacking time. Disruption demolishers run faster. Arbitration drones HP doubled. Animals detect you from even further away. Skateboarding requires perfection and mastery of the route. Fish are constantly panicking the moment they see your silhouette over the water. Orb mother health doubled. Sentient shielding doubled. Triple the number of Vomvalyst spawning and they heal the Eidolon often. Enemies will definitely NOT fall for any kind of camping tactics in survival and instead stay far away from your desired walkway. Player max energy reduced by 20%. Player energy regen from orbs reduced by 20%. Player movement reduced by 20%. Extra lives reduced by 1, regardless of Arcanes equipped or not. Operator to Warframe has built in cooldown and cannot spam 5 repeatedly. Chance of good loot further increased and quantity also increased, including even better drop chances for the relics of the current Prime Access, or relics containing items from the Vault unsealed, with occasionally 2x relic dropping at one rotation. The mission will take longer, be more stressful and more risk of failure, but the reward will hopefully compensate. So your brilliant plan to solve all of Warframe's balance problems... is to make enemies tankier, homogenize enemy health types, and add cooldowns to abilities that are meant to be frequently used, and whose split-second use constitutes one of the few genuine elements of skill expression in the game. Forgive me, but I don't see how this fixes anything, least of all Saryn. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: First off your conclusion that I was arguing that she wasn't designed for group play is entirely incorrect. Also I never asked you to conclude anything I simply asked you to provide a reference where I "stated" she wasn't designed for group play. Which you have failed to do and quite honestly can't because I never made such a statement. In other words, you are desperately attempting to backpedal by disavowing your prior statement, which in itself fatally undermines the entire argument you were making to excuse Saryn's design. Moreover, you are playing politician by trying to retreat on the fact that you did not literally state whichever statement you had made up on the spot, when it is clear to see exactly what you meant from the excerpt I quoted. You tried to tell me Saryn didn't need to be designed with group play rules in mind because of solo play, and you failed spectacularly. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: As far as what I was referencing in the second quote was the following statement: I was referring to the first sentence in your above post because it is the premise on which the second sentence is built. If warframe was a multiplayer only game then your assertion that any frame that is harmful to multiplayer gameplay needs to change as opposed to the entire playerbase changing might hold some water. For Warframe to be a multiplayer only game it would mean that players would be forced to group to complete any content. Players are not forced to group at all and content can be done in a group or solo as the player sees fit. Even if a frame was harmful to the multiplayer side of the house it wouldn't mean that she was harmful to the solo-player side of the house thus your use of "entire playerbase" is misleading at best and blatantly incorrect at worst. This is illogical, and is founded upon a deliberate misrepresentation of my premise: at no point did I state that Warframe was a multiplayer-only game, only that it was multiplayer. Contrary to you, however, I did not imply this either, because I went on to explain how the existence of solo play in Warframe (which I fully acknowledged as well, as I play quite a few missions solo) does not excuse multiplayer-unfriendly frame design. Additionally, your conclusion here does not even follow from the false premise you set, and only underlines how you genuinely seem to be asking for "the entire playerbase" (your words, not mine) to change for the sake of a minority. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: Now for your second assertion. I would gladly accept the bold section above as correct if the assertion held true in an absolute or majority sense. If a frames gameplay is harmful to multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game (which Warframe obviously contains portions of) , that frame needs to change. Hold on there: Warframe doesn't "contain portions" of multiplayer gameplay, it is a multiplayer game at its core. The only truly solo-exclusive content is questing, and even then several among them can be at least partially completed through cooperative play, e.g. the Limbo Theorem. If you want to continue on your above line of pedantry, you could say that this does technically mean that only a portion of Warframe's gameplay is multiplayer, though that "portion" would be the near-totality of its content. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: Ok so lets look at that. Your posts and the posts of others in multiple rework Saryn type threads provide evidence that Saryn's kit provides a definite hindrance to a portion of the populace where group play is concerned by over limiting the amount of enemies available for other group members to kill within what they feel is a reasonable distance. There are also other players' posts in these multiple rework Saryn threads that provide evidence that Saryn's kit provides a definite benefit to a portion of the populace where group play is concerned by increasing the killing efficiency and overall kill numbers, among other benefits. So we can see that Saryn's kit is not harmful to "all" multiplayer gameplay however it does negatively effect the multiplayer gameplay for some portion of the playerbase. This is the exact same argument that has already been said by Klokwerkaos and Xephthricros, and refuted many times already. Yes, Saryn is hyper-efficient, and no, that does not excuse her from sacrificing other people's fun. You are establishing a false equivalence here that, as discussed above already, becomes absurd upon applying the slightest amount of critical thinking. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: Whether (thank you for the corrective spelling suggestion btw.) that requires a change to Saryn's kit or not depends upon several factors two of which are; how many players are currently affected in a negative manner vs the number of players who are currently affected in a positive manner, and what other alternative measures currently exist or can be created with minimal negative impact to the playerbase as a whole. I disagree completely, and would in fact count players positively affected by Saryn's efficiency in her current state as a negative: if the only reason to defend Saryn is because she trivializes high-level gameplay, that in itself is all the more reason to change her. It is obvious from the number of those ardent defenders here that more efficient access to loot is their sole motivator, in a game that struggles to keep veterans engaged precisely because frames like Saryn trivialize game modes intended to be challenging. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: I would like to add a side note here as I have been noticing an error that many in this thread have made that serves as an outright misrepresentation concerning the populace at large. That would be the use of "everyone" or "everyone else" in the prosecution or defense of a perspective without the use of descriptive limitations such as "everyone who uses the party tool" vs "everyone" (without any further descriptive limitations). The fact is none of us speaks for everyone in Warframe. We speak on our own behalf and there will most assuredly be some portion of the population that shares a similar or even the same perspective inside these threads and even beyond the forums. However, however large or small that population may be at the end of the day we cannot claim to "know" whether that population is in the minority or majority outside the confines of these forums. Thus for the sake of clarity if you must use these terms please use descriptive limiters to identify which groups you are talking about if you want to keep any measure or believe-ability. This is a whole lot of pretentious word salad just to say that nobody here has access to the hard numbers. That, in turn, is an utterly trite argument typically used by people who are keenly aware of the fact that they're in the minority, and while nobody here has access to the exact statistics, it is clear to see that Saryn's critics far outnumber her defenders, not just on this thread but on every discussion of her following her rework. If another poster is telling the truth, apparently DE does in fact acknowledge this, with Pablo promising a re-rework. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: Now back to the discussion: So the first point is that Saryn's kit should be changed to eliminate the "possibility" of harm to multiplayer gameplay. So what portions of the playerbase would implementing this change affect (in a positive or negative manner is not the argument yet we are just looking at those who would be affected). Anyone who plays Saryn or groups with Saryn after the change would be affected. (In my opinion this number would be massive compared to the number not affected). The only players I can think of that would not be affected would be those who either don't acquire Saryn or never play her and are solo only players on top of that. (Maybe they quit before then or maybe she just doesn't appeal to them at all.) How many would be affected by increased party tool controls? Anyone who uses the party tool to randomly fill out groups or randomly find groups to play in would be affected. Anyone who plays solo only or only invites friends or only uses targeted invites would not be affected. Once you have an honest assessment of those numbers then you can begin to break down what portions of those numbers are affected in a negative or positive way. You would need those numbers for a decision based on the majority because both those situations and populations currently exist. And had you ever done any actual statistical work, you would realize that you are confusing far too many factors here to derive any sort of meaningful conclusion: for sure, number of people affected is a factor, but the valence of the impact matters as well, as it is obviously better for example to strictly benefit a small group of people than it is to strictly harm a large one (and if you flip the sizes this becomes even more self-evidently true). As even Xephthricros admitted, going to Recruiting chat just to avoid playing with a frame is a miserable and horrendously time-consuming experience, whereas the proposed change to Saryn is not even guaranteed to negatively affect those who enjoy playing her now, save for the much smaller subset of people who are averse to all change by default. Thus, it would still be in the interest of the greater good to rework Saryn, and this is without even mentioning literally every rework in the game, all of which apparently went through that impact assessment and were deemed worthy. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: Regardless which change is chosen some population is going to be inconvenienced. Claims of "massively inconvenienced" sound like hype to me as no one wants to be inconvenienced no matter the degree. And both sides will claim the amount they suffer is the worst. I would agree that out of all the options, besides changing Saryn's kit, using the recruiting chat to find group members sounds like the most frustrating. Hence why I suggested the use of friends or providing feedback on a better party tool control measures. You don't have to take my word for it, Xephthrichros said as much, and they're trying to defend Saryn (I think). For you to not see the order of magnitude in delayed joining times suggests you either have never used Recruiting chat, or simply do not wish to acknowledge how going through that process is significantly slower than just clicking on a node and joining a pub. Part of the problem with insisting that everything is subjective and whatnot is that it never goes in the favor of the person making said argument, and when overused it makes them come across as out of touch with the subject matter they are discussing. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: The issue I see is that you are unwilling to even discuss these and instead dismiss them outright, demanding at the same time that Saryn kit changes would benefit "everyone" (which they clearly wouldn't). Yes changes to Saryn's kit would clearly benefit those who don't enjoy playing her or with her in groups due to her current kit state but what portion of the populace do these players truly represent? Again only DE knows. I have no interest in discussing better party tools here in the same manner I have no interest in discussing a rework to the Leverian: because it is completely irrelevant to the subject matter. No amount of perfect party tooling is going to counter the fact that you are asking players to go through a slower and more convoluted process to arrive at the same result, and so to avoid a gameplay problem they should not even need to work around. No matter how efficient or quick your party tooling system, this will always remain the case. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: While we are on the topic of populations: When I stated that I am only seeing a vocal few that have problems with Saryn I was referring to the fact that the amount that are vocally requesting for changes to Saryn, in the forums, are only a few out of the entire populace of Warframe players. It makes sense that only a potion of the players who are displeased with something in a game will actually take the time to post about it in the forums. Thus the number of people who are displeased with a specific mechanic or item in the game will most likely be larger than the population posting about it. It also makes sense that fewer players, who are not displeased about a specific mechanic and enjoy it, will come to the forums to post in defenses of that mechanic because they are to busy enjoying the game. Those that do come to post in defense of those mechanics do so to ensure that their side is represented and that changes are not haphazardly made based on input that is one sided only. So yes while I have not counted I would agree that it is likely that, in the confines of Saryn rework threads, those desiring change outnumber those desiring no change. My point however is that just because those desiring change outnumber those desiring no change (within the confines of rework threads) does not mean that the opposite is not true when expanded beyond the confines of the forums to the entire player population as a whole. As far as DE's opinion is concerned you would be correct that neither of us knows anymore than the other and I never suggested such. I do see where it would be beneficial to know the actual statistics but I don't think either of us will actually be exposed to those. This yet again misunderstands basic statistics via sample sizes, and visibly misrepresents both sides of the argument, as the people rushing to her defense aren't doing so out of a desire for representation, but out of a transparent fear that their ESO easymode strat may no longer be viable. Again, your argument here is a platitude that applies to literally any criticism on these forums, Reddit, etc., but guess what: DE still acts on this feedback. On 2019-10-17 at 6:33 PM, Aesthier said: At the end of the Day DE will most likely change or not change Saryn based upon the statistical majority, only they are privy to, or based upon their future vision of Saryn or perhaps both. Until then I would expect you to hold to your guns as I will mine. If you truly believed this hypocritical argument, you wouldn't have entered this discussion in the first place. So long as Saryn continues to remain in an unhealthy state, I will continue to offer reasoned criticism and suggestions on how to move forward. You are free to feel differently about this, but you do not have license to silence other people based on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pizzarugi Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: Because given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game. Just adding a link here, in case anyone's curious. Overall, I agree with Teridax who explains criticisms I have better than I ever could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyabi-sama Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 46 минут назад, Pizzarugi сказал: And so we've reached the inevitable conclusion where arguments boil down to nonsense, because you have no way of actually defending why your walking "I win!" button doesn't need to be nerfed. "No you." Your arguments about other frames can't best Saryn in damage dealing aspect are a blatant nonsense and signalling your poor experience in the game. 48 минут назад, Pizzarugi сказал: At least Destiny 2 is more balanced, which is more than I can say for this game. Welp, my bad, I din't thought Destiny is better game. Look, if you want to change Saryn from OP to viable - do that, I'll embrace it. It's one of my least played frame anyway so won't hurt me much. But doing that for sake of making game "fair to players" is just unfair for other players. Saryn is just as powercreep product, as there are kitguns, sniper guns, rivens and other nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said: Look, if you want to change Saryn from OP to viable - do that, I'll embrace it. Yours, and others, constant reeing at anyone who suggests a nerf say otherwise. Bit sassy perhaps? Merely want to point out that if you're willing to embrace a nerf insomuch that she remains viable, maybe tone it down a bit? Edited October 18, 2019 by DeMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pizzarugi Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said: "No you." Your arguments about other frames can't best Saryn in damage dealing aspect are a blatant nonsense and signalling your poor experience in the game. And yet you've done nothing to prove otherwise, beyond "git gud scrub". Against Corpus, you might have a point since the element used in most of her abilities destroys shields, especially with Polarize. However, Magnetize is the real heavy hitter that deals multiplicative projectile damage to all targets inside the bubble which only has 4m range. Even if you were to maximize it to about 250% range, that only goes up to 10m. It would shred small groups of enemies and kill tanks, but for it to wipe out entire rooms the same way a Saryn can? I doubt it. 8 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said: Look, if you want to change Saryn from OP to viable - do that, I'll embrace it. It's one of my least played frame anyway so won't hurt me much. But doing that for sake of making game "fair to players" is just unfair for other players. It's not just about making the game fair to other players. Saryn is among the most efficient killing frames in the game that allows anyone playing as, or with, them to just zoom right to the objective then head to extraction. A lot of the game revolves around killing enemies, a lot of them in fact, but there are a handful that can remove them from the game as quickly as they arrive. Not only does this overall make the game more trivial to the players who play with frames like Saryn, it also makes it more trivial for the people who play them. 14 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said: Saryn is just as powercreep product, as there are kitguns, sniper guns, rivens and other nonsense. While you're not incorrect, the issue is that comparing a Catchmoon kitgun or snipers to Saryn is like comparing apples to lawnmowers. These two guns can trivialize boss fights, but they can't match up to what Saryn can do with her stacked viral and corrosive abilities against entire rooms of enemies. At least players running kitguns can't clear nearly as fast as Saryn can, so you can actually do something besides simply hoovering up resources or zooming to objective/extraction. I'm not denying that there's other overpowered aspects in the game, but in the grand scheme of things, frames like Saryn are a much higher priority issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyabi-sama Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 минуты назад, Pizzarugi сказал: I'm not denying that there's other overpowered aspects in the game, but in the grand scheme of things, frames like Saryn are a much higher priority issue. If that's the issue in the first place at all. Players choose to use this power themselves, game is not making them to. Having in mind that "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game", changing Saryn does not solve anything, only soothes the constant reeing of anyone who ultimately demands nerfing things like there is no tomorrow. And after that we'll see another "Volt ruins my ESO experience" thread. And yes, I might be riled up a bit by people civilly discussing something in the Saryn-hate thread, I apologize for "git gud" gibberish. If we speak about starchart (the main dwelling of major playerbase) there is a lot of frames can compete saryn in just making the job done. We could make some tests together and you'd be surprised how great Mag fares against Grineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xepthrichros Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Teridax68 said: What you're revealing here is a rather disturbing, goal-obsessed mentality that cares only about loot to the detriment of the actual game, one that unfortunately has been echoed by the handful of people defending Saryn on this thread The game is LOOTER shooter with RPG mechanics like leveling up (see mods). Not just a shooter. It has tens of thousands of Endo you need to grind for, among RNG to get prime parts, and many other stuff. Such mechanics attract such people who want to get the loot and also makes them want to get faster. Heck, I bet one reason the devs let max level players play with low level players is to entice the low level players to work harder and level up to catch up. That, of course, will backfire when they reach max level and realize there's nothing to do, or if the new player is simply are not a Looter or RPG player, just a shooter/action game player, and doesn't want to level so much, so they turn around and ask for nerfs on what they deem is OP or hinders their ability to feel action. But, really, what do you expect when you create tons of loot for people to get? The loot and RPG-oriented people will go get it. And people are smart and find meta ways. And Saryn + other radial nukers are part of meta (and you also talk about radial nukes yourself so please don't try to sidestep this part of the argument when its just convenient for you) Take away Saryn and something else will be meta until people clamour to nerf that again. And on to the next, and the next etc.. But for sure, this loot and goal oriented mindset is definitely NOT disturbing. This ain't Dota 2 where the game is fresh with every match. This isn't Counter Strike where there's no carried forward character leveilng between matches. And even in those games, people strive for better Kill-death ratios and getting appraised as good team mate etc. and some even hope to become part of eSports tournaments. Please stop trying so hard to frame viewpoints you are against as being so negative because it's starting to make me laugh as I read it. I guess I can thank you for the entertainment. You probably are at a state where you are using warframe as more of action shooter. You do own all things after all. Hence the interactivity demands. Some new players see high level players and they will be more goal-oriented to reach high MR or get some kind of radial nuker. Some veterans remain in goal oriented state anyway as they shift their goal from having all the MR, to maybe having all the plat and farm for stuff to sell. Hence, while you might be content with doing things slowly cos you feel you have nowhere else to go, others have goals to do and want to get there, and use the meta to help themselves. You and them keep getting put int he same games, and thus we have an endless war. Anyway, although we do not know the full mechanics of the Kuva Lich yet. I hope that mode offers sustainable endgame and interactivity, than my own half-baked spitball difficulty slider or DE's annoying nullifiers. Maybe the spawning of Kuva Liches that can use Spores on us, might cause people to think twice about using her and various nukers in missions. This might be a "nerf" that is not an actual numbers or mechanic nerf, hence less obvious and not so bad as a PR move, but a content-based counter to a playstyle. Edited October 19, 2019 by Xepthrichros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnFyreSon Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 22 hours ago, zhellon said: Saryn can kill trash mobs level 50 quite quickly. Gara, to example, under literate equipment can kill with the same speed. But Gara has a fairly impressive defensive powers and can kill with a touch. Why does Saryn have to be nerf, but not Gara? Reveal hidden contents The difference is Gara cant strip armor as well as Saryn can. Also Gara cant kill enemies without LoS, like a certain frame can. These things make a huge difference in kill speed. Ever seen a Gara solo all the way to ESO wave 8? Yea me neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said: The game is LOOTER shooter with RPG mechanics like leveling up (see mods). Not just a shooter. It has tens of thousands of Endo you need to grind for, among RNG to get prime parts, and many other stuff. Such mechanics attract such people who want to get the loot and also makes them want to get faster. Heck, I bet one reason the devs let max level players play with low level players is to entice the low level players to work harder and level up to catch up. That, of course, will backfire when they reach max level and realize there's nothing to do, or if the new player is simply are not a Looter or RPG player, just a shooter/action game player, and doesn't want to level so much, so they turn around and ask for nerfs on what they deem is OP or hinders their ability to feel action. But, really, what do you expect when you create tons of loot for people to get? The loot and RPG-oriented people will go get it. And people are smart and find meta ways. And Saryn + other radial nukers are part of meta (and you also talk about radial nukes yourself so please don't try to sidestep this part of the argument when its just convenient for you) Take away Saryn and something else will be meta until people clamour to nerf that again. And on to the next, and the next etc.. You're right, Warframe is a looter shooter, not just a looter. I am not denying players access to loot, I am simply pointing out that denying players the ability to shoot while playing towards their loot is a terrible idea. Just because some ways of obtaining loot will always be more efficient than others does not mean we should allow bits of design that kill the fun in doing so. Again, I am amazed by how you yourself have so far done an even better job than I have at providing the perfect counter-arguments to your own stance. 4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said: But for sure, this loot and goal oriented mindset is definitely NOT disturbing. This ain't Dota 2 where the game is fresh with every match. This isn't Counter Strike where there's no carried forward character leveilng between matches. And even in those games, people strive for better Kill-death ratios and getting appraised as good team mate etc. and some even hope to become part of eSports tournaments. Please stop trying so hard to frame viewpoints you are against as being so negative because it's starting to make me laugh as I read it. I guess I can thank you for the entertainment. But it is disturbing, because you are treating this video game, a product made to be intrinsically enjoyable to play, and its core gameplay, as obstacles to the sole purpose of acquiring loot, loot that ceases to have any meaning when you divorce it so completely from actual gameplay. You have so completely missed the forest for the trees that you have forgotten that this game you are discussing is intended to be fun to play, and that's not healthy. Striving for better KD ratios, to help out teammates, etc. are all contingent upon playing the actual game in more interesting ways, at least for games like Dota 2 or Counter-Strike where it is legitimately difficult to rack up more kills. By contrast, what you are defending on this thread is a warframe notorious for eliminating this gameplay, trivializing content not just for the player playing them, but for their teammates too. The efficiency behind this gameplay cannot be used to justify this downgrade to overall enjoyment, as even you pointed out how non-interactive mechanics make the game more boring overall. 4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said: You probably are at a state where you are using warframe as more of action shooter. You do own all things after all. Hence the interactivity demands. Some new players see high level players and they will be more goal-oriented to reach high MR or get some kind of radial nuker. Some veterans remain in goal oriented state anyway as they shift their goal from having all the MR, to maybe having all the plat and farm for stuff to sell. Hence, while you might be content with doing things slowly cos you feel you have nowhere else to go, others have goals to do and want to get there, and use the meta to help themselves. You and them keep getting put int he same games, and thus we have an endless war. But this isn't true, as I still have a few things to do: I still need to run ESO for a couple remaining Vandal parts, plus the Ephemera, and also Arbitrations for the new mods. I haven't yet obtained the Acceltra nor the Akarius, and haven't even started farming Atlas Prime Access. There are still a few items here and there for me to obtain, and there are efficient strategies to obtain them. Unlike you, however, I do not believe that justifies a warframe removing interaction from other players with the game, and I don't think that is justified even for players who really do feel in a hurry to obtain loot. And once again, just to stress this: I'm not denouncing all efficient strats here, just the ones that negatively affect other players. A Loki/Ivara can trivialize Spy missions, and Inaros makes a mockery of Arbitrations, but at least those frames only make the game less interactive for the player playing them; they do not bring any harm to others (outside of Switch Teleport trolling that nobody bothers to do). Saryn is the outlier here, in that her method of trivializing the game trivializes the game for everyone in the mission, and that's not okay. 4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said: Anyway, although we do not know the full mechanics of the Kuva Lich yet. I hope that mode offers sustainable endgame and interactivity, than my own half-baked spitball difficulty slider or DE's annoying nullifiers. Maybe the spawning of Kuva Liches that can use Spores on us, might cause people to think twice about using her and various nukers in missions. This might be a "nerf" that is not an actual numbers or mechanic nerf, hence less obvious and not so bad as a PR move, but a content-based counter to a playstyle. Designing purely with short-term PR in mind does not work in practice, as Warframe itself has shown. Make no mistake, I think Kuva Liches will make the game significantly more interesting, but I wouldn't be so quick to assume they'll single-handedly solve our problems with trivial gameplay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xepthrichros Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said: You're right, Warframe is a looter shooter, not just a looter. I am not denying players access to loot, I am simply pointing out that denying players the ability to shoot while playing towards their loot is a terrible idea. Just because some ways of obtaining loot will always be more efficient than others does not mean we should allow bits of design that kill the fun in doing so. Again, I am amazed by how you yourself have so far done an even better job than I have at providing the perfect counter-arguments to your own stance. My so-called "counter arguments against my own stance" only seem that way if taken out of context, and if you want to twist what I say to fit your narrative. Which I note you already have done by using my story about not finding anyone to play with in a "no nuke" game in recruiting. I said this to point out your playstyle is not favored by other people, hence the lack of people that want to play with me when I ask for something that similar to your view in recruiting, but you went ahead to use it to support your own ideas, insisting that efficiency and fun are separate, and whatever else (when for some people, the efficiency, IS the fun, seeing shiny loot IS the fun, killing brain dead enemies for the 1000th time has stopped being fun, etc.) And whatever issues I highlight about our OP-ness always leads up to that we need more modes and content to challenge our OP-ness, and to allow everyone their space to play the way they like. NOT asking the devs to delete whatever playstyle we don't like. How would you like it if the positions were reversed and if goal-oriented or efficient-oriented players decided to be more more pushy and also ask for similar imposing demands, for example: - People who hang about slowly killing stuff after the objective is completed are trolls. They limit my ability to complete my mission and get my loot.. Let us be able vote kick or just force extract, in ALL mission types including capture, exterminate, etc. I don't care if I'm host and force extraction causes the stragglers to have problems - their fault being slow. - People who pick frames with particular skills that can heal or nuke, but then they don't heal or nuke, are griefers, not using their skills properly, and they are MR20+, so I am fairly sure they know the game well enough, and still behaving like this. Inexcusable and reportable offense. - Not a forum post, but in the game chat, they start criticizing you or saying stuff like "hurry up" etc. Or some other overreaction against your play style, or anyone else's play style. I would also tell these people to chill out and this isn't eSports pro-league, and if you really want to impose expectations everywhere, go play solo or recruit to get people who would fit your expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teridax68 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: My so-called "counter arguments against my own stance" only seem that way if taken out of context, and if you want to twist what I say to fit your narrative. What exactly am I taking out of context, pray tell? I merely took what you said, and pointed out that you were invoking Warframe being a looter shooter, yet also deliciously forgetting that you were trying to excuse Saryn killing the shooter portion, as you were exclusively focusing on the looter aspect to the point of absurdity. Once again, I have to thank you for giving everyone on this thread the exact reason for why Saryn needs to change, which just so happens to defeat your entire line of efficiency-centric argumentation. 42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: Which I note you already have done by using my story about not finding anyone to play with in a "no nuke" game in recruiting. I said this to point out your playstyle is not favored by other people, hence the lack of people that want to play with me when I ask for something that similar to your view in recruiting, but you went ahead to use it to support your own ideas, insisting that efficiency and fun are separate, and whatever else (when for some people, the efficiency, IS the fun, seeing shiny loot IS the fun, killing brain dead enemies for the 1000th time has stopped being fun, etc.) Because that is the natural conclusion of your own statement. You don't seem to understand what taking things out of context actually entails, because I specifically took your statement in full context, and pointed out how badly it harms your argument, in this case by proving that the suggestion to force players into Recruiting chat just to avoid Saryn would be a horrible idea. Having others derive alternative conclusions from your claims isn't them taking anything out of context, it's you having your own clumsy, short-sighted, and self-defeating arguments get rightfully used against you, as your own conclusions do not even follow from the examples you're listing, a fact I also pointed out. In other words, you are doing an even better job of defeating your point than anyone else. 42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: And whatever issues I highlight about our OP-ness always leads up to that we need more modes and content to challenge our OP-ness, and to allow everyone their space to play the way they like. NOT asking the devs to delete whatever playstyle we don't like. And yet they do this, often to great success, because you can't just compartmentalize every problem to a specific game mode or enemy type. So long as Saryn doesn't get addressed, she will continue mass-murdering enemies before her teammates get a chance to do so, so unless you are proposing to give every enemy immunity to Spores (which would make Saryn feel absolutely horrible to play), that problem isn't going away by any other method. 42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: How would you like it if the positions were reversed and if goal-oriented or efficient-oriented players decided to be more more pushy and also ask for similar imposing demands, for example: - People who hang about slowly killing stuff after the objective is completed are trolls. They limit my ability to complete my mission and get my loot.. Let us be able vote kick or just force extract, in ALL mission types including capture, exterminate, etc. I don't care if I'm host and force extraction causes the stragglers to have problems - their fault being slow. People legitimately make this request, though, and are rightfully laughed out the door when it's just players not parkouring as fast, because... well, what are you going to do about it? When it is players playing hallway hero, though, DE did in fact take action against this, by implementing Affinity range and changing enemy spawns to discourage players from splitting off. Thus, these efficiency-oriented players have in fact been catered to. 42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: - People who pick frames with particular skills that can heal or nuke, but then they don't heal or nuke, are griefers, not using their skills properly, and they are MR20+, so I am fairly sure they know the game well enough, and still behaving like this. Inexcusable and reportable offense. People do in fact complain at length about how Limbo or even Volt grief people, accidentally or otherwise, via abilities that disrupt their regular gameplay. I myself am a big proponent of making those effects opt-in, rather than opt-out, to remediate that. Moreover, as a Trinity player, I am acutely aware of terrible players haranguing me because I didn't cast Blessing while they were dying on the other side of the tileset, or asking for EV while killing enemies before I can mark them, seemingly while having no issues actually playing the mission. In this particular case, unless you have established a covenant to play to some higher standard, the game is sufficiently easy enough that no-one needs to use their abilities, let alone to some pro degree, and nobody should enter a pug match expecting someone else to feed them utility, because that is the same kind of entitled mentality as the one driving Saryn players excusing how they make missions more boring for others, all because they just want more efficiency. 42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: - Not a forum post, but in the game chat, they start criticizing you or saying stuff like "hurry up" etc. If you're dawdling in a pub match and doing your own thing, sure, that's justified. If you're a low-MR player who may not even know what a bullet jump is, obviously not, and the player typing that out is a jerk. In both cases, though, extraction timers exist for a reason, so that problem is already mitigated. 42 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said: Or some other overreaction against your play style, or anyone else's play style. I would also tell these people to chill out and this isn't eSports pro-league, and if you really want to impose expectations everywhere, go play solo or recruit to get people who would fit your expectations. Overreaction to... which playstyle, exactly? I don't see why it would be anyone's business if my playstyle only affected how I played, but if my playstyle was actively detrimental to the enjoyment of others, e.g. if I decided to play some minimum-range Limbo and spam Banish all the time on my allies, then yeah, people would absolutely have the right to complain. I don't see the contradiction here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnFyreSon Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 This thread is 90% two people throwing text walls at each other without really understanding each other.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurpgork Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Xepthrichros said: When for some people, the efficiency, IS the fun, seeing shiny loot IS the fun, killing brain dead enemies for the 1000th time has stopped being fun, etc. And that's the point when Warframe has stopped being a game and started being a Skinner box. Yes, there will always be one group in this playerbase who are interested in this game because it's a crazy action game about ninjas with space magic, and another group who plays this game because they get a dopamine hit when they get an Arcane Energize. And while both of these things have a reason to exist in the game, they aren't equal. One of these paradigms has created dozens of boring, grindy games that are poorly regarded and short lived. The other has created one of the most unique and complex games of the decade. So if Saryn appeals to the pure grind group at the expense of the group that's here for the bonkers space ninja nonsense--and she is for reasons that myself and others have outlined in this thread--then we have a pretty serious problem on our hands. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klokwerkaos Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, DawnFyreSon said: This thread is 90% two people throwing text walls at each other without really understanding each other.... I don't think it's that people don't understand eachother, it's that they have fundamentally incompatible viewpoints. That said, I have been a long time proponent that this doesn't need to change... but I may have to switch sides possibly if the melee rework goes poorly. Right now melee is the only thing that keeps saryn in check, and makes all frames viable. If we go back to a time when we need to rely on frames we end up with tier lists and only certain frames being viable again, and if it is impossible to outpace saryn (instead of just requiring appropriate player investment) then it will be a return to tier lists, and saryn vastly outpaces other frames in side by side comparison. Yes someone needs to be the top dps frame, but they shouldn't be 10 grades ahead of other frames if there is no possible way to outdo that. This is fine if there is a viable alternative... but if there isn't then it starts to matter. This is less an issue now because all frames are viable, but when only saryn is viable, then all other frames get hist migration as a standard response, and that is a bad player experience. It's one thing at the moment where a handful of folks experience this and get mad about it... it's another if everyone is forced into a particular meta, like with eidolons for the first year or so. Overall tier lists and forced meta is bad for warframe players both new and old. Fingers crossed they don't completely screw the pooch in the combo and range situation. Edited October 20, 2019 by Klokwerkaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodedSkate89 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Doesnt look like there will be one any time soon. If there was gonna be one saryn wouldve been nerfed when she was put in the prime vault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Famecans Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) On 02/10/2019 at 14:06, ReaverKane said: Why not let them fix the actual unplayable frames before you start worrying with the warframes you're just annoyed because you can't be a "hero" when they're around. FYI, i can outdamage Saryin with Volt and Equinox easily on Onslaught and on Hydron, and Volt is actually awesome for Eidonlons. Also, i've out-damaged good Saryn players with Ember on Exterminates in that last year. nuclear frames steals kills Edited October 20, 2019 by Famecans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andele3025 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 On 2019-10-19 at 4:26 PM, Gurpgork said: And that's the point when Warframe has stopped being a game and started being a Skinner box. Yes, there will always be one group in this playerbase who are interested in this game because it's a crazy action game about ninjas with space magic, and another group who plays this game because they get a dopamine hit when they get an Arcane Energize. And while both of these things have a reason to exist in the game, they aren't equal. One of these paradigms has created dozens of boring, grindy games that are poorly regarded and short lived. The other has created one of the most unique and complex games of the decade. So if Saryn appeals to the pure grind group at the expense of the group that's here for the bonkers space ninja nonsense--and she is for reasons that myself and others have outlined in this thread--then we have a pretty serious problem on our hands. I mean, i like and use Saryn not as a nuker, but melee frame. Spam 2 every 5 seconds, use 3 whenever every 15~ish seconds, 1 for armor strip spread and 4 to stun enemies as at 40% duration the Dot is just short enough to last for the stun not leaving anyone immune/still infected thus not influenced by second miasma stun and repeat, with her passive being a nice little boost to slash and toxin procs, so its not that her kit is designed for one group over the other, but that some numbers and scaling choices in it encourage a specific build. E.g. 200% power strength being close to mandatory on saryn/hurts quite a bit if you dont hit it in terms of kill time and overall play speed due to it scaling everything one wants no matter what build (specifically because spore status chance is influenced by it along with regen molt heals being in chunks instead of as regeneration effect thus bigger instances are better along with a tankier aggro pull and more toxin damage) means she has a expected power floor on most setups (as it ofc also buffs base damage, damage ramp and reduces decay rate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 3 hours ago, Famecans said: nuclear frames steals kills And you should thank them for the extra weapon affinity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Famecans Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ReaverKane said: And you should thank them for the extra weapon affinity! yep and nop I am quoting against indications of this frame in some squads or missions, I played with saryn on a survival opening relic and the traces and drops were scattered across the map, not always the cause helps the squad honestly, saryn in hydron is not a bad thing, but a good thing, I think the topic creator wants to justify downgrad this frame relating him about the hydron Edited October 20, 2019 by Famecans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Famecans said: yep and nop I am quoting against indications of this frame in some squads or missions, I played with saryn on a survival opening relic and the traces and drops were scattered across the map, not always the cause helps the squad honestly, saryn in hydron is not a bad thing, but a good thing, I think the topic creator wants to justify downgrad this frame relating him about the hydron Well, survival is always tricky because people can't stay in one room, so you can't really fault the saryn for that. But like every warframe, Saryn has a time and place, i'll say that yeah, Saryn, Equinox, Volt and banshee on low lvl maps can be counterproductive, especially for relic openings. I've been on maps where me and my brother killed so fast that enemies didn't have enough time to get corrupted by the fissure and we got to the end of 5 with 7 relics (we were also just chatting away, didn't notice that). But i'd argue that this is more of a fault in the game mode, that forces players to check themselves, instead of ensuring enough relics drop before the end of a phase. The same way i wouldn't take a wukong to a defense, i wouldn't take Saryn to a survival mission either, because she's too indiscriminate, and the life support drops will be away from the players, even more if you're playing with a Nekros on the squad, for example on Kuva survival Warframes all have their own niches, and Saryn is great for stuff like defenses (unless relic openings) and ESO, where you want to kill all the things as fast as possible. Of course there are other niche uses (like a melee build using her #3, and usually Atterax), or using her #2 to run fast. But she'll always be best used as a Nuker. So don't take her on missions where a Nuker won't be as effective. That's down to user error, not intrinsic issues with the frame. Edited October 20, 2019 by ReaverKane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xepthrichros Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) On 2019-10-19 at 10:26 PM, Gurpgork said: So if Saryn appeals to the pure grind group at the expense of the group that's here for the bonkers space ninja nonsense--and she is for reasons that myself and others have outlined in this thread--then we have a pretty serious problem on our hands. So a "bonkers space ninja nonsense" now has vague rules and expectations like how much each player should get to kill and interact and stuff. Talk about regulated space ninja bonkery. Interesting way of thinking. Rules in a mad world. Or you can just accept some people consider the spore spreading nuking as part of that bonkery and enjoy it. I am bored of the OPness and repetitiveness at times, of not just Saryn, just all warframes and their capabilities in general. But I am not going to demand things be nerfed to fit my taste. I do say the game can have more modes to cater to different tastes. There is a difference. One expands modes to cater to more people while the other offends people that like certain things just to exalt another group that likes something else. The latter position, is much more selfish, and it is the one which you all advocate. On 2019-10-19 at 9:16 PM, Teridax68 said: What exactly am I taking out of context, pray tell? I merely took what you said, and pointed out that you were invoking Warframe being a looter shooter, yet also deliciously forgetting that you were trying to excuse Saryn killing the shooter portion, as you were exclusively focusing on the looter aspect to the point of absurdity. Once again, I have to thank you for giving everyone on this thread the exact reason for why Saryn needs to change, which just so happens to defeat your entire line of efficiency-centric argumentation. Because that is the natural conclusion of your own statement. You don't seem to understand what taking things out of context actually entails, because I specifically took your statement in full context, and pointed out how badly it harms your argument, in this case by proving that the suggestion to force players into Recruiting chat just to avoid Saryn would be a horrible idea. Having others derive alternative conclusions from your claims isn't them taking anything out of context, it's you having your own clumsy, short-sighted, and self-defeating arguments get rightfully used against you, as your own conclusions do not even follow from the examples you're listing, a fact I also pointed out. In other words, you are doing an even better job of defeating your point than anyone else. And yet they do this, often to great success, because you can't just compartmentalize every problem to a specific game mode or enemy type. So long as Saryn doesn't get addressed, she will continue mass-murdering enemies before her teammates get a chance to do so, so unless you are proposing to give every enemy immunity to Spores (which would make Saryn feel absolutely horrible to play), that problem isn't going away by any other method. People legitimately make this request, though, and are rightfully laughed out the door when it's just players not parkouring as fast, because... well, what are you going to do about it? When it is players playing hallway hero, though, DE did in fact take action against this, by implementing Affinity range and changing enemy spawns to discourage players from splitting off. Thus, these efficiency-oriented players have in fact been catered to. People do in fact complain at length about how Limbo or even Volt grief people, accidentally or otherwise, via abilities that disrupt their regular gameplay. I myself am a big proponent of making those effects opt-in, rather than opt-out, to remediate that. Moreover, as a Trinity player, I am acutely aware of terrible players haranguing me because I didn't cast Blessing while they were dying on the other side of the tileset, or asking for EV while killing enemies before I can mark them, seemingly while having no issues actually playing the mission. In this particular case, unless you have established a covenant to play to some higher standard, the game is sufficiently easy enough that no-one needs to use their abilities, let alone to some pro degree, and nobody should enter a pug match expecting someone else to feed them utility, because that is the same kind of entitled mentality as the one driving Saryn players excusing how they make missions more boring for others, all because they just want more efficiency. If you're dawdling in a pub match and doing your own thing, sure, that's justified. If you're a low-MR player who may not even know what a bullet jump is, obviously not, and the player typing that out is a jerk. In both cases, though, extraction timers exist for a reason, so that problem is already mitigated. Overreaction to... which playstyle, exactly? I don't see why it would be anyone's business if my playstyle only affected how I played, but if my playstyle was actively detrimental to the enjoyment of others, e.g. if I decided to play some minimum-range Limbo and spam Banish all the time on my allies, then yeah, people would absolutely have the right to complain. I don't see the contradiction here. 1) Calm down. 2) Thank you for the captain obvious remarks about the shooter aspect. You have gotten this shooter aspect more than covered in all your rants so I saw no need to repeat it, and just focused on the looter and overly grinding aspects of this game and how nuker types mitigate these tedious aspects, which is a concept or mindset you keep trying to dismiss or demonize and make it seem that trying to speed up loot process is some kind of "obsession" or "disturbing" problem. When it really is not, and is a natural result of the RNG rates and high quantities of things to get. People see so much to do, they want to catch up. If it feels like its really taking too long to catch up and all the fast ways are nerfed to nonexistence, they just quit out of boredom of the repetition. 3) Also good job dissecting all the lines while missing the overall picture. If you quit being so needlessly argumentative you might get context, instead of picking at the minutia and totally missing the point of what is being said My point was to say that I will tell a person who hurries others up or criticizes them for not playing their skills optimally, to calm down, and that this game isn't some eSport trihard thing where you have to force random pub players to be as meta or as fast as you. And that works both ways. I will also tell people like yourself who wants everyone to slow down and play more, ahem, interactively, that not everyone wants to play this way, and you should just let everyone play the way they want. Some want to nuke (including radial). Let em. Some want to melee with the spin2win meme. Let em. Some want to shoot with amprex and ignis. Let em. Some want to use anything else I didn't list. Let em. Stop thinking your interactivity is superior and treating everyone who wants some kind of faster way as though they have "obsession" problems etc. Just as people who obsessed over speed and mock those who fail to measure up to their speed, they too should calm down. Sometimes you have a game where the nuker takes your kills. So what? The next game, if RNG provides, there won't be a nuker and you get your kills. This is the nature of public games. You just roll with whoever comes your way. Veterans like yourselves who have played for ages, have heard this exact thing being told to you before, and are still complaining about such fundamental basics of what to expect from a public game like a new player. The radial and AOE nuker concept has also been in this game for ages, and you all still keep making a fuss over it. Just accept this is how DE designs frames as it is probably how they see fit to differentiate how the frames work and vary from one other. Even Gauss is a radial nuker with thermal sunder. If everything is line of sight only, then its like Mesa reskins. If it's all elemental blade shots, then its Excalibur Exalted blade reskins. If they all become damage reduction or tanky platforms that just run around carrying guns, they are like Rhino and Inaros reskins. These are even more boring uniform experiences. As all frames are more or less the same except fashion option, tried one, tried them all. A discerning player will see they are all the same and not bother farming others after getting the one he or she likes visually. But this is also how you ensure nobody kills faster than the rest, cos the slightest AOE upperhand you give any one frame can make that go meta, and if anyone wants to avoid meta so badly, you gotta balance them to such a degree that they have no strong advantage over one or the other at all and just hope your visual flavors are good enough to fool players that these are different things. It is impossible to design a game with zero meta if you want your game to have differences between character classes and weapons and sense of leveling up and progression But since you really want to take issue with the public game setting, then offer ways to make it better. Matchmaking or more game modes can cater to different playstyles. You repeatedly dismiss these things. Or you say DE doesn't want to matchmake as it splits the player base. Or that DE makes modes that fails to differentiate playstyles. Well, ok then. How about you suggest modes for them that do differentiate playstyles. And instead of suddenly defending what they say about matchmaking, you actually advocate for a good matchmaking system - plus its funny you all whine and complain about all else like frame design and enemy design, and suddenly revert to supporting them in this area of matchmaking options. You might say player numbers too low to support such splitting up players. Then easy : during peak hours with most players, advanced match making systems take effect. During off hours like weekdays with less players in whichever region, advanced match making systems disabled. If you worry too many people might just filter out X or Y warframe, stop projecting, not as many people hate on whichever warframe you expect them to hate on, as you think they will. Personally, my matchmaking advanced options will forever be off and if that lands me in a game with 3 Limbos and myself as some other frame, will be fine for me - it's only one 5 minute game, not the whole next 10 hours that I am stuck with them. DE can respond to sufficient requests for nerfs or buffs as seen with Wukong etc. even when initially, for years they seemed to ignore him, or Vauban for that matter, and they reverted the Nekros and co. loot interaction nerfs despite attempting to bunker down on it for a few months, and so complaints can eventually change their previous positions on matchmaking or introduce better modes if people make enough noise about it. But instead of using that avenue for change that makes EVERYONE happy, radial nukers and non-nukers alike, through improvements in matchmaking or new game modes that cater to different playstyles. You just use your complaining powers to dictate how everything ought to be nerfed to fit your play style. So there's nothing more to say. You prove that all you care about is that you are right and want others to obey. Anyone who doesn't will receive some kind of label like griefer or troll, or is put down and mocked until they do not wish to engage in further discussion. That is all. Edited October 21, 2019 by Xepthrichros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeMonkey Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Xepthrichros said: Anyone who doesn't will receive some kind of label like griefer or troll, or is put down and mocked until they do not wish to engage in further discussion. That is all. Do you realise the irony of this stance given this post? This post, which isn't even aimed at anyone pro-nerf, is a snide diatribe meant to mock those who are. Something something he who casts the first stone something biblical quote. Edited October 21, 2019 by DeMonkey 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xepthrichros Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, DeMonkey said: Do you realise the irony of this stance given this post? This post, which isn't even aimed at anyone pro-nerf, is a snide diatribe meant to mock those who are. Something something he who casts the first stone something biblical quote. Your rebuttal just shows your biases or lack of attention paid to the discussion. This is your dude throwing stones first. I merely pointing out he did so. And you and your snarky remarks are not much better than his sensational terms to describe things like Volt or Saryn just using their abilities. Look at this language. What did he say? Trolls? And this one. Exaggerating by calling something "griefing" What's griefing is using a Loki to switch teleport a person off a cliff. Not just Volt or others doing their thing as intended. You people impose your views on others and then shut them down by saying we are griefing or trolling you and act like you are the victims. Edit: Or do you perhaps take issue with the word myopic? That's me calling a spade for what it is, a spade. When you have a view that accommodates or accepts only slower or interactive methods of killing enemies, i.e the method you pro-nerf people want, you all prefer ONE way of play. Whereas I have been saying, as well as others, that this game can have DIFFERENT or MORE than one way to play, in simple terms, fast and slow; or in many words, you can say melee-only, maim strikers, zaw polearm users, press 4 to winners, exalted blade slashers, amprex sprayers, whatever. And I add that we can have more modes to accommodate or facilitate that the different playstyles can find like-minded people more easily. One of these views is inherently more open-minded and less myopic than the other. If you cannot see it. You prove my point. Edited October 21, 2019 by Xepthrichros 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Kittens- Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) On 2019-10-02 at 12:05 PM, TehGrief said: she has huge area of effect damage spread while also having the same stats as a tank. That was kind of her deal since day one. Also the last three "caster" frames either have inifinite armor strip, infinite regen or infinite radial/linear death, or any combination thereof. (or one of those while having 99% DR). Edited October 21, 2019 by -Kittens- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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