saryn rework when?

[Teridax68]

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

1) Calm down.

The irony of this statement is delicious on multiple levels, not least because it precedes this breathless wall of text full of anger and frustration as you trip over your own mental gymnastics. As has already been pointed out, you are the one who needs to chill; meanwhile the response you quoted is itself visibly calm and measured, so really, this is projection pure and simple.

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2) Thank you for the captain obvious remarks about the shooter aspect. You have gotten this shooter aspect more than covered in all your rants so I saw no need to repeat it, and just focused on the looter and overly grinding aspects of this game and how nuker types mitigate these tedious aspects, which is a concept or mindset you keep trying to dismiss or demonize and make it seem that trying to speed up loot process is some kind of "obsession" or "disturbing" problem. When it really is not, and is a natural result of the RNG rates and high quantities of things to get. People see so much to do, they want to catch up. If it feels like its really taking too long to catch up and all the fast ways are nerfed to nonexistence, they just quit out of boredom of the repetition.

So first off, this has already been covered in the very post you are replying to, but just to reiterate: if you genuinely believe that the base game's looting and grinding aspects are not fun, when the game is a looter shooter, that needs to be fixed by making that grinding fun. Addressing tedious grinding via frames that trivialize the game doesn't make the game more fun for anyone, it just gives you a faster access to loot... and at that point, what is it worth if you're not enjoying the game? You keep crying about how I'm "demonizing" your mindset, when it clearly stands to reason that you are operating on a very unhealthy mentality, as you are forcing yourself to play through a game you clearly do not enjoy, and so through means that make you deal with as little of the game as possible. Not only that, you want to force that on everyone else as you do it, too. May I suggest taking a break?

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  3) Also good job dissecting all the lines while missing the overall picture. If you quit being so needlessly argumentative you might get context, instead of picking at the minutia and totally missing  the point of what is being said

And what point may that be, pray tell? Because so far the point is that Saryn is unhealthy for the game, and you are the one who went on tangents about how she is apparently the only way you can bear playing Warframe anymore.

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My point was to say that I will tell a person who hurries others up or criticizes them for not playing their skills optimally, to calm down, and that this game isn't some eSport trihard thing where you have to force random pub players to be as meta or as fast as you.

Glad to hear it! Incidentally, this is precisely why you have no right to force a playstyle upon others that removes their ability to interact with the game, all in the name of efficiency. Similarly, this also defeats your entire argument about how it is apparently essential for the game to have hyper-efficient frames that maximize looting efficiency at the cost of fun. Once more, you are defeating your own line of argumentation, to the point where you've unwittingly provided some of the best criticism against Saryn's current state on this thread. It's like I'm witnessing a Pokemon battle where the only move one side knows is to hurt itself in its confusion.

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And that works both ways. I will also tell people like yourself who wants  everyone to slow down and play more, ahem, interactively, that not everyone wants to play this way, and you should just let everyone play the way they want. Some want to nuke (including radial). Let em. Some want to melee with the spin2win meme. Let em. Some want to shoot with amprex and ignis. Let em. Some want to use anything else I didn't list. Let em. Stop thinking your interactivity is superior and treating everyone who wants some kind of faster way as though they have "obsession" problems etc. Just as people who obsessed over speed and mock those who fail to measure up to their speed, they too should calm down.

Except "let them" here implies having those people force their playstyle upon me by preventing me from playing the game as I'd like, i.e. by killing enemies in such a way that it is impossible for others to participate adequately (with Saryn and Maiming Strike Atteraxes, anyway, the rest aren't usually so overbearing). Thus, your false equivalence here doesn't work, and your entire rationale here is hypocritical. Incidentally, this is also why DE is nerfing Maiming Strike and spin2win melee strats, so I'm not simply talking out of my butt here.

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Sometimes you have a game where the nuker takes your kills. So what? The next game, if RNG provides, there won't be a nuker and you get your kills. This is the nature of public games. You just roll with whoever comes your way.

Okay, but this basically says that entering a game means you have a random chance of having your fun get screwed over. If missions in Warframe had a random chance of not spawning enemies at all, and instead having you walk to the objective or wait for whichever amount of time until the end, that would obviously not be seen as fun, so why do you think it is acceptable here?

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Veterans like yourselves who have played for ages, have heard this exact thing being told to you before, and are still complaining about such fundamental basics of what to expect from a public game like a new player. The radial and AOE nuker concept has also  been in this game for ages, and you all still keep making a fuss over it. Just accept this is how DE designs frames as it is probably how they see fit to differentiate how the frames work and vary from one other. Even Gauss is a radial nuker with thermal sunder.

Sure, which is once again why I'm not criticizing nuke frames as a whole, only the problematic ones. Gauss is obviously not creating problems even when going for a Thermal Sunder build, which is why people aren't criticizing that, but Saryn is, which is why people are.

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If everything is line of sight only, then its like Mesa reskins. If it's all elemental blade shots, then its Excalibur Exalted blade reskins. If they all become damage reduction or tanky platforms that just run around carrying guns, they are like Rhino and Inaros reskins. These are even more boring uniform experiences.

... to you. The fact that you would make such obviously wrong and sweeping statements raises doubts as to how qualified you even are to talk about Warframe, as with your previous nutty claims, if you genuinely are so incapable of telling the difference between vastly different frames such as Mesa, Ash, or Nidus, let alone between the likes of Rhino and Nezha, or Excalibur and... well, anyone else really.

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As all frames are more or less the same except fashion option, tried one, tried them all. A discerning player will see they are all the same and not bother farming others after getting the one he or she likes visually.

This is perhaps the most galaxy-brained statement I've seen on this thread so far. I don't see how anyone can take you seriously after this.

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 But this is also how you ensure nobody kills faster than the rest, cos the slightest AOE upperhand you give any one frame can make that go meta, and if anyone wants to avoid meta so badly, you gotta balance them to such a degree that they have no strong advantage over one or the other at all and just hope your visual flavors are good enough to fool players that these are different things. It is impossible to design a game with zero meta if you want your game to have differences between character classes and weapons and sense of leveling up and progression

But I'm not opposing the emergence of a meta here, I just don't want the game's meta to be based around frames that strip missions of interaction for anyone else.

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But since you really want to take issue with the public game setting, then offer ways to make it better. Matchmaking or more game modes can cater to different playstyles. You repeatedly dismiss these things.

Yes, because none of those actually address the problem at hand. I have in fact proposed changes to Saryn, by the way, so just because I'm not following your obvious attempts at distracting from the real issue doesn't mean I haven't offered solutions.

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Or you say DE doesn't want to matchmake as it splits the player base. Or that DE makes modes that fails to differentiate playstyles. Well, ok then. How about you suggest modes for them that do differentiate playstyles.

Sure! I think DE could have many more missions that rely on stealthy play, i.e. with real consequences for triggering alarms, or more treasure-hunting missions or the like, because most of DE's recent content focuses on horde mode-style combat. Problem is, those mission types are not going to fix the issue being discussed.

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And instead of suddenly defending what they say about matchmaking, you actually advocate for a good matchmaking system - plus its funny you all whine and complain about all else like frame design and enemy design, and suddenly revert to supporting them in this area of matchmaking options.

... how am I defending either, exactly? Also, again, how is a good matchmaking system going to help the problem being discussed?

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You might say player numbers too low to support such splitting up players. Then easy : during peak hours with most players, advanced match making systems take effect. During off hours like weekdays with less players in whichever region, advanced match making systems disabled.

... why are we discussing such a convoluted and technically complex systemic change for the sake of a single problem frame?

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If you worry too many people might just filter out X or Y warframe, stop projecting, not as many people hate on whichever warframe you expect them to hate on, as you think they will. Personally, my matchmaking advanced options will forever be off and if that lands me in a game with 3 Limbos and myself as some other frame, will be fine for me - it's only one 5 minute game, not the whole next 10 hours that I am stuck with them.

How is this argument in any way convincing? You're literally arguing off of your own opinion here.

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 DE can respond to sufficient requests for nerfs or buffs as seen with Wukong etc. even when initially, for years they seemed to ignore him, or Vauban for that matter, and they reverted the Nekros and co. loot interaction nerfs despite attempting to bunker down on it for a few months, and so complaints can eventually change their previous positions on matchmaking or introduce better modes if people make enough noise about it. 

Or just rework the frame, as happened with Nekros, as happened with Wukong, and as will happen soon with Vauban. You're not helping your case here, and people have already made enough noise for Pablo himself apparently to express a desire to revisit her.

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But instead of using that avenue for change that makes EVERYONE happy, radial nukers and non-nukers alike, through improvements in matchmaking or new game modes that cater to different playstyles. You just use your complaining powers to dictate how everything ought to be nerfed to fit your play style. 

Because no amount of matchmaking is going to make everyone happy when the problem comes down to denying other players the ability to engage in combat, in a game centered around combat. Just because you can split the playerbase along a minority who enjoy hogging all the kills, and a much larger group of people who don't think that's fair or fun, does not mean the solution lies in some imaginary middle ground. Again, you and a handful of others keep arguing on this fake sense of fairness, when the plain reality of the situation is that people are complaining about Saryn precisely because the way she plays isn't fair to others. It's the reason why I pointed out how there are so many easymode frames out there that don't need to trivialize the game for anyone else but themselves. Thus, what I am proposing, i.e. to make Saryn an efficient, easymode frame that doesn't just deny everyone else the ability to play, is the compromise already, and it is your opposition to it that is selfish.

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 So there's nothing more to say. You prove that all you care about is that you are right and want others to obey. Anyone who doesn't will receive some kind of label like griefer or troll, or is put down and mocked until they do not wish to engage in further discussion. That is all.

But there is plenty more to say, it's just not what you personally want to talk about: the ways of changing Saryn are potentially infinite, and while I did propose a way of changing her, my way is by no means the One True Way, and there are likely many more suggestions to be made that could potentially capture her current playstyle even better while making her healthy to play with. The simple fact of the matter is that you are trying to shut everyone else on this thread up, simply because you can't accept the basic fact that Saryn has to change at all, which makes your accusations of anyone else trying to silence you both hypocritical and yet another case of projection. In many ways, it's like a far, far more low-stakes version of people at a summit discussing potential strategies for reducing pollution, only for a guy to jump in and start yelling that climate change isn't real. You are that guy, and if you really don't want this discussion to continue, you can go find some other thread to infect, instead of bumping this one up constantly.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Teridax68

[DeMonkey]

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Your rebuttal just shows your biases or lack of attention paid to the discussion

Let's see how much you were paying?

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Look at this language. What did he say? Trolls? And this one. Exaggerating by calling something "griefing"

One of those was on Wednesday at 9am, one of those was on Thursday.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both those come after Wednesday 4am, which is where I pulled your quote from.

Guess you must be a time traveller or something, or perhaps you're just mistaken saying...

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

This is your dude throwing stones first.

Le gasp, maybe its timezones? That must be it.

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

And you and your snarky remarks

Wasn't even that snarky. Makes your "you guys pretend to be the victim" comment kind of amazing.

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Or do you perhaps take issue with the word myopic?

If I did I'd have quoted it, mad as that may seem.

You've done the very thing you're accusing us of, throwing stones and insults and crying foul when something is said back. You aren't a victim, and Teridax is certainly not an instigator.

[Teridax68]

Not to kick someone when they're down, but seeing how this one bit of discussion apparently includes me as well:

6 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Your rebuttal just shows your biases or lack of attention paid to the discussion. This is your dude throwing stones first. I merely pointing out he did so. And you and your snarky remarks are not much better than his sensational terms to describe things like Volt or Saryn just using their abilities. 

Look at this language. What did he say? Trolls? And this one. Exaggerating by calling something "griefing"

So as DeMonkey has pointed out, literally both posts of mine you are quoting were made after yours that was quoted. You have effectively managed to fail at basic chronology, all while accusing your interlocutor of not paying attention. The fact that you managed to produce such a blisteringly stupid post demonstrates just how little your word is worth, and the fact that you've received a lone applause emote for it demonstrates just how desperate and sycophantic you and the one remaining Saryn defender on this thread need to be towards each other just to create even the barest illusion of credibility. This is beyond pathetic.

 

[Pizzarugi]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Because no amount of matchmaking is going to make everyone happy when the problem comes down to denying other players the ability to engage in combat, in a game centered around combat.

To be a little fair to Xep here, while I am totally in favor of balancing Saryn so she isn't trivializing the game as opposed to him, I am also in favor of some sort of matchmaking improvement in the form of weapon/frame blacklisting. If you have a certain weapon (ex. Atterax) or a certain frame (ex. Saryn) added onto the blacklist, you can't join teams that have them nor can people join yours if you're the host and they have them.

You can argue that this would just be a bandaid fix to address the real problem like Atterax or Saryn destroying everything around them, and I would totally agree that it is, but this isn't the only time we've had broken metas in the game. In the past, we had things like Mirage Spamulor, Limbo Cataclysm nuke (which got nerfed much quicker than Saryn, funny enough), and cruise control Ember's World on Fire before that got nerfed. This would be an evolving bandaid fix for any and all future nuke metas until DE actually does something about them.

[Teridax68]

Just now, Pizzarugi said:

You can argue that this would just be a bandaid fix to address the real problem like Atterax or Saryn destroying everything around them, and I would totally agree that it is, but this isn't the only time we've had broken metas in the game. In the past, we had things like Mirage Spamulor, Limbo Cataclysm nuke (which got nerfed much quicker than Saryn, funny enough), and cruise control Ember's World on Fire before that got nerfed. This would be an evolving bandaid fix for any and all future nuke metas until DE actually does something about them.

This I can agree a bit more with, assuming we're acknowledging that this is a bandaid measure in a state where the developers have the genuine intent to fix problem frames and weapons (and who knows, if they collect blacklist data that could help direct attention). I would not ever want this to replace proper developer balance and design work, as this wouldn't solve the problems it'd try to alleviate, and in the worst case it may even lead to developer complacency if this kind of stopgap measure gets perceived as a genuine solution.

[Andele3025]

6 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You can argue that this would just be a bandaid fix to address the real problem like Atterax or Saryn destroying everything around them,

Neither of these are problems in the first place. If you want to fix a problem, fix rivens, then zaws and kitguns, then some of the recent prime weapons, then armor scaling/scaling mechanics in general, then boss design (since equip melee being killed for quick melee+ is already being fixed and having the game be unplayable in the first place for 1/4th of the options is the biggest issue a game can have short of being anthem/made by a house under EAs thumb).

[Pizzarugi]

29 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Neither of these are problems in the first place.

I'm sorry, how are frames and a weapon that can easily abuse Maiming Strike + Blood Rush combo to delete rooms of enemies and leaving nothing for teammates to do not problems?

29 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

If you want to fix a problem, fix rivens, then zaws and kitguns, then some of the recent prime weapons, then armor scaling/scaling mechanics in general, then boss design

This just seems like deflection. Most weapons aren't capable of doing what a spin2win Atterax or press-spore/4-to-win Saryn can do barring maybe things like other long-range melee weapons, Ignis, and Amprex. How would "fixing" rivens solve the problem besides maybe making weapons less capable of 1shotting bosses? Same question can be posed to Zaws and Kitguns. Catchmoon is OP, but it doesn't trivialize the game for anyone but the person using them unlike Saryn or Atterax mains who trivialize the game for everyone.

And in case it gets brought up, I know these features are power creep in nature. However, as I've said a page back in this thread, Saryn is much higher on the list of priorities that need to be addressed first.

And I've asked this before to someone else a long time ago, but how would armor scaling fixes solve the problem of people abusing Saryn to nuke the game? People aren't running Saryn or Atterax spin2win builds to bypass armor scaling, they're doing it to bypass grind. In fact, if anything, addressing scaling mechanics would only make these weapons and frames more desirable as enemies are now far easier to remove from the game.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'm sorry, how are frames and a weapon that can easily abuse Maiming Strike + Blood Rush combo to delete rooms of enemies and leaving nothing for teammates to do not problems?

Because you can enter 2 rooms to the left and obliterate your own room, saryn isnt even the fastest at it nor with the highest dps and same for meme strike. I will 100% agree that both meme spin2win and a long duration or spamming 4 to reapply Saryn certainly are the simplest and the 2nd (maybe 3rd, depends on how you interpret equinox) most lazy version of it respectively, but not actually a mathematical problem. You could cut Saryns base damage down to 1/3rd and it would be the same thing as the big good parts of her kit are armor strip, viral and enemy based radius instead of player-to-enemy-los. All parts that really shouldnt be touched. You could also reduce her growth rate, but that would require also buffing/reducing the decay rate.

5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

This just seems like deflection. Most weapons aren't capable of doing what a spin2win Atterax or press-spore/4-to-win Saryn can do barring maybe things like other long-range melee weapons, Ignis, and Amprex. How would "fixing" rivens solve the problem besides maybe making weapons less capable of 1shotting bosses? Same question can be posed to Zaws and Kitguns. Catchmoon is OP, but it doesn't trivialize the game for anyone but the person using them unlike Saryn or Atterax mains who trivialize the game for everyone.

Ignis and Amprex also arent problems In fact the first one is (well till fire starts stripping armor) a bad weapon to do damage. Fixing rivens by not making them gacha lootbox S#&$ would for 1 remove a massive greed and A******/scamming market from the game and more than that actually allow a proper balance curve on the weapons themselves.
And yes both Zaws having prior top of the line BIS sup stats but with usually 100% more base range, a free arcane slot and higher than the weapon types base damage and kitguns having more than 30% higher minimum damage than their equivalent prior BIS would improve the game, because it would mean both a non-spiked balance curve and actual variety.
Again move 2 rooms to the side, new enemies spawned. Its a #*!%ing coop shooter where over half of the game modes are timer based and there is no kill based reward weighting. If you are so annoyed by 1 character killing things, wiki the spawn mechanics, move 2 rooms to the side and there you have your own out of range of the "fun stealer" enemy spawns from 3/4 of the nearby doors.

5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

And in case it gets brought up, I know these features are power creep in nature. However, as I've said a page back in this thread, Saryn is much higher on the list of priorities that need to be addressed first.

And I've asked this before to someone else a long time ago, but how would armor scaling fixes solve the problem of people abusing Saryn to nuke the game? People aren't running Saryn or Atterax spin2win builds to bypass armor scaling, they're doing it to bypass grind. In fact, if anything, addressing scaling mechanics would only make these weapons and frames more desirable as enemies are now far easier to remove from the game.

The only grind you can bypass by doing mass AOE is clan pigment farming (possibly ghoul scan/lore and equivalent side trivialities, but thats a completionist goal not anything with a reward structure). Bosses are single target (and usually immune), all but exterminate and defense dont require kills or require 1-4 split kills per phase/rotation/mission and on both exterminate and defense you cant aoe nuke to finish it faster because of limited spawn slots/it being set up in waves.
The only thing that can be concluded from you thinking that rivens, kitguns, zaws, scaling, boss design, etc arent bigger issues is that you think all aoe is bad and that you can killsteal/work on CoD mentality from 2008 or whenever gray-brown-yellow-spunkgargleweewee console pvp shooters were popular.

[Klokwerkaos]

17 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Your rebuttal just shows your biases or lack of attention paid to the discussion. This is your dude throwing stones first. I merely pointing out he did so. And you and your snarky remarks are not much better than his sensational terms to describe things like Volt or Saryn just using their abilities. 

Look at this language. What did he say? Trolls? And this one. Exaggerating by calling something "griefing"

What's griefing is using a Loki to switch teleport a person off a cliff. Not just Volt or others doing their thing as intended. 

You people impose your views on others and then shut them down by saying we are griefing or trolling you and act like you are the victims. 

 

Edit: Or do you perhaps take issue with the word myopic? That's me calling a spade for what it is, a spade. When you have a view that accommodates or accepts only slower or interactive methods of killing enemies, i.e the method you pro-nerf people want, you all prefer ONE way of play. Whereas I have been saying, as well as others, that this game can have DIFFERENT or MORE than one way to play, in simple terms, fast and slow; or in many words, you can say melee-only, maim strikers, zaw polearm users, press 4 to winners, exalted blade slashers, amprex sprayers, whatever. And I add that we can have more modes to accommodate or facilitate that the different playstyles can find like-minded people more easily. 

One of these views is inherently more open-minded and less myopic than the other. If you cannot see it. You prove my point.

I might recommend not engaging with him.

dude is more concerned about being right and tearing down anything he doesn't agree with.  scroll through thread to see non stop examples.

facts are, the game is designed for solo and team play, because both have advantages and disadvantages and no matter how much de smashes the nerf hammer someone will always be better than someone else and someone else won't like it and will demand that they be catered to because the internet is full of entitled people with over inflated self importance.  

Players have options that I've spelled out at least a dozen times in this thread, and if they refuse to take them, that's them failing to take adult personal responsibility for their own good time, and thus I have no sympathy for them.

for example, you know what's annoying to me?  not saryn.  what is annoying to me is undergeared people taking the full minute with me on extract and not being able to bullet jump through the relic mission that they already have cleared and simply need to vacuum up their drops and get to the extract.

you know what else is annoying?  people leaving arbs at 30 min because they can't hang, thereby decreasing my vitus drops, or worse, dying in the first five minutes and expecting me to rez them a dozen times and then guard them while they extract and I pray host migration doesn't rob me.

should we lobby ban these players, or maybe force them to succeed with dev magic?  nope, because that's what I agreed to when I signed on to a pug.  they are actively inhibiting my enjoyment by their thing that that they do that I find annoying, but I am not screeching for the game to be changed, because we all get to enjoy the game as best we are able given our circumstances.  but on the other side of the fence, what kind of behavior do we keep seeing over and over?  this is why I say don't engage, not worth your time to argue with some people.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

dude is more concerned about being right

Would be wonderful if some other people tried it some time.

Edited October 22, 2019 by DeMonkey
5am posting

[Klokwerkaos]

26 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Would be wonderful is some other people tried it some time.

@Xepthrichros see what I"m saying?  doesn't address any points I made, just trollin.  not worth it.

[Famecans]

On 10/2/2019 at 2:24 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

I dont ever in the history of warframe was a frame reworked for being too powerful. Therefore, it make no sense for saryn to be the first. 

Is she strong? Yes. But, her strength is conditional on tileset locations. As for hydron missions and the like, if you’re at hydron its to level. I fail to see the issue with saryn giving you free xp hella quickly when the whole point is ti get xp. 

wukong

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Famecans said:

wukong

Mesa, Mag.

[selig_fay]

NEZHA!

[Xepthrichros]

5 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

i would totally support their call for tools to make it so they have the option not to play with people they don't like if they didn't have them... and I do advocate for better match making so everyone is happier... but that's not enough, if they can't have the ball then no one can play!

Exactly this. They can vilify and act like we are making their life miserable. But I will also support if they come up with ways to allow EVERYONE, fast and slow players, nukers, etc. alike to have fun. Not exalt one at the expense of the other.

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think the solution should be to simply have the damage stop at 1 health, so that Saryn either has to use her other nuke (which would kill everyone still), or her allies would have to kill the severely weakened enemies, in order for the mass killing to happen. In other cases, like Equinox's Maim, I think the more appropriate solution would be to no longer make the damage aura always-on, but instead have the frame generate a resource that they can then expend for powerful radial damage at the right time, something Equinox already does via her 4's accumulated resource and explosion.

And I have suggested this very notion in my "difficulty slider" post I made elsewhere which I have linked to you to read. So you  scold me for not reading or whatever and you do likewise. Here is what I said previously, for your convenience. Adding another bolded section to make sure you see it this time. This will not only solve your issues with Saryn, but probably radial nukers in general. 

Spoiler

Difficult Mode: Enemies buffed. They get slightly higher fire rate. More armor or shields. And take innate 20% less damage from nuking abilities, and 10% less CC duration from CC effects. Enemies will always survive an initial ability cast. I.e. if fodder Hydron unit is hit by Saryn's spores, their health drops to 1, and to be finished off, has to be hit by a second ability cast such as Miasma or another player's ability, maybe, Pull from Mag, or just a bullet or slash from a zaw. Animals in conservation are more sensitive and alert, they detect you more easily. Fish swim faster. Skateboard race time duration lower.  More nullies spawn. More energy leech eximus spawn. Arc trap radius on grineer tilesets increased.  Enemy vision detection range increased. Hacking time stricter. I can see certain forum mains using Difficult Mode on Hydron just from all the times I read people complaining of 4-to-win in fodder farming tilesets.  For the trouble of playing in difficult mode... Chance of good loot increased, including better drop chances for the relics of the current Prime Access, or relics containing items from the Vault unsealed. Increased chance for Ephemeras and other rare things by 1 or 2% from their current chance.

Also, as for that whole insults, slander, bla bla bla. I need not say much except that you show you are not chill. If you were chill, you'd have seen how my previous suggestion and yours are almost the same and all the other mess would be easily avoided. You can go ahead and look below for the original post, and it was Edited September 22 by Xepthrichros. 1 month ago. Had you read it with a calm mind, you'd see how we actually agreed on this aspect, just in a different approach. You asked for nerfs, which is blanket change of Saryn through the whole game, which might upset people that don't like it. Meanwhile, I confined this change to a difficulty setting, so that if people don't like the change, they can avoid it by playing a lower difficulty setting.

 

[Pizzarugi]

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Ah yes, how biased of me to enjoy being able to engage in combat in a looter shooter.

It's strange how often this one little bit of text here keeps getting missed in every argument suggesting something should be done about Saryn. Goodness forbid someone wants to do more than play Roomba Simulator as they hoover resources from start to finish, because a teammate is mindlessly spamming 1-2 buttons to remove any semblance of challenge from the game.

And now DE finally came out and said they will be looking at Saryn. Took too long compared to how quickly they've addressed broken frames and combos in the past, but I'm glad they're finally going to confront the issue. I hope that when they look at Saryn, they consider the other radial nuke frames and why people abuse them, and possibly slap on a LoS and/or range limitation so people don't just hop from her to one of them and continue pressing their "I win" button.

Then it'll just leave Mesa, and I think they'll have a harder time figuring out how to tackle that one.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[KIREEK]

After reading the 1st post, i can say OP is correct about 1 thing and that's onslaught, everything else and this is merely a repeat of the ember changes that made her so unenjoyable players stopped playing with her.

Saryn is indeed the best in onslaught, everything else OP mentioned, like defenses and missions that have some sort of progression (like captures) the abilities aren't fenomenal, players using other warframes can achieve and surpass any saryn, provided the proper effort is placed into said gameplay.

This feels exaclty as before, better players using ember (that react quicker, use the minimap to it's full extent, know the tilesets to a good degree, use weapons as an aid to abilities among other things like sentinels) were essentially acused of being better only because of ember, this topic is a fine representation that some players simply do not wish to improve and will instead moan so that better players are brought back to their level.

It won't happen, even the best limbos or vaubans will always surpass the casual saryn player, nerfing her affects you and you alone, other players will still be faster and loot more than you, like it or not, it has been like this for years and will remain to be like that.

Players that are THAT lazy should simply realize a basic concept, the player makes the warframe, not the other way around, a saryn in my team does not stop me from doing way more kills than that, but that's because i don't stare at the ground.

A change to saryn will happen most likely, but those lazy players will remain at the same level and will have no other way but to either improve or pick another frame to request a nerf.

The cycle continues, but lost causes will remain to be lost causes (i'm refering to players here)

Edited October 22, 2019 by KIREEK

[Andele3025]

20 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

I'm curious how you feel about the eidolon meta where you can't even join a team if you don't have the right frame. Should we nerf chroma/volt too so other frames can be used in eidolons?

Id rather see eidolons not be bulldropping fights/extensions of the operator gimmick that ignore parts of the game rules. Having to swap around elements or use potato kids to reset damage is one thing (even if the current sentient pool is low with common auto resist marks instead of actually scaling off damage taken naturally like e.g. rank 0 adaptation put on said enemies would), but for some cursed reason it seems like noone in DE can bother to just steal bosses (or at lead the mechanic idea equivalents) from DMC, Bayonetta, God of War, Darksiders, MGR (think how damn awesome sundowner and monsoon would be in WF) or hell even Dark souls (well 3, as it both doesnt have 2 narrative gimmick encounters and the actual bosses are dumbed down enough to the point that a straight port to WF would work). You can even see how there maybe even is 1 person who wants to fix and gets released every 3 years for 5 hours with first Regor (leaves area, you have something to do when that happens even if the manics are derp ai, threat in arena), Kela (also leaves instead of going invul, you have something to do even if the little locks are derpy, environment threats and can threaten you tho isnt balanced for multiplayer both due to low hp and pocket rockets being able to accidentally lose lockon from their target and all hit 1 person instead) and the recent Zealot (stuff to do, clear phases and visual indicators for everything, can threaten and has no multiplayer derp, tho sadly all other infested are left invul instead of being a flood of respawns thus failing at the "do something during invul phase" if not doing solo).
 

There are myriad ways (flat+% DR, damage instance DR, selective hitcaps, weapon-check-based DR, range based DR, etc) to make a enemy take little damage without invul phases and specific trait gates. Or at least give normal weapons a 10% void damage mod that hits the shields and make non-synovia body parts take damage but with 99.95% DR. IDC if it takes the entire night id like to take my big sharp stick or #*!%off bandit thor hammer and slam that monster into the ground.

TLDR: Eidolon meta exists because of shortsighted boss design trying to avoid prior meta and add gimmicks.

[Cibyllae]

58 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

TLDR: Eidolon meta exists because of shortsighted boss design trying to avoid prior meta and add gimmicks

So we should fix the content not the frames?

[Andele3025]

34 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

So we should fix the content not the frames?

When it comes to boss fights (and some mission types), yes. When it comes to the topic at hand, as far as i care DE is free to cut saryns 1 and 4 damage to 1/3rd (as in by 66%) as nothing will really change/people that whine about killsteals will continue to do so even if the timer to kill a spored enemy goes from 1 minute mission ramp+3-6 seconds of spores ticking on the target to 1 min ramp+above 10s time of enemy living since spore infection as they are crying about a non-issue or at worst about the fact that the decision of what stat influences what part of saryns abilities allows for her to have a low effort/lazy build; hell i welcome a damage nerf if it means her 4 can stun all enemies again without running 40% duration or if they turn her 3 into a channeled ability.

[selig_fay]

3 часа назад, Cibyllae сказал:

Should we nerf chroma/volt too so other frames can be used in eidolons?

Chroma already received its nerf when issued first Eidolon.

You can use Mutalist Quanta and Odonata instead of volts. 

Chroma is not the only frame that increases damage. Ivara can also kill a limb.

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by zhellon

[Cibyllae]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

Chroma already received its nerf when issued first Eidolon.

So you you're saying Chroma/Volt should be allowed to push other frames out of the eidolon meta and retain their place as the only viable options for the eidolon meta, and not get nerfed, because Chroma already had a nerf?

 

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

I'm curious how you feel about the eidolon meta where you can't even join a team if you don't have the right frame. Should we nerf chroma/volt too so other frames can be used in eidolons?

im against any meta that stifles diversity in what you can bring to a fight. when i do any eido hunting i take rev. the eido fights are poorly designed imo. it already pushes out a numerous amount of guns and completely restricts frame power usage to frames that buff weapon damage.

 

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I don't understand your obsession with Chroma because he's not the only frame capable of killing limbs in 1 shot.

this is true. ive seen ivara do it quite easily.

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, Azrael_V said:

Pure BS next to the suggestion that Spores should leave the enemies at 1 health. Like what levels are you guys playing at? Seriously I would like to know. 

I mean its objectively a fact that you could cut Saryn base damage as much as you want short of making it 0, it wouldnt stop people from whining about her because its not a Saryn issue, but a personal problem with the people that will cry as any player on a mission where Saryn can do anything will hit some 1k scaling damage and at that point 12 spores will do the job eventually thus do the "muh killsteals". And as said since i use saryn for melee+aoe stun+viral and toxin for free on enemies if a damage nerf means bugfixes its gonna be a net positive.