saryn rework when?

[Klokwerkaos]

7 hours ago, toxic_degenerate said:

im gonna make this very basic so you can understand me here okay?

ME, WANT TO, SHOOT, BAD GUY

SHOOTING, BAD GUY , FEELS GOOD MAN

ME, NO LIKE, SARYN, CUS , SHE MAKE, SHOOTING, BAD GUY, POINTLESS

(also this game dont need "maximum effort" lmao unless ur doing a solo 3 hour MOT survival run)

simple, don't play with a saryn then.  how hard is that?  I can form a premade whenever I don't want to play with casuals, why can't casuals be asked to put in the same 10 seconds worth of effort, or should we cater to their every whims until the game pulls itself apart?

[Klokwerkaos]

4 hours ago, Ramflare said:

Saryn doesn't need a nerf, I think the real problem is there are so few reliable top tier dps options. Make Mag's 3 & 4 scale better, buff all of the low tier casters and dps abilities. At the moment if you want to deal the most damage at the highest levels it's saryn, memeing strike whips and maybe equinox/volt. Warframe has so much variety until you want to do something that actually requires some punch. Once all the frames are on a level-ish playing field DE might be able to actually make some appropriate changes to enemy scaling, etc...

actually top dps is usually going to be gara, but that's besides the point.  also melee nuke is more powerful than any single warframe.  to outdo it, if you invest in it properly, you need a fully coordinated squad.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

The fact that people gravitate to the most efficient way to kill enemies as fast as possible doesn't mean that they prefer it or even like it.

I'm staying out of the Saryn conversation as I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on her specifically and it does seem to me there's some bigger problems that make it hard to sort out what is wrong with any individual frame--but I think that's an astute general observation.

How many of the people "gravitating" toward efficiency are only doing so because it's their best chance of getting a few kills in squads that are likely going to include at least one mass deletion frame?  How many more people gravitate the other way because of these frames: toward leeching and passive play?  There's all kinds of smaller side-effects related to the apparent popularity of these frames, none of them seeming to me very good for long term engagement with the game.

 

[Alvengerz]

On 2019-10-02 at 11:38 PM, agentkido said:

its not even fun to run around hydron leveling anymore

eh... whenever i want to go to hydron, or Onslaught, it is mainly for gathering affinity. So if i see someone bringing Saryn to the mission and just nuke the place down, I'll just thank that person at the end of the mission. I only often see Saryn on Hydron and Regular/Elite Sanctuary Onslaught tho.

I believe Saryn was designed to be AoE damage dealing warframe. So if you don't like or don't want to be near that warframe, just leave the mission. Saryn is strong yes, but not so much for saying Saryn is overpowered. I would say Saryn can be very powerful with good squad composition.

If your reason for saying Saryn is over powered is because she steals your prey, well, be a Saryn yourself so that you can steal it back. 😄 But, If you want to make "co-op squad" matters, the recruitment chat is there in the game for you.

As for the rework, i think Saryn is alright as it is now. Any other AoE damage dealing can out-damage Saryn. Gara is one of them.

[Teridax68]

15 hours ago, Aesthier said:

I never said she wasn't designed for group play. Please show me the reference for that. She actually works quite well in groups.

That's easy:

18 hours ago, Aesthier said:

I think that the disconnect is that you believe that Warframe was made only for people who group when it was actually made from the very beginning to support play for both types of players those who like to group and those who like to solo.

This was, by the way, in response to me saying that because Warframe is a multiplayer game, its frames need to be designed not to harm their teammates' experience, so it stands to reason that you were trying to excuse her multiplayer problems by arguing that she wasn't designed for group play. Backtracking here does nothing to hide the fact that you've both implicitly acknowledged and tried to excuse her ability to deny her allies a core part of Warframe's gameplay.

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Again Saryn can work quite well in groups however the reason I brought in the differences in soloplay and group play is because you are "demanding" that a change be made that will effect all those who use her for good or bad when other less intrusive alternatives exist.

Less intrusive for you, perhaps, but far more obtrusive for everyone else. Again, your reasoning applies to any rework, yet those reworks have happened, even when the intent was purely to fix a frame's impact in group play.

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See below:

Frames with radial nuke problems are not literally all nuke frames, unless that's how you are personally defining nuke frames, in which case for sure they should all be reworked. It feels like you're trying to quote mine me here more than make any sort of cogent point, as the quote you pulled visibly does not support your accusation.

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So far I am seeing only a vocal few that have problems with Saryn. How many people in this thread think  she is fine compared to how many are complaining that she isn't?  Are threads representative of the entire populace? Where does that line lay?  I believe only DE knows but I also think you are falling prey to the idea that your opinions are the opinions of the majority. But that is an entirely different argument altogether.

Perhaps I am, but my opinion is supported by the fact that there is a majority of people here who are in fact criticizing Saryn, despite the attempts by a minority as vocal as they are tiny to clog up this thread with white knighting. Moreover, as a quick search should indicate, this is by no means the only thread criticizing Saryn, and the result are the same with entirely different samples of people, and so across every Warframe-themed discussion space. If DE thinks differently, I'd be interested as to where they'd be getting their information from, and even more so as to how you'd know DE's opinion any better than me.

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Take a good look at what you just stated because I want you to recognize the falsehood in it. Everyone but me gets inconvenienced? I would logicaly guess that those players who said in this very thread that they think she is fine would not be inconvenienced. Nor would those that enjoy her playstyle as it currently is.

Please. For all this verbiage, all you're saying is that the people who wouldn't like Saryn getting changed are those who don't want Saryn to change. That's neither contradictory to my statement, nor profound in any respect.

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On top of that to make the change DE would be inconvenienced as it would take more time from the other items they are working on.

Sure, perhaps it would take a little more effort, but the tradeoff would be a tangible improvement to game health, and less noise on the forums thanks to Saryn no longer being annoying to play with. This too is an absolutely pathetic argument to make, particularly as it could apply to literally any request for change, and is never a good reason on its own to avoid making said change.

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  Any change will inconvenience someone or even some population it is just the way it is. However when offered alternative solutions that might minimize the populations inconvenienced by any change you simply dismiss them.

... because the solutions you proposed are themselves massively inconvenient, far more so than the ones I suggested. Again, you are literally asking anyone who dislikes Warframe turning into a walking simulator because of Saryn to exclusively use Recruiting chat prior to every mission just to find like-minded people who promise not to pick Saryn: if you genuinely don't see how bad an idea that is, you clearly haven't played Warframe recently enough to remember how quick it is to enter missions, much less to discuss the finer points of its design.

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I agree with you on the point that forcing players into recruiting chat is a sub-optimal solution however as I mentioned earlier you could suggest for better grouping tools to be implemented to get away from using recruiting chat. However you apparently feel that suggestion is crap as it was one of the three you took offense to below:

Yes, it is crap, because while improved grouping tools would improve the experience of people grouping for things actually worth grouping for, it would not prevent the fact that forcing players into those optimized grouping tools for the sole purpose of avoiding Saryn would still massively slow down the rate at which they'd be able to play the game, which is itself an equally massive inconvenience. You are talking nonsense, and you know this.

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Really?  You don't see the irony in this at all? I actually enjoy how Saryn plays and I see and enjoy the benefits of being in groups alongside her so yes I would be inconvenienced by having her nerfed or even changed yet again especially when there are other items in the game that need more work and effect a larger populace.

Who says I want to make her play worse in groups? You are completely making things up at this point, and inventing a fake moral high ground to try to justify what is ultimately a very selfish desire to resist change to a notoriously unhealthy warframe. The only irony I see here is you now pleading for me to empathize with you when you have continued to show complete callousness towards everyone else here but yourself.

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On your part you want her changed because you find her too powerful

Except I don't want to change Saryn because I think she's too powerful, I want to change her because her design is unhealthy. You apparently cannot make the difference between the two, which is perhaps why you're being so defensive about any possible change to her, without any specifics even needing to be mentioned.

 

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and want her changed so you can avoid putting forth the effort of adapting and playing to her strengths in a group.

Adapting to what, her ability to turn my mission into a walking simulator? How exactly does one "adapt" to that, pray tell? Why am I even supposed to be competing with a teammate for the ability to enjoy the game? Once again, you are employing the merest trappings of oft-used expressions without any comprehension of what those words actually mean, to the extent where you argument makes no sense when examined critically.

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Ok. This point I think I finally understand what you are trying to say. You are not saying that one style of play holds anymore weight than the other. All you are saying is that frames should be balanced around both multiplayer and solo and that you feel Saryn is not balanced in multiplayer.

Is this correct?

I'm not even talking about balance, though. I don't care about the finer points of balance in Warframe, because Warframe has never been an even remotely balanced game, and frames have managed to successfully coexist despite vast differences in power. I don't care if Saryn is "too powerful", all I care about is whether a warframe is healthy, i.e. if they are a) fun to play, b) fun to play with, and c) able to contribute towards a more diverse and enjoyable metagame. Saryn in particular satisfies conditions a) and c), but not condition b), because she clearly isn't fun to play with for many, for reasons mentioned already. Thus, she needs to change, and I'd be perfectly happy with a change that would be a net buff to her, provided that change also preventing her from robbing teammates of the gameplay they are entitled to.

I'm not saying this out of any personal dislike for Saryn, either, as I do also enjoy playing her, but am also careful with how I use her precisely because she can make missions so dull for everyone else. Similarly, I main Trinity and love the frame to bits, but will also be the first to point out her flaws and suggest drastic changes with the outright intent to nerf her: she definitely satisfies condition b) from the above in my opinion, though could stand to use some improvements to condition a) due to some lingering clunkiness, but my main issue is that she absolutely doesn't satisfy condition c), because she fills too many niches at once and has actually significantly harmed Warframe's metagame over time by providing near-infinite Energy and survivability to her teammates for most of her career. More generally, I think one should be able to simultaneously acknowledge one's enjoyment of a frame, while accepting that they may be flawed and in need of change, and when people cannot separate the two, that typically limits design talk to shallow, barely-useful conversation.

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And what specifically is that fundamental bit of core gameplay?

The ability to engage in combat with enemies. That is what we had both been discussing throughout the exchange already, so I'm not sure why you would want to waste both our time with this sham request for explanation.

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I would also infer that there are already definitive benefits to having her in a group in her current rendition ones that you are either unaware of or don't care about.

You're right, I don't care about them in this context, because they're beside the point. I in fact want to bring those aspects to the forefront, because under different circumstances Saryn would be the best debuff frame in the game (and she has that in her already), but even that is currently being made to play second fiddle to her capacity for gratuitous room-clearing. In other words, Saryn's current state is bad for her group play aspects no simply because she often makes gameplay actively unpleasant for her groups, but because the stuff she does that could genuinely benefit groups isn't being allowed to shine.

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Excuses? Accusations? You have been doing a fine job using those all by yourself, you don't need my help in deflection you are king in that arena.

Speaking of deflection, your reply here is a pure tu quoque that does not even attempt to contradict the fact that you have in fact argued through false excuses and accusations. On my side, I have made no excuses, and while I have certainly accused you of things, I have always backed up my accusations with evidence and supporting arguments, whereas as has been pointed out in the quote you are replying to, you simply throw both around in great quantity, yet make no effort to make them even sound true.

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Abusive or non abusive is subjective. However you are correct that such a change would be based on "consistent and sizeable feedback".

No, it's not. When something has been consistently reported to worsen play experience, that thing is abusive, and your personal disagreement on the matter on the pure grounds that you're exploiting said abusive feature here does not contradict this fact. As it stands, though, I do get to say this precisely because there has been consistent and sizeable feedback on this very same problem ever since Saryn's latest rework, so your attempt to deny that too is delusion, pure and simple.

More generally, to attempt a "X is subjective" argument just to dismiss a valid point is to play a losing game here: either your argument suggests that we should instead base ourselves on consensus, in which case you lose because all evidence clearly points to you being on the wrong side of the consensus, or else your argument simply dismisses the entire discussion as invalid, in which case you also lose, as it becomes an implicit admission that you just spent a whole lot of time and effort making arguments you acknowledge as worthless. In neither case does this help your case. The implication here is that you don't actually consider everyone's arguments to be subjective, but that you consider everyone else's arguments to be subjective, and by extension yours the only ones worth listening to. In general, dismissing any piece of design discussion you don't like on the grounds that it's "subjective" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the nature and value of critique, and isn't a good look on a feedback forum.

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There is consistent feedback on both sides of this matter stretching back for quite some time. You and others consistently supply the arguments for such a change and I and others consistently provide feedback against such a change. Weather such feedback is sizeable or not only DE knows. Only they can tell with any real degree of accuracy how many players would be effected good or bad.

Sure, there has been consistent feedback on both sides... and one of those sides has consistently been considerably larger than the other, as this very thread itself evidences. There are literally two sides to any issue, that does not mean we should take both sides to be equally true no matter what, any more than we should deny climate change or believe the Earth is flat just because a tiny, vocal minority of people are ready to argue those sides.

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Everyone else? Not at all.

The only ones I am asking to work with the currently available workarounds (which I agree are currently inefficient although completely effective) are those that are asking for changes to be made that effect the populace at large rather than using the simple logic that many others have figured out.  If you don't want to be exposed to certain playstyles then form premade groups. Don't PUG unless you are willing to accept the playstyles you may be exposed to in PUGs.

In other words, anyone who takes any issue with any frame in the game should take literal hundreds of times as much time starting up missions just so that they can avoid the small chance of a notoriously problematic frame making their mission less fun. Your attempts to finagle on semantics here do nothing to disguise the fact that the "workaround" you are proposing is laughably impractical and obviously disingenuous, as your sole intent here is to avoid the real issue at hand that is Saryn.

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So then I am to believe that the argument you are making is a perspective held by "only" you and those here who have spoken a similar perspective on the matter? Are you saying that the views you hold are not held by anyone else outside the forums? Weather they will actually see our posts is irrelevant.

Okay, so quick aside, but because this is not the first time you have made that exact same spelling mistake, the correct word is "whether". Weather is rain, sunshine, wind, etc.

Now that that's been addressed... what? What are you even arguing here? Where is any of this coming from? I'm puzzled, because it looks like you're trying very hard to insert words in my mouth that I have never even remotely implied, and so in response to me pointing out that you made an argument that was self-evidently wrong. It is simple propositional logic to acknowledge that people who never go on the forums will, by definition, never see your posts on the forums, and it easily follows from there that your claim to be making your posts for their reading sake is thus absurd. To claim that because of this I'm stating that nobody else shares my opinion is a complete non-sequitur, one that is also easily contradicted by the fact that my opinion on Saryn is verifiably shared by many people across many discussion spaces, not just these forums.

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I am providing a counter perspective in contrast to the one you are presenting. I am sure there are those who do not visit the forums that hold that same perspective or even a similar one just as there would be some populace that holds the same perspective you do outside the realm of the forums.

To call your apologetics a "counter perspective" would be a tad too generous, as ultimately all you have done is produce knee-jerk opposition to the merest suggestion of change to Saryn, all because you are opposed to any change to her on principle, and so even despite acknowledging the fact that she lessens her teammates' enjoyment of missions. You may hold a perspective, and that perspective may even be shared by some other people, but that does not mean your perspective automatically deserves to get taken seriously.

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You and I don't make the decisions for what changes and doesn't in this game only DE does. However it is our duty as consumers to provide our perspectives on changes to a product and how those changes may effect us. So you and I both are doing what we need to be doing. 

Oh, for sure, I am doing my part by doing what I can to criticize the game and its many different aspects fairly, analyze what I perceive to be its issues, and offer ideas on how to address them in order to improve the game. Many others on these forums, thankfully, do the same. To insinuate yourself into this group, however, is to insult it, because despite the copious amounts of text you've dumped onto this thread, you have ultimately failed to produce any actionable feedback or move discussion forward, and so because contributing positively was never your intention in the first place. You're not here to offer a measured critique of the game or discuss how to improve it, you're here because someone made a suggestion you personally didn't like, and you're ready to bog down discussion for everyone else if it means burying the dissenting opinion through your sheer volume of repetitive dross. Nothing you have said so far has been new or even interesting, and your intentions are patently selfish and false. That is not an attitude that benefits the game, and in fact it is precisely because of people like you that DE takes more time than they should to accept feedback, because these forums are infested with self-interested white knights who fill threads with pointless noise, and give the developers the false notion that things are peachy when there are in fact problems that need to be addressed. 

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I am not arguing that my perspective is held by a majority out of the entire populace of the game. What I am arguing is:

Not everyone believes Saryn is as broken as you make her out to be.

This is a vacuous argument that holds no value of its own. Just because a single person, or some other small number, believes Saryn is fine, does not make that belief automatically valid, particularly in the face of contrary evidence.

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Many players (not saying most just many) have adapted and understand how to use her in groups to her full potential benefiting the entirety of the group.

This too is a vacuous statement that conflates adapting to a problematic frame with believing her to be fun. When I play ESO I will "adapt" to Saryn by either riding with the inevitable one or two Saryns per pug up to wave 8, or play the frame myself, and when a Saryn monopolizes combat in a defensive mission I'm in, I can easily mentally tune out and think about something else. In neither case does that invalidate the problems with Saryn's gameplay, or the fact that her existence in missions tends to make gameplay duller. Similarly, many players, myself included, can see the usefulness of Limbo in many missions, while still acknowledging the frustration his kit often induces when allies are prevented from interacting normally with enemies.

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1. That alternative solutions to changing Saryn currently exist which you refuse use.

Because those "alternative solutions" are disproportionately inconvenient relative to the problem at hand, and are visibly being suggested in bad faith purely as a distraction. Quitting Warframe altogether is also an "alternative solution"; that does not make it a desirable or valid one.

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2. That alternative solutions could be found by increasing the control capacity of the group finder. Of which you refuse to engage in.

Except they wouldn't, because relying on some group finder to assemble Saryn-free groups, instead of just hopping into a pug and being able to expect healthy gameplay, is still horribly clunky, time-consuming, and altogether unjustified. The suggestion itself begs the question as to why Saryn isn't being directly addressed.

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3. Any developmental changes based around personal playstyles should be made in a manner that effects the least amount of players in a negative way as possible. (Or more importantly, minimize negative effects outside the target audience that desires such a change.)

Which my proposal satisfies, and yours doesn't. My proposal to change Saryn would only reliably affect those who would oppose any change no matter what, whereas your proposal to force people into some hypothetical recruiting tool (which, by the way, would be time-consuming and thus inconvenient in the short-term for DE to implement, not that you seem to care) affects a much larger number of people who take issue with not being able to engage in combat in a looter shooter. You seem rather desperate to frame the two sides of this discussion as equally valid, yet are unable to make anything but the shallowest of comparisons, because any further inspection quickly reveals that the exchange is painfully one-sided: at the end of the day, you're trying to legitimately justify a frame denying a core gameplay element from their teammates, and no amount of false equivalence is going to make that come across as convincing to anyone but those few that have the same vested interest as you do.

10 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

nobody is denying you anything.  that's a choice you made by A) not putting your own group together B) not playing solo C) not changing your attitude and saying thanks for the carry and free loot D) not upping your arsenal so that the problem is irrellavent to you.  Your choice.

These arguments are beyond stupid. You are asking players to go through some utterly insane and evidently undesirable workarounds just to avoid the off-chance of running into a Saryn, and behind all of those laughable attempts at deflection lies the implicit admission that Saryn does in fact deny a core aspect of gameplay to her teammates when she's around. Worth mentioning here as well that:

• Point A has already been addressed several times, so you are merely repeating yourself in the vain hope that putting the argument forth this time will make it less wrong than the last.
• Asking players to shut off multiplayer in Warframe just to avoid dealing with its design issues is an utterly terrible idea that does not even benefit the developers, let alone the playerbase, due to how it just aims to isolate people. You are clearly not making this argument in good faith.
• Point C is incoherent at best, and insulting at worst. Why should anyone be thanking anyone else for worsening their play experience? You seem to be reasoning purely in terms of efficiency here, in complete and deliberate ignorance of the fact that Warframe is a video game meant to provide enjoyment.
• Point D has also already been addressed several times. Repeating it here when it's already been pointed out that "upping your arsenal" has no impact on Saryn's problems isn't going to convince anyone, but it's certainly going to paint you as a dishonest debater.

Ultimately, all of these arguments are merely an attempt to shift blame away from Saryn's design and onto the players complaining about them, a tactic as transparent as it is cowardly. I don't really see how you expect to convince anyone here.

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you control your level of interaction.  if you don't like playing with some players don't play with them.  you know what I find annoying, people who are too slow to get to xt because I already killed everything before they saw it (not using saryn).  maybe i should seek to get the game changed so they can't suck so bad because I'm unhappy with how they play.  see how ludicrous that is?  your argument is plainly "i don't like this therefore it should not be" and that's a bs argument.  

Except waiting for teammates to catch up isn't contradicting some fundamental aspect of the game, and your frustration with it merely underlines the fact that you are incapable of playing or empathizing with others. Some players being slower than others isn't some game design problem, whereas Saryn's kit letting her kill enemies before her team can reach them is.

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I don"t even play the character dude... that's you projecting, i just don't like it when people cry for nerfs and buffs that aren't needed, and yes, my stance is this is not needed, and frankly, I'm fine with the notion that players like yourself would quit if it doesn't change.  I'm ok with that, because unlike yourself, I'm not trying to hold up a thinly veiled argument that is really just personal preference and trying to justify it by projecting things that aren't true onto the other side.

Ho ho, it seems like I struck a nerve. So interesting to see the mask drop on your part, where you go from feigned, condescending politeness to pure, petulant venom, right down to wishing me to quit the game simply I disagreed with your mediocre opinion. As it stands, your blubbering here is itself a case of projection, as I have clearly made arguments that do not stem from my personal opinion of Saryn, whereas you have spectacularly failed to acknowledge the existence of anyone but yourself and your opinions in this debate.

Also, as is to be expected, you are lying: your record shows over 250k kills on Saryn Prime alone, suggesting you routinely abuse her in ESO. You patently have an interest in keeping Saryn exactly the way she is, and the fact that you deny playing the character at all merely highlights the personal stake you have in this conversation, and the underhanded tactics you are willing to use to that goal.

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they don't need to interact with enemies that are already dead, they need to interact with free loot.  boo hoo, life is hard sometimes.

... loot itself is inherently worthless if there are no enemies left alive to test one's shiny toys on. You're obsessing way too much over the mere results of playing missions, while rather obviously failing to acknowledge that the fun in Warframe comes from its actual gameplay. That is why Warframe is a looter shooter, and not simply a looter.

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holy crap, read what you just said again and explain how it's not my problem to solve, you're making my point for me... see that's the difference between you and I, see, i will, can, have, etc. do that, you however, want everyone else to be forced to cater to your demands as a player so you can have fun, at the expense of other's fun.  no thank you.

You seem to have it backwards: my entire point was that you seem to think that your personal choice to "suck it up" should also be forced upon everyone else, regardless of what they think, which is such an evidently narcissistic and harmful mentality that it boggles the mind that you'd endorse it so wholeheartedly. Meanwhile, my mentality is that when a solvable problem exists, I try to do something about it: going back to my example, I'm not saying my suggestion for Nidus is what should be implemented, but it would certainly neatly address the problem you mentioned at apparently no detriment to the player. It is not something I am suggesting needs to be implemented, but it could potentially improve the game in some respect nonetheless, and that I think is something inherently worth striving towards. The fact that you would not only reject such a suggestion out of hand, but outright deem it offensive, shows just how ill-suited you are to be discussing anything at all on a feedback forum, as you fundamentally believe anyone else's critique to be invalid by default.

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fun is subjective.  fun for some people is topping damage numbers.  fun for some people is grinding the new thing they want the fastest they can.  fun for some people is precisely the opposite of what you want.  these precise facts are exactly why your argument falls flat.  you want your method to be favored at the expense of everyone else's enjoyment, rather than solving the problem for yourself with the tools available.  simply put, you want the game to be more accessible for you, and people like you, rather than making it more accessible for yourself.

So first, I went on a little paragraph above in this same post about the inherent stupidity of dismissing contrary opinions under the excuse of "X is subjective", but this particular case is especially moronic, as it a) presumes the ability to make missions less enjoyable for allies to itself be a form of fun worthy of consideration, and b) tries to present that form of "fun" as equally valid, despite the fact that there is a clear imbalance at hand. As a looter shooter that obviously features a lot of combat, it stands to reason that one of Warframe's core sources of generally-acknowledged fun is, well, its combat. To be denied this can therefore also be assumed to be considered not fun, at least to people who aren't armchair philosophizing from their ivory tower on the internet. Like any other person resorting to the trite "fun is subjective" argument, you fail to understand that a subjective thing can still be quantified and analyzed based on statistics, and that subjectivity does not equate to a complete absence of consensus or trends. This applies not only to video game design, but also to actual sciences, namely any social science, so you really have no business trotting that non-argument out on this forum.

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you think it's so hard to put a premade together?  have you even tried or learned how?  I sometimes don't like playing with whiney babies that suck real hard, so I put a premade squad together, with people with much harder to achieve builds and much more precise requirements than your all casual squad would ever call for and I don't have trouble finding a group at 2am on a tuesday... what's your excuse?  too good for that?  apparently.  better to just ask them to sacrifice a large chunk of their player base that values useing the systems they themselves created to the best results in the game possible.  clearly throwing the players that are the most dedicated under the bus is the best possible plan and nothing could go wrong.  this is ridiculous.

Putting aside all the childish bile you're trying to throw my way here irrespective of its relevance to the topic of discussion (or just basic coherence), my argument here was never that assembling a premade was difficult, but rather that it is demonstrably far more time-consuming than just selecting a mission and forming a pug almost immediately. Assuming generously that assembling a full group and entering a mission takes a total of two minutes, as opposed to the ten seconds of a pug, that is already a time difference factor of twelve, an order of magnitude greater. You are thus asking players to experience a massive slowdown to the rate at which they enter missions just to work around the design problem at hand, instead of addressing said problem directly.

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don't get me mixed up... this is my feedback, which is that this argument is bs self entitlement. 

But that's not feedback, that's you desperately trying to present yourself as superior to others based on your inability to understand the purpose of feedback. You're not saying anything constructive, insightful, or even true, you're just clogging discussion with toxic, self-aggrandizing drivel.

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additionally I can have and do have my issues and suggestions with/for de, I just choose to pick my battles with what I confront as things to take issue with.

In other words, you have no qualms criticizing the game when you feel like it, you just think that when anyone else does it and you don't agree with the criticism, it's "bs self entitlement". Nope, no hypocrisy here whatsoever... /s

Edited October 16, 2019 by Teridax68

[Xepthrichros]

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

fun is subjective.  fun for some people is topping damage numbers.  fun for some people is grinding the new thing they want the fastest they can.  fun for some people is precisely the opposite of what you want.  these precise facts are exactly why your argument falls flat.  you want your method to be favored at the expense of everyone else's enjoyment, rather than solving the problem for yourself with the tools available.  simply put, you want the game to be more accessible for you, and people like you, rather than making it more accessible for yourself.

You are talking to people who have a very myopic way of looking at things and to them, there's only one truth about fun. I've explained to the person you are debating with on several occasions before, that fun is subjective. I've done it with him, and MirageKnight, and DeMonkey, and Pizzarugi, and I could go on. It's nearly pointless. They do not listen. They never will. They have certain specific ideas of fun and they think the entire world agrees. They will keep screaming here and demanding the world bend to their whims, while arguing everyone that disagrees with them is selfish, failing to see the selfishness of their own position. It is quite amazing if it was not so sad. 

They also pretend like whoever they are arguing with is ignorant or a goldfish, saying silly things like "nobody is asking for a homogenized game". As if we never read them ask for nerfs for weaker nukers like Mag, or Mesa who has line of sight requirements, and sometimes even Hildryn's Haven is mentioned as a problem, when Haven HAS line of sight limits. Some of them also say things like all tanking skills and damage reduction skills ought to go.

They are like that jealous sibling that sees their sibling playing with a toy. They don't like the toy personally, but because their sibling is having fun and maybe laughing a bit too loudly about the fun they are having, this jealous sibling goes to mum (space mum) and demands the toy to be confiscated. 

No fun allowed. - I've seen this pop up like a meme in the comment sections of many YouTube videos where content creators break the news of something getting nerfed (e.g. Trinity Link Nuke, Wukong's old glaive nuke, etc.) . These misplaced remarks about how DE hates fun, should really be directed here to the forums, directly to the face of these people asking for nerfs, to let them know that what they ask for is selfish and ruining other people's days.

The game could use better matchmaking to help conflicting playstyles see each other less often, more game modes or content that make CC  and tanks and healers more relevant than nuking. The game could use new enemies that are interesting, engaging, that require tact and us to adapt to their behavior patterns etc. and these cater to more frames beyond the nukers, which by extension will cater to more types of playstyles and possibly even broaden the player base. But nerfing nukers is not the answer. Nerfs alienate and piss off existing players who enjoy the game as is. New content / modes can require different approaches, and maybe the content will have the approach some of these "muh interactivity" people want. And we have solution to this conflicting playstyle problem. But then you got some of these nerf happy people arguing that you cannot have new modes or cannot improve matchmaking to have better filters. It's almost like they want to play with conflicting playstyles just so they can complain about it later and attempt to ruin the preferred playstyle (i.e. fun) of others. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm staying out of the Saryn conversation as I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on her specifically and it does seem to me there's some bigger problems that make it hard to sort out what is wrong with any individual frame--but I think that's an astute general observation.

Well, the problems with the individual frame in this case are clear, and it's that Saryn stomps the very idea of coop into the dirt. But yes, the bigger problem I'm talking about is loot caving, and it's not a new problem. Look up Vivergate if you want to see just how far back that conversation goes. 

28 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

The game could use better matchmaking to help conflicting playstyles see each other less often, more game modes or content that make CC  and tanks and healers more relevant than nuking. The game could use new enemies that are interesting, engaging, that require tact and us to adapt to their behavior patterns etc. and these cater to more frames beyond the nukers, which by extension will cater to more types of playstyles and possibly even broaden the player base. But nerfing nukers is not the answer.

DE has already tried introducing new enemies that require tactics besides just playing Saryn, and Saryn is still fairly prominent in missions that have those exact enemies. Like maybe Arbitration drones pushed us to something more of a tank meta, but A) creating conditions where Saryn is arbitrarily gimped only hides the problems she creates instead of solving them and B) Arbitration drones seriously harmed frames that rely on Exalted weapons or CC. 

Also, like. You're really presenting this like you think that curbing the kill speed of at most 3 Warframes is such a preposterous/terrible solution that DE should instead attempt to outright fix the rest of the game's problems. 

56 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

It's almost like they want to play with conflicting playstyles just so they can complain about it later and attempt to ruin the preferred playstyle (i.e. fun) of others. 

The problem at hand is that someone else playing Saryn actively ruins my playstyle, which involves, I dunno, actually fighting enemies. It also likely ruins the playstyle of the other two people in my squad. You're framing people who want Saryn changed as selfish and anti-fun, but one person can pick Saryn and instantly torpedo the fun of 3 other people. You're saying that this is like a kid being annoyed that their sibling is having too much fun with a harmless toy, but it's more like there's one kid on the playground whose idea of fun is taking all the Frisbees and not letting anyone else have one. 

Having Saryn in her current state feels like there's a bug that causes 1 out of every 6 defense missions to only spawn 5-10% the normal number of enemies. 

We all have playstyles we don't like, and that's okay. I'm willing to live and let live on someone liking Rhino or Hydroid. But the moment that your playstyle impedes on my ability to play the game, it becomes my problem. 

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Xepthrichros said:

snip

agree with all of that.

yes, it would be nice if we were better matched up.  it would be cool if we had content that kept us doing different stuff so we weren't stepping in the wangs of folks that just want to spam exalted blade and feel cool while doing it.  they would be happier, we would be happier.  like I said, I don't even play saryn, so it's not like I have a dog in the race, i just take issue with the argument base and needless nerfs and buffs being called for.

but as you sorta said, trying to convince people on this is like trying to talk them out of their religion... you really can't unless they want you to, because belief in convictions is what powers the argument, not logic, reason or the ability for everyone to enjoy the game the way that they wish.

there are lots of alternatives (on hand and that de could do without a nerf), but they don't want that, they want their way or no way at all... it's just pointless to even waste the time on that kind of ridiculousness.

 

[selig_fay]

I think that it is worth closing this topic, as it turns into mutual insults. 

The meaning is simple, there are people who do not like difficulties(or love efficiency and strive for it, as you like), there are people who love difficulties (or at least so they say). Both perceptions on the game have a right to life and there are no sides that are wrong. As mentioned earlier - Saryn is not a problem. Saryn works well as a clean-up from trash mobs. The problem is that 99% of the game - this is cleaning up trash mobs. 

That is all. All 8 pages I fit in a couple of words. 

 

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

The meaning is simple, there are people who do not like difficulties(or love efficiency and strive for it, as you like), there are people who love difficulties (or at least so they say). Both perceptions on the game have a right to life and there are no sides that are wrong. As mentioned earlier - Saryn is not a problem. Saryn works well as a clean-up from trash mobs. The problem is that 99% of the game - this is cleaning up trash mobs. 

See, I don't think that's entirely accurate, because Saryn is also good at killing high-health mobs, thanks to her scaling damage, and liberal application of Corrosive + Viral procs. It's one of the reasons why she's so good in ESO, because she just wipes everything, pretty much regardless of faction. It's also what makes her annoying to play with: if she at least left the tougher mobs for others to finish off, that would at least leave a sliver of interaction, but unfortunately that's not the case, so she ends up leaving no-one alive for others to fight. Framing the entire matter as a pure question of efficiency or difficulty thereby ignores the core reason behind the complaints, which is that Saryn's kit currently removes interaction from the game for her teammates: once again, if this only trivialized the game for Saryn alone, that'd be fine, because we have plenty of easymode frames like Inaros, Octavia, Rhino, etc. whose simple gameplay may be too simple for some, perfect for others, but always at least tolerable to play alongside (Octavia and Rhino especially in fact tend to be fun to play with, thanks to their CC/utility). However, the problem here is that Saryn also trivializes the game for everyone else, which has her force a playstyle, or lack thereof, upon others, thereby generating the complaints seen in this thread among many more. This is the difference between writing a Mary Sue character and godmoding over other players in a group pen-and-paper RPG session: the former may be easy to poke fun at, but is ultimately harmless, whereas the latter is obnoxious and actively detrimental to the experience of others in a multiplayer game.

1 hour ago, Klokwerkaos said:

would second the motion, this has devolved to just insult slinging at this point and no conversation is productive.

This is purest hypocrisy, as not only have you been one of the main initiators and biggest culprits in slinging insults and derailing productive conversation, but have done both deliberately with the express intent of shutting this thread down. The better solution would be to just remove trolls like you from this thread and allow intelligent discussion to resume, and the same could be applied to many more threads locked after single white knights deliberately started flame wars, with the full knowledge that moderators here tend to prefer to shut entire discussions down than directly address individual problem posters.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Teridax68

[selig_fay]

43 минуты назад, Teridax68 сказал:

See, I don't think that's entirely accurate, because Saryn is also good at killing high-health mobs, thanks to her scaling damage, and liberal application of Corrosive + Viral procs. It's one of the reasons why she's so good in ESO, because she just wipes

everything, pretty much regardless of faction. It's also what makes her annoying to play with: if she at least left the tougher mobs for others to finish off, that would at least leave a sliver of interaction, but unfortunately that's not the case, so she ends up leaving no-one alive for others to fight. Framing the entire matter as a pure question of efficiency or difficulty thereby ignores the core reason behind the complaints, which is that Saryn's kit currently removes interaction from the game for her teammates: once again, if this only trivialized the game for Saryn alone, that'd be fine, because we have plenty of easymode frames like Inaros, Octavia, Rhino, etc. whose simple gameplay may be too simple for some, perfect for others, but always at least tolerable to play alongside (Octavia and Rhino especially in fact tend to be fun to play with, thanks to their CC/utility). However, the problem here is that Saryn also trivializes the game for everyone else, which has her force a playstyle, or lack thereof, upon others, thereby generating the complaints seen in this thread among many more. This is the difference between writing a Mary Sue character and godmoding over other players in a group pen-and-paper RPG session: the former may be easy to poke fun at, but is ultimately harmless, whereas the latter is obnoxious and actively detrimental to the experience of others in a multiplayer game.

I understand perfectly. But even if you remove all the nuck frames, there will still be broken mechanics like invisibility or mad control like Nova. Hey, I want to play like a tank, and Nova's taking my job? I want nerf Nova.

The problem is not in the frame, the problem is in the game. The whole game is about killing trash mobs. Even nullifiers ceased to represent at least some danger.

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by zhellon

[Teridax68]

25 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I understand perfectly. But even if you remove all the nuck frames, there will still be broken mechanics like invisibility or mad control like Nova. Hey, I want to play like a tank, and Nova's taking my job? I want nerf Nova.

The problem is not in the frame, the problem is in the game.

But if your attempt to tank involves surviving lots of damage, Nova or any other CC frame will help you by limiting the enemy's damage output, itself a generally desirable thing. For sure, there are edge cases like Chroma wanting to take more damage, Slowva being a pain in the neck in Defense missions, and Speeva being trollish to use outside of low-level Defense missions, but ultimately these edge cases are small and nuanced enough that they typically do not create problems (and when problems do arise, it's typically because of some rare Nova troll, who's going to be suffering just as much from the consequences of her actions as everyone else, which is why those types are so rare). Similarly, mechanics like invincibility, invisibility, etc. may trivialize many missions, but ultimately, as is the case with most easymode frames, that only affects the frame user, not their teammates. By contrast, Saryn is currently designed in such a way that simply playing her normally lowers her teammates' ability to interact with the game: thus, unlike frames with rare abuse cases such as Nova, or frames like Loki, Inaros, etc. who make the game trivially easy for whoever's playing them, and them only, Saryn's basic playstyle is abusive to her teammates. For sure, she's not the only frame with problems, and ideally I'd like to see a Warframe where every design problem is addressed, but hers are frame-dependent issues, not systemic ones. Blaming the game as a whole instead of focusing on specific problem mechanics, despite mentioning them by name, in this respect I think diffuses responsibility, and makes it harder to take any effective action instead of facilitating it.

[toxic_degenerate]

21 hours ago, toxic_degenerate said:

im gonna make this very basic so you can understand me here okay?

ME, WANT TO, SHOOT, BAD GUY

SHOOTING, BAD GUY , FEELS GOOD MAN

ME, NO LIKE, SARYN, CUS , SHE MAKE, SHOOTING, BAD GUY, POINTLESS

(also this game dont need "maximum effort" lmao unless ur doing a solo 3 hour MOT survival run)

 

18 hours ago, toxic_degenerate said:

it is the same argument, why? is my max range max duration limbo build on defense fun for others? no, does it work? yeh kinda, does a nuke build on saryn work? yes, is it fun for others? no

b r u h

I, want, to, shoot, things

also i want a nerf not a rework (my post was just moved here)

and from what i can tell from this thread im not the only one who doesnt find saryn fun to play with, in fact you could say playing with a saryn is bland and playing saryn just creates little narcissist toxic players (like yourself) who dont care if other people enjoy the game or not, hmmm maybe they should just pick saryn to "keep up" with the kills (that are also pointless btw).

My argument (again) 1 frame should not be able to kill everything in the map (no matter the level) with just the press for two buttons, why? cus .1 thats literally the definition of overpowered .2 there are frames that need to do something with an enemy for the frames ability to work 3. its just not fun 

hmmmmmmmmmm nice snip

13 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

simple, don't play with a saryn then.  how hard is that?  I can form a premade whenever I don't want to play with casuals, why can't casuals be asked to put in the same 10 seconds worth of effort, or should we cater to their every whims until the game pulls itself apart?

 

yeah planning missions is a good idea for long endurance runs / specific farm runs

(but I aint gonna do that for every mission)

or we could just nerf saryn, the frame you cant really defend because we both know how op her ability is, and I really dont think fixing an op frame would "pull the game apart" at this point I take it you're a saryn main or just another white knight trying to make sure de only focuses on new content instead fixing the game which will probably kill the game in the long run.

Look I know there's no content right now but its not gonna kill the game if we just fix things here and there I mean look at team fortress 2 still no major update in two years and it still gets the highest player count in steam, im not saying we should wait 2 years for content im saying the game is not gonna die overnight, as a community we should come together and help make warframe more fun, less bugged, less broken and of cousre filled with more content.

[Miyabi-sama]

@Klokwerkaos @DeMonkey

Are you guys graduated from elementary yet?

That's a shame to see. Quit to DMs or stop it right now.

11 часов назад, zhellon сказал:

The meaning is simple, there are people who do not like difficulties(or love efficiency and strive for it, as you like), there are people who love difficulties (or at least so they say). Both perceptions on the game have a right to life and there are no sides that are wrong. As mentioned earlier - Saryn is not a problem. Saryn works well as a clean-up from trash mobs. The problem is that 99% of the game - this is cleaning up trash mobs. 

That is all. All 8 pages I fit in a couple of words. 

Basically upvote this.

And again, this game needs a huge disclaimer "Game experience may be different during multiplayer" right in the middle of the goddamn launcher screen.

[toxic_degenerate]

13 hours ago, zhellon said:

 Saryn is not a problem.

yeah saryn is not a problem at alll, she can just kill everything on the map with only two buttons definitely not op and is definitely fun to play with, myself? I personally enjoy watching that one saryn single handedly kill everything on the map while I just stand there with my weapons and warframe I spent so much time on formaing/modding.

[selig_fay]

4 минуты назад, toxic_degenerate сказал:

yeah saryn is not a problem at alll, she can just kill everything on the map with only two buttons definitely not op and is definitely fun to play with, myself? I personally enjoy watching that one saryn single handedly kill everything on the map while I just stand there with my weapons and warframe I spent so much time on formaing/modding.

And now you can go back to my post and read it again. Words that have been taken out of context can do a lot of different bad things.

[KaijuKraid]

I don't think Saryn is a problem at all, perhaps outside of ESO and perhaps Defence. Any other Endless mode it doesn't matter if you actually get kills or not. She's more of a symptom of the problems that Warframe has at the moment rather than anything to do with her being 'Overpowered.' As for non-endless modes where she matters, a lot of frames can shred through quicker than Saryn even on Exterminates in Sortie levels. 

Saryn is 'mandatory' in some of these modes because she has the best way to deal with swarms of enemies that can potentially be very hard to kill, thanks to Armour scaling being completely mental in this game. The game itself was never meant to be balanced outside of Star Chart, but steps to bring end game has brought that to the forefront. 

Also without Saryn in her current state, ESO Efficiency is a hell of a lot harder to manage. Yes, I can go further than 8 Waves with Solo Khora on ESO. Yes, I can outkill/out damage Saryn with Khora or other frames on any other gamemode if I put the skill and time into it. The reason Saryn sees play more than others is she can deal with things easier, and that's fine. The content where she truly shines, it doesn't actually matter. People just pick the lazy option, and that's A-OK also.

Fix damage and damage scaling as well as Armour, then touch Saryn. It's not that Saryn overpreforms, it's that many frames end up underpreforming instead. If it turns out fixing how damage works in this game brings all the other frames to the forefront but Saryn is still overpreforming, then nerf her there and then. But right now for those who think she's OP: She's a really necessary evil. 

 

[selig_fay]

5 минут назад, toxic_degenerate сказал:

sure thing bucko

you seem to think this whole thread is about difficulty and not about if saryn needs a rework/nerf (would be happy with just the nerf), you seemed to have ignored everyones comment and just thrown yours in and then claim thats all you could get from 8 pages, then you go on to say that saryn is just for cleaning up trash mobs (even tho heavy units are still infected) then I think you're saying (from the text) "cleaning up trash mods is 99% of game, if thats the case why use a gun? or even any other frame but saryn?

gez I play games to escape nihilism lmao

You can use Inaros to pass the game because Inaros is immortal for normal content. Invulnerability means you can't lose, which means it's also an OP thing. Though wait, he's not immortal without mods and arcanes. Saryn also has the same situation. Just a lot of people now have arcanes enr and zenuric. Saryn can kill faster than other cadres, but without the 4 ability she doesn't make it that easy because you need to use her weapon.

You can nerf Saryn, people will take Equinox. You can start a series of nerves, but it will not give the complexity of the game, because you can kill with your operator faster than most frames and weapons. And if fire proc gets armor strip, then the operator gets armor removal mechanics and can generally use a warframe like Hildryn to generate energy orbs for the killer operator. In end you need simply nerf greater part of game, and better roll back game ago on years 4. Just great and interesting times when everyone spammed 1 button for many hours. 

So I don't see anything wrong with my post. The problem is not in the frame, the problem is in the game. I can say that the player has become a God again. 

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, KaijuKraid said:

I don't think Saryn is a problem at all, perhaps outside of ESO and perhaps Defence. Any other Endless mode it doesn't matter if you actually get kills or not. She's more of a symptom of the problems that Warframe has at the moment rather than anything to do with her being 'Overpowered.' As for non-endless modes where she matters, a lot of frames can shred through quicker than Saryn even on Exterminates in Sortie levels. 

Saryn is 'mandatory' in some of these modes because she has the best way to deal with swarms of enemies that can potentially be very hard to kill, thanks to Armour scaling being completely mental in this game. The game itself was never meant to be balanced outside of Star Chart, but steps to bring end game has brought that to the forefront. 

Also without Saryn in her current state, ESO Efficiency is a hell of a lot harder to manage. Yes, I can go further than 8 Waves with Solo Khora on ESO. Yes, I can outkill/out damage Saryn with Khora or other frames on any other gamemode if I put the skill and time into it. The reason Saryn sees play more than others is she can deal with things easier, and that's fine. The content where she truly shines, it doesn't actually matter. People just pick the lazy option, and that's A-OK also.

Fix damage and damage scaling as well as Armour, then touch Saryn. It's not that Saryn overpreforms, it's that many frames end up underpreforming instead. If it turns out fixing how damage works in this game brings all the other frames to the forefront but Saryn is still overpreforming, then nerf her there and then. But right now for those who think she's OP: She's a really necessary evil. 

 

this.

the problems with saryn are underlying issues with the game, not the frame... which sadly I've already put in proposals to fix, but nadda to date.  maybe one day...

Edited October 16, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Klokwerkaos]

28 minutes ago, zhellon said:

You can use Inaros to pass the game because Inaros is immortal for normal content. Invulnerability means you can't lose, which means it's also an OP thing. Though wait, he's not immortal without mods and arcanes. Saryn also has the same situation. Just a lot of people now have arcanes enr and zenuric. Saryn can kill faster than other cadres, but without the 4 ability she doesn't make it that easy because you need to use her weapon.

You can nerf Saryn, people will take Equinox. You can start a series of nerves, but it will not give the complexity of the game, because you can kill with your operator faster than most frames and weapons. And if fire proc gets armor strip, then the operator gets armor removal mechanics and can generally use a warframe like Hildryn to generate energy orbs for the killer operator. In end you need simply nerf greater part of game, and better roll back game ago on years 4. Just great and interesting times when everyone spammed 1 button for many hours. 

So I don't see anything wrong with my post. The problem is not in the frame, the problem is in the game. I can say that the player has become a God again. 

this isn"t necessarily a bad thing either... just that there needs to be content to take it to that provides the incremental challenge and reward.  as of now, there is no good reason other than collecting to go past mr 16 and the gameplay is about challenge appropriate for the average player of that level... problem is, there are plenty of mr 27s that know the game mechanics well and have all the resources to trivialize all content with saryn or any frame or weapon... it's a game problem, not a saryn problem.  but the people that are die hard against it don't really see it that way.  they think because they get mad when there is a saryn present that it's that players fault and the problem is with that frame choice, but this is the symptom, not the root cause, which can be fixed, and there are tools to work around it now, and possible fixes that would make this a non issue, but those people don't really want those solutions, they just want to punch the thing that annoys them (nerf saryn!), and that's remarkably short sighted.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[toxic_degenerate]

10 minutes ago, zhellon said:

You can use Inaros to pass the game because Inaros is immortal for normal content. Invulnerability means you can't lose, which means it's also an OP thing. Though wait, he's not immortal without mods and arcanes. Saryn also has the same situation. Just a lot of people now have arcanes enr and zenuric. Saryn can kill faster than other cadres, but without the 4 ability she doesn't make it that easy because you need to use her weapon.

You can nerf Saryn, people will take Equinox. You can start a series of nerves, but it will not give the complexity of the game, because you can kill with your operator faster than most frames and weapons. And if fire proc gets armor strip, then the operator gets armor removal mechanics and can generally use a warframe like Hildryn to generate energy orbs for the killer operator. In end you need simply nerf greater part of game, and better roll back game ago on years 4. Just great and interesting times when everyone spammed 1 button for many hours. 

So I don't see anything wrong with my post. The problem is not in the frame, the problem is in the game. I can say that the player has become a God again.

nah you have some very good points right there not gonna lie the main issue with saryn alone and not Equinox or mesa is that saryn can kill things with a lot of range,a mesa can be yeehaw-ing in one room I can just skip that room and go to another but since saryn has good range you really have to overextend to get away from her (if you can), I also dont want saryn to get nerfed into the ground, just nerfed so shes at the same level as mesa ect.

also I get that frames are made to be/feel powerful but you gotta admit saryn is over doing it.

[selig_fay]

1 минуту назад, toxic_degenerate сказал:

also I get that frames are made to be/feel powerful but you gotta admit saryn is over doing it.

Yes, it is strong. But I see Saryn only on defense and nowhere else. I know she can be strong on survival, for example, but that doesn't make sense because everyone can survive using weapons. I'm not interested in Saryn myself because She doesn't know how to do anything but damage and selfbuff. I more believe that Wisp is OP. Wisp literally can do all the things in the game.

[Klokwerkaos]

16 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Yes, it is strong. But I see Saryn only on defense and nowhere else. I know she can be strong on survival, for example, but that doesn't make sense because everyone can survive using weapons. I'm not interested in Saryn myself because She doesn't know how to do anything but damage and selfbuff. I more believe that Wisp is OP. Wisp literally can do all the things in the game.

the main issue I see people having with her, fwiw, is in eso... which it's like... well simaris even says right at the beginning to be efficient, do not relent and kill everything you see... so like... getting mad at people for doing the thing they are expected to do is like... wut?

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, KaijuKraid said:

Saryn is 'mandatory' in some of these modes because she has the best way to deal with swarms of enemies that can potentially be very hard to kill, thanks to Armour scaling being completely mental in this game.

Armor scaling is a well-known issue, but it's not one that we need something as crazy as Saryn to circumvent. The game is pretty full of Warframes that can remove armor, and once Ember and Vauban get reworked, we're going to have even more. 

1 hour ago, KaijuKraid said:

It's not that Saryn overpreforms, it's that many frames end up underpreforming instead.

Well yeah. Pretty much anything is going to look really weak if you compare it to an ability that can attack everything on the map at once, ignoring LoS, applying the best debuffs in the game, and increases in damage until it kills its targets. The thing that Saryn does is impossible to compete with by its very nature. 

There are lots of Warframes that do lots more damage than Saryn does, but pretty much all of them (barring Volt and Equinox) must respect LoS and/or have a limited AoE, and that is the crucial component that sets Saryn apart from a different DPS, and it is also the reason that she is problematic in coop. 

43 minutes ago, zhellon said:

You can use Inaros to pass the game because Inaros is immortal for normal content. Invulnerability means you can't lose, which means it's also an OP thing.

There's a very important difference between trivializing the game for yourself and trivializing the game for your whole squad. Inaros does the former, and Saryn does the latter. Someone playing Inaros has a really easy game, but they won't be stepping on anyone else's toes. 

Saryn is a problem not because of power, but because she removes agency from other players. Power has been out of wack for most of the game's life span, and you can argue that pretty much anything is oupie ay eff. That isn't what this debate is about. 

[toxic_degenerate]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

Yes, it is strong. But I see Saryn only on defense and nowhere else. I know she can be strong on survival, for example, but that doesn't make sense because everyone can survive using weapons. I'm not interested in Saryn myself because She doesn't know how to do anything but damage and selfbuff. I more believe that Wisp is OP. Wisp literally can do all the things in the game.

I always see saryns probably cus I only play defense, survival and disruption ect (just a note I dont know why but I have seen saryns in eidolon hunts, I wish I was joking)

oh yeah wisp is pretty good, I'd say her only downside as a support frame is that she cant generate energy but thats it.

the only reason I dont want wisp nerfed is because she is fun to play with.