saryn rework when?

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

There's a very important difference between trivializing the game for yourself and trivializing the game for your whole squad. Inaros does the former, and Saryn does the latter. Someone playing Inaros has a really easy game, but they won't be stepping on anyone else's toes. 

Saryn is a problem not because of power, but because she removes agency from other players. Power has been out of wack for most of the game's life span, and you can argue that pretty much anything is oupie ay eff. That isn't what this debate is about. 

is it their right to have agency exactly as they would like?

point in case.  last night I kindly asked my arb pug squad "pls mark ve if you see it" and someone replied with "what the f do i look like, your secretary?" and they and one other person quit, because I asked them nicely to do a thing that all of us would benefit from, and they then made the mission harder since it was an interception and leaving me and one other player to complete it.

Am I entitled to not have anyone on the internet ever be a rude jerk?  I would say I am not, but rather, I would "prefer" to have a better interaction, and this is my own risk that I knowingly took but joining a pug, and as such, i would dictate that it's my personal responsibility to ensure my own good time.  Thankfully I'm an adult, so I didn't care, and made the best of the situation.

If that is true in that situation, and players have viable remedies in game, should players be allowed to exempt themselves from their own personal responsibility?

I would contend that different players want different play styles, and some want to room nuke, some want to leech, and some hate leechers and room nuking, and that's all OK and valid ways to enjoy the game.

To me the underlying issues with saryn are the problem, not the frame itself, and that is by virtue of armor scaling being broke AF which makes corrosive disproportionately over-valuable.  Combine that with also broken scaling ehp and forcing endgame min/maxers to play alongside newbies due to content draught, and that saryn is easily accessible, it results in the current community divide.

additionally I would argue it doesn't take agency away from the player, it makes meaningful agency have a higher bar, since any frame can out damage and outkill a saryn 1,4 spam combo with a proper melee set up and a minimal amount of effort to navigate a map (It's just that most players haven't earned this access and it seems out of their reach even though it isn't, and also they haven't learned the maps well enough to navigate them appropriately).  if anything I mostly have a problem with her melee damage bonus since the only viable way to (without group buffs on you and not the saryn) outdamage saryn is with melee, and she also has a melee buff to add to her 1,4 combo, making her lead in that area also, which seems a little harsh, but nobody complains about that because it's not the thing that annoys them, all they see is the 1,4 spam.  that said, i don't necessarily have a problem with it, I just think It"s a little overkill to have all that on one frame.
 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[KaijuKraid]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Armor scaling is a well-known issue, but it's not one that we need something as crazy as Saryn to circumvent. The game is pretty full of Warframes that can remove armor, and once Ember and Vauban get reworked, we're going to have even more. 

Which is exactly the problem we see if you realize it. Pretty much the whole game revolves around stripping armour. Corrosive, Slash, Corrosive Projection, Armour Strip and more. It's coming to a point where in order for frames to become relevant, armour stripping has become mandatory. Thus pointing out the symptom I've mentioned earlier. It's taken years at this point to finally come to a point where every frame is now getting reworked to be able to handle armour. We even have Wisp who has a 4 that inflicts Corrosive Proc but not actually corrosive damage. Hell, I would also argue that Radiation Damage is the third most seen Elemental because only can it build with Viral, but it also bypasses Alloy Armour, thus making it the second/third best choice versus Grineer. Also best choice for almost every boss. 

To make things more interesting, the fact that most trash Grineer Mobs and many Infested are also weak to Corrosive, thus taking additional damage and having some of their armour ignored also, which makes Saryn even more powerful against Grineer, which is the only faction anyone really should have problems with to begin with. 

Ultimately you've kind of proved my point about armour: More stuff is getting Armour Stripping. Heat is being reworked to also remove Armour (Though I don't think it'll be as strong as Corrosive) with Ember and Vauban being reworked with Armour Stripping. Pretty much every Frame is now being released or reworked to remove Armour in some way or has some way of dealing with armour. Even Gauss is technically retroactively getting it with his 3 having a Flame Proc. 

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Well yeah. Pretty much anything is going to look really weak if you compare it to an ability that can attack everything on the map at once, ignoring LoS, applying the best debuffs in the game, and increases in damage until it kills its targets. The thing that Saryn does is impossible to compete with by its very nature. 

There are lots of Warframes that do lots more damage than Saryn does, but pretty much all of them (barring Volt and Equinox) must respect LoS and/or have a limited AoE, and that is the crucial component that sets Saryn apart from a different DPS, and it is also the reason that she is problematic in coop.

Here's the thing though as I mentioned earlier: In Endless Modes, only two missions matter for that sort of thing: ESO and Defence. Both missions you want to clear out as quickly as possible. You've mentioned that lots of Warframes can do more damage than Saryn does. This is true, but she's also a little slower when it comes to the nuking. Hell, I'd point out that the most valuable she's in is ESO then Arbitration/Sortie Defence. Every other frame can do what she does. Would you advocate a nerf for Mirage with the Explosive Legerdemain build since it's now shown she can trivialize pretty much content Saryn does even quicker outside of Sortie Defence? Should we be nerfing Limbo more for the fact he trivializes Defence and Excavation Endless Modes? 

People want to kill things, that's fine. I understand the complaints about turning Warframe into a Walking Simulator in things like Exterminates, but that's going to happen more often than not even without a Saryn around. Hell, some Embers can still do that. 

Outside of ESO and Defence, Saryn's Spores either a) Don't actually matter or b) Build up slowly only to probably get ready to reset again. Again, the only other mission type that matters for kills would be Exterminate and I can assure you that quite often that spin to winner is probably going to kill the enemy before Saryn's Spores spread properly to do more damage.

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

Saryn is a problem not because of power, but because she removes agency from other players. Power has been out of wack for most of the game's life span, and you can argue that pretty much anything is oupie ay eff. That isn't what this debate is about. 

See, now I understand why people use the 'Ember Defence' when talking about Saryn because of comments like this. Though it annoys me because it's actually not comparable: Ember's problem was there was no need to do any form of set up to annihilate the trash that was in low level missions. People complained Ember turned low level into a Walking Simulator and thus was hit because of that.

Which is a shame because I remember the discussions back with Ember when people pointed out if Ember was nerfed, Equinox and Volt would be nerfed. I also remember the argument that Overextended should probably be hit also because the -Power Strength meant nothing if the Range was too big, which ironically Ember proved with her nerf when her Range was the one that took the hit and more amusingly she gets more powerful the longer her 4 is up, thus proving an argument that lost traction that perhaps Overextended was also a major culprit. People will ALWAYS bring up that argument and I've never seen anyone actually attack that argument dead on either. 

 

[Xepthrichros]

On 2019-10-16 at 12:24 PM, Gurpgork said:

Well, the problems with the individual frame in this case are clear, and it's that Saryn stomps the very idea of coop into the dirt. But yes, the bigger problem I'm talking about is loot caving, and it's not a new problem. Look up Vivergate if you want to see just how far back that conversation goes. 

DE has already tried introducing new enemies that require tactics besides just playing Saryn, and Saryn is still fairly prominent in missions that have those exact enemies. Like maybe Arbitration drones pushed us to something more of a tank meta, but A) creating conditions where Saryn is arbitrarily gimped only hides the problems she creates instead of solving them and B) Arbitration drones seriously harmed frames that rely on Exalted weapons or CC. 

Also, like. You're really presenting this like you think that curbing the kill speed of at most 3 Warframes is such a preposterous/terrible solution that DE should instead attempt to outright fix the rest of the game's problems. 

The problem at hand is that someone else playing Saryn actively ruins my playstyle, which involves, I dunno, actually fighting enemies. It also likely ruins the playstyle of the other two people in my squad. You're framing people who want Saryn changed as selfish and anti-fun, but one person can pick Saryn and instantly torpedo the fun of 3 other people. You're saying that this is like a kid being annoyed that their sibling is having too much fun with a harmless toy, but it's more like there's one kid on the playground whose idea of fun is taking all the Frisbees and not letting anyone else have one. 

Having Saryn in her current state feels like there's a bug that causes 1 out of every 6 defense missions to only spawn 5-10% the normal number of enemies. 

We all have playstyles we don't like, and that's okay. I'm willing to live and let live on someone liking Rhino or Hydroid. But the moment that your playstyle impedes on my ability to play the game, it becomes my problem. 

So your response to people that affect your enjoyment now and then, whenever you are unlucky enough to be with them (unlucky to you, but to others, having a Saryn can be considered a blessing)..... is: "Lets delete their existence or their ability to play the way they like entirely".

Like another person on this thread: "lets delete your opinions and remove you from the thread entirely because anyone that disagrees with me is being unconstructive and is trolling / whiteknighting"

 Good to know the kind of people we are dealing with. "I don't like what you are doing, so, I want to ban your existence". 

The problem at hand is with the game. Not Saryn. I already stated before, we need more modes. So what I am saying is "since we can't get along, maybe we should have more rooms. like if the two siblings keep fighting, maybe the parents should consider separating them to have their own rooms now" not 'lets put one child up for adoption"

@zhellon summarized it with 99% of the game is trash mobs. While that is maybe an exaggeration, I do agree we need to make this become something like 60-70% trash mobs and 40% worthwhile enemies. This can be done in terms of difficulty settings, new content, new enemies, new modes, or new enemy types even in low-level missions. If you still cannot find satisfaction with more skill-based modes that offer tankier (and hopefully smarter) targets and you keep calling them ways to hide the problem (as you have called arbitration and disruption), then you simply are incapable of compromise and just demanding your way.  Also, if you see people using Saryn in these modes, they probably doing it to clear out fodder so its easier for everyone to identify the priority targets like Disruption Demo units or the groups protected by the Arbitration drone. Or they just pick her out of habit, or assume she'd be good to deal with the special enemies since she was good elsewhere, not really thinking that there are better weapon-buff warframes that can deal with the tankier enemies in these modes, or maybe they just haven't built those other warframes, or, maybe they actually just main Saryn and like her playstyle (and you just want to delete these players - who also could be paying customers, entirely, smh). 

Also, ability immunity like the arby drones you mentioned is where DE drops the ball in terms of counters to warframe powers. Change all ability immunity to ability resistance and problem solved. Saryn neutered against them, Vauban meta. She can't kill. He can stun.

Edit: Also, funny you bring up Vivergate. So you want a repeat? Nerf the frames that help looting - of which Saryn is part of, and trigger another outrage?  I guess the recent loot (Nekros and co.) backlash was not enough for you? 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

So your response to people that affect your enjoyment now and then, whenever you are unlucky enough to be with them (unlucky to you, but to others, having a Saryn can be considered a blessing)..... is: "Lets delete their existence or their ability to play the way they like entirely".

This is one hell of an overreaction. Nobody is asking to delete Saryn's existence, nor deny these players the ability to play Warframe. The literal only request here is that those players be made to play in a way that isn't actively detrimental to the experience of others. If your definition of fun involves making the game less fun for others, then yeah, you probably shouldn't be playing Warframe altogether, but I'm happy settling with just curtailing that bit of "fun".

 

[Ikusias]

All issues with Saryn would be solved if DE Pablo actually acted on his dissatisfaction of her rework and nuked it from orbit by simply rerolling all her changes back to her 2.0 version, she was fine as she was, had more power interactions, could nuke on command at a cost and halved the lifespan of everything in sight leaving something to do to the rest of the squad.

If the person who reworked Saryn himself posts on twitter he should have just embered her and not bother with changing sphores and that all the issue was a massive and fruitless headache, maybe the rework was a huge mistake? Only no one at DE has had the guts to admit they were wrong in "fixing" what was working reasonably and delete/rollback the rework because "mu investment" from the players that jumped on Saryn's bandwagon during her rework.

I've played her in all her interactions and the one mostly balanced was her previous iteration, this Saryn feels stupidly overpowered both due to her powers and her overall stats, if you check her prime in particular is the sturdiest "caster" of the lot with health and armor on par with may frontline frames, highest energy pool of the game while many other nuke frames got kicked in the curb multiple times for the same reasons... really balanced

Ironically Saryn is also the worst foil to the rest of Pablo's brainchilds: Nidus and Harrow, that need enemies to use their kit.

Is current Saryn fun? debatable. Is fun to have her in squad? No unless you're just powerleveling on hidron or in Symaris pet slaughterdome.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Ikusias
expanded the post and corrected some errors

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Ikusias said:

Is current Saryn fun? debatable. Is fun to have her in squad? No unless you're just powerleveling on hidron or in Symaris pet slaughterdome.

disagree.  1) opinion 2) not the opinion shared by everyone.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ikusias said:

Ironically Saryn is also the worst foil to the rest of Pablo's brainchilds: Nidus and Harrow, that need enemies to use their kit.

disagree.  saryn has no affect on my nidus.  I outdamage and outkill her.  other players can too, they just can't be bothered to git gud.  game is too hard apparently... lul.

I see your concerns, but your anger is in the wrong direction like so many others.

the frame itself is fine.  the players are fine.  the playstyle is fine.

the root issues go to the core of the game, and until that is addressed nerfing saryn means functionally nothing because then the next flavor of the week will come along until either everything is nerfed to be perpetually generic.

other frames can and do trivialize content as well.  a simple melee weapon can trivialize saryn, and every frame can use that and it doesn't require ammo and can't be disarmed... so, you know, argument has no legs.

players have tools at their disposal to overcome their dislike of other players, game modes and more.  if they refuse to use those tools, that's more a problem with them than a problem with the game.

[selig_fay]

I killed more on my Titania than 16 MR Saryn on a sortie. Can I be a pro player? xD

[toxic_degenerate]

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

I killed more on my Titania than 16 MR Saryn on a sortie. Can I be a pro player? xD

you played Titania on a sortie thats pretty pro gamer moment

[selig_fay]

23 минуты назад, toxic_degenerate сказал:

you played Titania on a sortie thats pretty pro gamer moment

Given how many damage resistance mods there are in the air, Titania in normal content might be a cooler facetank than inaros. So no, I don't think there's anything special about playing as Titania on sortie. 

[Monolake]

DE keeps on making 'the game plays itself' abilities and AOE nukers. Known problem since 2013 and it only got worse. I can go nuke Hydron with Gauss lmao.

You are beating a dead horse here, nothing changed in years and nothing will change.

[Xepthrichros]

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is one hell of an overreaction. Nobody is asking to delete Saryn's existence, nor deny these players the ability to play Warframe. The literal only request here is that those players be made to play in a way that isn't actively detrimental to the experience of others. If your definition of fun involves making the game less fun for others, then yeah, you probably shouldn't be playing Warframe altogether, but I'm happy settling with just curtailing that bit of "fun".

 

You can try to frame and paraphrase your view in any way you wish and make it sound like you are doing the right thing, but a spade is still a spade. You want to kick people who do not play the same way as you out. As seen by the bold line. 

I suggest a way where both coexist. Fast nukes have their modes where they excel in. Slower interactive play can have certain modes where they excel in. The game lacks the latter, and I keep repeating we need more of that. 

You refuse to compromise. Who is overreacting again? 

[Teridax68]

22 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

You can try to frame and paraphrase your view in any way you wish and make it sound like you are doing the right thing, but a spade is still a spade. You want to kick people who do not play the same way as you out. As seen by the bold line. 

You conveniently forgot to bold that part of the sentence where I explicitly mentioned that it would specifically apply to people whose definition of fun is to grief others. Your attempt at misrepresenting me here is so obvious it's a wonder you even tried.

Quote

I suggest a way where both coexist. Fast nukes have their modes where they excel in. Slower interactive play can have certain modes where they excel in. The game lacks the latter, and I keep repeating we need more of that. 

You refuse to compromise. Who is overreacting again? 

Where exactly did I refuse to compromise here? Again, I myself suggested specific changes to Saryn that would not in fact prevent her from nuking, and I stressed at several points that I in fact like many nuke frames and wholly support their place in the game. My problem isn't with nuke frames, but with frames whose nuking is defined by constantly radially killing enemies to such an extent that they deny their teammates the ability to engage in combat at all. It is your disingenuous insistence upon framing this abusive playstyle as valid that is a refusal to listen to or even empathize at all with others. As seems to be a running trend with you, you have chosen to parachute yourself into this thread with the sole intent of attacking people you disagree with, based on a complete misunderstanding of their position.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Teridax68

[DawnFyreSon]

Shes getting reworked anyway, Pablo said on stream that its something they need to do but they are putting it off because shes really popular

 

The doublethink of some Saryn players in this thread is immense, however. We get it, being OP is fun.

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by DawnFyreSon

[Cibyllae]

51 minutes ago, DawnFyreSon said:

The doublethink of some Saryn players in this thread is immense, however. We get it, being OP is fun.

Would you be fine if they reverted her back to Saryn 2.0?

[Xepthrichros]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You conveniently forgot to bold that part of the sentence where I explicitly mentioned that it would specifically apply to people whose definition of fun is to grief others. Your attempt at misrepresenting me here is so obvious it's a wonder you even tried.

Where exactly did I refuse to compromise here? Again, I myself suggested specific changes to Saryn that would not in fact prevent her from nuking, and I stressed at several points that I in fact like many nuke frames and wholly support their place in the game. My problem isn't with nuke frames, but with frames whose nuking is defined by constantly radially killing enemies to such an extent that they deny their teammates the ability to engage in combat at all. It is your disingenuous insistence upon framing this abusive playstyle as valid that is a refusal to listen to or even empathize at all with others. As seems to be a running trend with you, you have chosen to parachute yourself into this thread with the sole intent of attacking people you disagree with, based on a complete misunderstanding of their position.

Everything you disagree with is "griefing", "abusive" etc. " or "trolling" or "whiteknighting". as you said elsewhere. Ok, let me just add a few more sensational words to your list. 

And now I will repeat myself and address your "creative" way of trying to make a playstyle sound as horrible as you can. 

If radial nuking is such a "griefing" behavior. Explain why people recruit for radial nukers for Hydron and ESO? I should not be seeing anyone ask for Saryn or similar at all.  But why is it asked for?  Explain why even in random public games, I've seen random players give the team's radial nuker or nukers  energy pizzas, or Zenurik energy regen for them, even when the radial nukers may be doing so themselves?  As if to implicitly say "hey thanks for speeding up the farm, please continue what you are doing".. Sure, some just go complete AFK or leave. But I've seen people that try to ensure the nuker never runs out of energy too.

Not everyone considers radial nukers a bad thing, or as some sort of personal attack on their own enjoyment or what not. Some people actually accept and help the radial nukers. 

Also, explain why is it when you recruit and try to say "No nukers", you have a hard time?  I know this, because I tried myself just to see how successful it would go. It wasn't. Waited 5 minutes in silence. Tried again to ask for "casual" game and someone asked me what that entails, which I said preferably no nukers. And he asks me if I have some issue. Technically, not me, I am asking for a "friend", heh. Perhaps you have better luck, who knows. But also, could it be because this is the less popular view? You want to impose a less popular thing on others.Why is it that something could be less popular? Maybe because people generally don't like it? Maybe because people want to kill fodder enemies fast, having mastered the art of killing them, which doesn't require much since the AI of the generic fodder enemy is so basic and their life is paper, and as their levels go up, they just become damage sponges, and you generally know how it goes during the first 100 hours of playing warframe and want to move on to other content like maybe Eidolons, which they have not reached yet? And they want to get the loot and make progress with completing their builds, or getting stuff to sell and earn platinum, etc.? So if you enforce an unpopular view on others and make them play your way, just who is refusing to empathize? 

Now there is a separate issue of after killing the fodder enemies and exhausting the list of good loot this game offers, we are at max power, and even when not using Saryn, we can trivialize anything with our gun and or sword, and can not die even if we take many bullets to the face thanks to effective immortality abilities, stats, and mods, and we end up dying more due to falling asleep in battle than actual difficulty (hence Space Mum: Wake up, Tenno), but this is NOT Saryn's fault. Nor the mods. Nor the rivens. Or anything else I've seen people try to scapegoat as the cause of this boredom. It is LACK OF ENDGAME CONTENT. As we progressed from MR1 to MR27, DE gave us many different ways to achieve overkill or immortality. This part is fine and good, as its part of RPG level progression mechanics. But they didn't give us enemies or modes to match, hence we remain in the state of "overkill" and "immortal" as nothing has scaled up to match us.

Easy way to solve this is to just say nerf it all. But nerfs can be perceived negatively, as disrespectful: it can cause previously strong equipment to become trash, with no recourse, no way to restore them to former glory cos the developers gutted it and no forma will ever salvage it. People can feel sleighted, regardless of "live service" terms and conditions. 

So how to restore challenge or provide interactivity (which is what you want) and hopefully new interest? Also bring new crowds to make the game even appeal to more audiences?  MORE MODES and ENEMY TYPES which can take the form of endgame content as well.  Not nerf early and midgame stuff and prolong the easy mode - we all know how to deal with these fodder, don't need to make it longer. 

And to show I empathize, I will copy and paste what I suggest as a possible way to make even the fodder enemies even more difficult to kill (hence interactive), like Hydron and other defense maps, more enjoyable to people that want it.

Here's an even more massive wall of text taken from elsewhere on the forums where I posted this. It's a spitball. One probably can add more difficulty settings in between those I put there. Also, there is that concern I've seen regarding not enough players to play games together if everyone is stratified into so many difficulty settings. This will remain a concern only if the game remains the way it does right now. If it has more difficulty settings or challenges, it will start appealing to more audiences, the community gets bigger, and each difficulty setting will eventually have their own player base and I can imagine some people choosing to play exclusively in various settings. I never played Destiny 2 but I heard from some people it has more challenge, and I also see it has more players, . They are around 147k as of the moment I just checked, and Warframe is around 33k in steam. Anyway, wall of text below

Spoiler

•  I think a difficult slider is needed to appease the community's very different  views on what they want this game to be for them.

We have a bunch that want the game to be more difficult.

We have people who want nerfs on all the press 4s.

Some want rivens gone.

Some hate power creep.

Some want skill based play.

Some want Warframe to satisfy the urge Dark Souls created within them years ago.

Then some want the game to remain easy.

They want all thing viable in all situations, fashion frame is the most important.

Some enjoy the power fantasy of decimating whole groups of enemies with pure power.

Some don't like the idea of meta.

Some like meta and understand different frames have different roles. Some frames for spy, some for ESO, some for Eidolon hunts etc.

Some ask for enemies and possibly challenging content (e.g. Orb Mother, Arbitration) to be made easier.

Some play warframe solo and are concerned how certain short-sighted nerfs affect single player play

Some understand warframe has Action RPG elements like leveling up so we have weak level enemies, high level enemies, and warframes and guns that cater to respective power levels, and bringing strong gear to a low level area would result in a steam roll. (one can kill all bosses in Dark Souls in one hit too, with sufficient leveling up, btw... warframe equivalent of leveling = mods)

Developers have difficult time catering to one group without upsetting another group. Make hard content and people ask the boss or enemy to get nerfed. Nerf a bunch of frames and get a whole lot of salty rage posts asking for undoing the nerf, making reworks, etc.

 

And now that the long "preamble" is out of the way

---------------- ACTUAL SUGGESTION STARTS HERE -------------------

 

We need a difficulty slider for all missions and content types. Note: all numbers here are just placeholders. Definitely would need tweaking based on how players perform in the modes.

I suggest: Easy, Normal, Difficult, Hell. 

You can only matchmake with people who are playing on the same difficulty setting.

Normal Mode: Basically, the game as it is right now, across the board. No changes or tweaks.

Easy Mode: Enemies nerfed, Players buffed. Orb mothers changed from being immune to abilities, to being able to get CC-ed for 20% of the actual full duration, and take 20% of ability damage, likewise for the Eidolon sentient shielding. Players get extra lives. Disruption demolisher units are more vulnerable to abilities, and move slower. Nullifier bubbles are smaller and have less HP. Less nullfiiers and energy leech eximus spawn. Even in arbitration, you are given 2 lives. Arbitration drones no longer grant immunity to abilities but reduce ability damage. Slightly increase shield and energy regen for players. More energy orbs. More time to hack in consoles. Tripping a sensor in spy vaults may not cause "data destruction imminent". BUT loot drop table will be adjusted. Rare, coveted items such as Ephemeras, and good arcanes, certain gold mods, have their CHANCE to drop halved, and the chance for the average loot is increased. You still have a chance to get the rare item as it is still in the drop table. But since it is now going to be easier for you to kill these enemies/bosses due to the easy mode, the chance is reduced. Applies to the loot obtained as rotational rewards, and also the drops from enemies e.g. Acceltra blueprint drop rate will be lowered if you play the disruption in easy mode.
Difficulty can even affect animal conservation and fishing and skateboarding. Fish move slower. Animals spook less easily. But rate of rare fish or animals appearing is reduced. Skateboard racing time longer, but points and affinity earned is less.

Difficult Mode: Enemies buffed. They get slightly higher fire rate. More armor or shields. And take innate 20% less damage from nuking abilities, and 10% less CC duration from CC effects. Enemies will always survive an initial ability cast. I.e. if fodder Hydron unit is hit by Saryn's spores, their health drops to 1, and to be finished off, has to be hit by a second ability cast such as Miasma or another player's ability, maybe, Pull from Mag, or just a bullet or slash from a zaw. Animals in conservation are more sensitive and alert, they detect you more easily. Fish swim faster. Skateboard race time duration lower.  More nullies spawn. More energy leech eximus spawn. Arc trap radius on grineer tilesets increased.  Enemy vision detection range increased. Hacking time stricter. I can see certain forum mains using Difficult Mode on Hydron just from all the times I read people complaining of 4-to-win in fodder farming tilesets.  For the trouble of playing in difficult mode... Chance of good loot increased, including better drop chances for the relics of the current Prime Access, or relics containing items from the Vault unsealed. Increased chance for Ephemeras and other rare things by 1 or 2% from their current chance.

Hell mode: Enemies buffed further. Grineers get shields in addition to their usual armor. Corpus get armor in addition to usual shields. They take 50% less damage from nukes, and CC last 20% shorter. Expect more Bursa, Corpus Techs, Heavy Gunners, Arsons, Bombards, Noxes, Ancient Healers, Leech Eximus, Nullifiers. Nullifier bubbles bigger. Leech auras reach further. Enemy guns have partial damage reduction bypass, so yes, even your Iron Skin, armor, will not utterly trivialize threat or grant effective immortality. Even stricter hacking time. Disruption demolishers run faster. Arbitration drones HP doubled. Animals detect you from even further away. Skateboarding requires perfection and mastery of the route. Fish are constantly panicking the moment they see your silhouette over the water. Orb mother health doubled. Sentient shielding doubled. Triple the number of Vomvalyst spawning and they heal the Eidolon often. Enemies will definitely NOT fall for any kind of camping tactics in survival and instead stay far away from your desired walkway. Player max energy reduced by 20%. Player energy regen from orbs reduced by 20%. Player movement reduced by 20%. Extra lives reduced by 1, regardless of Arcanes  equipped or not. Operator to Warframe has built in cooldown and cannot spam 5 repeatedly. Chance of good loot further increased and quantity also increased, including even better drop chances for the relics of the current Prime Access, or relics containing items from the Vault unsealed, with occasionally 2x relic dropping at one rotation. The mission will take longer, be more stressful and more risk of failure, but the reward will hopefully compensate. 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[DawnFyreSon]

Jesus, why do you feel so strongly that you need to write walls of text for this... I wish I had this kind of conviction for my thesis...

The crux of the matter is simple, Saryn is OP at what she does and will eventually be brought in line, everyone: players and developers agree on that, except certain players that enjoy her OPness (perfectly understandable). Also, because some people seem to misunderstand this, she isnt OP  because she can do something, she is OP because she is so much better at it than any other frame, balance cuts both ways. For every Saryn that feels like a god there is an ember that feels like poop. Thats why nerfs/balance are needed

Also it doesnt matter what *I* want, Saryn's nerf is coming when Pablo finds the time (whenever that is....)

Edited October 17, 2019 by DawnFyreSon

[Aesthier]

On 2019-10-15 at 7:15 PM, Teridax68 said:

On 2019-10-15 at 11:04 AM, Aesthier said:

I never said she wasn't designed for group play. Please show me the reference for that. She actually works quite well in groups.

That's easy:

On 2019-10-15 at 8:04 AM, Aesthier said:

I think that the disconnect is that you believe that Warframe was made only for people who group when it was actually made from the very beginning to support play for both types of players those who like to group and those who like to solo.

This was, by the way, in response to me saying that because Warframe is a multiplayer game, its frames need to be designed not to harm their teammates' experience, so it stands to reason that you were trying to excuse her multiplayer problems by arguing that she wasn't designed for group play. Backtracking here does nothing to hide the fact that you've both implicitly acknowledged and tried to excuse her ability to deny her allies a core part of Warframe's gameplay.

First off your conclusion that I was arguing that she wasn't designed for group play is entirely incorrect. Also I never asked you to conclude anything I simply asked you to provide a reference where I "stated" she wasn't designed for group play. Which you have failed to do and quite honestly can't because I never made such a statement.

As far as what I was referencing in the second quote was the following statement:

On 2019-10-15 at 8:04 AM, Aesthier said:

On 2019-10-15 at 6:57 AM, Teridax68 said:

Warframe is a literal multiplayer game. If a frame's gameplay is harmful to multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game, that frame's design needs to change, not the entire rest of the playerbase. You are grasping at straws.

I think that the disconnect is that you believe that Warframe was made only for people who group when it was actually made from the very beginning to support play for both types of players those who like to group and those who like to solo.

I was referring to the first sentence in your above post because it is the premise on which the second sentence is built.

If warframe was a multiplayer only game then your assertion that any frame that is harmful to multiplayer gameplay needs to change as opposed to the entire playerbase changing might hold some water.

For Warframe to be a multiplayer only game it would mean that players would be forced to group to complete any content. Players are not forced to group at all and content can be done in a group or solo as the player sees fit. Even if a frame was harmful to the multiplayer side of the house it wouldn't mean that she was harmful to the solo-player side of the house thus your use of "entire playerbase" is misleading at best and blatantly incorrect at worst.

Now for your second assertion.

On 2019-10-15 at 6:57 AM, Teridax68 said:

Warframe is a literal multiplayer game. If a frame's gameplay is harmful to multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game, that frame's design needs to change, not the entire rest of the playerbase. You are grasping at straws.

I would gladly accept the bold section above as correct if the assertion held true in an absolute or majority sense. If a frames gameplay is harmful to multiplayer gameplay in a multiplayer game (which Warframe obviously contains portions of) , that frame needs to change.

Ok so lets look at that.

Your posts and the posts of others in multiple rework Saryn type threads provide evidence that Saryn's kit provides a definite hindrance to a portion of the populace where group play is concerned by over limiting the amount of enemies available for other group members to kill within what they feel is a reasonable distance.

There are also other players' posts in these multiple rework Saryn threads that provide evidence that Saryn's kit provides a definite benefit to a portion of the populace where group play is concerned by increasing the killing efficiency and overall kill numbers, among other benefits.

So we can see that Saryn's kit is not harmful to "all" multiplayer gameplay however it does negatively effect the multiplayer gameplay for some portion of the playerbase.

Whether (thank you for the corrective spelling suggestion btw.) that requires a change to Saryn's kit or not depends upon several factors two of which are; how many players are currently affected in a negative manner vs the number of players who are currently affected in a positive manner, and what other alternative measures currently exist or can be created with minimal negative impact to the playerbase as a whole.

I would like to add a side note here as I have been noticing an error that many in this thread have made that serves as an outright misrepresentation concerning the populace at large. That would be the use of "everyone" or "everyone else" in the prosecution or defense of a perspective without the use of descriptive limitations such as "everyone who uses the party tool" vs "everyone" (without any further descriptive limitations). The fact is none of us speaks for everyone in Warframe. We speak on our own behalf and there will most assuredly be some portion of the population that shares a similar or even the same perspective inside these threads and even beyond the forums. However, however large or small that population may be at the end of the day we cannot claim to "know" whether that population is in the minority or majority outside the confines of these forums. Thus for the sake of clarity if you must use these terms please use descriptive limiters to identify which groups you are talking about if you want to keep any measure or believe-ability.

 

Now back to the discussion:

So the first point is that Saryn's kit should be changed to eliminate the "possibility" of harm to multiplayer gameplay.

So what portions of the playerbase would implementing this change affect (in a positive or negative manner is not the argument yet we are just looking at those who would be affected).  Anyone who plays Saryn or groups with Saryn after the change would be affected. (In my opinion this number would be massive compared to the number not affected).  The only players I can think of that would not be affected would be those who either don't acquire Saryn or never play her and are solo only players on top of that. (Maybe they quit before then or maybe she just doesn't appeal to them at all.)

How many would be affected by increased party tool controls?  Anyone who uses the party tool to randomly fill out groups or randomly find groups to play in would be affected.  Anyone who plays solo only or only invites friends or only uses targeted invites would not be affected.

Once you have an honest assessment of those numbers then you can begin to break down what portions of those numbers are affected in a negative or positive way. You would need those numbers for a decision based on the majority because both those situations and populations currently exist.

Regardless which change is chosen some population is going to be inconvenienced. Claims of "massively inconvenienced" sound like hype to me as no one wants to be inconvenienced no matter the degree. And both sides will claim the amount they suffer is the worst.  I would agree that out of all the options, besides changing Saryn's kit, using the recruiting chat to find group members sounds like the most frustrating. Hence why I suggested the use of friends or providing feedback on a better party tool control measures.

The issue I see is that you are unwilling to even discuss these and instead dismiss them outright, demanding at the same time that Saryn kit changes would benefit "everyone" (which they clearly wouldn't). Yes changes to Saryn's kit would clearly benefit those who don't enjoy playing her or with her in groups due to her current kit state but what portion of the populace do these players truly represent? Again only DE knows.

 

While we are on the topic of populations:

On 2019-10-15 at 7:15 PM, Teridax68 said:

Quote

So far I am seeing only a vocal few that have problems with Saryn. How many people in this thread think  she is fine compared to how many are complaining that she isn't?  Are threads representative of the entire populace? Where does that line lay?  I believe only DE knows but I also think you are falling prey to the idea that your opinions are the opinions of the majority. But that is an entirely different argument altogether.

Perhaps I am, but my opinion is supported by the fact that there is a majority of people here who are in fact criticizing Saryn, despite the attempts by a minority as vocal as they are tiny to clog up this thread with white knighting. Moreover, as a quick search should indicate, this is by no means the only thread criticizing Saryn, and the result are the same with entirely different samples of people, and so across every Warframe-themed discussion space. If DE thinks differently, I'd be interested as to where they'd be getting their information from, and even more so as to how you'd know DE's opinion any better than me.

When I stated that I am only seeing a vocal few that have problems with Saryn I was referring to the fact that the amount that are vocally requesting for changes to Saryn, in the forums, are only a few out of the entire populace of Warframe players. It makes sense that only a potion of the players who are displeased with something in a game will actually take the time to post about it in the forums. Thus the number of people who are displeased with a specific mechanic or item in the game will most likely be larger than the population posting about it. It also makes sense that fewer players, who are not displeased about a specific mechanic and enjoy it, will come to the forums to post in defenses of that mechanic because they are to busy enjoying the game. Those that do come to post in defense of those mechanics do so to ensure that their side is represented and that changes are not haphazardly made based on input that is one sided only.  So yes while I have not counted I would agree that it is likely that, in the confines of Saryn rework threads, those desiring change outnumber those desiring no change. My point however is that just because those desiring change outnumber those desiring no change (within the confines of rework threads) does not mean that the opposite is not true when expanded beyond the confines of the forums to the entire player population as a whole. As far as DE's opinion is concerned you would be correct that neither of us knows anymore than the other and I never suggested such. I do see where it would be beneficial to know the actual statistics but I don't think either of us will actually be exposed to those.

At the end of the Day DE will most likely change or not change Saryn based upon the statistical majority, only they are privy to, or based upon their future vision of Saryn or perhaps both.

Until then I would expect you to hold to your guns as I will mine.

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Aesthier

[DawnFyreSon]

45 minutes ago, Aesthier said:

When I stated that I am only seeing a vocal few that have problems with Saryn I was referring to the fact that the amount that are vocally requesting for changes to Saryn, in the forums, are only a few out of the entire populace of Warframe players. It makes sense that only a potion of the players who are displeased with something in a game will actually take the time to post about it in the forums. Thus the number of people who are displeased with a specific mechanic or item in the game will most likely be larger than the population posting about it. It also makes sense that fewer players, who are not displeased about a specific mechanic and enjoy it, will come to the forums to post in defenses of that mechanic because they are to busy enjoying the game. Those that do come to post in defense of those mechanics do so to ensure that their side is represented and that changes are not haphazardly made based on input that is one sided only.  So yes while I have not counted I would agree that it is likely that, in the confines of Saryn rework threads, those desiring change outnumber those desiring no change. My point however is that just because those desiring change outnumber those desiring no change (within the confines of rework threads) does not mean that the opposite is not true when expanded beyond the confines of the forums to the entire player population as a whole. As far as DE's opinion is concerned you would be correct that neither of us knows anymore than the other and I never suggested such. I do see where it would be beneficial to know the actual statistics but I don't think either of us will actually be exposed to those.

At the end of the Day DE will most likely change or not change Saryn based upon the statistical majority, only they are privy to, or based upon their future vision of Saryn or perhaps both.

Until then I would expect you to hold to your guns as I will mine.

Sorry to break it to you but the devs do feel Saryn is in need of another rework at some point. Pablo (whos responsible for most reworks said so in his stream)

[Morticoccus]

11 minutes ago, DawnFyreSon said:

Sorry to break it to you but the devs do feel Saryn is in need of another rework at some point. Pablo (whos responsible for most reworks said so in his stream)

I am perfectly fine with a rework as long as the frame is still useful and more importantly fun to play afterwards.

The problem with reworks designed to quiet vocal opposition down however is that they tend to not be.

[DawnFyreSon]

Personally, I hope she gets embered asap because I really dislike how she plays and looks and would prefer to see less Saryns in normal gameplay.

But thats just me, it will probably be a year+ before he gets around to retouching her

[Cibyllae]

7 minutes ago, Morticoccus said:

The problem with reworks designed to quiet vocal opposition down however is that they tend to not be.

I agree. People that advocate for a third rework conveniently forget that we are here now because people complained in the first place.

[Cibyllae]

2 minutes ago, DawnFyreSon said:

Personally, I hope she gets embered asap because I really dislike how she plays and looks and would prefer to see less Saryns in normal gameplay

How would you change her?

[Ikusias]

10 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

How would you change her?

Rollback to Saryn 2.0 and change back of her stats to her old ones: high life, low armor, average energy

[MegaloStrikeBack]

I think you should stop asking for nerfs because you just get her destroyed, I don't mind Saryns at all. I love that they can carry you through ESO, which is literally the best way to level up weapons in this game. If you wanna kill everything yourself, play solo instead of asking the DE to ruin the frame for everyone, which will happen if you keep asking for reworks or nerfs.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, MegaloStrikeBack said:

I think you should stop asking for nerfs because you just get her destroyed, I don't mind Saryns at all. I love that they can carry you through ESO, which is literally the best way to level up weapons in this game. If you wanna kill everything yourself, play solo instead of asking the DE to ruin the frame for everyone, which will happen if you keep asking for reworks or nerfs.

buffs and nerfs are an important part of balancing a game. ill say it again. if a game is multiplayer/online coop, it needs to have balance passes.