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Jarriaga

Second proposed Valkyr rework (Please kill Ripline, make Warcry her core ability)

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Why does everyone always want to remove the most fun parts of the game in favor of stat buffing S#&$? Yawn. Leave ripline alone or give it a swinging arc.

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what if ripline worked more like Nidus' Larva but centered on Valkyr? As a melee frame it would basically serve enemies up on silver plater. 

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В 07.10.2019 в 22:51, (PS4)thegarada сказал:

I have to agree with JarriagaWukong plays similarly to Valkyr, but overall.. better. It is not just Wukong, couple of the frames that fill into the same role(s) out performs Valkyr. Tanking wise, she is not the best. Damage wise, she is acceptable, but no where close to be good. Group utility, limited. She has no place in ESO. No place Eildlon hunts. Arbitrations, good solo, but again, has no role in a group. Fast runs? There are faster frames with much better AOE damage. Only place were she can somewhat hold, is weird Sorties. But even then, you can just use Wukong.

Sure, Valkyr theme is unique, but she is definitely being left behind, and has 2 useless skills. And if melee 3.0 further increases melee damage output, Valkyr will lose further ground.

I've been talking about that for years but too many people just tell me that she is fine and she need no changes...

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8 hours ago, Gnohme said:

Why does everyone always want to remove the most fun parts of the game in favor of stat buffing S#&$? Yawn. Leave ripline alone or give it a swinging arc.

"Fun" at the expense of a well-rounded kit is not worth it in the current meta. It has to be useful and fit a role you don't already have by default  (Operator mobility). At least Nova is a team transport, but ripline shows it was designed before Operators were a thing.

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5 hours ago, NoLazyShadow said:

I've been talking about that for years but too many people just tell me that she is fine and she need no changes...

I used to be on that camp. I used to defend Hysteria's invulnerability as a concession so the rest of the kit remained as it was for balancing purposes "because Hysteria was too powerful". That statement used to be true years ago, but not anymore. Zaws exist. Redeemer Prime exists. Gram Prime exists. And they scale well beyond Hysteria.

If any other frame can outclass the "Melee Queen" in melee damage when using weapons that are accessible to everyone, I am having a hard time finding a relevant or dedicated role for her.

Edited by Jarriaga
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Ripline would be an extremely fun ability if the cost was reduced, the enemy yank didn't lock you down with a slow animation, and if it pulled you all the way to your target instead of stopping after like half a second of movement.

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On 2019-10-12 at 9:10 AM, Gnohme said:

Why does everyone always want to remove the most fun parts of the game in favor of stat buffing S#&$? Yawn. Leave ripline alone or give it a swinging arc.

It is 100% useless. It does no damage. Has no reason to use in combat. And the parkour does not remotely need it. Why not have a useful skill instead?

What is the fun in having something that you never use?!

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Alrighty then, here's my two cents on the subject : Valkyr's kit betrays how old and outdated she is in terms of mechanics used, and hasn't been tended to while the game changed drastically in some ways. That's pretty much the same problem almost every older frame suffers from really, outdated mechanics.

 

- Ripline : utterly pointless when it comes to adding mobility (though it can end up hitting surprisingly hard, if you spam it enough and manage to keep the stacking damage bonus up anyway...). Frames themselves have parkour and bullet jumps, and operators have "dashing-all-over-the-place" levels of mobility. The only viable option I can see is an entirely new ability. We can keep the "spamming makes it better" mechanic for said new ability. That or adding some crazy mobility sh!t to it, because wasting energy to get a pathetic amount of momentum is just sad.

- Warcry : the fact that the armor bonus only scales off BASE armor and the devs haven't even considered it to be a problem since its creation, years ago, still baffles me to this day. The attack speed bonus is neat and frees up mod slots on melee weapons, and the slow on enemies, if range didn't end up gutted to get reasonable amounts of duration and strength on most builds, would be useful for the more annoying enemy types, provided they're not immune to it of course. Also making the buff reliant on allies being in your immediate vicinity to benefit from it is just... just what were you thinking dear devs?

- Paralysis : Useful to get easy finishers and stop enemies that aren't outright immune to it in their tracks. Range is not so great though, and once again most builds gut ability range in favor of duration/strength, and let's not even mention damage scaling off Valkyr's shield, that part is too sad. Duration of stun shouldn't need an augment to be remotely useful.

-Hysteria : Ah, Hysteria. This one's always fun to try and balance. Not. Invulnerability is neat. Scratch that, it's an unfortunate necessity when you have to French kiss enemies to be able to hit them with that absence of range and horrible moveset and they can eviscerate you through your armor. Also... where are the sweeping arcs with them claws? The crazy mobility one would expect of an ability forcing you to use melee so as to keep up with enemy numbers? You could do so much better dear devs! The only attacks I use are the slide attack, because it at least deals decent damage and can hit multiple enemies easily, and the slam attack, to get the prompted ground finishers (can't pass up 6400% bonus damage). How can she not have a moveset that is at least decent? HOW? As for damage, I would make every attack deal a low minimum percentage of the enemy's maximum health on top of the base damage, unaffected by Power Strength of course, or maybe make every attack on the same enemy deal more damage than the last, or see your damage go up as time goes on, like energy consumption. That way it would remain effective AND add some sort of interesting gameplay with the damage and energy drain working together. It would give us the opportunity to choose between energy conservation or big haymakers. Right now I only use Hysteria for a few seconds here and there, mostly to change position safely or focus one target in a sea of enemies. Not feeling very "ultimate-y" personally.

Other than that she's fine really.

Edited by Marthrym
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For Hysteria, I had an idea, what if we remove the talons completely? Instead have Hysteria increase the melee damage by 30/60/90/120%. This way it would work and scale much better since it is based on your melee weapon damage/range, for better or worse. 

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OR just reverse Riplines enemy and Valkyr pull strength (enemies dont get yeeted but lose momentum 1/3 of the range in like valkyr does; valkyr doesnt lose momentum 1/3 of the range in but instead gets chukked in the direction she dragged herself with a bit of a arc) to let her spiderman 2/spiderman web of shadows around and instead you make Hysteria actually incentivize to kill enemies by replacing its energy drain and aoe check with invulnerable and lifesteal on claws kept version of A2 Berserk state from nier automata (she loses hp as it goes on, minimal at first and influenced by efficiency AND ARMOR instead of being a flat 35% of damage enemy would deal no matter your defense, more as you store damage that starts seeping into the cost, you remove stored damage by lifestealing while at full hp/overhealing and getting kills, you have to keep attacking to be invul and not drain yourself to 1 hp and get knocked down or turn the ability off only when there actually are no enemies around).

The functionality of her 1-3 have the correct effect (even if not the correct numbers balance) for their intent, its just 4 that makes the GOD DAMN BERSERKER FRAME be encouraged to play in the most cowardly anti-combat way possible.

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On 2019-10-12 at 4:50 PM, (NSW)Badger said:

what if ripline worked more like Nidus' Larva but centered on Valkyr? As a melee frame it would basically serve enemies up on silver plater. 

Tho this is a good Augment replacement idea for the current actually useless (unlike ripline itself) augment for it.

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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

OR just reverse Riplines enemy and Valkyr pull strength (enemies dont get yeeted but lose momentum 1/3 of the range in like valkyr does; valkyr doesnt lose momentum 1/3 of the range in but instead gets chukked in the direction she dragged herself with a bit of a arc) to let her spiderman 2/spiderman web of shadows around and instead you make Hysteria actually incentivize to kill enemies by replacing its energy drain and aoe check with invulnerable and lifesteal on claws kept version of A2 Berserk state from nier automata (she loses hp as it goes on, minimal at first and influenced by efficiency AND ARMOR instead of being a flat 35% of damage enemy would deal no matter your defense, more as you store damage that starts seeping into the cost, you remove stored damage by lifestealing while at full hp/overhealing and getting kills, you have to keep attacking to be invul and not drain yourself to 1 hp and get knocked down or turn the ability off only when there actually are no enemies around).

The functionality of her 1-3 have the correct effect (even if not the correct numbers balance) for their intent, its just 4 that makes the GOD DAMN BERSERKER FRAME be encouraged to play in the most cowardly anti-combat way possible.

This would not resolve the issues with the claws. I have been playing mostly melee with Galantine prime lately. With the right mods (including blood rush and weeping wounds), I was dealing much more damage than the claws, with much better range. The issue has very little to do with energy cost and everything to do with damage and range. While may not be clear early on, with the right melee weapon and mods it is very clear the best way to play Valkyr is to not use hysteria at all for anything other than once in a while heal. And honestly, with magus repair and naramon, I stopped using hysteria completely. It is waste of time and energy. And this is very unlikely to change with melee 3.0. If anything, it will be much worse.

The claws, not the energy, stored damage or heal, are the problem. Everything else about the skill works fine. Removing the claws and getting melee damage instead, will be a major improvement. 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

This would not resolve the issues with the claws. I have been playing mostly melee with Galantine prime lately. With the right mods (including blood rush and weeping wounds), I was dealing much more damage than the claws, with much better range. The issue has very little to do with energy cost and everything to do with damage and range. While may not be clear early on, with the right melee weapon and mods it is very clear the best way to play Valkyr is to not use hysteria at all for anything other than once in a while heal. And honestly, with magus repair and naramon, I stopped using hysteria completely. It is waste of time and energy. And this is very unlikely to change with melee 3.0. If anything, it will be much worse.

The claws, not the energy, stored damage or heal, are the problem. Everything else about the skill works fine. Removing the claws and getting melee damage instead, will be a major improvement. 

Except they are objectively not because they have the damage to more than make up for it (they had before with just combo and raw crit, they still do now with gladiator set effect... well compared to pre zaw/kitgun era top of the line at least). You deciding to build around warcry and using hysteria as a heal button instead of proper ability even speaks of the fact that the mechanics behind hysteria dont work

Not that id be against a exilus augment that lets you lose the claws and their lifesteal for using the normal melee in hysteria (and in my hypothetical version, only removing stored damage on kills if you dont mod in lifesteal in some way) as some people clearly do not like short range weapons no matter what.

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On 2019-10-03 at 2:32 PM, peterc3 said:

Also fully intended. You are not supposed to keep it up forever. Anything short of invincibility is a heavy nerf and no, having Rage work won't make up for that.

to be fair, if you use the aim function in hysteria without turning the power off, you not only lose the invincibility but rage and adrenaline will work now and counteract the drain of hysteria.

 

combined with a hysteria build using it's augment and you can get some impressive range and longevity out of the power.

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On 2019-10-14 at 2:30 AM, Gr1mwlf said:

Ripline would be an extremely fun ability if the cost was reduced, the enemy yank didn't lock you down with a slow animation, and if it pulled you all the way to your target instead of stopping after like half a second of movement.

this.

Valkyr has good stats, a good 2nd ability and her 4th is a "panic button" that works quite well. her 1st could be fun but requires too much energy and has a too long casting time. so 15 energy and halved casting time would make it nice.

Then about her kit, she has the same issue than Chroma : either I go strength / duration, or I try to have some range. imho her "warcry" should work the same as nova 4th or Mag 3rd : the area should be affected by both range and duration, so that you could buff your mates. Not too much because the slow would be OP.

Her 3rd is meh, it's "fun" but it's not a "warframe ability", it's at most a gimmick that would fit as an additionnal effect while casting her 4th. and thus she needs another 3rd.

Edited by MonsterOfMyOwn

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8 hours ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

this.

Valkyr has good stats, a good 2nd ability and her 4th is a "panic button" that works quite well. her 1st could be fun but requires too much energy and has a too long casting time. so 15 energy and halved casting time would make it nice.

Then about her kit, she has the same issue than Chroma : either I go strength / duration, or I try to have some range. imho her "warcry" should work the same as nova 4th or Mag 3rd : the area should be affected by both range and duration, so that you could buff your mates. Not too much because the slow would be OP.

Her 3rd is meh, it's "fun" but it's not a "warframe ability", it's at most a gimmick that would fit as an additionnal effect while casting her 4th. and thus she needs another 3rd.

Energy isnt the issue compared to pull strength, it doesnt pull you all the way and kill momentum 1/3 the range it while it chuks enemies 5 rooms behind you instead of bringing them to you/the 2 sides of the effect are literally reverse of what they should be.

As for the 2 and 3, if touching 2 then id put emphasis on the underused/underappreciated slow portion/drop its "buff other frames too" and just make the slow go along with her/be a aura for the duration as some stats balance/cost for benefits is the point of the modding setup we have, while 3 works as its own stun opener (tho how it will work with the data spike/roman dagger finishers is under question) while for other setups can be ignored or used as a aoe pull tool with the augment and as such attaching it to Hysteria very much wouldnt work.

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14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except they are objectively not because they have the damage to more than make up for it (they had before with just combo and raw crit, they still do now with gladiator set effect... well compared to pre zaw/kitgun era top of the line at least). You deciding to build around warcry and using hysteria as a heal button instead of proper ability even speaks of the fact that the mechanics behind hysteria dont work

Not that id be against a exilus augment that lets you lose the claws and their lifesteal for using the normal melee in hysteria (and in my hypothetical version, only removing stored damage on kills if you dont mod in lifesteal in some way) as some people clearly do not like short range weapons no matter what.

Regardless of where we go in the future, as of right now, the claws are the biggest weakness of hysteria. I used to play hysteria as damage for month, and completely convinced that it worked better than melee. But after I had Galantine with the right maxed mods and naramon nearly maxed out on the important stuff, the difference in effectiveness is an order of magnitude higher. There is no way around it. And with magus repair on my operator, I stopped using hysteria all together. Hysteria still works well on a single target (especially if your combo counter on melee is below 2.5). But once your melee counter gets there, opening hysteria is a waste of time and energy. 

And to be clear, if it was not already, I am talking primarily post level 80 territory (level 3 sortie and higher). How things work in level 50.. who cares lol. You should be play a caster frame and 1 kill half the screen in one shot anyway.

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Regardless of where we go in the future, as of right now, the claws are the biggest weakness of hysteria. I used to play hysteria as damage for month, and completely convinced that it worked better than melee. But after I had Galantine with the right maxed mods and naramon nearly maxed out on the important stuff, the difference in effectiveness is an order of magnitude higher. There is no way around it. And with magus repair on my operator, I stopped using hysteria all together. Hysteria still works well on a single target (especially if your combo counter on melee is below 2.5). But once your melee counter gets there, opening hysteria is a waste of time and energy. 

And to be clear, if it was not already, I am talking primarily post level 80 territory (level 3 sortie and higher). How things work in level 50.. who cares lol. You should be play a caster frame and 1 kill half the screen in one shot anyway.

More range is always more effective vs crowds, but its not actually better, Claw slides and charges have a shorter kill time than broken bull galatine against a level 100 eximus tusk napalm (corrosive on both, glad mods on sent gun for both, BR replaced with True Steel/the basic *@##$ crit for claws).

Also you cant say regardless of the future when the melee changes are not even a week away. Again a augment mod could work for picking up normal melee in hysteria as a option/sidegrade, but flat nerfing the ability in both all potential and current use by removing the claws overall is just a objectively wrong/bad opinion.

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2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

More range is always more effective vs crowds, but its not actually better, Claw slides and charges have a shorter kill time than broken bull galatine against a level 100 eximus tusk napalm (corrosive on both, glad mods on sent gun for both, BR replaced with True Steel/the basic *@##$ crit for claws).

Also you cant say regardless of the future when the melee changes are not even a week away. Again a augment mod could work for picking up normal melee in hysteria as a option/sidegrade, but flat nerfing the ability in both all potential and current use by removing the claws overall is just a objectively wrong/bad opinion.

Go to sanctum. Have Galantine with the following mods:

Primed pressure point, organ shatterer, blood rush, weeping wounds, the 120% slash damage mod, berserk, condition over load and drifting contact. Summon level 100 Napalam. Get to 2.5x. Use Naramon. Just go void mode for 2 secs with maxed critical damage. Attack for 2-3 secs. Massive red critic + much higher bleeding. Everything is dead. 

Btw, what really destroys level 100+ armored eximus is the bleeding. A high slash weapon with weeping wounds is not only king, it completely nullifies everything else. That may change with the melee update. Will see. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Go to sanctum. Have Galantine with the following mods:

Primed pressure point, organ shatterer, blood rush, weeping wounds, the 120% slash damage mod, berserk, condition over load and drifting contact. Summon level 100 Napalam. Get to 2.5x. Use Naramon. Just go void mode for 2 secs with maxed critical damage. Attack for 2-3 secs. Massive red critic + much higher bleeding. Everything is dead. 

Btw, what really destroys level 100+ armored eximus is the bleeding. A high slash weapon with weeping wounds is not only king, it completely nullifies everything else. That may change with the melee update. Will see. 

OR just skip the 12 seconds of prep time and slide 3 times into the enemy with claws or do 1 block combo and then the dash charge (or in case of 8 spawn or full 20 spawn slide 5 times and do 1 leg slam charge attack to finish off the survivor vs the 1 complete broken bull spin where the enemies have to not move away from eachother for it to be just the 1 as you need to hit 2-3 on each rotation for em to die).


P.S. Yes. twas same setup only instead of weeping, slash and CO went for rad or corrosive and prime reach (and ofc true steel instead of BR on claws as exalted cant use aco mods), as in practical play reach is likely to be on any melee and tho CO with other source supplying more than just slash proc wil do more than corrosives armor ignore of the elemental against the armor type it gets its armor ignore effect for, it does require adding guns and would actually bias it more to the claws which can get a guaranteed proc ontop of its elemetal choice/comparing galatine with 1 proc vs claws with 2-3 would be unfair.

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1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

OR just skip the 12 seconds of prep time and slide 3 times into the enemy with claws or do 1 block combo and then the dash charge (or in case of 8 spawn or full 20 spawn slide 5 times and do 1 leg slam charge attack to finish off the survivor vs the 1 complete broken bull spin where the enemies have to not move away from eachother for it to be just the 1 as you need to hit 2-3 on each rotation for em to die).


P.S. Yes. twas same setup only instead of weeping, slash and CO went for rad or corrosive and prime reach (and ofc true steel instead of BR on claws as exalted cant use aco mods), as in practical play reach is likely to be on any melee and tho CO with other source supplying more than just slash proc wil do more than corrosives armor ignore of the elemental against the armor type it gets its armor ignore effect for, it does require adding guns and would actually bias it more to the claws which can get a guaranteed proc ontop of its elemetal choice/comparing galatine with 1 proc vs claws with 2-3 would be unfair.

Just keep in mind, the 2.5x is not something you have to continuously build. Getting to 3x and staying there is easy with Naramon. Even without void mode, you need 3-4 secs tops to hit all units. Compare that to claws slide attack, where you will only hit 2-3 units. You will need to do twice, which is not fast. You will need at least 8-10 secs to do something that can be done in half that time. And you will run most likely corrosive, so alloy armor will probably be a problem, versus a slash melee setup, which is universal. Only advantage hysteria currently offers is the invincibility. Everything else can be done easier without it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Just keep in mind, the 2.5x is not something you have to continuously build. Getting to 3x and staying there is easy with Naramon. Even without void mode, you need 3-4 secs tops to hit all units. Compare that to claws slide attack, where you will only hit 2-3 units. You will need to do twice, which is not fast. You will need at least 8-10 secs to do something that can be done in half that time. And you will run most likely corrosive, so alloy armor will probably be a problem, versus a slash melee setup, which is universal. Only advantage hysteria currently offers is the invincibility. Everything else can be done easier without it.

It has higher damage but lower range, it has built in lifesteal (which tbf is useless because of the badly designed damage store/energy cost increase on invul instead of using lifesteal along with the invul to make a drain/combat encouraging playstyle) with strong multihits and easy finisher access at the cost of being exalted only, making it slash focused is lower dps but still possible tho it doesnt need it due to said higher damage and finisher access. It doesnt need ramp, but still does ramp up as well as normal weapons due to difference in base crit and base damage.

Again the only point that can be made is "your preference doesnt align with the ability" to which the answer should be another augment (same as what atlas should get for his 4 with the pvp augment instead of getting a "worse rumbler", now with derpy slam back as on demand ability that DE forgot to re-implement during the rework and as zephyr should with her tornados giving her 1 properly controlled one that drags enemies), not a nerf to the ability itself.

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On 2019-10-21 at 12:03 PM, (PS4)thegarada said:

For Hysteria, I had an idea, what if we remove the talons completely? Instead have Hysteria increase the melee damage by 30/60/90/120%. This way it would work and scale much better since it is based on your melee weapon damage/range, for better or worse. 

That could also work as well, although I'd go with higher numbers. 

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6 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

That could also work as well, although I'd go with higher numbers. 

Indeed. We could go a bit higher. 

In addition, this could be done through an augment mod, where you do have the option of having the claws or having melee weapon with hysteria. Options are always good. 

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