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Jarriaga

Second proposed Valkyr rework (Please kill Ripline, make Warcry her core ability)

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Feels like I made a comparable post a year ago. The reality is: Her abilities are an absolute trash fire.

  • Ripline is useless
  • Warcry has no right to be so incredibly clunky, it's buffs have virtually no effect on most allies and it's debuff is borderline unusable.
  • Paralysis is trash. I could elaborate, but it isn't even worth the effort. At least it's almost free to use.
  • Hysteria is badly balanced (it should not be dependent on energy), and completely useless once you have a good melee weapon with Life Strike.

You could make Warcry only affect herself and delete all other abilities - it would make little difference. If you think that's good design... I hardly even care anymore.

The next patch will (I assume) improve her claws, so that's something.

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On 2019-10-27 at 11:05 AM, Traumtulpe said:

You could make Warcry only affect herself and delete all other abilities - it would make little difference.

That's why she's often called a one trick pony.

On 2019-10-27 at 11:05 AM, Traumtulpe said:

If you think that's good design... I hardly even care anymore.

Indeed. I am puzzled as to why people are OK with her kit being in the state that it currently is because "Hysteria is strong". You are losing a lot more than what you are gaining when considering the current state of the game, current frame design, current weapon options, and current available tools.

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Rip Line needs to have a faster animation and zip faster like in Marvel Spider-Man game on ps4. Paralysis should be changed and made into an ability that sacrifices shields for energy.

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3 hours ago, KenthNisshoku said:

Rip Line needs to have a faster animation and zip faster like in Marvel Spider-Man game on ps4.

That sounds like a meme ability.

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

That sounds like a meme ability.

how is it a meme ability exactly?

it's more of a animation/speed/mobility buff suggestion.

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3 minutes ago, KenthNisshoku said:

how is it a meme ability exactly?

Because it serves little to no purpose for combat, team support, traversal (You have the operator dash for free at all times) and the point of reference for improvements is making it "fun" for fooling around like Spider-Man at the cost of instead having something useful for higher levels? How is that not a meme ability?

No improvement to animation or cast time is going to change that. At the core of its design, it was made when Operators did not exist. It made sense 4 years ago, but not today.

Edited by Jarriaga
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12 hours ago, KenthNisshoku said:

how is it a meme ability exactly?

it's more of a animation/speed/mobility buff suggestion.

Cuz it serves no purpose. The mobility is provides is pointless. And that is not inline with the remainder of Valkyr set.

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12 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Because it serves little to no purpose for combat, team support, traversal (You have the operator dash for free at all times) and the point of reference for improvements is making it "fun" for fooling around like Spider-Man at the cost of instead having something useful for higher levels? How is that not a meme ability?

No improvement to animation or cast time is going to change that. At the core of its design, it was made when Operators did not exist. It made sense 4 years ago, but not today.

Ripline is only useful as traversal ability.

The fact that her 1st ability is traversal one is already far better than vast majority of other 1st abilities other frames have.

Ripline is also the single fastest way to travel vertically, making it the actual objectively best way to travel in that direction. Every single other ability in the game works better for horizontal movement.

Operator has significant delays on transference, making it near impossible to use midair without falling to the ground, and you still get reset if your frame falls into a pit.

What you are clearly trying to do is to focus her into a single Warcry build without trying to understand that is NOT her indentity. Not her only identity atleast. Pigeonholing her into a single build, based around a single ability that only you use is surefire way to annoy every single other true Valkyr user that actually knows how to use ALL of her abilities.

And in my humble opinion as somebody with nearly 1,5k hours on Valkyr alone, Ripline is a core ability to her indentity that simply needs a few tweaks to make it an even better traversal ability that wont pick up enemies on accident.

Edited by -skimmer-
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38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

Ripline is only useful as traversal ability.

If only Operator Dash was not part of her kit.

38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

The fact that her 1st ability is traversal one is already far better than vast majority of other 1st abilities other frames have

Redundant. At least other traversal abilities like Nova or Gauss offer multiple advantages such as CC or team transport on top of scaling well with the rest of their kits and being faster. This is not the case for Ripline.

38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

Ripline is also the single fastest way to travel horizontally, making it the actual objectively best way to travel in that direction.

I'd like to race you using my Operator. Not to mention, if you have no latching point, you can't push yourself forward.

38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

Operator has significant delays on transference

"Significant"? 1 second? Anymore than that is due to lag on host, not the ability per se. Try it solo.

38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

making it near impossible to use midair without falling to the ground

This is blatantly false as it ignores that Ripline needs travel time to connect with your wall target before it starts pulling you.

38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

and you still get reset if your frame falls into a pit.

Same with Ripline. Don't pretend they don't follow the same rules when falling into a pit.

38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

What you are clearly trying to do is to focus her into a single Warcry build without trying to understand that is NOT her indentity. Not her only identity atleast. Pigeonholing her into a single build, based around a single ability that only you use is surefire way to annoy every single other true Valkyr user that actually knows how to use ALL of her abilities.

"True" Valkyr user, as if my own experience and 300+ hours of only using her don't count and my 15 forma experimentation don't count. How do you join the club of "true" Valkyr players then? What are the requirements? Where's the application form? It's nice to see that you didn't even bother to read or analyze the rest of the post if you failed to notice how Warcry synergies are minimal and the abilities themselves get their respective buffs to adapt them better for late 2019 Warframe mechanics.

We are no longer in 2015. Valkyr's traversal tools made sense back then, but not now.

But go ahead. Be selective with your reasoning. You already were quite selective when attempting to highlight Ripline's "advantages" while ignoring how they apply to Void Dash as well.

Edited by Jarriaga
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38 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

Ripline is only useful as traversal ability.

The fact that her 1st ability is traversal one is already far better than vast majority of other 1st abilities other frames have.

Ripline is also the single fastest way to travel vertically, making it the actual objectively best way to travel in that direction. Every single other ability in the game works better for horizontal movement.

Operator has significant delays on transference, making it near impossible to use midair without falling to the ground, and you still get reset if your frame falls into a pit.

What you are clearly trying to do is to focus her into a single Warcry build without trying to understand that is NOT her indentity. Not her only identity atleast. Pigeonholing her into a single build, based around a single ability that only you use is surefire way to annoy every single other true Valkyr user that actually knows how to use ALL of her abilities.

And in my humble opinion as somebody with nearly 1,5k hours on Valkyr alone, Ripline is a core ability to her indentity that simply needs a few tweaks to make it an even better traversal ability that wont pick up enemies on accident.

The only "core" ability for Valkyr is the 700 armor. Nothing else remotely matters. I could literally play 1 hour in survivable without activating a single skill (except operator void mode of course). And honestly, the only skill I ever use now is war cry and hysteria, if I want to cheese some stuff. 

Could you use ripline to speed parkour a bit? Sure, but what is the point of that anyway? I cannot think of a single situation where I would remotely need this. 

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22 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

If only Operator Dash was not part of her kit.

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

We are no longer in 2015. Valkyr's traversal tools made sense back then, but not now.

Irrelevant, Dash has different mobility mechanics, can work in tandem with current mobility mechanics, is part of every frames kit and it did not stop DE from creating, nor people from wanting warframes with mobility options in their own kits (see latest designs of frames that still incorporate mobility abilities such as Gauss, Wisp, Vauban rework, Wukong rework, Meatbal grendel, making design of such abilities still relevant far into 2019)

In other words: Even if we disagree on the point where in your opinion operator dash makes ripline obsolete and my opinion being that operator dash is unusable in many scenarios due to transference delays and different mechanics, the general opinion in 2019 remains that traversal abilities are still relevant and complementary to operator abilities, else every single new warframe wouldnt have such abilities in their kit (you dont make Warframes people dont want to play with).

Therefore any arguments made for "ability x should be removed because operator already does it" or "operators ability x should be removed because this warframe already does it" are effectively irrelevant and in fact should not be relevant for the proccess of designing a Warframes abilities.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Redundant. At least other traversal abilities like Nova or Gauss offer multiple advantages such as CC or team transport on top of scaling well with the rest of their kits and being faster. This is not the case for Ripline.

It is actually also the case for ripline. Observe:

Ripline also works as single target crowd control tool (not unlike, lets say, frosts 1st ability), that also drags enemy to you (must be cast from crouch, really useful on Spy missions as enemy wont alert anybody until it stands up, and you get to dispose of them with your well scaling melee weapon) and it can also potentially instakill enemies (cast standing or jumping, throw enemies behind yourself into a pit).

It also deals damage and gets enemies in range of your melee weapon. How much more do you need it to scale?

If anything, ripline is a bit overloaded for 1st ability. Could still use few QoL tweaks though. Like ember fireball? Tap to drag yourself to an enemy, hold to drag them to you? Could be great with the new juggling mechanics.

 

10 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I'd like to race you using my Operator. Not to mention, if you have no latching point, you can't push yourself forward.

Uranus, elevator shaft. Fully upgraded operator expends all of its energy just to get up there. Valk does it in 2 riplines at base values in the same timeframe and still has enough energy to keep riplining as needed. Test it yourself.

If you didnt mod for Warcry all the time with Narrow minded, you would know that Ripline has actually really long range even with base range value. There is always a latching point.

 

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

This is blatantly false and ignores that Ropline still needs travel time to connect with your wall target before it starts pulling you.

There is no travel time. Only cast time. And you are blatantly ignoring that unlike transference, it can be cast during aim glide, effectivelly suspending you in the air.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Same with Ripline. Don't pretend they don't follow the same rules when falling into a pit.

They dont. You can be 300 meters above a pit, but the moment you transfer out of your frame, the empty frame nosedives into a pit and resets you the moment it hits the bottom.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

"Significant"? 1 second? Anymore than that is due to lag on host, not the ability per se. Try it solo.

You need to tranfer out and you need to transfer in with their own separate cast times, both transfers kill your momentum and the lag on host is of course also a factor. This adds up to 3-4 seconds of free fall on average, which is enough to ground you. Having a traversal ability that almost works fluidly only when playing solo is as good as useless.

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

"True" Valkyr user, as if my own experience and 300+ hours of only using her don't count and my 15 forma experimentation don't count. How do you join the club of "true" Valkyr players then? What are the requirements? Where's the application form?

Well, seems like in those 300+ hours you mastered the Warcry. The club is right next to the One Trick Pony show and you have to wait together with all the mesas who only mastered their 4 and all the saryns who only cast spores. Also the line is long and club spots are limited, you might be required to rip through it if you tire of the ponies.

24 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

The only "core" ability for Valkyr is the 700 armor. Nothing else remotely matters. I could literally play 1 hour in survivable without activating a single skill (except operator void mode of course). And honestly, the only skill I ever use now is war cry and hysteria, if I want to cheese some stuff. 

Could you use ripline to speed parkour a bit? Sure, but what is the point of that anyway? I cannot think of a single situation where I would remotely need this. 

Sounds like you are making the mistake of playing Valkyr as if it was Inaros.

Fun fact: if you want to kill enemies, they need to be in your reach first. The ones who can reach the enemies fastest can kill them fastest.

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24 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

[...]

No dude, seriously. The last time Ripline had any use whatsoever was before targeted slam attacks. I would use it sometimes to change direction midair and get to the enemies faster.

Now the only reason to use it is to annoy your team by pulling them a tiny distance when you are bored. One time I tried to kill Kela De Thaym with Ripline. I gave up after 5 minutes and killed her with a single slide attack. That was with about 260% ability strength.

Just admit it; This ability is not worth the space it is occupying or the energy it requires.

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2 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Now the only reason to use it is to annoy your team by pulling them a tiny distance when you are bored. One time I tried to kill Kela De Thaym with Ripline. I gave up after 5 minutes and killed her with a single slide attack. That was with about 260% ability strength.

Just admit it; This ability is not worth the space it is occupying or the energy it requires.

Well, try it with:

Frosts 1

Mesas 1

Mags 1

Volts 1

Embers 1

Garas 1

You might find yourself with similar results.

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29 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

Well, try it with:

Frosts 1

Mesas 1

Mags 1

Volts 1

Embers 1

Garas 1

You might find yourself with similar results.

Mag 1 is a pull and CC.

Frost 1 is slow and damage (also used to break bubbles if needed).

Volt 1 is a CC. And not bad damage (lower levels).

Far, far more useful than ripline.

Since we are at it, you only mentioned 6 frames. Does that mean all other frames skill 1 are better for other frames? This comparison/logic does not work at all.

How about this:

Does the skill deal high damage?

Does it provide a buff or survivability?

Does it provide a useful utility?

Does it fit in with the frame theme?

Does it fit in with other skills and offer synergy?

The answer for all of the above is no. Your only angle is it adds a bit of mobility, but you cannot substantiate how is that needed.

It either needs something else added to it or a new skill.

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Mag 1 is a pull and CC.

Frost 1 is slow and damage (also used to break bubbles if needed).

Volt 1 is a CC. And not bad damage (lower levels).

Far, far more useful than ripline.

Ripline is also a pull and CC, wise guy. And thats only half of what that ability does!

In no conceivable way is frost 1 better than ripline. Both are single target, RL provides hard CC, frost 1 is only soft CC, ripline even does more dmg. Again, thats only half of what RL does

same as mag

How exactly? Death is the best CC and ripline lets you kill them faster.

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Since we are at it, you only mentioned 6 frames. Does that mean all other frames skill 1 are better for other frames? This comparison/logic does not work at all.

You specifically can try to kill Kela with Trinitis 1, Lokis 1 or Harrows 1.

Dont worry, we will wait for results until the heat death of the universe.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

How about this:

Does the skill deal high damage?

Does it provide a buff or survivability?

Does it provide a useful utility?

Does it fit in with the frame theme?

Does it fit in with other skills and offer synergy?

The answer for all of the above is no. Your only angle is it adds a bit of mobility, but you cannot substantiate how is that needed.

It either needs something else added to it or a new skill.

k.

Yes, it does actually do significantly more single target damage than vast majority of other abilities. Up to 3000 base damage per cast through combo multiplier.

Yes, your movement decreases enemy accuracy depending on your speed. Its essentially a +evade buff on yourself. You can even drag allies and bestow that buff on them, if you trully want me to nitpick.

Yes, its single best ability for vertical movement, provides mid air maneuverability and its essentially another mid air bullet jump. Usefulness of such utility is based on convenience and skill, both being matter of subjective value in this game community.

Undisputably yes. Feel free to make separate thread if Warframe themes and their inspirations are something you wish to dispute. I will be there.

Valkyr is a melee frame. The point of the ability is to get you into their melee range. Or them to yours. Yes.

The answer to all of the above is actually yes. With explanations why that is. Explanations you didnt even bother to provide before you decided to just answer yourself.

Edited by -skimmer-
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39 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

Ripline is also a pull and CC, wise guy. And thats only half of what that ability does!

In no conceivable way is frost 1 better than ripline. Both are single target, RL provides hard CC, frost 1 is only soft CC, ripline even does more dmg. Again, thats only half of what RL does

same as mag

How exactly? Death is the best CC and ripline lets you kill them faster.

You specifically can try to kill Kela with Trinitis 1, Lokis 1 or Harrows 1.

Dont worry, we will wait for results until the heat death of the universe.

 

k.

Yes, it does actually do significantly more single target damage than vast majority of other abilities. Up to 3000 base damage per cast through combo multiplier.

Yes, your movement decreases enemy accuracy depending on your speed. Its essentially a +evade buff on yourself. You can even drag allies and bestow that buff on them, if you trully want me to nitpick.

Yes, its single best ability for vertical movement, provides mid air maneuverability and its essentially another mid air bullet jump. Usefulness of such utility is based on convenience and skill, both being matter of subjective value in this game community.

Undisputably yes. Feel free to make separate thread if Warframe themes and their inspirations are something you wish to dispute. I will be there.

Valkyr is a melee frame. The point of the ability is to get you into their melee range. Or them to yours. Yes.

The answer to all of the above is actually yes. With explanations why that is. Explanations you didnt even bother to provide before you decided to just answer yourself.

Honestly, there is not much to respond to here. The explanations you provide are.. potatoes. Funny though. Keep the entertainment going.

As for counter response, this is the 3rd page of this thread. I am not going to keep repeating what was already said in detail. 

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17 hours ago, -skimmer- said:

[...]

Oh come on. The damage of Ripline is worthless. You never use it to deal damage. Might as well be zero.

Have you ever tried to "drag allies" in order to "bestow an evasion buff" onto them? The mere idea is absolutely ridiculous. First of all you have to hit them with Ripline which is already a challenge if they are not standing still. Secondly the pull is pitiful, about a third of the range of my melee weapon. Thirdly you are being a nuisance to your ally.

If you want to move long distances, use the operator. If you want to move short distance, use bullet jump and slam attacks. Using a mod to improve bullet jumping (as I do with Valkyr) makes it faster than Ripline. You never pull a single enemy towards you - you move towards a group of enemies.

I don't even want to reply to this topic anymore, please stop provocating me with your silly fantasies.

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37 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Oh come on. The damage of Ripline is worthless. You never use it to deal damage. Might as well be zero.

Actually I agree. Thats about the least useful feature of it. Doesnt change the fact that it outperforms many other 1st abilities in terms of damage. Its the combined factors of it having to aim it, being single target, relatively long cast times and enemy ragdolling that makes it way too much work to use for relatively little gain. Which can be very easily fixed with little QoL.

Point is, if you want to argue that other 1st abilities are more useful because they deal damage, I will always counterpoint by saying that Ripline does more and that it has more utility on top of that. Which is factually correct in many cases.

40 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Have you ever tried to "drag allies" in order to "bestow an evasion buff" onto them? The mere idea is absolutely ridiculous. First of all you have to hit them with Ripline which is already a challenge if they are not standing still. Secondly the pull is pitiful, about a third of the range of my melee weapon. Thirdly you are being a nuisance to your ally.

Also agreed. I was being petty on this particular point, but is technically true. The self +evade buff is real though.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

If you want to move long distances, use the operator. If you want to move short distance, use bullet jump and slam attacks.

inferiority of operator mode in many general situations aside, I dare you to argue that point against all the other frames with traversal abilities in their kit. See how fast you get booed out.

I suppose next time you try to remove invisibility from Loki because operator can do that too for free?

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

If you want to move long distances, use the operator. If you want to move short distance, use bullet jump and slam attacks. Using a mod to improve bullet jumping (as I do with Valkyr) makes it faster than Ripline. You never pull a single enemy towards you - you move towards a group of enemies.

Only the bullet jump mod? Im still faster than you.

Lightning dash, endurance drift, 2x arcane agility and Natural talent is how you ripline proper.

 

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

I don't even want to reply to this topic anymore, please stop provocating me with your silly fantasies.

You stop trying the remove the one feature that is unique to this warframe that I enjoy using. If I wanted to replace it for a damage buff, I would play rhino, chroma or a dozen other frames that get damage buffs as part of their kits.

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5 minutes ago, -skimmer- said:

You stop trying the remove the one feature that is unique to this warframe that I enjoy using. If I wanted to replace it for a damage buff, I would play rhino, chroma or a dozen other frames that get damage buffs as part of their kits.

Well, I didn't say that. Ripline is a cool ability indeed - just not good enough, it could be improved in many ways.

Some simple yet effective improvements would be: If the ability actually moved you all the way to the anchor point, and did it a little faster / if it could grab several enemies at once and pulled them into melee range / if you could cancel the ability in case you missed your target, instead of getting pulled to the next wall / if it removed enemies armor / if it applied a speed buff on you / etc.

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On 2019-10-03 at 9:42 PM, Jarriaga said:

I am aware it is intended, and I have even defended that decision before. However, the game has moved on from my position 18 months ago in which I used to defend it. Back then, Hysteria did feel powerful-enough as to justify it. That's not the case anymore.

In the current game, Hysteria is a weak weapon when compared to what is available. Zaws with Rivens exist. Gram Prime with Riven exist. Redeemer Prime with a Riven exist. And they can use mods that Valkyr's Talons can not, such as Blood Rush. This is making Hysteria (And Valkyr by extension) less and less relevant. There's also Wukong's Iron staff. That thing is broken beyond redemption.

My proposal would allow you to be invincible or not invincible as you so prefer by means of the augment. And if further balance is needed, they could make it so Hysterical Assault was only available when not using the invincibility augment to add even more distinct considerations (Advantages and disadvantages) between new Hysteria and old Hysteria.

Firstly, You're comparing an exhalted weapon to standard weapons. this is always going to yeild horribly lopsided results.

Compare hysteria to exhalted blade, or artemis bow. or wukong's staff, which is probably actually the closest comparison but I would say on average. performs about equally well, just with better reach. and no invincibility. and 90% DR with valkyr's already insane armor and health is not comparable to nezzie boy. also, wukong's wonderstick doesnt lifesteal.

also here's this little wiki exerpt which I can attest works fine.

While officially Set Mod bonuses do not affect Exalted Weapons (with the exception of the Sacrificial Mod Set), the Gladiator Mod Set can still apply if equipped on Melee or Robotic Weapons (i.e. Helios/Helios Prime's SentinelGlaiveWeapon Deconstructor/DeconstructorPrime Deconstructor Prime), and not on the Exalted Weapon itself.

and i've pushed valkyr's talons into red crit territory so easily, it outperforms every other exhalted weapon i have in my wheelhouse except Iron Staff, Maybe.  Valkyr's talons can and do dish out punishing damage, She has a finisher opener, attack speed buff, invincibility AND lifesteal. wukong is fully able to get his ass handed to him at any point, as he doesnt have half the armor valkyr has, his immortal techniques are limited. the staff has more offensive power with reach, but isnt defensive enough and doesnt protect him explicitly. and its worth pointing out, Rage and hunter adrenaline Do Not Work while in a sustained ability, So its locked out of all exhalted weapons not just valkyr's claws. it's like.. they arent meant to have their ultimate ability on, all the time. so you are asking for hysteria to be nerfed so you can take advantage of a mechanic that under no circumstance works for any frame. Furthermore, Hysteria's energy costs do climb but can be re-lowered by killing.

 

However All of this comparison is wholly irrelevant as within the week Every weapon you've listed, including valkyr's talons is getting a sizable buff and rework as part of melee phase 2. Reach mods will be adding a flat range bonus so it will work as well on her claws as it will on wukong's staff. So posting this now is frankly poor timing. and to me, shows you havent actually spent much time contemplating the game as a whole or paying any attention to what's actually going on, which many of your other arguments reinforce.

 

Second point, comparing ripline to operator dash. Congratulations on the worst comparison I've seen. Newsflash buckaroo, over a dozen warframes have assorted dash and mobility based skills. even new ones not part of the new mobility meta. sure, it doesnt outperform operator dash. but Niether do most of the others. weird huh? for examples include nezha's disc, Zephyr's air dash, excal's slash dash to a degree, Garuda's pounce, Nova's portal (which by the way burns way more energy) Wisp, whos 'dash' is slower and more awkward. loki and ash who teleport but require an enemy target to teleport to, rhino charge, Atlas puncho, Hydroid's wave dash. the differences is these abilities have other effects, so does rip line, I wont disagree its damage alone is uninspiring, and yanking one enemy to you at a time is less useful but I will say it can be quite handy.

 

Does ripline need a bit of work, sure, I have pretty decent range on my valkyr so i dont have a range issue with ripline, but i do think at least it's augment should be merged in with it baseline and a new augment put out. and maybe a swing mechanic if that were feasable. Scorpioning enemies with it is still pretty fun

 

Warcry, yeah perhaps that could be slightly rescaled, but i would like to point out 1400 armor as per your math is more than all but a handful of frames can achieve ever, no matter what. but its main advantage is in the speed buff for allies and Slow on enemies. a feature often overlooked. it still notably increases kill speeds while decreasing enemy lethality. which is not a bad deal.

 

Paralysis, I wouldnt mind if it got a little bit of nyx's 'universal defense stripping' but straight up finisher opening aoe is pretty nice.

 

Hysteria is too roped up in the melee rework for me to have a larger opinion on how to remedy but i wouldnt mind exhalteds being allowed to use combo counter mods, once after the melee phase 2 buff has been run in and tested more thoroughly.

 

as far as I'm concerned she isnt just the melee queen, she's the melee tank queen, very few frames Can out tank her and she can straight up blow through nukes indifferently. and still one of my favorite frames, could some of her abilities do with a little polish? maybe yeah, but she is still a violent work of art, and there are frames that much more severely need the attention.

 

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2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

Firstly, You're comparing an exhalted weapon to standard weapons. this is always going to yeild horribly lopsided results.

If I have access to a weapon, it is a valid point of comparison because it is part of my default loadout and always present with me. The moment I switch to Exalted, I expect better than what I already have. I get that with Excalibur, Baruuk, and Wukong. Not with Valkyr, because of her horrible range. So bad that it needs a second mod just so you can get single target range (Hysterical Assault).

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

90% DR with valkyr's already insane armor and health is not comparable to nezzie boy. also, wukong's wonderstick doesnt lifesteal.

700 armor is not insane considering how poorly that scales. Max-rank Umbral Fiber with the other Umbra Mods, Gladiator Aegis and Armored Agility combined add-up to a "high " armor value of 2678, which is 89.92% damage reduction for 5 mods already wasted in your loadout. If you remove GA and AA, armor drops to 2047, but damage reduction only drops to 87.22%. Those diminishing returns are insane.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

 wukong's wonderstick doesnt lifesteal.

Doesn't need to. Wukong has Cloud Walker, which is what a mobility tool should do so it can properly compete: Multiple things at once.

1) Heals you.

2) Heals your clone.

3) Bypasses lasers.

4) Opens enemies to finishers.

5) Not tied to latching points and can move in any direction and even switch directions mid-cast.

6) Scales well with mods that benefit the frame's most important stats (Strength and duration).

And all of that is being done at once, at the same time. All other well-received frame mobility tools like Nova and Wisp work under the same principle. This is not the same with Ripline.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

and i've pushed valkyr's talons into red crit territory so easily, it outperforms every other exhalted weapon

But still falls short when compared to regular weapons any frame can use. At least the other exalted weapons have huge range that allow for fast combo growth, high scaling damage, and wide area crowd control. It doesn't matter how strong Hysteria claws are when compared to the other Exalted weapons if there is nothing you can hit. Range is king.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

Rage and hunter adrenaline Do Not Work while in a sustained ability, So its locked out of all exhalted weapons not just valkyr's claws.

Utterly wrong. Rage and Hunter adrenaline do not work like the other energy mods that are disabled when using toggle abilities. Any damage that is not self-inflicted is converted.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

So posting this now is frankly poor timing. and to me, shows you havent actually spent much time contemplating the game as a whole or paying any attention to what's actually going on,

Thread post date: October 3rd.

Melee rework announcement date: October 18th.

This shows that you didn't really bother to analyze the context of the thread (Didn't even check the time it was posted), or you are somehow attempting to discredit my reasoning by pointing out that I can't see the future.

Makes you look like you are so emotionally invested you need to attempt to invalidate the argument at its core.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

Congratulations on the worst comparison I've seen. Newsflash buckaroo, over a dozen warframes have assorted dash and mobility based skills. even new ones not part of the new mobility meta. sure, it doesnt outperform operator dash. but Niether do most of the others. weird huh?

As noted before: All other well-received frame mobility tools like Nova and Wisp work under the same principle as Wukong's Cloud Walker by doing many things at once including things your Operator Dash doesn't do. This is not the same with Ripline.

Expanding on Wisp:

1) Scales with her most valuable stat as well (Duration).

2) Its instantaneous, no travel time, no latching point needed.

3) Bypasses lasers.

4) She's completely invulnerable after casting.

5) Synergy with breach surge by creating a second instance with her clone.

6) Synergy with sol gate by making her invisible and changing the spawn point of the attack.

Nova:

1) Works for the entire team, giving her team value.

2) Again, scales well with Nova's most desirable builds (Duration and range).

3) Can give teamates a movement speed buff if the augment is used.

4) One-handed action that does not interrupt reloading, shooting your gun, or charging a melee attack.

5) Its instantaneous, so indisputably faster than void dash.

Those are advantages that allow those abilities to compete with Void Dash.

Garuda:

1) Instant kill when the enemy is under 40% HP, which means she theoretically deals millions of damage if the enemy has millions of HP.

2) The pounce gives her a defensive mirror that blocks front enemy fire and stores it as damage for a counterattack that has a wide range for hitting multiple enemies at once.

3) The pounce knockdown affects all enemies within 8 meters of impact.

But Ripline?

1) Travel time during pull.

2) Doesn't play well with Valkyr's most desirable stat (Duration, which affects her other 3 abilities).

3) It's single target for enemies. Pablo himself said that single target abilities are no longer favorable in the current meta of the game when he reworked Wukong.

4) Can open a single enemy to finishers when your Void Dash opens 12 of them with Magus Lockdown.

5) Locks you down to its animation until the pull is complete.

Also: Highlighting how other frame's abilities might be in the same boat is besides the point and only serves to move the goalpost by introducing "You're complaining about X? But what about Y??" logical fallacies. This is a Valkyr thread. I don't care if those other frame abilities need a rework because this thread is not about how those other frame's abilities work with their kits. This thread is about Valkyr's abilities and how they play with one another.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

Scorpioning enemies with it is still pretty fun

Single-target meme abilities are not fun for me.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

i would like to point out 1400 armor as per your math is more than all but a handful of frames can achieve ever

And still less effective than 90% damage reduction with a significantly higher total mod investment. You need 2700 armor to match 90% reduction. Considering the number of mods involved to get there as Valkyr, the diminishing returns are not worth the used lots because of how it affects the rest of her kit.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

but its main advantage is in the speed buff for allies and Slow on enemies. a feature often overlooked.

It's not that those features are overlooked. It's just that they might as well not exist because her abilities fight one another in scaling to the point of absurdity.

The melee attack speed buff is fine and doesn't need revision, but the slowdown is meaningless because, again, Narrow Minded kills range, and Eternal War means you can't recast Warcry until you willingly stop using your melee weapon, which is absurd to me when I'm using a melee frame. If you want to instead not use Eternal War or Narrow Minded, just getting Warcry to last a meager 30 seconds will require Primed Continuity, Constitution and Augur Message (3 mod slots used). Not to mention that it gets further killed in duration if you are using Transient Fortitude, or in efficiency (115 energy!) if using Blind Range. For 15-30 seconds.

Again, huge diminishing returns.

2 hours ago, Desdemona-XI said:

and there are frames that much more severely need the attention.

I don't care about those other frames because I don't play them. I care about Valkyr because she was my former main.

Edited by Jarriaga
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@Desdemona-XI Saying that Valkyr is melee and/or tank queen is.. false. She is decent tank with not much else. War cry has issues. Hysteria has issues. Paralysis and Ripline are obsolete. The only saving grace for Valkyr is the passive and that her tanking does not drop significantly by nullifiers. 

And I love Valkyr style and look, but this has nothing to do with performance. 

@Jarriaga I agree with you. Just a point for armor. It is easier when you look at as effective health. Every 300 armor adds 100% of your effective health. Assuming you are using Umbra  mods maxed that would roughly put Valkyr effective health at 8,371. In my current setup, with arcane guardian and war cry I can get to ~3,275 armor which is 12,750 effective HP. You could probably could go 300-500 more armor with blind rage, but it is not viable under level 120, since mobs will not do enough damage so hunter adrenaline/rage can provide enough energy. I use both Narrow minded and primed continuity. I am considering dropping narrow minded for eternal war.. but reluctant. I dropped primed continuity for transit fortitude, it did not work very well.. due to war cry constant re-casting.

In any case, Wukong, Chroma, Excalibur and probably Guass (I on PS4, Gauss buff is not live yet) are better melee frames. Wukong, Chroma, Atlas, Trinity and Inarios are better tanks. Wukong and Chroma have much better flexibility than Valkyr. I do not think Valkyr needs more tankiness. Just better melee damage. 

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7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Rage and Hunter adrenaline do not work like the other energy mods that are disabled when using toggle abilities. Any damage that is not self-inflicted is converted.

Thread post date: October 3rd.

Melee rework announcement date: October 18th.

Firstly. I stand corrected, I was thinking of the other energy lockout mechanic on energy regen.

 

Secondly, Melee rework was initially announced and phase 1 started what over a year ago? We've known Melees were getting a sizable buff across the board for months, since before tennocon if i am not mistaken, along with the reworking of stances to include more gap closers, and the intention to alter range's mechanics to be more equal in performance across weapon types. We've only gotten concrete Numbers recently, regarding specific changes with specific numbers, close to final figures. but. i guess that doesnt count as an announcement.

 

and, Im sorry but.. What? You really think 82% damage reduction isnt good enough? On paper sure it doesnt sound like as much as a tap from Gara, except her armor scales with DR abilities and as is without pushing her that high, for most enemies valkyr's considerable health pool and existing armor, Not counting the warcry buff itself, is enough where she can basically laugh and tank her way through almost anything, and still has a huge invulnerability Mode with claws that blender most enemies in my experience, and in my experience, Still outperforms most of the exhalted weapons in both focussing an enemy down and also protecting the user, which I would like to point out, the other exhalted warframes have to use other abilities for, Mesa has to leave peacemaker to recast shattershield, wukong has to cloud walker or use defy or both. excal can cast normally with exhalted blade, but his blade and valkyr talons to my use feel pretty comparable when focussing a single heavy target a lot of the time without chromatic blade in the mix.

 

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't care about those other frames because I don't play them. I care about Valkyr because she was my former main.

so.. "Buff my favorite #*!% everyone else" is the jist of what I'm hearing. you want valkyr to be as strong offensively as wukong, as nimble as garuda, and as immortal as inaros. and im just gonna tell you right now, that is probably never gonna happen.

also mild correction wisp isnt immune to damage while her 'dash' is in effect, and its far from instant, the travel time on her clone even when turbo'd is notably slower. but Clearly you missed the point of me listing those dashes, as one and all they are dashes, some faster, some slower, most more or less equal in terms of dash ability, and as someone else here did point out, as far as single target 1s go, Valkyr's ripline is pretty good in terms of damage, not top tier but it isnt meant to be. but I will reiterate the point you seem to have felt like wasting a paragraph skipping over. I *do* agree valkyr's ripline should be re-looked at. but I do not think it needs to be outright discarded,

 

and yes this is a valkyr thread. and this is my feedback. that your idea is both overreaching and imbalanced, wastes half the stats she was built around and 'fixxing' problems i dont agree are problems.

 

She's still a goddamn beast for everything I've used her in in the last four years. so to my eyes, and in my play experience, she is still one of my three favorite frames but the scale of Rework you're proposing feel is dramatic overkill, and reads very much like you're trying to make valkyr as powerful as possible. and then even more so, also. Based on the fact DE buffed Hysterical assault a month ago because so few people ran it (I did because i found it fun to use more than actually needing to close gaps that much)  clearly most people didn't feel hysterical assault was as necessary as you claim it is. 

 

My issue with this post is you are claiming opinions as fact. from what to me looks like a blatantly narrow and favoritist perspective. While it is fact that valkyr's armor is less than 90 damage reduction, its still what, the third highest in the game or second? and that's still not good enough for you? then I am inclined to say maybe your expectations are a little unrealistic on that front, you claim valkyr's talons are trash, but i find them perfectly serviceable for the vast majority of game content. is their reach poor, sure, they're claws, they're meant to be. but we also knew that was probably going to be changed soon for a long time. but the volume of your complaints about abilities that I honestly still find very servicable and fun, and they do excell at focussing down heavies, because they are Faster than other exhalteds, even wukong's unmodded. you also claim that ripline is worse then every other dash, but that is subjective opinion, and considering energy costs, and the innate combo counter on it lowering subsequent casts,  it does more damage than a lot of 1s do.

 

and if you want to run corrupted mods, that's your business, then you deal with the penalties, I can keep my hysteria up for quite a long time, keep my warcry up for a while, never lack energy, and always have the damage to deal with whatever's in my face. and i havent even pushed my build as far as i could if i really knuckled down for it. and I havent felt the need for eternal war as recasting it takes very little actual time, 

 

So i will ask you this: in this phase where youve decided the talons are feeble and weak and not worth using, How far above the actual content celing are you? level 120? 150? higher? because I should also point out that by pushing over the content celing chasing the mythical engame that you've already passed, you're in the area where, DE has made it fairly clear by their actions they dont intend for content to be operating at that level, where it's well established enemy scaling is broken. and by asking for a buff so you can faceroll through level 150s like a valkyr can with no forma up to level 80 easily you're just feeding the power creep cycle, chasing the bigger badder more brokenly scaled enemy, then whining that you're not strong enough.

Rivens as a 'comparison' are also a terrible example as they are intentionally denied to exhalted weapons because they arent meant as a main content feature. they are meant to be potentially overpowered, I like pushing myself as far as i can on an arbitration or long term survival as much as anyone, but there is a point where smacking your face into the celing is supposed to hurt. the only reason we even have access to levels that high is because of a bug and players asked for it to be made permenant. arbitrations are by their very name arbitrary. they are meant to be harsh and unpleasant, but players can and will find a way to cheese them. and to use a suitable comparison, playing dark souls on donkey kong bongos doesnt mean the game is easy. if enemy scaling is adjusted as i should hope some people at DE are at least looking at, instantly everything youre comparing to falls apart, 5% damage reduction is borderline irrelevant for gameplay up till past level 100. and past 150 90% without adaptation still wont always protect you from being nuked into oblivion.

 

I have agreed warcry's scaling should maybe be looked at, perhaps converting it into a fixxed number like Iron renewal, Paralysis is a quick cast, low energy cost aoe finisher opener,  its a slightly lesser inaros's 1 for about the same energy cost. not so great on bosses but works pretty well on most enemies and makes a nice quick tap for reviving because Valkyr usually outlives her squad in my experience, 

I have agreed ripline does need to be retouched, but i find the basis of your arguments for it, comparing it to operator dashes, and wukong's dash which is really more of a free flight than a dash, is going to as has been seen in this feed alone, lose you credibility. and based on prepositions that are fundamentally flawed as i see it. 

I do not think hysteria is broken or lacking in any way other exhalteds are not also lacking, so on that, I feel that belongs in its own topic, or at least deserves mention here that its a common problem for exhalted weapons. and as we have known for a long time things were going to change on that front regardless.

 

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On a side note, I do think that porting ripline over to khora as a hold mechanic of her 1 would be a good move, and free her up for something new, I do like the idea of a pounce claw attack but i feel that would be too similar to garuda's and thus unlikely for implimentation, moving paralysis over to a 1 would be servicable, or perhaps a taunt, not to many tank warframes have a direct taunting ability.

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Seems like DE decided to keep ignoring Valkyr alltogether. ZERO changes to her with update 26! Even Exal got updated animations for his ult!

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