Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

1 minute ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I wanted to add something else before I forget, but maybe instead of adding more meters and gaudy HUD elements, you should try working it into the gameplay itself. Ember, as a fire wielder, should literally be on fire. When the flames start to die down, you know to do X,Y, or Z. This is just an example.

This is in no way an endorsement for Immolate, it's just a suggestion in general. Reducing HUD elements is a big plus for me. I'm not sure everyone would agree, but this is my feedback.

I think relying on visual indicators in a game chock-full of crazy particle effects wouldn't work out very well.

[ArcKnight9202]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

I think relying on visual indicators in a game chock-full of crazy particle effects wouldn't work out very well.

Now that you mention it, I am reminded of the visual craziness that can happen. Perhaps you are right?

I play solo a huge majority of the time so that might bias me towards certain things.

[ChromeKat]

58 minutes ago, Phaeronimus said:

And Vortex is at least 4x times more effective.Also,max power efficiency says hi.

Even with max power efficiency, don't tell me you use Vortex just to disable that one priority target when Vortex is gonna cost 25 energy, while a basic Tesla/Minelayer is 6 energy (4x cheaper) for the same effect.

[LupoDWolf]

18 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

 

 

New Passive: All enemies within a certain range that are on fire will grant Ember added ability strength (up to a cap). 

1. FIREBALL
   Works fundamentally the same as it does now - tap for quick fire, hold to charge for greater impact. Enemies already inflicted by any heat status effect will now take additional damage. 
   
   The damage output and charge speed also scale off of one of Ember’s newest abilities...
    
2. IMMOLATION (replacing Accelerant)
   Time for a history lesson! Prior to Update 11.5, Ember’s second ability used to be “Overheat”, offering an aura of heat damage which also protected her from enemy fire. Almost SIX years later, it’s time for this ring of fire to come full circle.
   
   When cast, Ember Immolates herself with protective fire armor. Her current level of self-Immolation is indicated by a unique UI indicator; the higher the heat, the more damage resistance, and the more effective Ember’s other abilities become.
    
   
   Empty -> Full
   
   
   The Immolation meter will build slowly at first - killing enemies and casting Ember’s Fireball (or her new ultimate ability) causes the meter to build faster. But be warned! If the meter reaches 100%, Ember will “overheat”, unleashing a wave of flame expending ALL energy. To prevent this from happening, use Fire Blast to expel a portion of your heat meter, or toggle Immolation off to reset meter build.
    
3.  

Sugestion, make immolation increase the passive range, and if you overheat it enters in a small CD. Less punishing but still a good management

[Thenbhd123]

Vauban: 

Tesla: NIce rework, it looks like it has some potential now. 

Minelayer: the weak point of this rework! 

Sticky ripline: A mini vortex. I don't see the point of this ability.It was said that it could be use in combination with Bastille, but I don't think anybody will do that. The only use will be if you haven't enough energy to cast Bastille but as a Vauban player you always want to keep a certain amount of energy to have acess to all your ability to stay alive. The ability and the animation look great but for another Warframe, Vauban don't need this ability in its current state.

Nail Grenade: Interesting. I can't really judge untill I see it in-game. However I hope it will have more utility than just doing damage. Maybe a guarantee puncture proc would be great so you can have an area with ennemies doing less damage to yourself and indirectly boost Vauban's survivability (and he needs that boost!). Maybe you can add a laser to CC ennemies around and avoid being cancelled by nullifier. 

Boost pad: Please DE, do not add more forcing mobility ability. This is the worst addition for 2 reasons: 1) It locks an area for players who don't want to use it. You can spam it so the blocked area can be bigger. The troll potential is bigger than bounce, you litteraly can block access to your teammates (Second please: No more troll ability even if it has become a meme with Vauban). 2) Minelayer's system isn't designed to be fast or reactive. Doublejump would always be a better option and you'll go faster than selecting your boost pad ball and then cast it in the direction you want to go. If you want to use a speed boost it means you want to go fast and Minelayer doesn't allow it.

Damage amp: The best part of Minelayer. 
Considering that Minelayer is a slow and non-reactive system, I think every ball (for Minelayer) should work as Damage amp.Because this is a buff so it last over time, it follows Vauban even when he's moving, you don't have to spam it and so you spend less time in the menu thinking about which ball you have eqquiped, how many times do you have to press 2 untill you have the right ball and if you have to do a short click or keep pressing 2. 

I don't have a problem with Minelayer being based on statics mechanics but I think Vauban should benefit more of their effects (or should I say a part of their effects) while moving and a buff like damage amp is a great idea.

Orbital strike: Why not. I just hope it is not just a pure damage ability. I would add a temporary slow effect on remaining ennemies.

Bastille: 

The fusion between Bastille and Vortex is such a great idea! 
Now I hope the team buff will be a survivability buff/ armor buff (a bit like oberon).
Concerning the debuff, it is always appreciable however it seems a bit stupid/ unskilled (you press 4 and the armor is gone) and illogical. You're already doing more damage to ennemies because with bastille they don't move, with vortex you can easily inflict collateral damage and you also have the damage boost from your passive. I would prefer an effect who decreased armor/ shield over time while in vortex mode. The old Bastille should only give a buff and vortex should only debuff, it is visually more logical. 
 

Overall, for now I have mixed feelings about what you showed. There are great things, bad things, really great things but also really bad things. 
To sum up, some abilities have a really nice potential (Tesla, his new Ultimate, Damage Amp) and only stats will confirm this potential. 
Some abilities need just a little bit more utility effect (Orbital strike, because a pure damage ability isn't really interesting)
Some abilities need more utility effect to be viable (Nail grenade) or to justify their existence (sticky ripline)
Some abilities need to be rethink/ refound (Boost pad) because it doesn't fit with the gameplay of Warframe or it is a troll ability. You do not do a rework with the idea of doing another rework in 6 months.

In the devstream, I had the feeling that synergy between abilities was missing, so pay attention to this very important point but I totally trust on this point. On previous devstream, Hildryn, Wisp and Gauss looked bad and without a lot of synergy and when they were live it was the opposite and a good surprise.

One more thing, I would like to see a buff in his stats like you did with Hydroid (especially armor buff). In my opinion, he really looks like an off-tank and it is really frustrating to get down more often with him than with any other frames. 
And I really hope that all his abilities are limited so he can no longer spam his power, this is a disaster in terms of visibility.

I wish this feedback was useful and wish you good luck with the next steps of the rework.

[selig_fay]

34 минуты назад, Resonant_Thoughts сказал:

What if the Nail grenade could disarm enemies? Then it would be a super useful utility tool. About the speed pad, it should be removed, it's just gimmicky and useless, add a shield bubble that heals allies inside or something instead, would be great.

It would be great if she knocked down the domes of the nullifier. 

[schilds]

Unfortunately, this looks to me like Vauban is going from 2 abilities that I don't use and 2 abilities that I use (Vortex and Bastille) to 3 abilities I won't use and 1 ability that I will use.

1. Why would you waste energy on an orbital strike when there are so many scaling, 0 energy ways to kill enemies stuck in a Vortex?
2. We now know the combined Vortex/Bastille can't really be used simultaneously as putting out a Vortex collapses every Bastille.

I'm not even going to mention how slow and unreactive all his abilities look like they're going to be, what with all the toggling, hold to cast and long animations (though the last is apparently under review).

[selig_fay]

2 минуты назад, schilds сказал:

Unfortunately, this looks to me like Vauban is going from 2 abilities that I don't use and 2 abilities that I use (Vortex and Bastille) to 3 abilities I won't use and 1 ability that I will use.

1. Why would you waste energy on an orbital strike when there are so many scaling, 0 energy ways to kill enemies stuck in a Vortex?
2. We now know the combined Vortex/Bastille can't really be used simultaneously as putting out a Vortex collapses every Bastille.

This is certainly a crazy idea, but the minimum duration and spam. If the 3 seconds of the vortex after the end of the Bastille are not changed by duration, then you can use them at the same time.

[paul5473]

I sorta like embers and vaubans but i guess to really get a feel we will have to wait also would be nice for frost to be looked at also 

[Ethorin]

Hey, an Ember Rework that will see Ember Prime leaving my foundry!

 

the one thing I wanted was WoF getting outright removed for something else because Running Sim isn't why I go on missions. Everything else looks really cool. And for people going "AAAAH LoS Range Problems!" I'd point out the three.

[NoLazyShadow]

I think you're a bit too qucik to judge. She gain more power strengh with enemies burning around her afinity range(not 10m as was told on the dev stream), her 3 strips off armor + fire proc reduce enemy's armor and stacts, dealing more and more damage. My suggestion - lets wait for the mainline, see her reworked augments and how she opetare and THEN suggest more reworks. Tbh I'm exited to see her as changing from 'press 4 and joing valkyr as one of the dead frames' to 'I.NEED.MORE.FIRE!!!'

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

I like the idea that fire damage will strip armor per the devstream video but I feel it should be temporarily debuff not a permanent one as it will negate corrosive stat procs. 

[Phaeronimus]

20 minutes ago, 4holes said:

Even with max power efficiency, don't tell me you use Vortex just to disable that one priority target when Vortex is gonna cost 25 energy, while a basic Tesla/Minelayer is 6 energy (4x cheaper) for the same effect.

Priority target gets a Redeemer shot in the face,zero energy,zero effort.Vortex is for grouping more enemies..who would in their right mind use it for a  single enemy anyway?
It should of been an iteration of the old concuss,procing radiation in a decent AoE upon impact or a Flashbang,blinding and opening for finishers.
In this form I would even use it for half an enemy,let alone for 1 enemy unit..

[Thenbhd123]

Ember: 

Overall this rework looks really interesting even if I thought she would be oriented as a CC/ support Warframe.

- Immolation looks great but it feels strange that you decided to replace Ember's 2nd ability (probably her strongest ability pre-rework) + this ability had an interesting support augment mod. So personnaly I hope you'll find a way to keep this augment mod in the game. 
-The negative point with Immolation is that it only decreased while using Fire blast and sometimes I don't want or I don't need to push ennemies back, to push them away from me + casting a third ability to manage a 2nd ability, in terms of energy consumption, this is not a great idea.

- you probably should add more utility to her one, there wasn't a lot of things to do with it. Maybe if you charge it you can create a ring of fire where she's looking at, like her previous third ability ( the augment would stay the same and replace this possibility).
-Visually it looks fantastic (especially Immolation), it is perfect for customization! 
 

[keikogi]

Should last as long as the traget is on fire.

Also people are not noticing something big , most weapons can't proc both corrosive and viral. All weapons stack both fire and viral and that is huge. This a huge buff to secondaries in general because primed heated charge exist

A bit unrelated , armor in warframe needs a deep rework. First it is not intuitive because it double dips on its resistence bonus. Second it is overwhelming , a build sucks if it can't deal with armor. Third , it doesn't make sense, armor resist both slash and fire on paper , but in pratice both will be alble to ignore armor all together.

[Autongnosis]

While i haven't much to say about ember, other than unless you give some numbers it's impossibile to give feedback on that (particularly for a DPS frame), i must say I'm incredibly disappointed by vauban. 

The new tesla is a terrible addition to his kit. Why would i want uncontrollable rollers running about on AI controlled paths for a camper. It's a cute idea, but effective? Not so much. 

The new minelayer grenades are terrifyingly bad. A worse vortex (talk about not having redundancies), bounce 2.0 with no additional use, a generoc damage buff and an incredibly bad AoE dmg grenade? What the #*!%? The old minelayer with all its mechanical problems was better than this. 

The 3rd skill, also known as generic AoE dmg skill #385926, is just baffling. Why would you cast something lile this when melee and guns exist. 

And lastly, you combined bastille and vortex losing entire chunks of functionality. I mean, the armour siphon/strip is a cool idea, but why does it also have to come with a drastic reduction in usefulness of the skill? 

 

In the process Vauban also completely lost the ability to deal with CC immune enemies like nullifiers, making him into a much worse frame. 

[fellow1]

Will Vauban still have all one-hand animation?
This was very unique to him to have all of his abilities as one-hand cast.

[ReaverKane]

Ember's Kit is nice, although i think Fire Blast is counterproductive in the kit. With that passive we want enemies to be close so Ember gets the most buff possible, and Fireblast kicks enemies away from the caster, thus removing them from Passive Range.

My solution would be to either change Fireblast into "Back Draft" and just have enemies get sucked in when you cast it.
Or have a double cast effect like Gauss's 3 or the new Bastille. Tab to blast enemies away, and Hold to pull them back in, which is both handy, and thematically correct since explosions are usually followed by a back-draft that sucks everything back in.

[Azamagon]

They talked about "less redundancy", but I don't really see it.

Sure, Tesla is much better and Bastille/Vortex looks neat - not gonna argue about those 2 skills, they look nice. But the other 2 skills need a look at:

Orbital Strike needs utility though and/or something unique. My 3 ideas (all added at once):

• Basic utility, such as slowing down enemies after they are struck. ANYTHING that you could get use out of which your guns could utilize as well.
• Lingering damage zone, if at least for a moderate moment. This gives it some continued area denial effect.
• It's now a proximity mine. When cast, there's a delay, just like now. But once the delay is done, it won't shoot - not until there is at least one enemy enterring it's AoE. Then BAM! Beam comes down. There ya go, trapper-style nuke that could see some actual useage beyond just being a bland nuke.

Minelayer. Oof. 4 new skills, and they are equally "useful" as before.

Tether - Better than old Tripwire, but what's the point of this skill, really? You already have Vortex. Less redundancy? Not really, just DIFFERENT redundancy.

Nailgun - Wow this looks SO bad. This replaces Shred, I assume. What's the point of this? It's just Tesla 1.0 with a different damage type, and Tesla was changed for a reason. Urgh.

Speedthingy - LOL! Bounce, made even worse? I mean, sprint and bulletjump exists! I laughed when I saw this skill. Then just got sad. Hope that is enough explanation...

Damageamp - Useful, but blaaaaaaand. I'd rather keep the Concuss grenade (Radiation proc was very useful for Ancients' auras)

All in all though, I'd just scrap Minelayer entirely. Tether is already filled by Vortex, Nailgun could have its DPS effect as an added effect on Orbital Strike (as suggested above), Speedthingy exists in the form of sprinting and bulletjumping (lol) and Damageamp is the only thing really lost (more to that next).

I'd replace it with this:

Bunker - Toss a grenade which forms a protective dome (like Snow Globe - similar scaling too, but weaker). Max 6 can be placed. While Vauban or his allies are inside a Bunker, they gain a small damage amp and a reloadspeed bonus. Vauban can pick up a Bunker to carry it as mobile protective shell, but this greatly reduces the size of the shield.

Augment: Fortification - Allies gain X shields every second (can grant overshields) and restore X% of their max ammo every second.

[Djego27]

After watching the stream like 5 more times just to make sure I did not miss anything or got something wrong:

So the basic idea is to press 2 to have massive damage reduction, then you should stand close to enemy units to spam your 4 for more damage while you also should spam your 3 to knock them out of range, to not lose your damage reduction? Isn't this just like counter productive gameplay? How should that work in real missions? Are you run away everytime you need to spam 3 to keep your targets together to do damage with your 4 afterwards or are we seeing the return of something that was just as anoying as the Firequake Ember, but this time even worse by even ragdolling enemy groups that other people want to shoot all over the place?

Futuremore such a gameplay does not even make sense if you look at high level infested solo. You can not spam abilities with stacking full AOE energy leech auras on multiple units around you nearly non stop at high levels(you can not even properly spot them in plain side given that everything will be covered in the disruper aura), your AOE CC is fully aborbed by healers(procs) and disruptors(knockback) and you also lost all the focus target damage that accelerant did provide you with what made you able to deal with that units. It also means that amazing tools that did scale on Ember against the faction like a radiation/viral/fire mara detron no longer scale, like on any other warframe what again removes build options and players actually having interesting choices on different warframes.

 

[Draconakin]

Anyone else bummed they didn't keep the fist slam animation from her Fire Blast and World on Fire?

[Sohaya-]

2 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

they literally said it'll scale based on enemy level.

That’s vauban, nothing about Ember is being changed like that

[Sohaya-]

1 hour ago, NoLazyShadow said:

I think you're a bit too qucik to judge. She gain more power strengh with enemies burning around her afinity range(not 10m as was told on the dev stream), her 3 strips off armor + fire proc reduce enemy's armor and stacts, dealing more and more damage. My suggestion - lets wait for the mainline, see her reworked augments and how she opetare and THEN suggest more reworks. Tbh I'm exited to see her as changing from 'press 4 and joing valkyr as one of the dead frames' to 'I.NEED.MORE.FIRE!!!'

I might. Just wanted to get my thoughts in in my 4am adrenaline rush when I wrote this.

[Xolgys]

the heat meter on ember needs to be her passive imo, and instead she needs a really synergetic 3 and a good 2. i can see the intention but basically the way her 3 is right now its an alternative option to strip armor, knock enemies around so its CC...but it knocks enemies away from her so her currently planned passive doesnt benefit from gaining distance.

her 4 looks good, fitting, nothing really to say about that, but her 2-3 and passive are totally random in my opinion. the heat meter is super good and fitting, but not as a real ability and more like a passive and instead she needs a good 2, which accelerant was, and her 3 needs really benefitial synergy with her heat meter.

also the heat meter penalty...losing all energy....that needs to be a fixed cost, like "when the heat meter fills, ember explodes in a high AoE thermonuclear burst, burning anything in the area to dust and leaving lucky survivors under radiation, at the cost of 33% of her total energy."

all energy is waaaay to insane even if it was an absolute map nuke, literally, except for exterminate maybe and even 33% of her total energy is a lot, considering it scales dynamically with flow/primed flow for example.

accelerant was fine but could as well get modernised to be a bit more, since depsite being good its pretty boring/straight forward. it could as well spread heat proccs to enemies too close to already burning enemies and increase all existing heat procc damage too. the +ability power from her current passive idea could be tied to accelerant -> it grants flat ability power for its duration too, based on the heat meter whilst consuming a portion of it.

not too much of a vauban player so ill leave that the experienced ppl, tho i gotta say that i find most of his grenades, especially the speed pad and zip line grenade pretty....useless.

[GentlePuppet]

I've already posted this in the devstream overview but I figured I'd repost so DE has a better chance see it.

Ember's rework looks interesting. I've taken a look and thought over the rework. And while I don't have any numbers to go on this is what I personally think.

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• New Passive - Spicy: Gains ability strength based on the number of enemies on fire within a range around her. Numbers aren’t final and are pending testing.

This sounds very promising. While I sometimes use her current passive to quickly charge up energy, either with some self procing fire weapons or those lil patches of flaming soot, this sounds much nicer to have.

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• First Ability - Fireball: This hasn’t changed too much. We fixed a lot of animation latency, should be able to spam it more easily.

This just sounds like a straight up buff if anything.

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• Second Ability - Immolation (Replacing Accelerant): When cast, Ember Immolates herself with protective fire armor. Her current level of self-Immolation is indicated by a unique UI indicator; the higher the heat, the more damage resistance, and the more effective Ember’s other abilities become.
• Your first and fourth abilities contribute to this meter, your third lessens it. Make sure to manage it carefully, because if you fill it completely, you will overheat and unleash a wave of fire, expending all your energy.

Before Update 11.5 we had Overheat which was replaced by Accelerant. Overheat was basically exactly the same thing as Immolation but without the overheating ui part of the ability and instead of boosting abilities it would boost damage. So Immolation is just Overheat 2.0.
While I like this one I also hate it. I love the idea of once again having damage resistance on Ember so she's not as squishy in high level areas, but I also do like to use Accelerant. Using it to stun dangerous targets to unload into their faces or to coat a large area and then spam fire blast to quickly evaporate enemies will be missed. It's replacing a stun/damage boost ability with damage reduction. IDK if it'll be duration based or channeled. It sounds like it'll be channeled, But we'll have to see.

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• Third Ability - Fire Blast: This no longer uses duration, and instead is an AOE ability focused on armor stripping and CC. Knock back enemies upon cast, and melt their armor off! 

It looks like when they replaced Accelerant with Overheat 2.0 they combined Accelerant with Fireblast except they removed the fire damage boost it gave, and made it strip armor. Also instead of the enemies panicking (temp stunned) from being set on fire they just get knocked down which is basically the same thing. Sounds like it's a 2 in 1 spam move if it still deals damage. You can blast off armor and then it should deal more damage when you cast it again. But it probably won't deal as much damage as the old 1 2 of Accelerant then Fireblast currently does. So this could be a good buff or a nerf. (Stripping armor is always a plus tho so...)

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• Fourth Ability - Inferno (replacing World on Fire): Upon casting Inferno, all enemies currently within sight are struck by a fiery comet, lighting each target ablaze. As they run around with their pants literally on fire (those liars), they can also catch other enemies alight, spreading the blaze.

Instead of a channeled ability that burns and temporarily stuns enemies near you, it's a single use cast that lights enemies around you on fire and from the wording it sounds like they will panic and run around bumping into each other (or not maybe they'll just still walk/run around normally) and they spread the fire to others (Like Saryns Spores but they spread based on contact instead of shooting them.) It does sound a bit like a downgrade to me cause it's no longer a controlled forced proc and is reliant on rng of enemies running into each other.
We'll have to wait until we can test it our selves but I'm not sure I like that her 4th is getting replaced. Even with the range nerf it previously got I think I'll still prefer World on Fire over Inferno.

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It seems like they're changing her from being a mostly passive/slightly active dps with the ability to stun to a more supportive and mostly active dps frame designed to strip armor.

Overall I have to say I'm not entirely sure I like it. With the theoretical merging of Accelerant and Fireblast that should mean that her 2 isn't necessarily replacing anything but is added to her set while Fireblast just got some stuff added to it. This on paper sounds pretty ok, but we'll have to see when she gets released if it's any good.

Now, I think the only 2 reasons people are saying to "rework" ember was mainly because of Update 11.5 when you replaced Overheat and then Update 22.12 where you changed World of Fire, so once you fully heated up the range was reduced by double while the damage increased by 100%, instead of just being the set damage being at the set range that it was. These are what really set off the whole "ember was nerfed into the ground" and "ember sucks now" debates.
I Imagine if you kept the current rework you have set up but instead of changing World on Fire to inferno you reversed the range penalty, so it starts at half the range and reaches full range one fully heated up, as well as probably increasing the heat up time and either removing or lowering the damage bonus, then people would be very happy with this rework. I'm sure there are people who are already happy with the current rework you have set but I'm not 100% on it.