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Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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Posted (edited)

I love the ideas for Ember rework, but I also have some concerns.

1. Fireball – based on what I've seen in the preview, it looks like there's no sense using Fireball because Inferno does the same things but better (kills stuff and increases overheat meter). Perhaps make it so that Inferno decreases heat, so that Fireball is the only ability that increases it?

2. Immolation – this is essentially a passive effect, because why would I ever want to disable it? This means that I get one less ability to use. Why not make Immolation a passive effect (perhaps replacing the Power bonus for enemies on fire) and add another active ability in its place?

General comments

Currently, Ember gameplay is "cast Accelerant to debuff and stun enemies > cast World on Fire to kill them", so I only use 2 buttons. After the rework, I expect I'll be casting Fire Blast to debuff and stun enemies (and reduce the heat meter) and Inferno to kill them (and increase the heat meter). For me it will probably be more fun because I like managing resources, and Inferno definitely looks cooler than World on Fire, but I'll still be using 2 buttons. I would very much prefer a design where I'll want to use all 4 abilities often enough, like I do on Saryn.

Edited by Macalar

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It seems they merged topics again,lost the topic I posted,probably implemented in here somewhere..gotta look for it now.

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Sticky Ripline and Nail Grenade should hopefully do a bit more than how they were presented.

Sticky Ripline

  • Should pull new targets if the old ones got killed.
  • Maybe link together to enemies also stuck to other Sticky Ripline mines in proximity.
  • Should do something more than hard CC. Hard CC is present in Vauban's kit in various forms already, so function overlap should be accompanied with unique perks
    • We have Tesla for single target prolonged stun with AoE damage and Electric procs.
    • Orbital Strike for scaling damage + ragdolling enemies away from the point of impact.
    • Bastille for holding enemies still for easy headshots, armor strip over time, and ally armor bonus. Vortex for essentially infinite amounts of enemies clumped together, whereas Sticky Ripline seems to only pull 2.
  • Suggestion for additional perk - Sticky Ripline distributes a % of damage dealt to one stuck enemy to the other stuck enemy. If Sticky Riplines can link, the damage is distributed to all stuck enemies.

Nail Grenade

  • Nails should have Punch-Through so they can hit enemies behind enemies.
  • Puncture and Slash procs with a moddable status chance.
  • Draws enemy aggro and absorbs their hits, dealing it back in the nails shot out.
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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, AnOldAlias said:

I agree with this. If it does still take away all of your energy at launch, at least give you a duration buff that gives you amazing energy regen, maybe scaling with heat procs as well in some way. So if it does take your energy away, you still gain energy back at a high rate. A bit like Ember's old passive(which tbh should prob' stay in along with her new, but that's just my opinion).

EDIT: IIRC the energy take away was from her ultimate, which is what I'm talkin' about here. But if it's from Overheat, well, sorta still counts I guess, but yeah.

Solution: Keep the old passive with the 'bonus power and energy while on fire' and have overheat set her on fire after draining all her energy.

Edited by Colyeses

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19 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

 

Why was Accelerant, her best ability, removed? Although her armor stripping could make up for it. But still, it'd make more sense to remove Fireball and keep Accelerant. But I'll trust what I saw since it did look fun! 🙂

Why is Fireball still your generic first skill? Can something else be added to it? The charge mechanic is extremely silly because in what scenario would I not want more damage and range? Perhaps give it the ability to weaken enemies in range to Heat damage as the old Accelerant did?

 

This makes the most sense to me.  Accelerant has been awesome, and is the only thing keeping her playable in high level content (despite the people who believe she is just low-level mob clear - she was just substandard because of the lack of survivability without anything like stealth or gimmicks to make to up for fragility) all this time.

I was thinking the exact same thing about how it actually might not even be necessary however with the armor strip, but no reason to throw out something so iconic and which has kept her relevant all this time.  Meanwhile, Fireball is still.... kind of awful.

Makes sense just to combine all of this in the way you propose.  Since the armor strip makes it so we probably won't need Accelerant on the trash mobs like Butchers and Lancers, we can instead make it single-target through a charged Fireball.  Whack a Level 100 Bombard with first armor strip, then the current Accelerant effect (now on a charged Fireball) and he's going to be fried crispy and crunchy in no time.  Now that sounds like satisfying gameplay that encourages good targeting and using abilities together (3 to armor strip, 1 for accelerant, and 4 or a heat-based weapon to finish).

TL;DR - Putting the current Accelerant effect on charged Fireballs would be a smart move.  It gives value to an ability that still doesn't look appealing to use, and avoids a missed opportunity in keeping the Accelerant effect in some way, shape, or form (as it is very satisfying and effective to use).

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Posted (edited)

I love Ember's rework, the team did an amazing work with all the new abilities. Vauban's rework also looks fun and all of his abilities now have many uses. I am a bit unsure about the usefulness of the new minelayer skills, damage amp seems to be the best out of all, the nail gun turret looks like it won't add much to his kit. Perhaps his speed pad could also give a movement buff that lasts a bit after you go through, it just seems a bit clunky for movement but it is only a dev build.

 Also rip to Bouncy pads 😛

Overall, really glad two of my favorite frames are getting a rework and thanks to the devs who devoted their time for reviving Vauban and Ember!

Edited by NocturnalTrance

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4 hours ago, Azamagon said:

VAUBAN:

What a mixed bag. Some great things, some "... why?!" things. Sigh.

Tesla - Added mobility to this skill is a huge boost to his playstyle capabilities. Huge thumbs up from me!

Minelayer - Urgh. This is where the extreme and utter disappointment kicks in. Why does he still have the clunky "quiver" mechanic? WHY? And... what are these horrendous skills? You replaced 4 skills with 4 new ones, and they're almost all WORSE than the old ones. Yikes! So many chances, so many fails.

Tether - ... or just use Vortex? How redundant. Sure, it's usable, but why add "Vortex Light" in the first place when you already have Vortex?

Nailgun - ... or just use Orbital Strike / your weapons. Looks absolutely pathetic, both visually and in effect. No idea what went through Scott's head with this one. Add its area-DPS-effect as an aftereffect to Orbital Strike instead.

Speedboost - ... is this a joke? Like, really? I LAUGHED when I saw this skill. Then I almost cried realizing this was an actual new part of his kit. I mean... WHAT IS THIS CRAP?! Just sprinting and/or bulletjumping is more useful (moreso because you have CONTROL over it).

Damageamp - While arguably the best of the bunch, how BLAND can you get? Urgh.

Scrap Minelayer ENTIRELY. Here's a non-redundant replacement for ya:

Bunker - Toss a grenade which forms a protective dome (like Snow Globe - similar scaling too, but weaker). Max 6 can be placed. While Vauban or his allies are inside a Bunker, they gain a small damage amp and a reloadspeed bonus (effects linger for a while after leaving). Vauban can pick up a Bunker to carry it as mobile protective shell, but this greatly reduces the size of the shield (only just covers around him).

Augment: Fortification - Allies gain X shields every second (can grant overshields) and restore X% of their max ammo every second while inside a Bunker.

There ya go. No redundancy. No clunk. And the only true loss from Minelayer (the damageamp) is preserved in Bunker too. Easy peasy.

Orbital Strike - Meh. If it does some seriously good damage, I can see it useable in place of having AoE-weapons. Maybe. At least has some synergy with Vortex. I hope it has some utility though, so you're enticed to use it regardless of what weapon you're carrying. Things I could see to make it ACTUALLY good though:

  • Proximity mine style. I.e. it doesn't attack until at least one enemy enters its AoE.
  • Lingering DPS. After it shoots, make it leave some effect on the ground (like a plasma-like fire, Radiation damage?) - as mentioned above, this means the "Nailgun" gets added here, basicly, more or less keeping it, but in a better place.
  • Some utility - Slowdown in the area, perhaps?

Bastille - Not much to say, looks good. Will likely continue to be his main use (along with the new Teslas, and potentially with Orbital Strike if it's worthwhile to use).

 

^This.Obviously coming from a fellow Vauban player who knows what Vauban needs.This part right here shows that you would of done a better rework than Scott.As a Vauban main for almost 2 years,this is exactly one of the things I would actually be looking forward to for his rework.

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Posted (edited)

Never thought that i would see a Vauban rework - a REAL Vauban rewok - during my time here.

The new Minelayer abilities are overall nice, better than the old ones. only the Speedpad is a bit meh. Not sure how i would use that since we still have Bulletjump spam. Nailbomb looks fun for a defensive use over time, damage looks decent too with 400dmg at lv 200 enemies.

Orbital Strike is...awesome! Cant wait to play with it. Not sure how the throwing animation fits his flow, but damn, over 9000 damage to level 200 Grineer? I love that! And it has scaling damage? Pheeew

Bastille now Buffs and Strips Armor? Awesome, just what we wanted. And its now merged with Vortex? And they move to eachother for even more gathering? AWESOME!

So really, good job giving him a job again. Looks like a very fun frame now.

 

But...what happens with his Augments?

Tesla Link on Rollers?

Is there still a Cap on his Bastille?

What happens with Perpetual Vortex now that it is merged with Bastille?

Edited by LazerusKI

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Posted (edited)

My biggest concern with ember is that her abilities are strongest against infested, being the most likely enemy to have neither shields nor armor, but that means you will likely come across parasitic eximus. With an ability that can drain all energy in one shot, and the energy drain of the enemy, it seems like you will end up with no energy a lot.

 

My suggestion is instead of a single energy depleting blast on overheat, instead I would like to see her catch on fire when above a certain percent (with an intense animation), and operate similar to gauss, where instead of damage reduction, she takes increasing amounts of fire damage. It's a fun concept of mitigating self damage vs ramping up the damage of her abilities to dish it out, which fits well within the qualities of fire and fits very nicely with the title of the ability.

Assuming the above change was implemented, I'd also like to see her 3rd give a small health boost when she is above that percentage, in a sense, cooling off and healing from the self damage from the above. Nothing like trinity, maybe 30% capped or lower, just something to keep the flames burning

Edited by (XB1)Psychotic Sane
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Noooooo Ember I liked my easy-peasy-press-4-to-win frame. 😞

Yeah, yeah, I know, git gud, but I'm the kind of person who sets video games to Novice or Very Easy because that's the way it's the most fun for me. Dammit. I guess I better find another set & forget frame before this rolls out. Too bad I spent all that time forma-ing Ember Prime, though.

As for actual useful feedback, I do agree with the people saying the drain energy mechanic is too punishing. I have Ember modded so her max energy is 450, and to have that all suddenly vanish is annoying enough in Sanctuary Onslaught -- and that's not even down to zero.

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1 hour ago, PsiWarp said:

Sticky Ripline and Nail Grenade should hopefully do a bit more than how they were presented.

Sticky Ripline

  • Should pull new targets if the old ones got killed.
  • Maybe link together to enemies also stuck to other Sticky Ripline mines in proximity.
  • Should do something more than hard CC. Hard CC is present in Vauban's kit in various forms already, so function overlap should be accompanied with unique perks
    • We have Tesla for single target prolonged stun with AoE damage and Electric procs.
    • Orbital Strike for scaling damage + ragdolling enemies away from the point of impact.
    • Bastille for holding enemies still for easy headshots, armor strip over time, and ally armor bonus. Vortex for essentially infinite amounts of enemies clumped together, whereas Sticky Ripline seems to only pull 2.
  • Suggestion for additional perk - Sticky Ripline distributes a % of damage dealt to one stuck enemy to the other stuck enemy. If Sticky Riplines can link, the damage is distributed to all stuck enemies.

Nail Grenade

  • Nails should have Punch-Through so they can hit enemies behind enemies.
  • Puncture and Slash procs with a moddable status chance.
  • Draws enemy aggro and absorbs their hits, dealing it back in the nails shot out.

Even if the ideas come from you,I don't really think that it can help with the redundancy  of these 2 mines.It's funny though..they wanted to move away from redundancy but it still lingers.
Btw,Speed pads....seriously..
Still a Memelayer if you ask me,except the Damage amp,but like other people already said..it's just so bland...

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Overall, the rework will definitely make him stronger. Both Bastille and vortex are preserved while also getting a 30~50 percent damage boost and a pretty fun and decent damage ability (orbital strike). 

And now I complain.

His fourth ability is too strong and too good compared to the rest of his kit. WHY DOES IT HAS ARMOR STRIP? This one ability makes half of minelayer and Tesla way inferior, even with its lowered energy cost in mind. The 4th ability of a warframe should be strong, but it should not outshine his entire kit.

Tesla is still quite bad. The first problem is that you need to charge it cuz one ball is useless. Secondly, (I think) you need to kill the enemy it's attached to for it to follow you again. They might stick on to an enemy behind a door. Never killing it, and force you to track down the enemy yourself.

3/4 of minelayer is not good, ranging from questionable to useless. The implementation of the speed boost is questionable because it looks like it gives the player momentum rather than a straightforward speed boost. Might get annoying. The other two CC mine's are really dumb. The hook/line is just a super underpowered vortex and the nail shooter is an actual joke. I think the armor striping part of vortex should be move to here.

 

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Vauban rewok NICE but: animation of skills 3 and 4 looks stupid. Can't be how it is now or how is it with new skill 2? Why any jumps?

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Vauban rewok NICE but: animation of skills 3 and 4 looks stupid. Can't be how it is now or how is it with new skill 2? Why any jumps?

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Posted (edited)

Vauban? Too strong? He is still a crowd control Warframe, and if Nyx shows us anything about crowd control in 2019, the practicality isn't there. Vauban's kit is improving dramatically, but I still don't see where he would be played when Excavation is ruled by Khora/Frost, and most other game modes can be completed with any combination setup.

Also, Simulacrum testing a Warframe is a good start, but no where near the environment of real gameplay. I would take what you saw on stream with a grain of salt as it's work in progress and will probably feel different in missions.

Edited by Voltage
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you saw a work in progress rework with new not completed animations that is all still subject to change and unable to actually be tested by players to see the effectiveness of the abilities. You might be jumping the gun a little

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Does that not also describe nearly every other frame? Having one really good ability while the others are useless or just unnecessary is a bit standard.

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I'll just concentrate on one paragraph to save time. However,  the entire topic is complete nonsense in the very same kind.

vor 9 Minuten schrieb K1eranS3npai:

Tesla is still quite bad. The first problem is that you need to charge it cuz one ball is useless.

Ohhh. so you playtested it already? Good to know!

vor 9 Minuten schrieb K1eranS3npai:

Secondly, (I think) you need to kill the enemy

Oh? So if you played the rework already, shouldn't you know already if the bahaves this way?

Ofcourse if you havn't and you are purely making assumptions, you maight want to actually think, before posting actually constructive feedback, after you have actually had the chance to play the rework.

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Posted (edited)

Ember:

Fireball mostly left unchanged? Why?! It's a painful slow, energy-costly and low damage ability in a small area...

The animation of the Inferno looks great. Much armor melting seems to happen which is great.

First Impression: Interesting, but let us see the numbers!

 

Vauban:

Please give Tesla some staying power. If you have to recast them every 30 secs for some stun procs, I will not care using it.

Range and damage and visual effect  of nail grenade looks underwhelming. Sticky seems to have a limit of two enemies affected, which is a bit too low.

Boost pad is too gimicky and can be used for trolling. Damage boost seems to be the nobrainer choice but also pretty bland.

Orbital strike looks fantastic, but even when it scales good (which I doubt), why should I spend 75 energy and use it on clustered enemies when I can use a melee weapon?

First impression: Bastille is really powerful in this implementation (perhaps too good?). The rest of his kit doesn't look convincing to me.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sahansral

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Okay I do think that this Vauban changes are pretty cool, but has anyone ever thought of how useful this "new ember" would be? seriously...

From my own point of view, no one, and I MEAN NO ONE has taken time to watch enemies die to DoT right in front of them.. Everyone uses their weapons in their line of sight to kill enemies so before you all come out and say this ember nerf is "good changes", please think this through. As of right now, ember still has its uses in low level missions ( I personally love using it to farm Cryotics on earth excavation, or running exterminations faster), but if its 4th gets nerfed, ember becomes useless frame, that's just in inventory to fill empty slots.(there are lot more frames that specialize in direct dmg with small AoEs or even melee with range mods. Well I don't know what you all think of the future of this warframe, but I think that removal of its 4th will kill that frame.

As for those who think that ember is squishy, you all seem to be using her with wrong build. As long as you get her 4th's syndicate mod "Firequake", enemies will have trouble hitting you.

In my opinion, every warframe must have it's powers specialized for different types of missions so that they all remain relevant, and wont be "just for collection" frames like many of them right now.

The way I see it, there are a lot of those people who just shout praises of ALL changes made by devs, instead of actually giving useful feedback and criticizing. Please unless you want this game to die, give useful feedback that actually improves uses of all the frames. 

Also i'd like to ask, why is ember getting rework and not other frames that are completely useless for any sort of mission and not used?

In short, in my opinion, this changes of ember is "nerf" that will most likely kill her and will make her useless.

 

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21 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

the new 2 just doesnt make sense being an ability and not a passive. And the new passive doesnt seem very useful as they need living enemies in melee range. The punishment for going to max overheat also doesnt make sense, especially when gauss only gains from overcharging. This is just to force people to use her 3.

You want entire damage reduction/casting speed boost/ability damage boost mechanic to be her new passive? That seems like asking for a bit much.

I disagree about the passive, and here's why:

It makes me think of Garuda, one of my favorite frames. Its risky to run around with 2 health but it gives her a 100% damage buff. Risk/reward ratio is perfect, and forces me to play differently to maximize her potential. For example, with Ember, a player could Fireblast a group of enemies (perhaps even bunching them together with an arcane or telos boltace) and immediately cast any ability with a notable ability strength buff. 

It's definitely a different style of play. I, for one, welcome these kinds mechanics. For me, it makes the frames more fun to play.

It's all about finding the perfect balance between risk and reward.

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18 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Vauban? Too strong?

I said his 4th ability is relatively too strong compared to most of HIS OTHER ABILITY. I don't think he'll be A tier after rework but I want him to be a strong B.

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how can you bring missiles on a grineer ship with has roof? thats kind of stupid other than that its a great rework for vauban but funny thing is all of his old abilities are not in 1 ability and that shows how bad vauban was

 

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18 minutes ago, trst said:

Does that not also describe nearly every other frame? Having one really good ability while the others are useless or just unnecessary is a bit standard.

Recent frames seems to have abilities that are pretty balanced in strength. Gauss, Harrow, wisp, wukong, nezha, etc. all have pretty good 1-3 abilities beside their 4th

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