Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

[keikogi]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

But then Vauban would hardly be the "trapmaster" DE wants him to be;

I don't know what trap master has damage buffs balls and orbital strikes. I don't know why DE wen with 3 useless mines.

[Sombian]

discharge all her energy seems very bad idea to me, unless the advantage of keeping high heat gives ultra powerful buffs.

her 2nd, as its channeling ability, not a way to gain energy other than orbs. plus I dont want to keep looking at my abilities bar frequently during missions, its just too tired.

in this way regardless of buffs given, im never gonna using it.

 

[FoxFX]

I'm not confident at all with Minelayer. For one, switching around different abilities seems counter-intuitive for Vauban since he is already squishy. For second, the purpose of some of the Minelayers are things the rest of Vauban's kit can already do.

 

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

Just now, keikogi said:

I don't know what trap master has damage buffs balls and orbital strikes. I don't know why DE wen with 3 useless mines.

I can at least understand the orbital strike, it's just the sci-fi equivalent of calling for artillery.

[sehafoc]

Howdy!  I wanted to leave some feedback on the Ember rework ideas... I have about 10% of my playtime on an Ember frame (or about 150 hours) -- so naturally I'd be a little concerned about any rework, but on the other hand Ember isn't in a really good place right now.

Most of my problems with the new kit come around play style.  It seems like largely her 2 and her 4 are worse versions of Shatter Shield and Peacemaker.  This would just make her play like a less effective Mesa.  The one or Fireball... I'm not seeing the single target stuff working too well,  and it's unclear how the 4 will actually feel in play.  That being said change in functionality of the 3 is interesting... We'll have to wait and see I guess.

What I would do if I ruled the world is make some slight changes to these to change up the play style a little bit.  Most of the suggestions don't actually require too much change but are just slight augments to make Ember different enough to actually be a better choice for some content.  That being said, I think what I'd like to see with the current suggestions to be more AoE buff / debuff DoT kit.  This would allow some interesting play while in longer missions where you typically only sit in a few rooms killing many enemies in mass. Or a defense mission where you have choke points you can defend,  etc...

At any rate here are the suggestions...

Fire Blast changes:
1) Change Fire Blasts KD to the panic we used to get out of Accelerant.  KD is pretty annoying to deal with and typically doesn't play well with others
2) Bring back the ring, make it scale with range, and give it a damage bonus worth people wanting to stand in it.  (additive CC?, half of a *normal* damage buff people actually use (like Total Eclipse, Vex Armor))?
3) Trade positions or the 2, and 3.  Make Fire Blast spammable and cost less as it seems like a good temporary CC.

Inferno changes (maybe?)
It's unclear how Inferno works so perhaps I'm being a little presumptuous here,  but bare with me.
1) Allow Inferno to operate on an area for it's duration in addition to on the enemies it's burning.

2) Remove the burning animation from the 4, allowing enemies to still funnel through areas to be killed with out slowing them down creating a KPS detriment. (besides... you have a spammable 2 now)

What I'm envisioning the play style is like here, is that we get a frame that can be more of a battlefield tactician.  Leaving (hopefully large) areas of buff and de-buffing for the team.  With a quick AoE armor strip and stun.  There isn't really a frame that plays like this currently.

Anyways I realize that early feedback on features that haven't been play tested are probably not correct.  Thanks for reading!

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

If you ask me, removing Speed pads and putting Teslas into Minelayer would be fine. I honestly doubt there’s any need to keep them exclusively apart: Teslas are a nade just like anything you see in Minelayer. Teslas taking the first grenade option in Minelayer and bumping down Minelayer down as a power 1 is fitting if we’re doing this, and it was already mentioned in the devstream that Minelayer will be a 25 cast cost ability.

That then leads to opening another potential ability for power 2. Whatever it may be, it gives DE more wiggle room to refine Vauban even further.

But the most important change that I encourage everyone to keep in mind is the energy cost dynamics for Vauban, especially where it pertains to Bastille/Vortex. Bastille and Vortex has always been the core abilities in Vauban’s kit, and as players that run Vauban we will be casting them very often on the field. Please do not justify Bastille/Vortex as his ultimate or power 4, as it would imply a cast cost of 75-100. Vauban is a caster frame, and making the one ability that will be cast very frequently to have a high energy cost is not a good thing. Bumping Bastille/Vortex down to a power 3 is an appropriate change, as it would entail a cheaper cast cost for how players can utilize Vauban on the field with a potential 50-75 cast cost.

[Lone_Dude]

Really digging the Ember changes, but good God, that penalty for Immolation overheat is too harsh.
Not only do you lose DR as it overheats, you also lose the ability to recast it and quickly charge it up since your energy is at 0. What's the point? Is it the DARK SOULS OF ALL WARFRAME ABILITIES? Should it motivate me to constantly spam her 3? Not cast her 1 or 4? Or maybe I should be ready to spam energy pads the moment I overheat? Losing DR is already bad as it is, since in warframe you can get oneshot by some random dudebro at any point.

TL;DR overheat shouldn't lock me out of using ALL of her abilities, since at that point I might just use any other frame.

If you really want to punish players for not paying attention, how about, I dunno, simply allowing it to damage the player, based on their total health percentage? It's only natural that overheat causes a heat proc, no? If player activates Immolation again right away, damage received will be reduced, so it's going to function as a good wake up call and energy management mechanic. Might go one step further and give it a positive to mix it up. On overheat Ember is set on fire, and just like her 4, enemies in range are set on fire for the duration of status effect being active on her. Might motivate players to be more active and agressive, I realize that overheat blast will kill and set enemies nearby on fire, but why not bullet jump to a next group of enemies and cause even more havoc in a berserk-like fashion, while using other abilities in the process, thus building up the charge once again?

I don't know where you got the idea for Overheat from, but it reminds me of Holosmith from Guild Wars 2. That class receives some rather hard penatlies on Overheat as well, but Guild Wars 2 is different from Warframe. Some abilities have 3 minute cooldowns and some abilities can be modified, changing drastically from their original form. I don't think that you people are planning on adding 3 different augments for Immolation(because that's how much versions of overheat for Holosmith are in GW2), so you should probably rethink this one.

[weeaboopotato]

A suggestion that might help give an idea for minelayer to be useful. It was an old post I made in Raehetalius'es discord server. An augment that will give what is soon to be old vauban's ability synergy and make minelayer somewhat worth using.

 

[Azamagon]

I agreed that Minelayer is still a piece of garbage.

Tether = Vortex exists.

Nailgun = Orbital Strike and weapons exist (however, a lingering DPS-field could be attached to Orbital Strike so it feels less empty. Along with making Orbital Strike work like a proximity mine = absolutely golden!).

Speed pad = Lol. What a joke.

Damage amp = Good, but boring.

 

As for your replacments, I feel the Teleportation pad is kinda... not too useful (while exploitative in niche situations). Jammer looks much better, imo. What I feel Vauban misses though, is some kind of defensive utility skill.

Thus here's my replacement idea:

BUNKER

• Vauban tosses a ball which deploys a moderate-size dome of protection (think Frost's Snow Globe without the pushback and slowdown, and also a bit weaker and a tad smaller)
• Max 6 Bunkers can be placed at once.
• Vauban can pick up a Bunker (press X) to make it a smaller dome of personal protection (for movable defense)
• Allies inside a Bunker (Vauban too ofc) gain a damage amp (similar to the Damage amp from Minelayer) and a reloadspeed bonus - this gives it some utility aside from just being protection.
• Augment: Fortification = Allies (Vauban too ofc) inside a Bunker gain X shields (can gain Overhisleds) and X% of max ammo every second.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

Id be fine with minelayer if a few things changed. Give the Nail grenade a high radiation status chance, similar to concuss, making it more focused on CC then damage, as its damage will be nothing but pitiful. 

Id like it if the sticky mine shared damage taken among all stuck. Would be a good way to pick a few priority targets and nuke them at once. 

The boost pad I just see no use for. I saw further up someone suggest vauban having a corpus-like energy wall and I can see a lot of use from something like that, especially if it scales with range. 

The damage amp is fine as is

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Honestly I only really feel like 1 of his 3 new tools in minslayer is actually bad.  For me what I dislike about the situation is that it doesn't really get away with Slayer's overall issue.  Which was it being a gimmicky filled ability that didn't really get Booben away from feeling only cc oriented.

[skyzzo15]

Hi DE, i have some idea for Vauban ability:

On 2019-10-04 at 8:06 PM, [DE]Connor said:

-”Boost Pad” lays down a walk pad, granting a boost of speed in a chosen direction (indicated by arrows).

For this ability could have two mode:

1. When you walk on it, you recive a movement boost speed for X amount of seconds;
2. When you run on it(pressing sprint botton), you recive a sprint boost in a direction of arrows and a movement boost speed for X amount of seconds.

This is for don't use this ability for trolling or annoying others player.

On 2019-10-04 at 8:06 PM, [DE]Connor said:

-”Damage Amp” will latch onto a nearby ally, enhancing their damage output for a period of time.

Can this ability give to us a bit of fire rate and multishot boost with the damage boost?

 

On 2019-10-04 at 8:06 PM, [DE]Connor said:

BASTILLE (combined with Vortex)
Vauban’s two marquee powers have been combined into a new and devastating ultimate ability!

 

On 2019-10-04 at 8:06 PM, [DE]Connor said:

When deployed, a Bastille will capture nearby enemies, stripping enemies of their armor over time. Players standing within a Bastille’s radius will gain a temporary armor increase, building up over time based on how much armor is currently being stripped from enemies.

Bastille: The idea of getting armor by stripping enemies armor is good, but if we fighting corpus or infested can work in a differents ways:

1. Corpus, we gain a max shield and shield recharge buff;
2. Infested, we gain a health regen buff.

NOTE: This others modes work like the armor buff.

Vortex: Enemies when are killed can have a chace to drop a energy orb.

I hope these ideas could be useful for Vauban rework, sorry if my english isn't correct, good work DE!👍

[Nar_Rayya]

Just some thoughts on the vauban rework, and what I thought on it - I really like where its going, but really think we should remove minelayer.

Vauban is CC, and that's always been his thing, so he needs to keep that as his primary role, but perhaps change the way his cc works so he comes more viable in harder content.

TESLA DRONES
This sounds and looks really good, but in order to be used more, feel like they should add something extra too. These new Tesla Drones will roll around, following the player. Once an enemy comes within range, these Drones will latch on and emit a shock that stuns the target for x seconds, and the drones last for x number of shocks before being replaced.
In addition, each enemy killed after being hit by a Drone increases Vauban's Amplifier.

OVERLOAD 50 energy
Vauban emits an electric pulse with range of x metres around him. All enemy electronics are temporarily disabled, e.g. weapons jammed, for x seconds - including nullifier shields. This is usable even within a nullifier bubble.

BASTILLE/VORTEX
Standard bastille and vortex. Keep Bastille's armour stripping, but give a different buff depending on enemy - corpus, shields, grinder armour, infested health.

ORBITAL STRIKE
A deployable beacon marks a location on the map. After a short countdown, the area is struck by a massive orbital laser explosion (and yes, it does work indoors). Instead of a locked cast animation, make this a deplorable grenade.
 
ELECTRICAL AMPLIFIER (passive)
Every enemy killed after being hit by Vauban's drones increases his Amplifier charge. As Vauban's Amplifier increases, it powers the circuits of his warframe and bolstering his defences, with each enemy providing a damage reduction buff of x%, to a cap of x%.
In addition, his Amplifier metre provides an additional buff to his other abilities.
Overload: vauban and allies receive damage buff to incapacitated enemies to a max of 25%
Bastille/Vortex: each charge increases the duration by x%
Orbital Strike: each charge increases the damage of Strike by x%
Whilst the use of other abilities drains the Amplifier metre, it does not limit using the ability, it just reduces the amount of buff you receive.

Reason for this Amplifier is to provide Vauban with some survivability - using the balls to charge his amplifier, whilst simultaneously using the metre to improve the base abilities. 2 and 3 serve as his crowd control, limiting enemy capability and providing ability no other frame has (counter nullified whilst within a bubble), and his 1 provides a brief stun on any enemy in range. His ultimate would provide decent damage and wouldn't be a press 4 to win, as you have to use your CC to manage your enemies in such a way to maximise the damage potential you can provide in a certain location.
Obviously, I'm not exactly sure how numbers work for this and what would be balanced - but I've tried to keep the ideas of this proposed rework (drones, combo of bastille/vortex, and the orbital strike) as well as provide something entirely new (with overload).
Just my thoughts anyway, hope it could be useful.

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

Everything looks pretty good so far, ember is getting more active offense and survivability as well as Vuban getting the same treatment.

Only thing im concerned of is embers gauge. If it fills up at the wrong time that can VERY easily get you killed.

[consy92]

Thanks for the reworking of Ember.
Bringing the range from 10m to 50m is great!
The second ability is to be reconsider, If the bar reaches its maximum it scoop out all the energy.. This is not good, it's too big a penalty. Moreover, a reduction of damage similar to Gara is required, 90% would be magnificent on a weak warframe like Ember. This penalty is fine: if I'm inattentive I have to start over (and it's already dangerous if I'm at level 150+.).
The world on fire, now Inferno, must to have a good 360° range, otherwise it would be almost useless. A range like Saryn 4 or Equinox 4 i think It could go well.
The new heat damage must have a useful armor strip, also it must be quite durable over time.

Thank you for your attention and thank you for your work.

[Mursen]

I had an idea to get a better tesla drone. One thing that I read around here is that it loose the ability to lockdown a zone. So we could have a venary style drones. You summon them with one click and clicking for a moment get you decide if they stop moving, if they follow another tenno (or NPC) or if they follow you. It would be slower to get an army but it will gain in control and could adapt to more missions types (and the nasty NPC defence mission). The lock down could be where they are or where you aim, and the other tenno could be through aim or the one who is closer. 

 

[PartyzantPL]

i like Ember because WoF is unikal skill, if INFERNO will replace WoF  them must be 360 degree skill like WoF,  otherwise it  will  be S#&$ and no one will play it, better  change fireball for something  else.

[Regalation]

If World on Fire is replaced, This Frame will do the same as ASH.
I haven't used it since Rework. has become useless to me.
I like this feature as it is, nerfelt it, but a usable AOE remains.
I understand the need to upgrade. But when that happens, they ruin something that has been happening since the beginning of the game.

[(PSN)Warframe_Elite_1]

was the enemy cap on bastille removed?

[HolySeraphin]

1 hour ago, PartyzantPL said:

i like Ember because WoF is unikal skill, if INFERNO will replace WoF  them must be 360 degree skill like WoF,  otherwise it  will  be S#&$ and no one will play it, better  change fireball for something  else.

They said line of sight, It could work like radial javelin, where it hits everything in a 360° angle as long as they're not behind a wall, except that this Inferno will actually kill high level enemies.

[Maka.Bones]

There are a lot of players crying and whatever...

 

The same thing happened with wukong's rework. The same thing happened with Wisp's reservoirs.  Both of those, are warframes people love now, despite all the bashing they underwent. Wisp's reservoirs underwent the most bashing, and people enjoy that ability the most. 

 

So please devs, just stick to your vision this time. Sure listen to suggestions, but please don't make any major changes. Let us try the rework first, before you do anything major. 

 

No one can agree on what ember should do, or should be instead. Many people loved the old WoF, and many people like that you got rid of it. Many people like the new passive, and others don't. Please devs, just stick to your guns.... A lot of people are talking smack without even trying the rework, so please just let us try them before you change anything. I'm sure many of those people will magically change their minds later, as long as your work was well done to provide a fun experience as you intended. As long as the abilities/powers are effective at what they're meant to do.

 

I do have my own opinions and preferences... I think ember moves too slow, and that the meteor animation is a bit too slow/long. I wanted her to move around like Bakugo, from My Hero Academia, moves around with his explosions... I wanted ember to be a Bakugo/gauss-like brawler... and I wish you had done a few things a bit differently, but you're the devs, you're the designers, and I'd rather play with the warframes first before I say too much. We might still enjoy the changes, even if they're not what we wanted. 

 

Just make sure you don't do a rush job, just to get it out of the way. Think about what you do critically.... Play it yourself, and see if you enjoy it (or let someone play it, and give you feedback). Then make your decision and stick to it. Most of us are talking without even playing the warframes, so please let us play them before you take what we say too seriously into account. 

 

Don't be scared to repeat some things, don't be scared to copy some things, don't be scared to go to older things.... Just pursue what is fun to play, without breaking the game or the experience for others... But please don't let all of the disgruntled feedback from some-many players discourage you. 

[(XBOX)Xebu]

Have to say this Ember rework is pretty awful! This is not Ember, may as well have just made a new frame.

Ember was a nice trash mob frame, a bit squishy and not that strong against high level enemies any more, but unique and with a purpose. So rather than address the shortcoming (See Wukong!) she's now turned into another high maintenance frame discarding her one unique feature in the process. As it is I see zero reason to use rework Ember over other frames so it's DOA for me.

Her new 3 and 4 are basically the same, one localised boom, one targeted boom. The new 4 may look cool but it's just Vauban's new 3 with different effects. And making heat better but removing accelerant!??

Oh, almost forgot, Ember can still spread her fire because enemies can pass it on. Because of course we all want to keep our enemies alive enough to spread the joy. Oh wait, we already have Saryn doing this the right way.

My two penn'orth:

• Just ditch the bong mechanic, good synergy does not mean just linking all abilities to a meter.
• 1 can be used to set enemies on fire to keep the spread mechanic, enemies spread fire and explode if killed directly extending the spread range.
• Allow accelerant to also boost defence. Still call it immolation if you like, being on fire boosts everything. Scale based on damage absorbed. Augment option: Extend duration but halve scaling.
• Merge your new 4 into 3, tap 3 to target explode, hold 3 to power up a local explosion.
• 4 retains classic World on Fire.

You now have Ember but better. 2 addresses squishy and dmg, 3 provides focused damage for high level, all while retaining the trash clearing of 4.

Vauban on the other hand retains his uniqueness, fixes his flaws and I am really looking forward to that one*

* boost pad trolls pending. Can imagine this being royally abused in Hydron. Maybe boost only works if you're facing the same direction and/or sprinting.
 

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Xebu said:

Ember was a nice trash mob frame, a bit squishy and not that strong against high level enemies any more, but unique and with a purpose. So rather than address the shortcoming (See Wukong!) she's now turned into another high maintenance frame discarding her one unique feature in the process. As it is I see zero reason to use rework Ember over other frames so it's DOA for me.

Anyone can be a trash mob frame... I mean, you really only just need an ignis and you're good.

 

We wanted her to be able to perform at high levels though, not to be a trash mob frame... Because most of the content we enjoy is in higher levels, where she struggles... where we actually play and enjoy the game. So I actually appreciate these changes. 

[VentiGlondi]

Let's just go full Sienna Fuegonasus and make Ember explode and die when she overheats.

[(XBOX)Xebu]

3 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Anyone can be a trash mob frame... I mean, you really only just need an ignis and you're good.

 

We wanted her to be able to perform at high levels though, not to be a trash mob frame... Because most of the content we enjoy is in higher levels, where she struggles... where we actually play and enjoy the game. So I actually appreciate these changes. 

Hence my suggestion to address those shortcomings and still retain her current utility.

Or course, not every frame has to do high level, many can't. The beauty of Warframe is that every frame has a purpose, or a speciality, or some USP, Ember is looking to lose hers.

I just think she can still be the Ember we know AND the Ember we want!

P.S. Don't mind Ignis but prefer Amprex, Atomos, Arca, or my obscene Zaw and a fast frame for that purpose, I try to mix things up as much as practical.