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Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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I like Concuss and Shred, they should keep the effects of these mines but change how the they work. Concuss should leave a cloud of radiation after the explosion that keeps aplying the proc for a few seconds(increase with duration mods). Shred should be the nail grenade, but every nail should Shred the enemy armor permanently(and just like Concuss, duration mods affects the "turret uptime). And like I said before, they both need a bigger trigger radius. The other two mines can be defensive ones, a shield bubble that heals allies inside or something like that. The tripwire doesn't look like a bad idea if it could grapple more than just 2 enemies like it was shown, Bastille/Vortex can do a better job than that, but we need to keep in mind that Bastille is gonna cost 100 energy now, so you can't spam all the time anymore.

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5 hours ago, FoxFX said:

I'd like to add in a defensive barrier/wall suggestion for Vauban, but my fear is that the community and feedback would piggy back at it to be some sort of poor-man Snow Globe or something.

I'd take a poor man's Snow Globe. I like Frost, but I do get bored of him being my go-to defense frame all the time.

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That's all. I just hate the idea of meteors spawning from the sky. It's so generic fire mage. I preferred the organic feel of the enemies just lighting ablaze in her presence. They can keep the same Los mechanic even, just get rid of the meteors. You've already replaced 3 of her abilities, at least don't completely change the aesthetics. She was never a materialize hot rocks kind of frame.

Honestly my biggest gripe with rework. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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I'm concerned about immolation expending all energy upon filling, it's something that would be extremely punishing for newer players that dont have any real means of restoring energy but more experienced players would just offset it with Energy Pads.  
I really think there needs to be some kind of safety lock to stop it immediately trying to expend all energy, with a 3sec time frame where you can choose to reduce the bar or let it explode.

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35 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's all. I just hate the idea of meteors spawning from the sky. It's so generic fire mage. I preferred the organic feel of the enemies just lighting ablaze in her presence. They can keep the same Los mechanic even, just get rid of the meteors. You've already replaced 3 of her abilities, at least don't completely change the aesthetics. She was never materialize hot rocks kind of frame.

Honestly my biggest gripe with rework. 

Id prefer visual like the Accelerant.

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Keeping Vauban out of the realm of dealing damage only hurts him. Only making him a CC and gimmick frame is a for sure way to keep him as one of the worst frames in the game!

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
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As a person who has been expecting ANYTHING in regards of balance, and nerfs for over a year now. I've lost all hope.

Edited by Duduminador
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45 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Keeping Vauban out of the realm of dealing damage only hurts him. Only making him a CC and gimmick frame is a for sure way to keep him as one of the worst frames in the game!

Literally the only thing in his rework that was for damage that wasn't a waste of a cast was orbital strike, and it didn't appear to do that much damage. Minelayer rework is almost more useless than current minelayer.

3 hours ago, Resonant_Thoughts said:

I like Concuss and Shred, they should keep the effects of these mines but change how the they work. Concuss should leave a cloud of radiation after the explosion that keeps aplying the proc for a few seconds(increase with duration mods). Shred should be the nail grenade, but every nail should Shred the enemy armor permanently(and just like Concuss, duration mods affects the "turret uptime). And like I said before, they both need a bigger trigger radius. The other two mines can be defensive ones, a shield bubble that heals allies inside or something like that. The tripwire doesn't look like a bad idea if it could grapple more than just 2 enemies like it was shown, Bastille/Vortex can do a better job than that, but we need to keep in mind that Bastille is gonna cost 100 energy now, so you can't spam all the time anymore.

Shred should definitely be the nailgun. 100%. Little corrosive proc turret thing would be useful, and interesting.

Concuss being the only CC of its kind I think is really interesting, and I'd not like to lose that, but add a blind and make it a grenade and it would honestly be amazing. Think about having a throwable radial blind, with a deafen effect attached to it. Other things proc rad, concuss is really unique, lets keep it and make it work.

Shield bubble mine ala Nullifier type where it shrinks as it takes damage, would be sick.

The problem with the tripwire is kinda twofold. Right now it's like why would you use that over bastille? Honestly you're going to have the damage buff mine on the tap at all times, you're never going to hold to swap 1-3 times, then throw that out only to CC 2 guys. You will die before you get that off. You will always tap 4 instead. There's no way you aren't going to continue to build Vauban for max efficiency, so 25 energy is not cheap, but it's what vortex costs now, so we're already used to it. Now doing some kind of mass disarm would be an interesting choice, even though I doubt that would get used anyway.

Armor shield buffer would be better.

My thinking with the grenades and why I chose them though is that he'd have a useful grenade for basically every faction, but the others would still be useful just less so. Shred is grineer, EMP/Magnetic is corpus, slow is Infested, blind is more generally useful.

But at the very least you and I appear to agree that the demo was neat, but in the real world basically everyone will use the damage buff and nothing else.

Edited by Vinceant
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I'm kind of worried so far cause tesla and mines should have been removed entirely but they still try to make something "great" out of it. Bastille and Vortex could have been left untouched but Vauban is still lacking of synergy. Bastille could have interacted with a brand new power and Vortex could literally explode if one is looking to deal a few damages.

I'm not into manichean proselytizing such as "Vauban is dps frame" though, frames have no label. All frames can deal damage to some extent, people should stop thinking frames are some sort of classes or anything, we aren't playing Warcraft here.

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I'm a bit concerned that Vauban seems to be able to one-shot level 200 enemies with Orbital Strike if they don't have armor. To quote a certain Youtuber, I think there's a happy medium between "doesn't scale" and "!@#$s the scale in the rear" and this is not it. Granted the OS has a lengthy delay before hitting (and as such the huge damage can be seen as a reward for planning out your abilities to gather enemies effectively) but this is still edging a bit into "room nuke" territory. Beyond that, Vauban rework looks pretty much close to perfect. He was one of the first frames I ever built and I think this rework successfully gives him more tools while keeping his core appeal intact. In particular, I really look forward to messing with his new utility mines -- that boost pad made me grin like an idiot when I saw it. Good job, Scott et al! 😄

Re: Ember's meter: I actually personally like managing meters. It adds another layer of complexity to a game that's often way too simple. That said, draining the player's entire energy pool if they overheat is definitely too extreme. Personally, I think a temporary Ability Strength debuff or something of the like would be more reasonable. It'd perform the same function of putting Ember on a hard downtime while still keeping her CC intact and thus not being a death sentence at mid to high levels.
I think that in the end the meter is necessary in order to let Ember successfully be what she wants to be -- hyper AoE DPS -- without breaking the game. A frame capable of dealing huge amounts of damage to a massive area like Ember needs to have downtimes, risks, and limitations to prevent them from instantly annihilating every single enemy before they can even get close, especially at Star Chart levels where enemies die if you look at them funny.
Ember's looking great IMO, she looks really fun now and I'm happy to see a set-and-forget AoE aura finally die.

Side Note: I'm not sure how I feel about making abilities scale directly off of enemy level, as it seems like a somewhat inelegant solution to damaging abilities having nonfunctioning scaling, but at the same time an inelegant solution that works is definitely better than no solution at all, and certainly better than the solutions that have been attempted thus far.

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I'll start by saying I love the direction of Vauban, where it feels like it still retains the flow of the best aspects of his old kit, and brings in new, dynamic ones.

But this leaves me with one bad comparison to Ember's rework. There's no mention of an equivalent for one of Accelerant's most fun aspects; it boosts Heat damage from weapons as well. Now that the small ring of fire is gone from Fire Blast, she also doesn't have a way to add Heat damage to her weapons without the use of Augment mods. Without a way to boost Heat damage, using a mod slot to add Heat damage doesn't seem to have an effective use case. To my mind, Fireball Frenzy will go from a delightful addition/upgrade to an option you might only consider for Infested missions if her new kit doesn't already completely dominate them.

I appreciate any consideration you give this feedback. Thank you for all the hours of fun!

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I'm not really happy looking at Orbital Strike right now since the stats and details are unreleased. I'm afraid it will scale poorly, like Radial Javelin. However seeing that Bastille can now strip armor as well, there could be a nice synergy between the two. Another aspect of Orbital Strike (and Bastille) that I don't like from the rework is the cast animation. Can't he just tap something in his arms or anything instead of doing a baseball pitch? 😅

Now for Ember. Personally I don't mind micromanaging meters, like Gauss or Nidus, but there are some feedback I'd like to give.

  1. I don't like how Ember should press 2 just to activate her meter. Can't it be part of her passive? If you're worried about her DR being active all the time, her 2 can be changed into a toggle-able (?) or duration-based DR that drains her meter, with an energy cost of course.
  2. As others have mentioned, right now Fire Blast has really poor synergy against the rest of her kit due to the knockback. I'd personally like if the afflicted enemies receive a (prolonged?) panic proc instead or even a blast proc instead.
  3. Regarding "Overheating". Yes, there should be a consequence for stacking up too much stack, but draining 100% of her meter will be a very grave consequence. I would personally love if Ember can "Overheat" -- if the meter reaches a certain threshold, Ember will start taking damage to her heatlh (or immolate herself and activate her current passive?), say 3% current health per second. In exchange, it will boost her power strength even further, allowing for high risk high reward gameplay that Ember promises from the beginning. You can also debuff her armor so that casting her 2 and vent heat a must to survive.
  4. Inferno is a neutral from me, would love to see its range increased though, we're kinda used to WoF's AoE 😄

I have to admit that I will miss accelerant though, any chance you guys will add it into her 3?

Also I'm curious on your approach to the current augments. Would love to see how they'll change.

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This idea was suggested already, but I think it deserves another mention. Overheating, instead of draining all your energy at once, should turn on a WoF that drains your energy very quickly (like 15 energy/s or more) but deals massive damage to enemies in range. This would make it an actual tactical choice instead of something that has to be absolutely avoided at all cost. (Because I can't think of a scenario where losing 600 energy in an instant could be beneficial or fun for anyone)

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My ideal Vauban rework would've been the following:

  • Change his Tesla grenades to sticky proxy mines that deal some scaling amount of damage.
  • Change the whole of Minelayer to a single ability, where Vauban gets to lay down deployable turrets that use enemy projectiles as ammunition, intercepting those in range before they can damage allies.
  • Keep Bastille as is with faster deployment; perhaps limit the number of prisons Vauban can deploy at a time (e.g. two or three) in exchange for removing the unit limit.
  • Change Vortex to instantly teleport enemies across a very large radius into the target point, rather than pull and hold enemies.

The general idea being that Vauban would have the tools to position enemies where he'd want to, and from there be able to control them as he wishes, or even damage them (with one specific ability), while providing utility he and his team could always benefit from. Tesla, most of Minelayer (both old and new), and Vortex's persistent pull I think are all redundant relative to Bastille's area lockdown, and Vortex in particular is always going to be a weaker Larva in its current state, which is why I think it deserves to serve a different function instead by pulling crowds into localized zones. I agree with the OP that the rework looks like it has a lot of redundancy, and while I feel it's okay for Vauban to have some decent source of ability damage, I can very much agree that Orbital Strike looks out of place. I also question how useful the armor buff will be, not simply because Bastille's CC renders it redundant against all but ability-immune enemies (and in several of those cases the prison's getting nullified anyway), but also because typically one needs a lot of armor to start getting comparable amounts of protection to the now-standard 90% DR (you need 2700 armor for that, to be precise), which DE seems to consistently underestimate. Because of this and other issues, I fear Vauban may not end up doing much beyond damage amp/Bastille spam, and may still end up struggling against higher-level enemies as a result.

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Sounds awesome. I just really don't like that she summons meteors from the sky.  Feel like it should come from the warframe, like a mortar or something similar.

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While you were building a deja vu macro for the shawzin, we were learning how to destroy nidus's larva pull as quickly as possible

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VAUBAN 2.0

While the new kit reveal is a significant improvement over the current Vauban kit... I am not the only one who thinks the 2nd ability STILL SUCKS.

Heres an idea on how it can be fixed;

Vaubans theme is that of a resourcerful engineer, someone who is ready for anything with all the tools and tricks necessary. (at least thats the vibes i get from him). So it's understandable to have his 2nd ability as a "bag of tricks" , and it is a cool idea! however it has been executed very poorly, his tricks are just useless gimmicks that a player wouldnt enjoy using.

As such i have an idea that maintaines the "bag of tricks" theme but applies a much more player friendly experience to it...

Behold Vaubans 2nd Ability, for the 3rd time?! :

...

POWER FLOW , POWER SURGE ? ... TASK-MASTER (x energy per second)

Vauban is the master of his warframe and the battlefield and can direct his resources exactly where he needs them exactly when he needs them. This ability allows Vauban to direct his warframes energy into different channeling effects which benefits himself and his allies:

Mode 1 : Shield Capacitors -  Vauban directs all power to shields! His shields recharge... 5% per second while the effect is active , allies nearby also recieve this effect.

Mode 2 : Energized Rounds - Vauban directs energy to his weapon systems providing additional IMPACT (or maybe magnetic) damage to shots, projectile weapons have increase flight speed in addition. All shots gain x amount of punch through.

Mode 3 : Thrust Module - Vauban directs energy to the actuators of his warframe. This increases Sprint speed by ..25% decaying over 2 seconds. (this ability would give him a sort of 'dashing'    functionality while allowing him to maintain control as opposed to the bounce pads

Mode 4 : Power Converter (no energy cost to use) - Vauban reverses the power conduits in his warframe and draws in energy from nearby allies casting their warframe abilities. Vauban recharges x energy per ability cast.

...

Obviously this isn't PERFECT and numbers need figuring out since i came up with it in the space of about 10 minutes.

However it gives the Vauban player that "ready for anything" feeling while having every mode feel USEFUL (thrusters are still iffy for me). I can envision using shield mode to tank a group of enemies to get a good vortex off before thrusting out and switching to energized rounds to finish them off and then switching to power conversion to recharge all the energy i just used, sounds fun to me.

Furthermore, i think that the "Quiver" needs to be reworked:

QUIVER 2.0

The quiver needs a severe rework, its such a clunky mechanic. Heres how it should work:

PRESS and HOLD to bring up the quiver wheel, move cursor/right thumb stick to select an ability.

PRESS  to cast the selected ability.

Given that the gear wheel is already in the game i can't see this being too much to ask for and would benefit Ivara alot too

 

 

Edited by NaturallySelected

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb NaturallySelected:

Mode 1 : Shield Capacitors -  Vauban directs all power to shields! His shields recharge... 5% per second while the effect is active , allies nearby also recieve this effect.

I'd add shieldgating. It whould turn it basically into a stationary Hildryn.

vor 7 Minuten schrieb NaturallySelected:

QUIVER 2.0

The quiver needs a severe rework, its such a clunky mechanic. (...)

Given that the gear wheel is already in the game i can't see this being too much to ask for and would benefit Ivara alot too

On this however, I disagree. For the gearwheel it makes sense, since most players have a lot of items in the wheel.

When it's only 3 or 4 items it's, at least for me, quicker to cycle through them instead of using the mouse.

 

Of course, that being said, I can't think of a reason not to implement both with an option to switch between the two options, just like the current Quiver has the option the switch the Tap/HOLD around.

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I'm mostly OK with the rework, but I still think he lacks a survivability ability in his 2, or instead of Orbital Strike

I know Bastille in supposed to give some DR when inside it, but with such low stats, I don't think it will matter on Vauban

I don't know if this has been mentioned in the devstream, but I hope they buff him a bit, certainly not to a Atlas Prime point, but a +25 base health and +100 armor would be nice. Especially since he lacks any overshield ability some would expect from an engineer

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Resonant_Thoughts:

The thing about the Bastille buff is that, why would we need armor when every enemy is incapacitated? Kinda of a odd choice of a buff here, unless the effect can linger for some decent time after the Bastille expire... But even then, 1000 armor is not much if we stop to think about it, Valkyr for example has 1470 armor with Steel Fiber, and she still takes some good damage from high level targets.

the same reason why Vauban is considered squishy.

Ranged Enemies.

Waaaaay back then he had the only Hard-CC against the pure Melee Infested.

No more. All factions have ranged now to shoot him from outside, Bastille has a target cap that lets enemies in.

But anyway, 1000 Armor is just a Bonus. The real killer is the CC with the Stripping.

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I think Bastille should bring pure DR à la Mesa, not armor, cause Vauban doesn't have enough base health/armor to benefit from it. At least that way you could benefit from his (basic) shield

And about Orbital Strike, instead of a grenade (although I know it's his signature tool), why don't we get a laser pointer ? In most real life and scifi, people use pointer to target a bombardment. It would be more precise (no arc throw), would allow to target at greater distance (with a cap obviously, so you don't nuke a Grineer camp from 300m in the plains), and wouldn't require the very stylish but very slowish throw animation

Press 3 : in a short animation, Vauban rapidly points with his harm (one handed ability so you can shooting, although a shoulder mounted laser à la Predator would look cool) and the strike order is immediately sent

Hold 3 : Vauban aims with his harm (or again, shoulder mounted laser), but the strike order is sent on release of 3. Advantage of holding :

- it gives time to adjust the target

- damage gets greater the longer you hold 3 (with a cap x% increase at y seconds) because you send more precise info about the strike location

Edited by Tatann
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vor 10 Stunden schrieb Resonant_Thoughts:

Bastille should have a damage buff, not a defensive one. Then they could add a defensive mine to Minelayer. The Nail Grenade should be utility based not a DPS ability, it should inflict some kinda of debuff on the enemies, radiation, disarm, that kind of stuff, it should also have a big trigger radius, so enemies don't just walk pass the mine like they do now. The Boost Pad is useless, it just shoves you in a direction, we have enough mobility in close quarters and archwings and K-Drives in open worlds, nobody is gonna use that just like Bounce, even if it gaves us a speed buff like Volt's, why would Vauban need that?

Technically, it has.

Stripping Armor increases damage, and Vaubans Passive adds 25% Damage while they are in CC.

 

Also, i disagree. DE isnt making him a DPS Frame. Saryn is a DPS Frame. Equinox is a DPS Frame. Ember is a DPS Frame.
Vauban is still a CC Frame. They just changed things we complained about.
"Why has he two CC abilities that are so similar"
"Tesla is useless and weak"
"Minelayer is useless, give us Grenades or a Turret"

Tesla could be a good change, we will see. I wonder what happens with Tesla Link then.

Minelayer is meh, but atleast it was changed to the better.
Cost reduced to 25 is good for spamming.
Tripwire that actively takes out enemies with its new "Sticky Ripline" form could be ok, as you dont have to waste 100 Energy to take a single enemy out.
Nail Grenade could be good. The build used there was a 130% Strength one, and a single Nail Grenade dealt 400dmg per hit. 25 Energy means that we can spam them. So they could be nice for Defense.
Boost Pad is still as useless as Bounce was.
Damage Amp atleast gives him some Teamplay.
Shred is no longer needed as Bastille now strips 100% Armor over time. Concuss was never needed as it was just another, inferior CC.
I really wouldnt mind if Tesla would become part of this instead of Speed Pad, and Minelayer overall becomes his new 1, making a space for a new 2.

Orbital Strike. Yes, Vauban is not a DPS Frame, but this is not a DPS Ability. There were many complains about how Weapon dependend Vauban was. The best CC is useless if you cant kill. Other, newer frames got exactly that, a way to kill with abilities. Orbital Strike solves this and still fits his theme.

Bastille is "too good"? Seriously? And giving Nail Grenade for 25 Energy the 100% Strip?
Bastille was garbage since its nerf that added the cap, and was still garbage for a long time because of random dropouts. Repelling Bastille was a bandaid fix Augment for it, and even that was still bugged for a long time with enemies running into it. Only waaaay later we got the change that it pulses the repelling, making Bastille atleast decent again, but still not good.
Look at Khora. Her Strangledome is a CC, like Bastille, that splits damage between captured enemies, multiplies damage, deals damage over time, enables friendly fire, synergizes with Whipclaw to share damage, and with augment, drops additional loot.
And you really say that BASTILLE is too strong with the Armor Stripping?! There is a reason why you take her to Excavation and not Vauban.

 

So really, im not worried at all. Vauban still stays a CC frame, but has more Offense now to actually use that CC.

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i know few games that have this weapon selection menu popup when you press and hold middle click on keyboard Mouse
2349200-dishonored_power_wheel.jpg

yea i think it might be faster to switch between mine layer/arrow types this way.
 

Edited by .OwOkin.
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So... what do you call the hot rocks she materialises under every enemy and at every point her 'bursts' of fire appeared at with the current WoF?

The ability is completely different, why not have it with different visuals?

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These are interesting ideas. Not bad.

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:
1 hour ago, NaturallySelected said:

Mode 1 : Shield Capacitors -  Vauban directs all power to shields! His shields recharge... 5% per second while the effect is active , allies nearby also recieve this effect.

I'd add shieldgating. It whould turn it basically into a stationary Hildryn.

I like this, this would a useful unique support mechanic.

1 hour ago, NaturallySelected said:

QUIVER 2.0

The quiver needs a severe rework, its such a clunky mechanic. Heres how it should work:

PRESS and HOLD to bring up the quiver wheel, move cursor/right thumb stick to select an ability.

PRESS  to cast the selected ability.

Given that the gear wheel is already in the game i can't see this being too much to ask for and would benefit Ivara alot too

I love this. I've felt the cycle abilities were clunky for a while but didn't know how to fix it. Rather than Press, Hold, Move, Press I'd suggest an alternative. I'd like Hold, move thumb stick in the direction and release to cast.

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

Of course, that being said, I can't think of a reason not to implement both with an option to switch between the two options, just like the current Quiver has the option the switch the Tap/HOLD around.

Have the option for either would definitely be nice. Side note: I actually don't know why but it feels like the tap/hold for cycle abilities isn't consistent between various frames (maybe it's just me).

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