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Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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8 hours ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

I'd take a poor man's Snow Globe. I like Frost, but I do get bored of him being my go-to defense frame all the time.

 

There is also Gara with her 4th ability (and I kinda wish Atlas's 2nd could be a Stone Ring instead of one small stone block).

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I honestly thought it was badass and it seems DE wanted to showcase some new aerial bombardment attacks considering Vauban got an orbital strike too.

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I literally had stopped playing warframe for the past couple months until I heard about these reworks. Of course I don't know how actually good it will be. I feel like every warframe needs scaling damage, some sort of armor stripping ability and some sort of damage reduction. Can we apply those changes towards something for atlas?

I think you just need to give vauban some sort of unique movement ability. Like change the zoom pad to something makes him be able to latch on walls for a longer duration than any other warframe. That would be unique and since he is a trapper warframe would sort of fit his theme. Or just make the speed boost innate on use of the ability.

Minelayer needs to be smooth in its use. I find I dont use the rotating abilities mostly because they feel super clunky. 

 

However, these changes literally have brought me back to the game. Im excited to play both frames. The fact that Vauban will be able to strip armor, and recieve armor as well as get damage boost from suspended enemies +one of his minelayer abilities + the new 3. I am hoping it can scale in a way that is still challenging.

 

I like that DE is trying to give us the ability to scale damage mixed with challenge. Seemingly there will be some effort to the rotation of abilities. 

 

Looking forward to DE finding the balance. I certainly love the abilities over the weapons so I love it when the abilities appear to be viable regardless of what weapon you have. Taking the focus off the weapons focuses on what makes Warframe unique and its the abilities. Every game has guns.

Edited by (PS4)Derweanq

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

I honestly thought it was badass and it seems DE wanted to showcase some new aerial bombardment attacks considering Vauban got an orbital strike too.

It's definitely cool.  Kinda made me sad, cause having Meteors come down from some Astronomy based Warframe would be a lot cooler.  Or some Lore of Heavens Comet of Casandora stuff.

It seems like Meteors is too good for Ember imo.

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Il y a 13 heures, Vinceant a dit :

Replace the damage with armor shredding on the nail gun.

Nail grenade has to go just like every "mine" power. Azima alternative shot is already awful, i don't see why it'd work better on a power tbh. At least Azima doesn't cost energy.

Trying to make something great out of this terrible skill is a complete waste of time. They'd better replace Vauban's 2nd entirely and gives him more mobile utility/support than (1) a terrible switch mechanics (2) powers that can basically be used to troll other players (3) not much useful & dated skills.

Edited by 000l000
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5 hours ago, LazerusKI said:

the same reason why Vauban is considered squishy.

Ranged Enemies.

Waaaaay back then he had the only Hard-CC against the pure Melee Infested.

No more. All factions have ranged now to shoot him from outside, Bastille has a target cap that lets enemies in.

But anyway, 1000 Armor is just a Bonus. The real killer is the CC with the Stripping.

Still, I would preffer that instead of a damage buff in Minelayer, we could have a damage buff for you and your allies in Bastille. Then put the defensive buff in Minelayer, that would make a lot more sense. 

Edited by Resonant_Thoughts

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Resonant_Thoughts:

Still, I would preffer that instead of a damage buff in Minelayer, we could have a damage buff for you and your allies in Bastille. Then put the defensive buff in Minelayer, that would make a lot more sense. 

Well, its a damage buff for 25 Energy for whoever picks it up and players around him.

I think that it is better than having that damage buff on a 100 Energy ability that is stationary, forcing players to stay inside bastille.

With it as a Minelayer, you can throw 4 of them, one for each player, and still be mobile.

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1 minute ago, LazerusKI said:

Well, its a damage buff for 25 Energy for whoever picks it up and players around him.

I think that it is better than having that damage buff on a 100 Energy ability that is stationary, forcing players to stay inside bastille.

With it as a Minelayer, you can throw 4 of them, one for each player, and still be mobile.

If people are not going to stay in the Bastille radius, why give them armor? People normally people stay inside the Basille, because that's where the enemies are, so here's when the DPS buff comes to play. The armor stripping is a good DPS buff, but the armor buff looks kinda pointless in Bastille, it's not a good way of give him survivability, better just put a good defensive mine in Minelayer instead of that Boost Pad, a shield or a damage reduction buff, something like that.

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So... this letter feels like it's been a long time coming, though I've never actually felt the need to write it until now, mostly due to blind luck.  As this letter is intended for DE, I will be addressing the devs directly unless otherwise stated.  But before I get into the weeds, I would like to say something upfront to my fellow Tenno: I realize that my opinion on this matter will likely be extremely unpopular.  I have no illusions about that.  Believe me--I'm used to it.  The way I think is very different and contrary to most of my species, and thus, my opinions on everything in life are typically very unpopular.  In this case, I expect that once this post is done, the community will come flying at me with blood-thirsty rage.  That's fine.  I understand.  But I really feel that this needs to be said, and I need to be heard.

DE, I want to make it very clear upfront that Warframe is one of my favorite games of all time, and you are one my favorite developers of all time.  In fact, some time ago, I wrote a now archived post explaining why I think you're one of the best devs in the business.  I'm not telling you this to try to earn brownie points with you; I'm telling you this in order for you to understand that all criticism stated in this letter is only because I love and care about the game so much, and respect and appreciate you as developers.  If I didn't, then I'd simply take a hike and find another game.  I would never bother spending hours composing such a letter on a forum for a game that's just crap, and not worth my time.

Now then, to the matter at hand.  "Goodness", you say.  A "double shot of rework goodness".  :sadcry:

So, I am adamantly, vehemently against the proposed removal of Ember's World of Fire, as I made emphatically clear in the dev workshop thread.  To reiterate, I realize and admit that I have been known to overreact to changes from time to time, and for that I apologize.  I often dread big changes, and fear that they will be the end of the world.  I've said one or two things I regret, years ago, but I've long since learned to be less reactive, more optimistic, and give myself to time to try things before getting bent out of shape.  Nearly all of the time, I find that I adjust to changes very quickly, and after a couple of days of playing, I've forgotten that anything is even different.

That is why I have been continually asking myself if I am overreacting this time, and I keep coming to the conclusion that I am not.  World on Fire has been one of my favorite abilities for the life of this game.  It is one of the most fun for me.  Ember was the very first frame I ever built, and after six years and more hours than my next top five most played games combined, I've never tired of her.  I wasn't in favor of the changes to WoF awhile back, but I adjusted to them quickly, as I usually do, and I love her all the same.  Losing WoF entirely is a crippling blow.  It is horrifying, and I am shocked and appalled that you would do something that radical.  I am more upset, angry, dismayed, and depressed over this than I can say.  I am truly sick over it.  Needless to say, I am writing this letter largely in the hopes that you might reconsider.

From what I have seen, a great many players seem to be of the mind that WoF is boring, and they typically seem to be opposed to one-dimensional specialization, and always-on, toggle, "set and forget" abilities.  You seem to be of the same mind, as reflected by the direction that warframes and their abilities have moved over the years.  That's your prerogative, of course.  And that's fine.  I'm not complaining about that, nor am I vilifying other players for their opinions.  However, I feel very strongly that it is unfair and unethical to completely remove a long established ability like WoF, which is a staple and a favorite of many (albeit probably not a majority, I'll admit).  I understand that changes and tweaks are necessary and inevitable in a game like this, and it's entirely up to you how new frames will function, but I don't think it's right to completely take away something so beloved to many of us, which has been the core of a frame for so long.  I could launch into a lengthy dissertation about why I think WoF is still great, and why I don't think Inferno will be as fun or unique, or why I cannot foresee any situation in which Inferno would be preferable over Peacemaker or Miasma, or why I'm shocked that you dumped her best ability while keeping her worst (Fireball) but I actually think that that's a little beside the point.  This is goes much deeper than Ember.

As much as I love this game (and I really, really do), I've have always lived in fear of the big reworks and changes.  As I said, most of the time they turn out fine, but I've always known that at any time, anything I love could be taken away.  As a matter of principle, I believe that it is unfair and unethical to make any changes so radical as to remove core gameplay components or drastically alter how warframes function.  As far as I can recall, until now, every change that has ever happened to this game has either been an addition, a straight-up improvement while losing nothing, or a change that, while requiring some readjustment and acclimation at first, is better in the long run, and again loses nothing.  Replacing artifacts with auras seemed like a big change, but we lost nothing.  (Most players are probably going, "The hell are artifacts?"  I'm really dating myself.)  We got the same effects.  Damage 2.0 or parkour 2.0 or melee 2.0 were big adjustments, but they were all a straight-up gain in functionality, and we lost nothing.  Replacing void keys with relics--same thing.  Every change requires a little acclimating, but everything's still there, and usually better than ever.  And, until now, all of the warframe reworks (or, at least the ones that have effected me personally), have been similar--tweaks, but always preserving the figurative "heart and soul" of the frame.  Each frame has something that makes them them--signature abilities that fans are very used to and love.  Reworks have historically made quality-of-life improvements, subtle changes, and balance tweaks without removing the signature gameplay of that frame.  Nyx has seen... I wanna say... two reworks?  But she still mind controls and chaos's enemies.  She's still Nyx.  Nova saw a major change to M. Prime, but it's still M. Prime.  I remember when Peacemaker was omnidirectional.  Good times.  I was sad to see that go, but I know it had to.  Even I admit that that was stupidly game-breaking.  But even after reworking Peacemaker, it's still Peacemaker, and Mesa is still Mesa.

This move with Ember is completely different.  I've always lived in fear of the big reworks, but I never imagined something this drastic.  I don't feel like we're getting an Ember rework.  We're losing Ember, and simply getting a different frame in her place.  The heart and soul of Ember is WoF.  Unless I'm mistaken, she's one of only two frames with an always-on toggle aoe that allows free movement and combat during use.  I love that type of ability.  It's what has made Ember one of my absolute favorites for six years.  Taking that away destroys what she is.  Perhaps Inferno will be good, but it belongs on a new frame, not on Ember.

As I said earlier, it seems that you, as well as many players, dislike and discourage one-dimensional specialization and "set and forget" abilities.  But I love them.  It doesn't mean that I want nothing else, but I love that style of gameplay with Ember.  It's your prerogative to move away from that with future abilities, but that doesn't mean it's fair or right for you to retroactively take away those abilities from long-established frames that some of us have spent a lot of time and resources upgrading because we love those abilities so much.  I realize that many players will tell me that change is the name of the game, and I have no right to complain, but I disagree.  I know change is inevitable, but I feel that I do have a right to respectfully complain when a change seems horribly unfair.

Furthermore, I believe that fans of a particular ability should take precedence over those who want the ability changed to something else.  Many players will complain about any number of frame abilities being boring or unfun.  Many players will say exactly that about WoF.  But I do not believe that those players should take priority.  Instead, players who love a given ability should be able to keep it, and new frames can be introduced to suit other tastes.  Look at this way--let's suppose that Player A loves WoF, and Player B hates it and wants it changed.  I believe it is demonstrably more unethical to change the ability.  If the ability is changed, then Player B gets their way, but Player A loses what they had and loved.  If no change is made, then Player A retains what they have, and Player B is no worse off than they already were, and moreover, new frames can be made to suit their tastes, which they can voice right here on the forums.  I believe that taking something away from Player A is clearly worse and more unethical than taking no action and leaving Player B as is.  I believe that Player A (in this case the ones who like WoF), should have the right of way.  I realize that I am biased, but that doesn't mean that necessarily mean that I'm wrong.

This whole thing fills me with terror of what else may lie around the corner.  What might you remove next?  (Part of me is afraid to say anything here because I don't want to give you any ideas.)  Is Banshee's Sound Quake on the chopping block?  That's also one of my absolute favorite abilities, and another that many players will complain about due to it's non-interactive nature.  What's next?  Will Hysteria and Peacemaker be removed one day as well?  My fellow Tenno may think that that's just crazy talk, but to that I would say--don't be so sure.  Anything is possible, and that scares me.  And that brings to another important point: just because something is old doesn't mean it's bad.  Contrary to what you seem to believe, warframes and their abilities do not need to be dramatically overhauled and reworked annually in order to stay relevant.  Small tweaks, yes, but not this--not completely changing what they do.

Most players don't share my opinions, and most seem to dislike the less interactive abilities, but I do not believe that that justifies punishing those of us who do like those abilities.  Make new frames more interactive, but don't punish those who love the abilities of the older frames, such as Ember and Banshee.  It's also important to point out that people who think that WoF (or Sound Quake for that matter) is boring are under no obligation to play that frame or use that ability(s).  There are plenty of options.  They can use another frame.  There are plenty of abilities and frames that I don't like and find boring, but I wouldn't demand that they be changed to suit my tastes.  For instance, I don't like playing Trinity.  I find her boring.  I find Blessing boring.  But I would never demand that Blessing, or anything else about her, be changed to appeal to me.  That wouldn't be fair to those people who love Blessing, and Trinity in general.  Those players' opinions should take precedence over mine, which is why I simply don't play Trinity, and choose other frames that appeal to me more.  Once again, small changes and tweaks are necessary and expected in order for older abilities to continue operating well and being useful as the game's environment evolves, but that shouldn't entail stripping away the heart and soul of a frame by removing their signature ability and radically changing their entire dynamic.

At this point, I'd like to offer a solution to please everyone.  In the words of Robin from Batman Forever... why not both?  Similar to what you did with Bastille and Vortex, how about making Ember's 4th be WoF on tap, and Inferno on hold?  Or, WoF, but when you deactivate it, it consumes the remaining energy for a meteor?  The damage of the meteor would vary with the amount of energy consumed.  That would add some strategy, as players would have to decide whether to let WoF run down, or end it early for a big nuke.  Just an idea.

I would now like to momentarily shift and speak directly to me fellow Tenno.  If you've actually managed to read this far, I'm sure that many of you are frothing at the mouth, blood boiling as you marshal your counter-arguments and reasons why I'm an idiot.  Your opinions may be very different from mine, and I respect that.  Also, I suspect that many of you may be thinking something to the effect of, "Holy s**t, dude.  How f*****g pathetic do you have to be in order to get this upset over an ability in a freaking video game?"  Well, no arguments, there.  I am indeed pathetic.  I won't go into the details of my life, as that would be highly irrelevant and tangential, but suffice it to say that it is a pitiful life indeed.  While I have some talents, I am definitely a failure, and I'm the first to admit it.  I am absolutely pathetic, but... that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm wrong.

Once again to you, DE, I suspect that you (as well as my fellow Tenno) may be thinking that it's ridiculously premature of me to be getting this bent out shape when the change hasn't even happened yet.  I haven't even tried Inferno yet.  I may end of loving it, right?  I really ought to at least try it before writing a freaking book denouncing it, right?  Well, as I think I've made clear, whether or not Inferno is good is beside the point.  It belongs either on a new frame, or bundled alongside WoF, but not instead of it.  This destroys what Ember is.  Now, unless I've missed my guess, I suspect that you're pretty dead set on this change.  I'm sure I can kiss WoF goodbye.  When you said that you're open to feedback and changes, both before and after release, I took that to mean tweaks and changes to these new abilities.  So, for instance, you might be open to tweaking how Inferno works, or changing how the Immolation gauge fills, or what it does on release, and things of that nature.  I suspect that you're not going to be open to actually reversing this decision entirely and keeping WoF.  I really hope that I'm wrong, however, and I felt that I should write this now because, if there's even the slightest chance that you might change your minds, then I figured it would be better and easier to make that decision before release, rather than put the new Ember out there and then implement some kind of damage control and reverse the change.

Please reconsider this rework.  Longtime fans of frames/abilities shouldn't be punished because others may not like them.  Please consider keeping WoF, or merging it with Inferno.  Moreover, please consider what I've said here before any radical future reworks.  I love this game, but I hate knowing that any of my beloved abilities or gameplay could disappear at any time.  If this change has to happen, then I will begrudgingly replace my Ember loadout with Equinox.  I already have Equinox Prime, but I never finished her.  I'll polarize and potato her up so I can at least retain the gameplay I love to an extent with Maim.  But then again, that just makes me fear the day when Maim might be removed as well.  If I must switch to Equinox, may I make a request?  Make an attractive deluxe skin for her that doesn't make her day form look like a Grineer Butcher?  Not only is Ember one of my favorite frames in terms of abilities, but she's also one of my favorite frames visually, and I hate the thought of letting her collect dust while I use Equinox's day form, of which I am not a fan.

If any DE employees actually read this, then I greatly appreciate it, and thank you for your time and consideration.  If any of my fellow Tenno agree with me, then I thank you for your support.  If any respectfully disagree with me, then I respect your opinion.  I expect that many of you will now come hurtling towards me like a horde of rage zombies from 28 Days Later.  That's fine.  Luckily, I am under no obligation to care what you think.

--

~Justin Case, Altara Warlord

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vor 34 Minuten schrieb Resonant_Thoughts:

If people are not going to stay in the Bastille radius, why give them armor? People normally people stay inside the Basille, because that's where the enemies are, so here's when the DPS buff comes to play. The armor stripping is a good DPS buff, but the armor buff looks kinda pointless in Bastille, it's not a good way of give him survivability, better just put a good defensive mine in Minelayer instead of that Boost Pad, a shield or a damage reduction buff, something like that.

I fully agree that Boost Pad should be replaced with something that we actually use.

But atleast for me, i rarely stay inside Bastille. I dont care about the Armor Buff, the interesting part is the Armor Stripping.
I throw my Bastille and Vortex where it is needed, not centered around myself.

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Vauban:

A lot of these changes are good, but Minelayer is where it is most lackluster.

There's 1 great ability in the reworked Minelayer (Damage Amp) and there's 2 "funny" abilities (Boost Pad, Sticky Ripline) and 1 outclassed ability (Nail Grenade).

Boost Pad is a "funny" ability because between Bullet Jumping and Operator dashes, most requirements for movement are met, thus aside from some occasional shenanigans Boost Pad will primarily be used to create a silly maze in boring Defense missions. It can thus be disregarded.

Sticky Ripline is a "funny" ability because Magus Lockdown does what it does but to everyone within 12 meters, places them in a sleep state for 4 seconds, then does 60% of their HP (scaling damage) in Puncture, costs no (Warframe) energy and can be spammed while invincible (Operator crouching.)

The need for Nail Grenade as a source of damage is prevented by the fact that it does Puncture, one of the worst damage types, and the fact that Orbital Strike is clearly better, even if it is a large AoE nuke vs continuous damage.

Any or all of the above 3 can be thrown out and replaced.

There is a major point that needs to be considered here: what can Vauban do against CC-immune enemies?

Against the increasingly-numerous CC-immune enemies, so what does Vauban have in his rework currently that can deal with them? More importantly, his main way of protecting himself is Bastille/Vortex and now the Tesla Drones (which need to be more numerous or have a huge AoE discharge.) CC-immune enemies will ignore all of the above, walk directly up to his face and he will, at that point, just die.

Vauban has no real amount of armor, no real amount of HP, and no access to damage reduction outside of Adaptation which requires he tank a hit in the first place. 2 Umbrals, Adaptation, and Arcane Guardian together do not adequately solve his problems vs 2019 enemy damage output, and Quick Thinking is notoriously unreliable, even with Pain Threshold. We do not know the armor values on standing within Bastille but I doubt it's going to be enough to solve his problems where straight-up +600 armor already fails.

Suggestion:

Give him some form of damage mitigation within Minelayer, or make Minelayer a generalized buff+debuff platform.

 

Ways to increase survivability, of varying usefulness and fairness to other frames:

DR GrenadeGive some amount of DR to yourself and allies, self-explanatory.

Armor Grenade: Give some amount of Armor to yourself and allies, self-explanatory. Not preferred in comparison to DR grenade.

+Health Grenade: Give base health to yourself and allies, overlap with Wisp's reservoirs a potential down-side.

+Healing Grenade: Give +health/sec to self and allies, doesn't help with big hits, which, in high levels, ALL hits are big hits.

Status Proc Protection Grenade: Negation Swarm on a grenade, to self and allies.

"Slap Magus Lockdown's Full Functionality Onto A Grenade" Grenade: Self-explanatory.

Decoy Grenade: Grenade that draws aggro and then dies in place of Vauban.

Mesmer Skin Grenade: Grenade will eat x instances of damage, then grenade's effect will end.

 

Without something, our boy is going to just fall flat on his face in certain environments. Make sure he has the chance to survive and succeed.

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I have some ideas to improve on the Minelayer ability that was shown on Devstream.

Change Speed Arrow mine to Anti-Grav mine. Which grants you and allies a low gravity buff, allowing more jump distance and air time, etc. This will still maintain the mobility utility while also having less risk of trolling which the speed arrow might do.

 
Let the Nail mine have decent range, around 15m perhaps, or line of sight targeting up to 20m? And deal low damage, but guarantee Impact and Puncture to stagger and weaken them, or just proc a disarm, instead of puncture. Giving a cheaper source of cc and type of damage reduction when you feel setting up a Bastille is not necessary.
 
As for Pull Lines, in addition to the current function, let the Pull Lines combine with Tesla ball drones. Pull lines can upgrade the ball drones to now fetch enemies with the hook lines, tasering them, and then drag their stunned bodies towards you or depositing them in the radius of a nearby deployed Bastille. And that opens up the enemies for follow ups from either Vauban or allies.
Edited by Xepthrichros

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12 minutes ago, LazerusKI said:

I fully agree that Boost Pad should be replaced with something that we actually use.

But atleast for me, i rarely stay inside Bastille. I dont care about the Armor Buff, the interesting part is the Armor Stripping.
I throw my Bastille and Vortex where it is needed, not centered around myself.

Yeah I see, buffs involving players to stay inside the Bastille are not that great. The armor strip is good because it doesn't matter where you are. 

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22 minutes ago, Justin_Case001 said:

Look at this way--let's suppose that Player A loves WoF, and Player B hates it and wants it changed.  I believe it is demonstrably more unethical to change the ability.  If the ability is changed, then Player B gets their way, but Player A loses what they had and loved.  If no change is made, then Player A retains what they have, and Player B is no worse off than they already were, and moreover, new frames can be made to suit their tastes, which they can voice right here on the forums.  I believe that taking something away from Player A is clearly worse and more unethical than taking no action and leaving Player B as is.  I believe that Player A (in this case the ones who like WoF), should have the right of way.  I realize that I am biased, but that doesn't mean that necessarily mean that I'm wrong.

By this metric, DE wouldn't be able to ever rework any frames.

23 minutes ago, Justin_Case001 said:

Well, as I think I've made clear, whether or not Inferno is good is beside the point.  It belongs either on a new frame, or bundled alongside WoF, but not instead of it.  This destroys what Ember is.

Ember is a fire/heat themed frame, not a single ability.  The fact that people identify Ember as a single ability, set and forget, frame is the problem that DE are addressing.

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15 minutes ago, Justin_Case001 said:

World on Fire has been one of my favorite abilities for the life of this game

WoF is one of the single worst abilities in the game design-wise, and people have been asking for it to be replaced for as long as she's had it. 

It also directly goes against DE's own intention of not having passive abilities that you set and forget. It was always a matter of time before it died in it's current form. If you were ranting about losing Accelerant that might've been different lol. I'm going to miss her being the weapon buff fire god that I use to tear through ESO, Arbitrations and Sorties, but people have been asking for her to a caster frame from the start.

The rework looks enjoyable and effective, on paper. I'd hold out for the Ember Rework feedback thread after you've tried her. Or focus your feedback on how to improve the replacement abilities to include whatever benefits you feel you're losing from WoF. If it's anything beyond the passive killing aspect of it, there's hope.

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I think the Ember rework in particular is heading into a good direction. However, I believe her 3rd ability FIRE BLAST  still needs some work done. More often than not, it's rather detrimental to knock enemies away from you. Especially in FIRE BLAST's case: As its AoE is orbital, it usually ends up scattering groups of (or grouped up) enemies all over the place, reducing your AoE-potential and your kills per [timeframe], as a result. Though, with the planned changes to Ember, I do see some synergy between FIRE BLAST and her to-be ultimate ability INFERNO. Namely, lighting up a group of enemies with INFERNO and then scattering them accross the map with FIRE BLAST to spread INFERNO to even more targets. The one issue i see with this, comes with the management of the IMMOLATION bar that her gameplay will center around. To properly make use of the aforementioned synergy, one would always want to cast INFERNO before FIRE BLAST, however, INFERNO fills up the IMMOLATION bar, while FIRE BLAST is the only  option presented, to use up a portion of it. I'm fairly certain, that there will be scenarios where one would want to lower the gauge, before casting INFERNO, to not completely fill up the IMMOLATION bar, in which case we would probably end up reducing INFERNO's effectivity (scattering enemies around you => less targets to be hit by an INFERNO cast). The alternative to lowering INFERNO's effectivity in that kind of scenario would, of course, be to have the gauge max out and losing all of your energy (or taking whatever punishment, in case this penalty is to be changed).

What I suggest, is to turn FIRE BLAST into one of those abilities, where you have the option to hold down the button for an altered effect, making the ability suck in enemies when you hold down the button and knock enemies in your vicinity away, with a tap of the button (or vice versa). That way, when the IMMOLATION bar is close to being maxed out, one would be able to go for a big combo, where one gathers up a bunch of enemies, blasts them with the ultimate ability and then tosses the enemies into all directions to have even more enemies be affected by the ultimate ability (FIRE BLAST (bar goes down) > INFERNO (bar goes up) > FIRE BLAST (bar goes down again)). When the gauge is not as close to being maxed out, one would have to choose between skipping grouping up the enemies , not tossing them into potentially even more enemies or still go for both, at the expense of the IMMOLATION bar.

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I have to disagree. Frankly speaking, World on Fire as it is is an absolutely awful ability, design wise. Even taking fun out of the equation consider what it is. It is, in effect, damage for 0 engagement. It has absolutely no gameplay attached to it. You switch it on, and it kills things for you. You suffer no repercussions, you have barely any restrictions on it in the modern energy economy. Simply put - it is the kind of ability hacks give in other games.  There's basically nothing else that can be said about it. It adds practically nothing to the game. Abilities like Maim and Soundquake are the same - they are bad design, that under the current economy of the game (effectively, most abilities don't have any real cost to use), severely damage the game and cause many of the existing problems. DE have already tried to fix World on Fire without removing its inherent nature. It didn't work, and led to the Ember we have now. WoF is the problem with Ember.

Compare to the proposed new ability. Already, it has a vulnerability - it only affects enemies ahead of you, and you seem to be animation locked whilst using it. It also puts you potentially closer to exploding and wasting all your energy which, whilst not much of a problem in the modern economy, is still at least more than a slap on the wrist. Thirdly, to maximise it, you must both risk the aforementioned punishment and draw more enemies into its effect. In other words, you must tend and spread the blaze. This adds to Ember's gameplay - effectively, to play Ember is to sustain a fire. That means two things for Ember. The first - she can no longer win games simply by being there (which admittedly she couldn't before but that was due to immense nerfing). This means that playing her is an interactive, engaging experience. The second thing is a consequence of that - since her powers now have distinct drawbacks, players must now strategise when using her. In other words - playing her is more difficult. Warframe only needs to be as difficult as it has to be to encourage gameplay, and that can start with the frame's designs themselves.

 

 

Simply put - it is perfectly ethical to replace abilities and elements that cause issues for the game, regardless of how much a portion of the audience may enjoy it. A lot of people enjoyed smoking back when that was unregulated. A lot of people were pissed when all the severe restrictions were put in place regarding it. But it was the best choice.

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To preface, I've been running Ember with a Napalm Grenades modded Secura Penta, built around using the light damage self-damage heat proc of the Napalm Grenades Penta augment (for the passive 10 energy/s regen + str buff), and Accelerant to boost the heat damage of the Corrosive/Heat Penta.

 

Passive

I like the move from setting self on fire (limited to a select few weapons/requires getting shot at by enemies) to setting enemies on fire, but I don't think there was any mention of the energy regeneration component.

Also the increase of the passive's range to affinity range (50m) as mentioned here is a great change:

Some suggestions:

  • Include energy regeneration alongside the strength buff, given how energy hungry Ember will be (if this is not already included - couldn't tell on the stream because infinite energy was turned on)
  • Have the passive decay by an amount per second (e.g. 5%) when the number of enemies on fire in range decreases, instead of dropping instantly
  • e.g. if 7 enemies are on fire (35%) and 4 of them die, the passive would decay down to 15% over 4 seconds, at 5% per second.

 

Fireball

Faster casting sounds good to me, and combined with the buffs to heat damage itself, it looks like it could do some solid damage now. A couple of suggestions:

  • Buff the base charge rate, though Immolation is noted to increase charge speed, so this might not be needed
  • Apply a heat damage multiplier debuff to enemies to replace the current Accelerant, though at a lower multiplier than Accelerant, due to the buffs/changes to heat procs, and the bonuses from Immolation

 

Immolation

I love the name chosen for this one! As for the mechanics of the ability, I am unsure. The addition of a DR skill is an absolute plus. The buffing of her other powers and the DR strength via the meter sounds good, but the punishment on overheating is (as noted on the stream) quite extreme. Ultimately this ability depends quite heavily on the numbers (How much does it buff the other abilities? Does it buff weapon heat damage as well? What is the maximum damage reduction? At what point on the meter is that damage reduction reached? How much damage does the overheat explosion deal?)

A suggestion:

  • Reduce drain to 50% of Ember's energy, 80% of the meter and reset the heat meter climb rate to base when triggering the overheat fire wave

This turns it from a full energy and DR wipe to a large reduction, while keeping the risk/reward of letting it overheat for a damage burst, or keeping the heat at bay to maintain energy and the high DR.

 

Fire Blast

The cast speed buff and armor strip are great improvements here. Not much else to say about this one, other than the knockback strength, but that'll require hands-on testing in missions across the various tilesets.

 

Inferno

METEORS! As long as the damage is good and the targeting functions well, I can't see any problems with this one, other than it being potentially visually obnoxious for allies if spammed or used with bright energy colours.

I am certainly looking forward to using this one myself!

 

Augments

  • Fireball Frenzy - This one is plenty good as is
  • Flash Accelerant - One of the only abilities that can buff cast speed (for allies), so it would be nice if this could be moved to Fire Blast

I don't have any thoughts or suggestions for Fire Fright or Firequake.

 

Heat damage changes

Stacking heat procs and melting armor is perfect!

Edited by Prof_Blocks_007

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By your logic DE would never have gotten us damage 2.0, or melee 2.0...or really upgraded any of the "long standing mechanics of the game". And as R3d pointed out...the fact you and others attribute Ember to being "She is only good/best thing about her is WoF" is exactly why DE is changing her, because no frame should be a single power, they are to fit a theme. Like how Gauss is Speed, Nezha is...Nezha, ect...

So far my only complaint about her rework is...well she lost the "fire and forget" aspect. I actually rather like the whole "Toggle power, kill everything around me" thing, the "Aura of Death" as I call it. We don't have many frames that really do this very well. Sure some do it exceptionally well in one fashion(Gara and her shield, but lacks range...) Or others that do it...well, rather slowly(Hildryn).

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Well, I do not underwrite the ethical argument, nor do I think that DE is wrong to change Ember. I do, however, use Ember a lot and almost exclusively as an augmented WoF-build. The reason for this is the practicality of WoF. A WoF-Ember excels where movement and extensive killing is needed, and at some mission types she is the best there is (captures, exterminates, the new disruption missions and especially reactant gathering missions).

But while I would like to keep WoF (and especially the current WoF), I also would like to see Ember reworked due to her 1-3 abilities (yes, they too can be meaningful, but compared to the enormous utility of WoF they lag far behind). The reason behind this is the fact that if I turn the argument around and think about why and where I don't use Ember, her drawbacks becomes quite apparent. While I love WoF, that is also all Ember is to me. Start a mission, run around a bit to pick up an energy orb (for Energy Conversion to kick in), proc a status effect (for Growing Power to kick in), cast WoF and rock'n'roll. Keeping WoF going is not a problem, so in practical terms it is an set-and-forget ability.

But Ember could be more than this, and as I see it she is trapped by WoF, as she has always been. This is her chance to free herself from that shackle, and finally truly shine. Of course, then she also has to become the fire caster extraordinaire she always could have been, which means that her ult has to do an insane amount of damage, even if it is over time as her enemies are burning up.

If her other abilities now will include melting (removing) enemy armor as well as burning away incoming enemy fire, well, that will be a lot more useful than her current abilities. What I really would like to see is a "napalm" ability (or a lava fissure version) setting the environment on fire, working the same way her new 4 will (enemies being set on fire). That would add another dimension as well, and is a completely logical ability for her to have.

If she is better the new way, I will forget WoF. Because, as you rightly point out, she will be a new Ember. If she isn't better, the missing WoF will haunt her until the next rework, a couple of years on. That really would be a shame. A lot of the older warframes are quite excellent, Ember among them, even if their excellency has partly been forgotten. It is a bit funny that the most sought after (according to the set price) has been Rhino, the simplest one of them all.

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So far my only issues are details, like the damage/rof of vauban's nail grenade, AoE of Ember's comets, also the words here don't mention the rework to fire status procs...which in the dev stream it was said that fire procs will stack and remove armor now...is that still a thing or just something that was weirdly worded in the dev stream?

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3 hours ago, S0N0FMAN said:

STOP nerf Ember

PLEASE!

New nerf - no one will play Ember
Ember my main frame

You do not speak for me, I will definitely play ember if it changes from current boring "set it and forget it" world on fire version.

Ember was my most used warframe (probably still is if you check the stats) but I stopped using ember at all when DE nerfed it a while back. Seeing these changes on the devstream and thinking about it every day afterwards just makes me want to get my hands on the rework more and more, even if no drastical changes are made to what we were shown on friday's devstream.

I've read other people's suggestions about the abilities and I have my own suggestions too but I'd like to get my hands on the "build" shown on the devstream before doing any changes just to see how it would play out. I will mention two things though, first of them being the third ability, it probably should not throw enemies too far away, just knock them down and push them a little (do not send them flying for tens of meters). The second thing I will mention is that immolation heat explosion, it should absolutely not waste ALL of the energy if the meter hits the max.

In any case, I can't wait to get my hands on these reworks.

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On 2019-10-06 at 1:39 PM, (XB1)Xebu said:

Or course, not every frame has to do high level, many can't. The beauty of Warframe is that every frame has a purpose, or a speciality, or some USP, Ember is looking to lose hers.

I disagree. 

Yes some warframes can be better at certain things than others, but pretty much every warframe can do endgame content without too much difficulty.... With the exception of the ones who need reworks. That's why they're getting reworks. 

Being a "low level" Warframe isn't much of a specialty, and it shouldn't have been a specialty to begin with. Yes she should lose that specialty, and get something better instead. 

 

P.S. And I'm not talking about what's the best weapon for trash mobs. My point is that literally anything works on trash mobs. So we definitely don't need a "low level" Warframe lol... We need a harbringer of energy and destruction, because that's what fire can do. 

If you're worried about "low levels" then just suggest making more "easy to understand" warframes, that can still function at higher levels. 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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